Cracked case necks [Archive]

Northboy

03-12-2014, 03:12 PM

Looking for thougths, opinions, experience.

I sized some 7mm-08 from 308 win. I figured that small a change I didn't need to anneal so I just full length sized. Now that some have been shot I'm finding cracked, some severely cracked case necks. Do I need to anneal these before sizing?? This is stil new ground for me so any info or experiences would br great, but please if your just going to rip on me save it.

jonas302

03-12-2014, 03:46 PM

Yes I would recommend annealing first its easy to do plenty of info around on different ways when I did that conversion I annealed first didn't know the history of the 308 brass either so it made sense to anneal them I tossed a few after forming no cracks but some looked a little funny after 3 firings no cracks have appeared I'm thinking I will anneal again at 4 or 5 firings just have to see how it goes

mac60

03-12-2014, 05:38 PM

I made 100 7mm08 from some 7.62 brass. I didn't anneal during the forming, but after reading this I will before I fire any of them. After making a dummy round to see how they chambered I realized I had a problem. The necks were too thick. I had to outside turn the necks.

wallenba

03-12-2014, 05:59 PM

I guess it comes down to the brass. I convert 30-30 Winchester to 7-30 Waters without annealing and all is fine. I think now I will begin annealing after the first firing instead of the second though. I may have just been lucky with the Hornady cases.

flashhole

03-12-2014, 08:45 PM

Yep, learned that lesson a long time ago. Re-form a case, first step is anneal it.

GRUMPA

03-12-2014, 08:49 PM

Very few cases that I convert get annealed first, that I do after they get formed. Reason being is if I get a split neck or a bad case I want it to go bad under stress while I'm forming it. Kinda like not all brass is equal so the weak case or bad case I want to be the one that fails first during the forming.

Then when all is formed and inspected then it gets annealed.

Northboy

03-12-2014, 09:58 PM

I guess I know what I need to do. Now I just have to decide what method I want to use.

Thanks guys I really appretiate the info.

Walter Laich

03-12-2014, 10:02 PM

I find annealing reduces my cases splits quit a bit.
YMMV

TheDoctor

03-13-2014, 09:53 AM

When I first started loading for rifle, it was for a 7mm-08. Brass was hard to find. 308 was not plentiful, but 243 was all over the place. Started trying to expand them using a standard RCBS expander ball, and would split 20% of them just necking up. RCBS sent me a tapered expander, and that worked much better, case loss down to less than 5%. Did not know anything about annealing at that time, so I figure I actually did OK. Had I have known, and did it properly, I am confident that my loss would have been less. Live and learn.

dragon813gt

03-13-2014, 10:01 PM

I would anneal after case forming for the reasons Grumpa stated. Brass work hardens. So you want to soften it before shooting it. If you do it before forming you are just going to work harden it again. I just started annealing to see if it extends case life for me.

220swiftfn

03-14-2014, 12:33 AM

GRUMPA

03-14-2014, 08:53 AM

Sometime within the last two years, there was an article in Handloader about caseforming for something like the .22 Jet (IIRC, CRS) Anyhow, there were SEVERAL annealings during the process, with a final anneal afterwards. Then again, it was taking a .357 case down to .22........

Dan

Sometimes I have to stop and think about some of the articles that come out. Not saying anything bad about things that get published but I do have a tendency to look the other way and do things myself a bit different. I make the 22 Rem Jet cases from 357mag, those I anneal first and do all the forming with the RCBS case forming dies.

Sometimes things can be done differently and I use my homemade swage lube when I make those. After all the work is done on those from forming to trimming, the final stage is to anneal them 1 last time.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?226479-22-Rem-Jet

Something like the 221 Fireball for example. Those if you anneal first from 223 brass, it makes matters worse for me. The forming of the shoulder I do in 2 steps (don't ask) and if you anneal those first the angle of the shoulder looks more like a radius than an angle. If a person were to anneal for the 221 Fireball first the brass actually gets to soft. And when I form those without annealing I do get neck splits after I ream them and run the expander ball thru the case. The way I view it is that under stress the cases are just weaker than I want it to be. That's OK by me actually because I want brass that'll last and be problem free when I get done. Annealing on those are the last thing I do.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209326-221-Fireball-Brass

I haven't even tried making 7mm-08 yet although it has peeked my curiosity a bit, but right now I have to many irons in the fire. That's something for later on after I figure out my hydroforming for the Rem cases I'm currently figuring out.

flashhole

03-14-2014, 04:39 PM

I re-form 223 to 221 and always anneal first. I get less yield if I don't anneal. I like the long neck beer bottle look of the brass running it through the RCBS form and trim die.

220swiftfn

03-15-2014, 02:26 AM

Sometimes I have to stop and think about some of the articles that come out. Not saying anything bad about things that get published but I do have a tendency to look the other way and do things myself a bit different. I make the 22 Rem Jet cases from 357mag, those I anneal first and do all the forming with the RCBS case forming dies.

Sometimes things can be done differently and I use my homemade swage lube when I make those. After all the work is done on those from forming to trimming, the final stage is to anneal them 1 last time.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?226479-22-Rem-Jet

Something like the 221 Fireball for example. Those if you anneal first from 223 brass, it makes matters worse for me. The forming of the shoulder I do in 2 steps (don't ask) and if you anneal those first the angle of the shoulder looks more like a radius than an angle. If a person were to anneal for the 221 Fireball first the brass actually gets to soft. And when I form those without annealing I do get neck splits after I ream them and run the expander ball thru the case. The way I view it is that under stress the cases are just weaker than I want it to be. That's OK by me actually because I want brass that'll last and be problem free when I get done. Annealing on those are the last thing I do.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209326-221-Fireball-Brass

I haven't even tried making 7mm-08 yet although it has peeked my curiosity a bit, but right now I have to many irons in the fire. That's something for later on after I figure out my hydroforming for the Rem cases I'm currently figuring out.

Agreed, sometimes the case needs to be in a work-hardened state to withstand what you're trying to do to it (mostly when I run into that, I get crumpled cases at the body/shoulder junction, or a neck that telescopes into the body...) The only thing I see as a possible issue going from .308 to 7mm-08 is thick necks, the physical reforming itself should be pretty much straight forward...

Dan

jmorris

03-16-2014, 01:03 AM

Shiloh

03-16-2014, 09:43 AM

I anneal my cases when the necks get "Springy". There is Krag brass and '06 brass that has counless loads through them, and the neck splitting has ceased.

Shiloh

Northboy

03-20-2014, 10:00 PM

So if I understand correctly I should anneal after sizeing in this case.

GRUMPA

03-20-2014, 10:35 PM

In this case I would, but remember this.....this advise is for this conversion only. Sometimes (not always) it's best to anneal first, not often but sometimes. Right off the top of my head out of the numerous conversions I do, I anneal the Jet and 256 Win Mag first.

flashhole

03-21-2014, 03:01 PM

If the neck starts to fold in on itself you need to anneal the case before re-sizing. You will know what I mean the first time you see it.

TNsailorman

03-21-2014, 03:40 PM

I always annealed the last step of the forming process. This past week I reformed 152 .270 Winchester commercial cases into 8x57 cases. I annealed the first step this time to see what would happen. I have been forming 8x57 cases for years and have only lost a few during the neck up process. This time I lost 51 cases out of the 152 during the neck up process. I used the same dies as before and the only change in steps was the order of annealing. I don't say that this is conclusive evidence but I am going back to my old sequence of annealing the last step. james

Smoke4320

03-21-2014, 03:48 PM

seeing that I don't do any of the major conversions like grumpa I would always anneal last step.. IE just before loading

dragon813gt

03-21-2014, 05:19 PM

This time I lost 51 cases out of the 152 during the neck up process.
Can I ask why you didn't try a small batch first? That loss is way to heavy for my liking.

TNsailorman

03-22-2014, 10:24 AM

I don't have patience sometimes and I rush in "where angels fear to tread" (so to speak). Anyway, once I fired up the propane, I just kept going until all the cases were annealed. Not real smart but I dood it. Once I realized what was happening, it was too late to turn back, the cases were already annealed and were splitting the necks. I did try three different sets of 8x57 dies to see if one would do better than the others but no go. I did stop after about 6 of the first ten split, and go to an intermediate step of necking up to .30 before going up to .32. That slowed the splitting down some but did not stop it completely. Many of the cases were splitting at the junction of the neck and the shoulder. The splits would be very small and about equally distance all the way around the case. I may send my expander button to C-H and have them nitride coat it and see if that helps.