Olde Eynsford test at Creedmoor in Phoenix

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Today, was practice for the Amwrica's Cup match. At each yard line after getting my elevation zero I then tried a couple rounds loaded with Olde Eynsford too the same volume (close) wt was 104.2 grs vrs my standard load of 110.8 grs. Of fg express. At 800 the Eynsford required 2.5 moa less elevation, at 900-1000 the olde 1.5 required 3.5 moa less elevation. I conclusion along with Steve Rhoades who was spotting my shots was the stuff seems too shoot well.

Compression was the same as I use in Express .385 to .400. It was quite warm at 900 and 1000 and the fouling pushed easy 3 wet 2 dry for pp fouling control.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Interesting stuff isn't it?

[bigted]

so do we know what they use in the wood dept. for making their charcoal? this is all very interesting and I try to follow along as well as I can with the details of diff powder.

that is very interesting Kenny about the velocity and cleanup requirements. thanks for posting your findings.

[45bpcr]

I have not heard opinions as to how this new goex powder stacks up against Swiss.
It's only $6.00 a pound less.

45bpcr

[Lead pot]

I have been using it since it came out last year about this time and I used up 7 cans short of three cases last year. If a powder outperformed the Olde Eynsford I would use that powder for the matches I shoot. I'm not slamming any other powder and I think I have worked with all that I know is sold here except Wano. I don't know how that powder performs. 2F KIK is a close second to the OE for my loads.

[45bpcr]

I'm just asking because Swiss has always worked well for me, and it's what I've been using for many years.
But, being a cheap,err, frugal Scotsman, I'm always interested in alternatives.
And, if it's made in the USA, all the better!
45bpcr

[Don McDowell]

There have been numerous mentions of OE v Swiss in the past year, the vast majority have said they prefer OE over Swiss.

[John Boy]

so do we know what they use in the wood dept. for making their charcoal?
Ted, don't know if they changed the wood for Olde E but they have historically used subcontracted maple

[Nobade]

They sure changed something, this old E is nothing like normal Goex.

-Nobade

[John Boy]

Nobade, here's the reasons - the grain sieve ratio comparisons:

Here is the new Goex Olde E' 1.5Fg compared to Swiss. As you can see, to generate higher velocities - they 'juiced' the grade up with smaller mesh grains sizes:

Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed
Notice the percentages between Swiss & Olde E for the 20 mesh and no 50 mesh in Swiss.

And the same 'juiced up' grain ratios for Olde E' FFg
Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace

Regular Goex FFg
20 mesh - 79.2% retained
30 mesh - 20.8% retained

Goex Express FFg– (02/17/05DE12B)
12 mesh – Trace retained
14 mesh – 0.35% retained
20 mesh – 89.59% retained
30 mesh – 9.47% retained
40 mesh – 0.22% retained
Through – 0.37%

And the same 'juiced up' grain ratios for Olde E' FFFg
Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

Regular Goex FFFg
3Fg, regular production.
20 mesh - trace retained
30 mesh - 70.8% retained
40 mesh - 26.2% retained
Thru - 3.0%

Certified laboratory screen sieves DON"T LIE!

Somewhere I also read that they are polishing Olde E longer to compact the potassium nitrate harder into the grains. Swiss polishes for 24hrs and Goex for their other grades polishes for only 12 hours

My conclusion based on the sieve tests of all Olde E' grades: Except for the possible longer polishing time ... Hogdon just had Goex at Minden 'juice up' the grades of powder

[Don McDowell]

Always makes me giggle with all this bullcrap about "juiced up" Goex said plainly clearly and always that they use the same screen size as Swiss, now somehow or other that's juicing up? Good grief....
Goex has all new machinery, new powder masters, and the whole thing has changed. Hogdon's invested a ton of money in this operation.
Eynsford is good powder, it costs less than Swiss and will in many examples out perform Swiss in all the categories from accuracy, to velocity to fouling control, and it does so at 8 bucks a lb less.
Anybody that hasn't actually done some serious shooting tests with the stuff owes it to themselves to do an honest shooting evaluation.

[.22-10-45]

How does Eynsford compare to Swiss as far as fouling in bore? This new Goex interests me alot! I gave up on Goex back in the early 80"s because of hard fouling..got back into black few years back..now using Swiss 1 1/2 & 3FG. using in original Rem. rolling block .40-70 Mid-Range & original Ballard No. 3 .25-25 Stevens. With the little .25-25, it needs 1 barely damp patch thru after each shot for match accuracy. The .40-70 only needs blow-tube.

[Don McDowell]

Eynsford fouling is much softer and lighter than Swiss.

[John Boy]

Don, let's look at the sieve ratio comparisons between Swiss & Olde E' - one more time:

Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed

Swiss FFg (250.504)
20 mesh - 76.16% retained
30 mesh - 23.50% retained
Through - 0.34%

Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace

Swiss FFFg (270.409
20 mesh - Trace
30 mesh - 87.2% Hold
40 mesh - 12.8% Hold
50 mesh - Trace

Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed


Eynsford is good powder, it costs less than Swiss and will in many examples out perform Swiss in all the categories from accuracy, to velocity to fouling control Concur and the foul is more moist than Swiss IMO


Always makes me giggle with all this bullcrap about "juiced up" Goex said plainly clearly and always that they use the same screen size as Swiss
Don, Olde E' has been 'juiced up' by adding finer grains in the mix compared to Swiss ... that will increase velocity.

Certified laboratory screen sieve ratios DON"T LIE!

'Goex said' ... actually who at Hodgdon said they use the same screen size as Swiss? Would like to know the name of that person so I can send the above screen ratio comparisons to him.


Goex has all new machinery, new powder masters, and the whole thing has changed. Hogdon's invested a ton of money in this operation.
Your correct that Hodgdon has spent a ton of money at Minden, 2011 and 2012.
Another explosion at Camp Minden
Today's blast is at least the seventh at Goex since it moved to the site in mid-1997
... http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20121113/NEWS01/121113009/Another-explosion-Camp-Minden

New powder masters? Are you sure of this?
March 2012 ... Hodgdon fired an entire night shift of men and left only one employee with less than 5 years and made him the shift manager. Plus the plant manager and person who tested the powders on his range- both who had long term knowledge how to make powder and identify the firearm results of testing

[Lead pot]

Some people sock the powder some screen it.
When goex discontinued the Express powder I went on a search for a new powder to take it's place. The first batch of 2Fg KIK I got in the metal cans gave me a bunch of vertical and high SD's. I even tried fireworks powder.
I used Swiss for a while because I did not like the early lot of KIK but I did not like the swiss because of the fouling and I had to patch the bore between shots especially during a match when the barrel starts to get hot. The bore felt like it had sand in it when I pushed a damp patch through. Then KIK's new lot came out and I did a lot of load development shooting and I stopped using swiss and changed to KIK. The fouling was a lot easier to control and it had good accuracy.
When the OE came out last spring I ordered a split case and again the testing started but I found right away that this stuff shot very good. I shot some groups right off the batt that I have very seldom shot before and the repeatability was a high percent, but I had some doubt if this was a real black powder or some more substitute that Hodgdon came up with passing it for black powder because of the lack of black powder order when cleaning the brass and the light and soft fouling.

Well back to screening :) when all of this powder testing was over :) I dumped all of the different powders I had some was ok and some down right bad and I blended those extra cans in a 5 gallon bucket 1,1.5,2,and 3Fg and use it here at home shooting 200 and 130 yards just for trigger time and all that blended powder will bust bowling pins in good shape at 200 yards. I don't worry about fines in my powder.

[Don McDowell]

John you need to put your bullspit dislike of Goex away. You either shoot the stuff and do a real test about it or shut up. Screen sieving doesn't tell you one darn thing about how the powder shoots. Nobody was happy about what happened to the Goex people when Hogdons took over, but the powder they are making today is far and away better than anything that has carried the label since it was known as Gearhart Owen, that it isn't even funny.
I remember when you didn't like KIK you were on the Bill Knight hate anything attached to Goex phase ... Now KIK according to you is the greatest powder ever... Well I like KIK as well(despite your trashing it while I was working with it ) and spent much time shooting and testing it. But it only took a bit over 1 can of Eynsford to figure out which powder will get the nod when it comes time to shoot the best groups..
So put your damn window screens back where they belong, load some cartridges and get to the range, and then get back to us on the Eynsford..If you keep an open mind about the stuff, your KIK will be setting on the shelf in reserve, just like other folks' cases of KIK.

[MikeT]

Does Olde E make a 1Fg grade powder?
Anybody try it?

Thanks,
MikeT

[Don McDowell]

Mike I don't believe they've done a 1f, only 1.5,2 and 3.

[.22-10-45]

Wondering if Olde E. is moist burning in ctg. arms? Thanks.

[powderburnerr]

they do not make 1F according to the distributor . .22-10-45 most all the testing above has been with ctg,rifles is that what you mean? I do not find hard fouling in my rifles if that is what you are asking,

[Don McDowell]

OE hydrates very well. The fouling is minimal and soft. So soft that it is possible to shoot into the high 90's at 200 with paper patched loads (no lube cookie) and a blowtube for fouling control.

[.22-10-45]

The reason I was asking..back in the mid 1970's, after powder explosion at Dupont? plant, black was near impossible to get. Hodgdon imported Curtis & Harvey made in Scotland. I was shooting a Thompson Center Seneca .36 using patch round ball & 25gr. 3Fg. It seemed I could fire 8 to 10 rounds without cleaning..and fouling was very soft and moist. Too bad we can't get powder like this anymore. I am going to have to try some of this Olde E. I have been using Swiss 1 1/2 in a Rem. Mid-Range .40-70 and 3FG in a Ballard No.3 in .25-25 Stevens. I can get match accuracy with just blow tube in the .40-70, but in the .25, I need 1 barely damp patch after each shot. Softer fouling might help in the .25.

[13Echo]

If the powder is burning that moist it would seem they have found a way to incorporate more natural creosote in the powder. The Mad Monk did a lot of research on BP and found that to be the critical element in the "moist" burning powders. The amount of creosote is dependent on the source of charcoal and how it is processed. Perhaps they have a source of natural creosote to add during production since charcoal derived from mature maple is not noted to be particularly rich in creosote. Natural creosote used to be a pharmaceutical agent derived from distillation of, i believe, beech wood.

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

They have changed the way they refine the charcoal,something about air filtration.
Also if one stops to think a little bit, Hogdon's now own enough of the old line powder companies that they most likely have access to just about every powder recipe ever available. So it's not inconceivable that they have applied modern processing abilities with one of those recipes, and came up with a powder the equal or better than any black powder that's ever been available.
It's a good powder and deserves an honest trial by blackpowder shooters.

[13Echo]

Well it is very encouraging that they are producing what appears to be a superior powder. I was really concerned that it might go the other way.

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

Yes it is a superior powder, I mean honestly when you can shoot 42 rounds of paper patch ammo with nothing more than a blowtube for fouling control, and go 50% or better hits on the complete Quigley targets, come down to the last 8 rounds and 2 shooters hit 3 of their 4 shots on the bucket (350 yds) shooting offhand, still only using the blowtube for fouling control, this ain't your average bp we're dealing with.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I know myself and Steve Rhoades were impressed with it at 800-900-1000 yards.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny I'm looking forward to your further tests with the stuff. It's shown some very consistant numbers over the chronograph from my 44-77.