Getting .311 boolits in 30-30 Handi-rifle

[blixen]

I finally ran down a .30 WCF Handi-Rifle. It's a Harrington Richardson 058, which, from what I understand, means it's not eligible for the barrel program. It's kind of an odd-ball—stubbed 18-inch barrel and MagnaPorting done by a competent gunsmith.

My problem now is loading CBs for it. From research on this site and Graybeard's, consensus is that the rifling in the Handi prefers .311 boolits. I loaded some test .311s in Lee mold 175 grain and 165 grains, but had trouble chambering them--seems the Handi has a tight throat. But .309s chamber nicely. Both boolits' noses are a very tight fit in the muzzle.

I haven't slugged the barrel yet because this seems to be a throat issue and I don't have any pure lead slugs.

Thus, my immediate options seem to be: 1. Try the .309s for accuracy--who knows? 2. Open my .309 Lee sizing die to .310 and hope the boolits chamber and produce good accuracy. 3. Polish the chamber area to open it a bit.

30-30 Handi riflemen out there: Is there a trick/option I'm missing?

I'd like to have some boolits loaded to test my options next weekend. I'll post some photos when I get a chance.

[Outpost75]

The ordinary SAAMI .30-30 chamber has no "throat" per se, only a 15 degrees Basic (per side) forcing cone, which departs directly from the outer diameter of the case mouth portion of the chamber, with no cylindrical ball seat at all. If you can borrow a .30 cal. throating reamer, it could be turned carefully by hand, to provide a short cylindrical section of about 1/16" or so, to accept the front driving band of a seated out bullet, and it would also give you a more gradual forcing cone angle. All you need to do is "kiss" the rifling origin a bit, it doesn't take much.

[tacklebury]

The newer H&R's are looser in the throat. Yours is an 058, so was pre-1970? Probably, depending on when, could have been as early as 1957 I believe. Anyway, my 058 barrel has been reamed to .30-40 Krag now, because it has a better neck for cast anyway and a bit more powder capacity. I'm using .309's currently, but have mostly been shooting j-words so far. I don't have my own .30 cal molds yet, and I'm shooting some test bullets first to see what it seems to like. ;) Shooting the .309's cannot hurt anything and if it's that tight, it should be good. ;)

[Doc Highwall]

Did you remove the case mouth flair? I have a Browning 1885 in 30-30 and if I don't remove the case mouth flair I have trouble chambering rounds. I do not crimp for single shot rifles.

[blixen]

Did you remove the case mouth flair? I have a Browning 1885 in 30-30 and if I don't remove the case mouth flair I have trouble chambering rounds. I do not crimp for single shot rifles.

I know what you mean about the flare--I remove it, but don't crimp. I full-length size in a 30-30 die, then I use a Brit. .303 button to open the 30-30 necks, then flare slighty to get the .311 boolits in w/o shaving.

About 1 in 4 .311 boolits will chamber--then I need a rod to knock them back out. That's using new Winchester brass and seating all the bands.

All the .309s slide right in.

[texassako]

Turn the necks on some of the brass maybe? I do it on a different caliber rifle to get a cast bullet to fit a tight chamber. It would at least tell you if a .311 will shoot without altering the rifle.

[Doc Highwall]

Have you tried a .310" bullet? Having more then one just one diameter of sizing dies will allow you to experiment not only with this 30 caliber rifle but also others you might acquire. For 30 caliber I have .3100", .3105", and .3110" sizing dies.

[dtknowles]

When I was casting for my model 94 I sized to .308, did not know better at the time. I knew the Lyman handbook said to size 0.001 over groove dia. but I was a kid and was shooting 0.308 jacketed so I did the same with cast. I actually did not have any issues, no leading and accuracy was fine, these were with gas checks. I did shoot the same bullets in my .30-30 handi rifle actually a SB-2/Topper hybrid with out issues.

I think you should be alright with 0.309 bullets. I tried by SKS bullets in the .30-30, plain base 130 gr. sized to .311 they shot fine too. Shoot what you got that works and if you have problems then work them out. The neck turning brass would be a good choice if you already have the equipment.

Tim

[Mk42gunner]

Blixen,

It has been a few years since I worked with my H&R Model 158 s/n AY532xxx; but as I recall it easily swallows .311" boolits, maybe even .313". I don't remember where, but some place on the web you can find a s/n-date chart.

When I was actively shooting boolits with it, the only suitable molds I had were a couple of .32 pistol molds and the Lee 312185. I may need to try again this summer...

Robert

[FLHTC]

Measure a fired case from the handi and see what the neck size is, then measure your loaded rounds. As already mentioned, 309 might serve you just fine. I size to 311 in a Savage 340 and I get a very stiff bolt close but it shoots beautifully. I was thinking about going to 309 but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[blixen]

Thanks, guys.
My Handi is a 058, serial begins with AY, which puts it in the 1980s, I think.
I resized one of my .311 boolits through the .311 die and found to my surprise that it made a big difference (do boolits "grow" when they sit for a while? Either that or I mismarked some .313-.314 boolits).

Anyway, these .311s seem to chamber better. But I need to try a few more before I conclude anything. I plan on shooting .309s and .311s to get some idea. I will also examine the once-fire case necks. I might mark the bases for consistent chambering so I can try neck sizing in the Handi.

[Catshooter]

SHOOT IT! You can guess what might work in any given firearm, but it's a waste of time. It's only results that count.

My 38-55 Winchester 94 has a .3795 bore. My Lyman 375449 mould drops 'em at .379, just barely. They shouldn't work. They should lead, be in-accurate, blah,blah,blah. Zero leading after +500 rounds of 1800 fps loads and will shoot into three inches at 150 yards.

You have no need to wait for pure lead to slug your bore. While I wouldn't want to use linotype most anything else will work just fine. I oil mine and drive 'em down the bore.


Cat

[madsenshooter]

My dad had one of those early 058s, the rim was a tad too big, rim seat a tad too small, however you want to look at it, that's where the hang up was with it. May or may not contribute to your problem. I could load them, get no marks on the bullet or caseneck, but it wouldn't eject them without a little prod with a rod. Left a mark on the rim I finally noticed, above the ejector. Mr. Dremel fixed it for me. And yes, some alloys do grow as they age. And, springback varies with alloy, a hard alloy goes through a .311 die and might come out closer to .312, another softer alloy goes through and comes out closer to .310. Keep your calipers or mic handy and see for yourself.

[leftiye]

Yours isn't an H&R barrel as you described it as stubbed. Better slug it. Probly chamber cast it too. Usually a superior approach in all cases.

[Gtek]

Does a boolit slip into a fired case? Is the rule not fired minus .002"? 30 WCF thin to start with but a light neck turning of all for clean up and making consistent pull without crimping and may solve all. Gtek

[Old Dawg]

The advice to size boolits .001 over groove has been around so long it has become an article of faith. Personally I believe it should say at least .001 over.

[blixen]

SHOOT IT!
Cat

Shot it. Mainly checking to see how it functions. It didn't want to group with .309 boolits. 5-6 inch groups at 100. 165 gr. flat nose Lee over 7 grains Green dot and 14 gr. 4759.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/dadujyty.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/ypatejyd.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/yguna4e6.jpg
Did better with .311s, about 3 inches at 50, but I only had a handful until I cast again. (173 gr. .311 over 14 grains of SR4759.)

[barrabruce]

The Remington cases I have seen to be the thinner then Winchester
UMC thicker and highland the thickest .
The nose section contact on the chamber end seems more important to good accuracy than the muzzle.


My 158 topper has a long neck and is 314 followed by 312 to the forcing cone. Bore is 3018 and groove 3085

I did get better accuracy with a nose rider which just rubbed the top of the lands 302?? and seated to front as far as possible with a 309 dia section. With 50/50 ww pb and a dash of lino aircooled. firm but malleable.
17/1800 fps with adi 2206h
The longer 170's were easiest to get to shoot than the 150's longer steering section I believe.
Do yourself a favour and make a pound slug .

At least you will know what you are "actually" working with if nothing else besides groping around in the dark.

I only partially neck size my cases as a sloppy fully length sized case is only putting more run out into the system than a case with little or no slop.

I only partially full length size after my cases get that well formed that they don't extract.
With those loads you'd probably wouldn't have to worry about sizing for quite a while maybe up to 50 rds a case.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[blixen]

Tnx, B-Bruce ,
Great info. Slugged the barrel, .308.
The nose of my Lee 173 gr. .311 "Enfield" boolit has to be tapped in the muzzle, for what it's worth.
Boolit slides tightly into fired case, if I bell the mouth.

[barrabruce]

Well you could try a bit of darcon over the powder and if you eject a case the powder won't go everywhere if the bullet sticks.
A light tap with the cleaning rod will eject it.
After a while the range officers got used to me breach seating bullets and would allow me to shoot me last round off.

I'd try and see if I could get the nose all the way in the chamber.

But I think you will find it wanting if you have to use that much force.

The 165 gr rn lee should fit better if that's what you got.

I dunno but I had to shim the barrel to the action on mine and used a bit of silicone around the breach end and around the forend screw to make mine shoot. I made a sort of piller ..well used a bit of copper pipe to stop the forend screw digging into the wood and only just tighten the screw up with the silicone bedding. the rest is free floating.
A trigger job makes the thing pleasant to shoot.
I had to make a new firing pin and made it protrude out 46 thou If I remember.

Ohhhh the handi rifles sort of ugly and funky but they tend to grow on you.

Every one thinks my gun has a real short barrel at 20 " 'cos its short as a lever carbine and of course it won't shoot.

The bullets will just bounce off things past 75 yrds using lead and the 30-30 ain't up to the task nowadays if you could actually hit anything with one.

I think I could be persuaded to take it off your hands if you payed the postage and the balance to be worked out to how much you would need to make sure the dreaded thing doesn't return back on your door step to haunt you again after thorough testing.

Always ready to help people out.
Barra

Ohh yeah check the scope rail and screws. I used some plastic steel and Loctite to refix mine to the barrel cos they shot loose and things went all over the place. Just one of the querks.

[blixen]

I think I could be persuaded to take it off your hands if you payed the postage and the balance to be worked out to how much you would need to make sure the dreaded thing doesn't return back on your door step to haunt you again after thorough testing.

Always ready to help people out.
Barra

Ohh yeah check the scope rail and screws. I used some plastic steel and Loctite to refix mine to the barrel cos they shot loose and things went all over the place. Just one of the querks.
Ha.ha. Thanks, but ill wrassel with it a bit longer, before I give in. I'm going to lock the scope down real good and go after it again this weekend. Try some J words, even. I like this rifle!

[blixen]

Thanks for the advice and info. I tried the Handi with some .311 173 grain Lee "enfield" boolits. At 50 yards I got a decent 2" group that clustered even tighter. I'll be working up some Red/Green dot loads at 1/2 grain increments.

[A pause for the COZ]

I recommend you try a load of 15.5 gr of 2400.
With what ever cast bullet you like. I think you will like the results.
As soon as I tried that load I quit looking. All my 30-30's shoot it now.

[mikeym1a]

Just reading the OP, I suggest you slug the bore, to see what your barrel wants. Remember, =.001 over groove size. Then make a chamber cast to see what that looks right, and see what your chamber wants. then move from there. Good luck.