reloading for M91/30 need advice

[chaplaincolby]

Back in November I posted seeking advice for reloading for my 1943 M91/30 and got some great advice. Treekiller was even kind enough to send me some bullets to try. Well the weather finally turned nice enough to get out to the range. Results are mixed and overall disappointing. The disappointing part is accuracy isn't even on the map, only 4 rounds out of 15 even made it onto the paper of a SR-1 target at 100 yards. So here are the technical's

bullet is a cast 314299 out of a Noe mold furnished by Treekiller. He miked them at .315 my caliper measured them at .316.
bullet weight is 209 grains
gas check aluminum
Groove diameter of rifle is .3165 by my caliper
Bore diameter is .305
brass is once fired PPU
Primer is Winchester Large Rifle
powder is IMR 4227
charge is 25 grains (load and powder is from Lyman cast bullet guide)
lube is homemade Darr's lube 50/50 paraffin and Vaseline
COL is 2.987"
I used Lee dies with the .312 303 neck expander
cases were flared with a taper punch to .317
charges were weighed on a beam scale
necks were crimped with the lee crimp die that came with the set
gas checks were crimped by the crimp die

Here is the good,
all cartridges fed and fired perfect
lube must be good because I could only find minor leading at the crown
recoil was reduced

Here is the bad,
accuracy is horrible, even factory PPU ammo wouldn't hit the paper. (I know I'm not the best marksman but today on the same range I was able to get 1 in groups and 4 x's with my Marlin 795 and bulk 22 ammo at 100 yds.)
recoil although reduced from factory is still substantial

Here are my questions;

1) could there be a problem with the gun since even factory ammo won't group?
2) could bullets just be too small?
3) would changing the powder charge up or down help? (I know a good load needs to be worked up, but I need to get them on the paper first, so a direction of where to go would help)
4) any other suggestions?

[tomme boy]

Back that powder down to 19.0 and work up to where you are at now. If you can find any 4895, start at 26 grs and work to 30. You will find something that will work in that range. Or 15-18grs of 2400 if you have any.

If this does not help, you will have to have a custom mold made. Your #'s do seem large for a Mosin.

[WineMan]

Mosins tend to be very accurate, given their humble status. With the factory jacketed ammo and the sights at their lowest setting, you are probably zeroed for 300 yards. Start closer, aim at a point and measure the distance above (most likely) or below it. With the cast load, 25 grains of Imr/H 4227 is pretty hot, try 18 grains. Try a fatter bullet more like 316-317 or a softer alloy as fatter may not fit the chamber. A 312 neck is going to squeeze the bullet, larger is better. You will get there, just get your confidence up by getting on a closer target, say 25 yards? BTW the triggers usually suck, so read up on shimming them (not too much though).

Dave

[ukrifleman]

Check the condition of the crown, any wear will cause inaccuracy. Also, make sure all the action screws are tight, otherwise you will be chasing accuracy until the cows come home.
ukrifleman.

[badbob454]

clean clean clean your barrel , inspect it for pitting , minor pitting isnt a problem , get the copper out , ... then back down the powder as wine man suggested ... also a fatter bullet may be needed ,(diameter ) ... aim lower until you can find them on paper , or start at 50-75 yards

[StratsMan]

As WineMan said, reduce your starting charge... And personally, I always look for the pattern at 25 yds so I know what's gonna happen out farther... (don't need a spotting scope, either...) If you can't get a pattern with .310-.311 jacketed bullet, then this barrel is going to need special attention...

[chaplaincolby]

As usual thanks for the ideas guys. :o Although this old gun has been cleaned many times in the last 2 years, I have cleaned more, this time with "wipe out patch out" and gotten a lot of copper out. Yes, the groves are pitted, I knew that already, but the lands are strong and sharp. I believe the crown is good, but I will have the gunsmith at my LGS take a look at it. As soon as I can I will load up some rounds at 18 grains of the IMR 4227 and see how they do. I started at the 25 grains because it split the difference between the starting load of 21 and max load of 31 in the lyman manual. I chose 4227 because it was one of several listed by Lyman and the LGS actually had it in stock. We all know what it is like to find powder right now. I will try to start at 25 yds next time, but if the range is busy like it was the other day I have to stay at 100, because range rules require the shooter to move toward the berm to get closer, no targets between the target boards at the berm and the benches allowed. So to move closer means I pretty much have to have the range to myself.

[petroid]

All my MNs shoot 6-9" high with factory loads or mil surp with iron sights. Try aiming at bottom of target to assess grouping. With the cast boolits I agree that the load is probably too hot and you should try some 2400 or red dot at 12-18 grains.

[Scotty]

All my MNs shoot 6-9" high with factory loads or mil surp with iron sights. Try aiming at bottom of target to assess grouping. With the cast boolits I agree that the load is probably too hot and you should try some 2400 or red dot at 12-18 grains.

Shooting with the bayonet on?

[jonk]

I think your troubles are very very simple, and am surprised no one has said so yet.

Bullets measure .315-6ish, depending on whose calipers.
Grooves slug .3165.

I'd wager there's your problem right there. You try a .317-8 bullet, odds are good, issues go away, both with accuracy and the minor leading.

[tomme boy]

Said that in my post about getting a custom mold made. They will sometimes still shoot good at a slightly reduced diameter. Depending on alloy it may bump up and seal the bore.

[jonk]

The other thought is, I kind of am nervous about your lube. I am iffy about ANY lube with parrafin or vaseline in it (or any other petroleum base) as I've had the experience of it getting kind of tarry on me in the past. Seemed to work well with handguns though, when I tried it. I won't say that's your issue, just that it's something to watch if you go bigger on the mold.

Look in the stickies for beagling. That's where I'd start; open up the mold a bit and size a bit larger, and see where things sit.

[nicholst55]

You might want to consider paper patching some boolits up large enough to fill that generous size bore. Either that, or try sizing some nominal 8mm boolits (.323") down to fit.

[chaplaincolby]

I have considered sizing down an 8mm since it may be easier to hone out a Lee sizing die than beagle or hone a mold, and my bank account doesn't allow for a custom mold. :) Have any of you tried sizing a .323 down to a .318? How did it work for you?

[petroid]

Shooting with the bayonet on?

With the bayonet on the poi changes either left or right but still shoots high. I understand these were zeroed with bayonets attached for 300m which explains the high poi at closer ranges.

[Larry Gibson]

I have considered sizing down an 8mm since it may be easier to hone out a Lee sizing die than beagle or hone a mold, and my bank account doesn't allow for a custom mold. :) Have any of you tried sizing a .323 down to a .318? How did it work for you?

The 323470 is an excellent choice for this. I size, GC and lube at .325 and then push through .314, .316 & .318 sizers for whatever size is correct.

Larry Gibson

[HARRYMPOPE]

I shoot an Ideal 323378 sized to .316(one push in a .316 Lee type die already lubed with GC in a .323 sizer) and run it nose down in a .308 die to taper the front end a bit.The bullet really grows longer when sized but shoots well.

[chaplaincolby]

Thanks again guys for the great advice