.44-40...How rough and still shoot?

[Ragnarok]

How bad can a .44-40 Winchester bore and still shoot ok?

I'm going to look at a couple Winchester 92's...One a rifle that's probably serviceable..the other a carbine that the owner reports the bore is pretty poor.

The gun's owner tells me he had checked on having the carbine's barrel re-lined..and the gunsmith had told him carbine barrels were too thin to be bored-out and re-lined...izzat true??

This guy also has an older Rossi M92 .44-40 pre-safety that's new in the box...what might that be worth?

Thanx..Rag

[rintinglen]

A bore can be pretty rough and still shoot pretty well. I have an old Iver Johnson cattleman that was used in the Wild West Shows they used to have out at Knottsberry Farm. I dare say you can find sewer pipes that have smoother bores,yet it still shoots reasonably well--3-4 inches at 15 yards.
I question the statement about liners. My friend, the late John Blansfield, had a couple done, though I'm not sure of the calibers. Scroll down the page a mite to the Gunsmithing and special projects. Somewheres down there is a pretty good pictorial on the relining process. Better still, send John Taylor an inquiry. He has an excellent reputation and numerous members here have vouched for his work.
New Rossi's run right around 500 bucks, give or take a double-sawbuck or two. I'd offer less,say 425, simply because of the relatively odd-ball caliber. I've not seen 44-40 brass 4 sale in a good long while. Some get all bent out shape over the safeties, but to me, it's not something to get too excited about.

[Bob Busetti]

I had a 92 with a bad barrel. I took a chance and cleaned the barrel using Sweets 7.62 bore cleaner. Copper & other junk kept coming out till I final had a clean bore, of course the pits didn't go away. Gun shot much better after that. Blame it on the old jacketed ammo from days of old. Continued firing of old ammo with out getting out the old fouling made the barrel look like a sewer pipe. How ever I took a chance on it & won, not so lucky on others.
Bob

[Doc_Stihl]

I have an original Marlin 1895 chambered in 45/70 that made in 1906 if I recall correctly. The barrel is VERY bad. There's isn't a spot in the entire length that isn't badly pitted. But there's still rifling. The barrel was cropped by Bubba many years ago and didn't do a good job even for a kitchen table smith.
That rifle shoots fine. I routinely shoot out to 200 yards. I've shot plenty of 2" groups at 100 yards with it.

[missionary5155]

9940599406Greetings
The present Winchester 1892 44 WCF I use regular (bottom carbine) was made in 1909. The bore is pitted here and there. Worse is that the muzzle was badly "wollered" out to the point a loaded round would enter the muzzle... Brass case and all.
This SRC would not keep .434 diameter bullets in a 12 inch circle at 25 yards. IT had already been badly buffed and reblued so no collectors value. Stocks badly cracked and missing wood.
Cleaned the barrel out. Looked OK. But the muzzle required the removal of 1 inch to get back to a .430 bore which is what the rest of the barrel is.
Throat is a .435 and pitted. .434 is the fattest boolit I can seat.
So with a range scrap boolit from a Saeco 220 grain mold at .434 with 8 grains Unique this SRC will shoot a few shades over 3 inches at 70 yards. That is minute of LLama. Also minute of Viscacha... a rock marmot.
So a really bad ugly bore can be made to shoot. If I was dealing with a collector SRC I would not have cut the barrel... I would not have bought it at all in our country. But down here and already heavily buffed and reblued.. I knew I could make it shoot OK.
Mike in Peru

[Ragnarok]

Well?...I picked up two out of the three Model 92's my friend was interested in ridding himself of.

As soon as I hit his door he told me the Rossi carbine wasn't 'new in box'...Used no box. Has a dent in mag-tube needs worked-out. A few dings in wood. Otherwise really decent with remarkably pretty wood! Best wood I've ever seen on a Brazilian. Definitely an older version of the Rossi M92 SRC. Front sight blade is pinned onto front band..action and buttstock shaped closer to an original Winchester than my few years old Stainless .44 mag M92.

The 'original' Winchester 92 SRC was as rough as he told me and really much rougher..had mechanical problems inside and action would lock-up and not close..hammer would follow bolt home after I shook it around like a baby-rattle and convinced it to close..I would need a couple/three paragraphs to describe everything wrong with it..RUFF-RUFF! Parts gun at best.

The Model 92 rifle on the other-hand was just an old honest well-used battered used and abused early twentieth century hunting rifle...more or less intact and probably serviceable. It's worst features being a puckered magazine tube and a forearm crack about 7-8 inches long right on the bottom. Good action and remarkably clean and shiny bore for the age(either 1907 or 1909..depending on serial chart used)

I bought the Rossi M92 SRC and also the genuine Winchester M1892 rifle..and my brother has a bid in on the Winchester clunker-carbine. So yeh..I bought two .44-40's today. Both guns with some serious potential...but both in need of some tube-magazine repair. project guns I didn't tie a lot of money up in.

I cleaned the bores and wiped the Winchester and clone down out in my man-cave a bit ago. Loaded some ammo in the rifles...and got the mag-follower stuck big-time in the Rossi!...Jammed tight where the tube ding is. let gravity feed the shells and unloaded it. Had to remove the tube cap(tricky with a way compressed spring!)..knocked the follower loose with a wood dowel rod and a tap-hammer. Not too bad a ding but it will have to be fixed....

The rifle's mag-tube has had it's damage peckered out in crude fashion. I loaded it up...and had to gravity-feed the ammo back out as it's follower stuck too!..However it wasn't so stuck as the Rossi..and I bounced it off my knee a couple times and got it's follower to pop loose.

[Outpost75]

If there is enough rifling that a tight patch rotates in the bore and you can measure the twist, it will shoot if bullets fit.

I would not pass up any '92 in sound mechanical condition with a bad bore, because relining brings them back to life again and is affordable.

It takes a skilled eye to detect that the barrel was relined, all the original markings and patina remain intact.

I am VERY happy with the relining John Taylor did for me. He has done lots of work for me even though he is clear across the country from me and there are 'smiths who are closer... Consider that a recommendation.

[Ragnarok]

The genuine Winchester carbine was essentially 'boreless'...plus not mechanicaly sound...plus a hodge-podge of model 94 wood...plus had an odd hole drilled in receiver at an angle(like maybe for a wood screw to hold the 94 front-wood in place)...it is just parts. The fellow had a .44-40 Model 94 barrel new in the white for the project...and I think my brother may wheedle the friend out of it. Will still need the receiver hole welded-up...Not worthy of my time

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Sounds like you did well. The 44 WCF is a very useful caliber and they feed easily in the 92 action. Be aware your carbines will have a drastic dislike for OACL when you exceed that carbines limits. The mag dents are easily removed by using a deep socket that snug fits the inside of the tube. A good dose of lube on the socket and a long enough extension (wood or steel) and tap it down through. Check the mag tube inside for rust also. All the 92's I have seen have filthy, rusty, crum filled tubes, springs and followers.
The rifle in my photo (top) is a 44 WCF also (1896). It has the second best bore of the 92's I have seen here. It shoots the Saeco 220 grain sized to .431 with 8 gr Unique to 3 inches at 100 yards from cross sticks. It has just a little muzzle wear.
Do not overlook shooting 3F in the Winchester. I am hard pressed to come up with smokeless loads that equal 3F. I also cast with range lead (mine) for my 44's. At rifle velocity it opens very wide. A mix of 50-50 would make a dandy up close hunting boolit.
Keep us updated on your endevors and a photo would be great for key watering here in this desert.
Mike in Peru

[KirkD]

I have had a couple original Model 1873's chambered in 44 WCF (44-40) that had just awful bores. One had a two inch section just forward of the chamber that looked like someone had roto-rootered out all the rifling and then poured acid in there. Both had barely discernible rifling and were badly pitted. With soft cast lead bullets over some 2400 and with a half sheet of single ply toilet paper loosely rolled and folded and inserted into the case to act as a flexible gas check, I was able to get 5-shot groups at 100 yards around 4" consistently with a soft case, plain base bullet.

[LeftyDon]

See if you can find a 1/4 drive socket the correct size to just fit into the mag. tube and use a couple of socket extensions to to push it through the tube a few times. Ding with come out.

[Ragnarok]

See if you can find a 1/4 drive socket the correct size to just fit into the mag. tube and use a couple of socket extensions to to push it through the tube a few times. Ding with come out.

I got this very same advice in our very own gunsmithing forum this morning. Have 'tube repair' topic down there with that and some other good advice!

I discovered that a Mac chrome 10mm deep 1/4"-drive socket fit nice and snug in the Rossi carbine tube. Stuffed the socket through the tube with some penetrating oil lube..and certainly much reduced the Rossi's tube damage! Follower sticking not a problem now and whats left of the tube-ding isn't an eyesore(or all that noticeable really).

The Rossi is serviceable now more or less. It feeds pretty rough(but feeds)...Nowhere near as smooth-working as my three or four year old Rossi stainless .44 mag carbine(or my new ancient Winchester 92 rifle)! Looks like the cartridge rims are catching on the ejector as the carrier tries to lift. I can see it's going to need some 'cowboy action tuning'...

I'm going a little slower with the cool old Winchester...Help the mag-tube a bit and fix the busted forearm...I got it apart..and the mag-tube cap was rusted in place and tube full of dirt and crud! Rest of the gun's internals are clean..

[Ragnarok]

Dredge this past topic back up...I'm out of 'project guns'...and the ruff Winchester SRC carbine in the original post is still available to me...

Anyhow...how much would you pay for a 'parts' Winchester M92 carbine?

Brief description...internally is probably missing the pin that holds the lever to the bolt..has a hammer/trigger problem(bad sear on hammer maybe)...wrong/make-shift wood...hole drilled in receiver(hard to describe..but wouldn't affect function and could be welded-up)...rotten bore, however comes with a new in the white .44-40 M94 carbine barrel...missing rear barrel band...can't remember what it has for sights but think it has the originals, which may not be suitable for the new barrel...will never be a collectors item..but may be salvageable for a shooter.


I figure to satisfy me will need some new wood and a butt-plate..hole welded in receiver..plus some small parts replaced/acquired/repaired to get it functional. That not coping with the bad bore..which I figure as mentioned above..shoot and see how it does...then decide to either stuff the new barrel on it or do what-ever to get it shooting...maybe $300 worth of wood and parts..no professional gunsmith labor calculated for that task...

[cajun shooter]

Ragnarok, I have owned over 5 of the Rossi 92's and the early guns are great rifles. The problems start showing up in the later rifles that were imported. They started making the guns in Brazil in the late 60's early 70's. The guns had the correct bore diameter of .427 and the first ones in carbine form had a front sight that was part of the barrel band and could not be changed. The next models had a pinned front sight and it was possible to change this out. You should have a metal follower in that mag tube, the later models went to a yellow plastic that gives a load of problems. Do yourself a favor and scrub the heck out of that magazine tube as they are always found with years of crud in them. For some reason, owners always clean the barrel if they are good gun people but they never clean the magazine or clean the follower.
As the production carried on in Brazil, Rossi kept churning out 92's on the same equipment that they started with. They never did any updates on the equipment and as time went on, the guns started having parts out of the correct range of accepted tolerances. The results were guns with very large bores and parts so rough that they were hard to cycle.

As far as the price on the Rossi guns, they can't be compared with what Taurus is selling under the Braztech name. It's not the same gun anymore.

They had certain companies that purchased guns from Rossi and had their name on the rifle. The first guns were imported by Interarms out of Alexander, Va. Later came the Navy, Puma, LSI, EMF rifles. I probably left out someone but my mind is not as good as it once was.
The Navy models had American Walnut stocks and a great deep blue that was as good as the original Winchesters.
The first Interarms had a dark finish which was almost black out of some Brazilian wood. The guns with the American Walnut are worth more than the standard guns. I've seen these selling for $700.
If you need parts, you can contact M&M Gunsmithing in Alabama. The owner is Mike and he was the head gunsmith on the 92's for Interarms in Va. He was located in Alexander, Va. for many years until recently relocating to Alabama. I think it's in Greenville but I'll have to check on that. It's listed on the web. His number is 571-276-7676
Best of luck David

[Ragnarok]

Oh! I'm sorry...I got my Rossi carbine working good. I own a couple of these and luv-em

I'm talking about a Winchester Model 1892 .44-40 carbine that's in desperate need of repairs or scrapping-out..or make a wall-hanger..

[veeman]

I've been shooting my Rossi 92 SRlessC for 20 years and have never ever had a problem. I did have an action job done immediately when I bought it. It is a tack driver with .428s and just about any powder thrown in it. I refinished the stocks a few years ago, they were near black, and added a straight shotgun buttpad for a bit more LOP. Love it, been my main CAS shooter for 20 years.

[TXGunNut]

I figure to satisfy me will need some new wood and a butt-plate..hole welded in receiver..plus some small parts replaced/acquired/repaired to get it functional. That not coping with the bad bore..which I figure as mentioned above..shoot and see how it does...then decide to either stuff the new barrel on it or do what-ever to get it shooting...maybe $300 worth of wood and parts..no professional gunsmith labor calculated for that task...Ragnarok


Sounds like it would be well worth the risk, especially with the new barrel for "Plan B" if the original barrel doesn't work out. Since as you pointed out there is no collector value you might as well make a solid shooter out of it. If you like it you can always save up and make it pretty with new wood and finish on the metal parts. If all else fails it should be worth $300 to the next guy that wants to give it a try.

[Ragnarok]

I got the carbine and spare barrel for $300...and it is plenty ruff.


The barrel has been shortened to about 1/4" ahead of the original front sight(about 3/4" gone..probably was rotten)..the mag-tube has been shortened and I'm thinking it's off something else too. Mag-tube cap isn't Winchester I don't think.....has several extra 'grooves' on both the barrel bottom and mag-tube top where previous owns had attempted to fit the bands cross-screw to retain the tube('cause it no longer has the long tube-plug screw to retain the tube)...


The old 92 is missing the ejector collar bushing piece...the firing-pin is broke in half...missing the hammer-spring tension screw from the lower tang..the lower tang looks to be from a different gun by condition of it(could be original too)...I think the hammer sear cuts are ok but the top of the trigger will need stoned-out...otherwise the main action parts look fine and there..


The wood is a mix of a couple different generations of M94...the buttstock is off an older M94 with an alloy buttplate and appears to be old enough that it fit unmolested on the 1906 vintage M1892 action. The forearm is in really decent shape..probably a newer(post 64) forearm..and it doesn't fit bad at all. I may reuse the forearm..or may not. I will likely buy a carbine style replacment stock and buttplate


The bore/barrel is a real piece of work!! Shortened...possibly been bent and straightened..tool marks on the exterior you can see traces of in the bore itself...not to mention well rotted and about 100% pitted(bad pitted)..though it does have rifling throughout


It has crossed my mind to cut the barrel down to 18"..this getting rid of some of the exterior tooling that shows in the bore(and so that I would have enough magazine tube to make a full length tube)...just trying the old bore and barrel...If I have to buy a new mag-tube the new barrel definitely goes on the gun 'cause I ain't going to shorten a brand-new mag-tube to fit this crappy barrel!


The new barrel is a fully marked Winchester M94 .44-40 barrel with front sight base and rear sight dovetail..fully chambered in the white..beautiful barrel. I wonder what the odds are it would index right up??...I figure probably won't without a trip to the gunsmith though.


Not quite sure what the plan will be for this project?...I may try it as a 18" 'trapper' with the original barrel/bore/mag-tube...see what it is for a shooter. If it won't work/shoot well enough...always have the new M94 barrel and just have it fitted.. and will just buy a tube for the 20" barrel.