Single Shot rifles and floating barrels

[BCRider]

So much emphasis is placed on the advantages of floating the barrel and in some rifles to ensuring a fairly clear airflow around the barrel for even heating and cooling that I wonder how much a single shot rifle could gain from this same feature.

The sort of format I'm thinking about would have a single spine tang or perhaps dual side tangs extending forward from the receiver and the fore stock would mount to these tangs instead of the barrel. Thus the supportive forces are extended back into the metal of the receiver body. This would allow for the idea of a fully free floated barrel.

Thoughts?

[Hiwall55]

HMM. think Browning BPCR.

[uscra112]

Most single shots, if you don't let the forearm touch the frame, do for all intents and purposes have floating barrels. Flat spring Winchesters and Ruger's kludges excepted.

And if you are firing a single shot fast enough to heat the barrel, why ain't you using a repeater to begin with?

[BCRider]

The issue with the fore stocks mounted to the barrels isn't just the contact or non contact with the receiver. My own experience has been that my shots vary even based on where I support the barrel. So while providing a slight gap between the receiver and the wood might aid things I would suggest that it's still a big leap between having the fore stock attached and a fully free floated barrel. No?

And even a fairly slow measured pace heats up the barrel. On my Encore I ran into barrel heat drift until I pillar bedded the fore stock and cut a cooling air slot in the fore stock. And I was only firing about one round a minute. Meanwhile with my rolling block used in SASS side matches I typically have to get anywhere from 10 to 12 rounds off in lickety split time.

I'm going to set up a Winchester 94 for this sort of work as well. But I LIKE my single shot rifles so I like the idea of working up to the task even on these timed events.

Not that I'm about to start welding tangs onto the receiver of my 1876 rolling block. But it got me thinking about the future of single shot rifles and why we see primarily bolt action rifles in pretty much all events where ultimate accuracy is the goal. It seems to me that a falling block or rolling block style action should be every bit up to the job. But perhaps we are hamstrung by the lack of ability to fully and properly free float the barrel.

Oh, I got this idea of thinking from a thread over on THR where a guy was asking about how well Ruger #1's compare for accuracy to a Remington 700. But it sort of applies to all single shot non bolt style actions to generic bolt actions I felt. I just think it would be pretty slick to see a modern rendition of a non bolt action single shot that can hold its own with the bolt guns.

[BCRider]

Aha! I just learned that the Ruger #1 uses a bracket to mount the fore stock so that technically a fully floating barrel is possible. But it seems that the mainspring is located in a channel of that bracket as well which apparently raises it's own issues.

[uscra112]

Well, why not follow the Maynard paradigm then, and not have any fore stock at all? Wear a welder's glove if the heat gets to you.

[country gent]

It can be done and on the Ruger No 1s is a free floated barrel. But with a hanger rail the rail is still atached to the barrel so ifs not really floated at that point. Some have tried orings around forend screws between forend and barrel to relieve stresses and lessen pressure points. As stated above forend bearing on reciever face can really affect accuracy. Silicone sealant can be used to make a softer rubber go between on the barrel forend. I have seen alot of 2 piece stocks that were really affected by pressure on the front rest sandbags. The english used a shooting post and held the rifles with back of hand supported on the padded posts top. This kept shooting forces the same as hunting position shooting of the rifles. It also allowed for better control of heavy recoiling rifles

[Doc Highwall]

Part of the problem with actions like a single shot is they have two piece stocks and have a lot less bedding area then a bolt action. Like using special bedding fixes like pillars for bolt action receivers to keep bolt torque constant, single shot receivers and the way the butt stock and forend attach have a large influence on how the gun shoots.

I would recommend reading some of Frank de Haas books that directly address these problems and the final out come of his studying single shot rifles is the Miller- de Haas rifle. Frank has since died but was known as "Mr Single Shot" and who knows what he would have to say about it today if he were still alive.

[Gunlaker]

BCRider you might want to ask on the ASSRA web forums. There are a number of schuetzen benchrest guys that have done this.

Chris.

[texassako]

You might want to take a look at the BSA International MKIII. It is a rimfire, but they did manage to free float the barrel over a pretty long forearm. Basically a large bracket down the middle of the forearm attached well into the receiver to support the weight.

[BCRider]

Thanks Gunlaker. I suspected I wasn't the first one.

Guys, I'm not looking to buy or modify a rifle for this. It's simply a "what if" sort of discussion.

Uscra112, I think you might still be missing the point of the idea. Or perhaps you think I'm fussing over something that you feel is insignificant in the grand scheme? It wouldn't help to remove the fore stock altogether since I'd still have contact of some sort with the barrel. The idea here is to have the barrel hang from the receiver with no contact in much the same way as so many typical bolt action rifles these days.

Texassako, I looked up the Mk III and that's exactly what I was thinking about. But WOW! That's a long and I'd suspect fragile rail! Still it would do the job and that's the point. And I'd guess that the Schutzen rifles that Gunlaker mentioned would use something similar.

I sort of figured that I wasn't the first to come up with the idea. I guess I'm just a little surprised and disappointed that so much of the high accuracy shooting seen these days seems to be based around bolt action designs. Wouldn't it be nice to see some big class F artillery piece that uses a Martini action or something of the sort?

[357Mag]

99177991789917999180BC -

Howdy !

While not a " single-shot " action, I DO shoot my M-336 XLR .35Rem single-shot only.

What I did that greatly aided the gun's accuracy, was make a " cast in-place " combo " barrel block / bi-pod mount ".

My thought was: lock the magazine tube to the barrel, while also removing bi-pod upward forces from being principally applied to the fwd sling swivel stud.
Results met & exceeded my accuracy expectations.

I used casting resin to pour the " barrel block ", into a mold I had fashioned out of 2ea gas line anti-freeze bottles (
empty ).
Were I to do it again, I'd pour clear 2-part epoxy for the next one.

I am considering $$$ a new CVA single-shot in .35Rem, and would cast the block right around that gun's barrel; too.

Note: 100 yd 5-shot group pics show 2 errant shots, that resulted form me reading the windflag wrong !


With regards,
357Mag

[uscra112]

Schuetzen rifles never, to my knowledge, tried hanging the forearm from a bracket, free of the barrel. A few shooters have tried modern Schuetzen with Rugers, but AFIK they don't win much. None of the top ASSRA shooters use a "floated barrel" as far as I am aware. Palm rests, which were pretty much de riguer, were and are usually attached directly to the barrels.

Free floating bolt action barrels, from all that I have read, has two main drivers: One, it's a lot easier than determining the nodes on the barrel and stocking to dampen the vibration, and Two, wood stocks tended to warp and move the zero if there was contact forward of the action and maybe the first few inches of the barrel.

I have also read that the forearm bridgework of the Ruger is one of its' downfalls, since it's another cantilevered beam that has its' own vibration modes to add to the vibration of the barrel, making the whole system far more complex than a plain Stevens or coil-spring Winchester.

All guns with separate buttstocks have a hinge in the middle - the joint between action and buttstock. A while ago - ('50s or '60s if I remember right) there was a short-lived fad for fabricating a one-piece stock that looked like a bolt-action stock, but with the Winchester action bedded in it. The idea was to eliminate that hinge. Apparently it didn't make the old sows' ear into a silk purse, since I haven't even read of another one since. Probably the lack of adequate bedding area in the falling-block action designs made it impossible to keep the action stable in the stock.

The one thing we Stevens cranks do that improves our single-shots significantly is to install a buttstock through-bolt, imitating the old Ballard, the Sharps Borchardt, and most shotguns. Putting some tension across that interface stiffens the stock-to-action joint and improves groups. Nothing dramatic, but it never hurts.

[texassako]

There have also been attempts to tune the pressure exerted on the barrel by 2 piece stocks. I have a rather interesting mechanism on a rifle meant to do that designed by Al Freeland. You can see it in the pic under the scope. You were supposed to use a special battery powered light(that I don't have) to set it properly with the screw in studs just touching the barrel. I have not messed with it.

99650

[uscra112]

Electric Bedding ! Yup - I have old American Rifleman magazines with ads for that. It was pretty popular for a while. But the whole .22 belly-shooter game dried up after WW2, and so did the market for electric bedding gadgetry. Freeland was a great innovator, though. I have a Freeland mount for my Argus spotting scope which I would not part with for anything.

Looks like you have it on a Martini? That I never have seen - always thought it would be limited to bolt guns with one-piece stocks. The contacts were underneath on those.

[mikeym1a]

Palm rests were attached to the barrel? The pictures I have seen of them looked like they were attached to the forward part of the action, which would allow the barrel to 'free float', with no pressure on the barrel which might change the point of impact. I know very little of these styles of firearms, although I have long admired them.

[uscra112]

Yep, to the barrel. Sometimes to the forearm, which is screwed to the barrel. Palm rest is always close to the balance point of the rifle, which means rarely is the rest more than 4-5 inches out from the face of the action.

Keep in mind that Schuetzen rifles shoot pretty mild charges. The muzzle velocity was around 1450 fps. Still true today, even when using smokeless powders, since the rules do not allow gas checks. And these guys shoot 3" groups at 200 yards, offhand. Sometimes a lot better than that. There can't be much wrong with what they are doing.

Here's a good shot where you can see the mount under the forearm. Forearm is closely fitted to the barrel, always with at least .005 clearance from the face of the frame. Then (in this case) the palm rest mount is screwed to the bottom of the forearm. The rifle is a Stevens Model 44 1/2, which has nothing attached to the from of the action but the barrel. I have several, but none so nice as this one.

99651

[mikeym1a]

That is very interesting. It's always nice to learn something new. But then, there's a lot I don't know. Thanks for the explanation.

[mikeym1a]

On reflection, the 4-5 inches from the action makes sense. I just got an old Comblain rifle, and the balance point is about 5 inches in from of the action (falling block). I find it perfectly balanced for me. Interesting.

[texassako]

Looks like you have it on a Martini? That I never have seen - always thought it would be limited to bolt guns with one-piece stocks. The contacts were underneath on those.

Yes, it was on the BSA Int'l Mk II in my avatar when I got it.

[johnson1942]

seperation of forestock from the reciever is a must or you get vertical stringing. how about makeing your own forarm like i did. route it for 5 inches to your barrel size and the rest to a size bigger. attach it with one screw about 2 and 1/2 inches frome reciever. make sure their is about a 1/16 inch gap between stock and reciever. i uses this method on my custom sidelock muzzle loaders. they dont have a ramrod under them and are semi english style. they only are bolted a few inches from the back into a bedded solid stock. the rest of the barrel floats. same thing for a single shot. barrels like to be floated. also im glad for the mention of rubber silicone as a bedding. it can work wonders. i bedded my sons savage .270 with rubber silicone on his synthetic stock as one of the things to make it more accurate. it is a tackdriver consistantly. rubber silicone takes a lot of the vibration out of the barrel. it quites it down very fast. his rifle looks like a bubba tactical sniper rifle but can it ever shoot. 14 years old and 6 deer with it. floating barrels and rubber silicone, figure out how to do it. it works.

[uscra112]

Silicones. That makes sense to me. From my past life in the auto industry I know that there were (are) silicones specifically formulated for use as a sound dampening material. We used one as an impact absorber in a conveyor system. It was actually a silicone foam. Don't remember details. Don't do bolt-guns anymore, so no real chance to try it.....

[johnson1942]

where i got the idea for silicone rubber was i was getting a pail of paint mixed on the vibrator at the paint store one day and they put the pail into the vibrator and wrapped a big wide rubber band around it. that kept it from vibrating apart as the rubber band took out the extra unneeded vibrations. i thought why not a rifle barrel and im glad to see here others thought the same. also i read a article about putting six inches of rubber o rings on the front part of a rifle barrel to quiet it down. i did that also on my sons .270. also with a new trigger and recrowning it to a 79 and 1/2 degree crown and hand reloads it keeps about a 2 and 1/2 group at 300 yards. i hand load a light 90 grain bullet and push it 3200 ft per sec. it is good for prairie dogs and deer. i believe any rifle has the potential for extreem accracy if they are tweeked right. rubber is one way to do it.

[FLHTC]

Its all in harmonics. Get your barrel to vibrate the same amount for every shot and you have yourself a beanfield rifle.

[Clay M]

Ruger #1's need fore end tip pressure to shoot their best. Just how much is the trick. They come from the factory with fore end tip pressure.

[FLHTC]

Ruger #1's need fore end tip pressure to shoot their best. Just how much is the trick. They come from the factory with fore end tip pressure.

A humid day will change that pressure as will a dry day. I never saw a #1 that would hang with a bolt gun.

[Clay M]

A humid day will change that pressure as will a dry day. I never saw a #1 that would hang with a bolt gun.

This is true.They can be tricky guns. I do have good luck with my .45/70 and .405 win, but my .204 Ruger is one that moves around a lot.

[FLHTC]

This is true.They can be tricky guns. I do have good luck with my .45/70 and .405 win, but my .204 Ruger is one that moves around a lot.

I have an Encore in 204 that will shoot with a synthetic stock but put a wooden stock on it and you'll want to wrap it around a tree from frustration.

[Clay M]

I very much like the .204 Ruger. It is a great little round. The frustrating thing about my Ruger #1 is that somedays it will shoot tiny groups and other days with the same load it won't .It is inconsistent.It has a laminated stock so it really shouldn't move.

[uscra112]

Krags and the K31 Swiss rifles, too. I floated the barrel of my K31, and had to go back and add some bedding at the muzzle to get to shoot again. That's how the Swiss military armorers did it for competition rifles. Floating the barrel simplifies the system, but doesn't necessarily improve it. If you can find the vibration nodes of the barrel, (there is a good deal of folklore about how to do this, but piezo accelerometers and electronics do it better), you can place the contact points with the stock such that they dampen the vibration.

Vibration damping using an elastomer is usually done by sandwiching the elastomer between the vibrating article and another article having some mass. The elastomer must be one that absorbs energy without rebounding. Luxury cars long used sheets of rubberized horsehair with a thin sheet of lead bonded to it, to absorb vibration in sheet metal panels. I managed the building of many large machinery foundations when I was still working, where ambient vibration had to be kept away form the machine. We used concrete and layers of elastomer or rubberized felt.

[FLHTC]

I very much like the .204 Ruger. It is a great little round. The frustrating thing about my Ruger #1 is that somedays it will shoot tiny groups and other days with the same load it won't .It is inconsistent.It has a laminated stock so it really shouldn't move.

Don't be fooled by a laminated stock. The surface swells a considerable amount but you won't experience any twisting.

[johnson1942]

sonic stress reliveing the barrel can really improve the harmonics and second to that is cryotreating the barrels. rubber felt now that is a interesting concept. this is a very informative post.

[Clay M]

Don't be fooled by a laminated stock. The surface swells a considerable amount but you won't experience any twisting.

I think I will glass the tip next,and see if that helps.

[uscra112]

sonic stress reliveing the barrel can really improve the harmonics and second to that is cryotreating the barrels. rubber felt now that is a interesting concept. this is a very informative post.

I'd be skeptical of any claim that stress relief changes harmonics. The modulus of elasticity remains the same. It does help a barrel that warps as it warms, though.

[uscra112]

I think I will glass the tip next,and see if that helps.

Before you glass, just insert some bits of business card in the targeted location, and see what that does. If it helps, maybe that's the place to try the silicone.

[johnson1942]

your probably right and made me think back on its use in the past. on the guns that shot well they still shot well and a little faster with the same load. however you really got me to thinking that maybe the only guns that need it are those that would shoot one or two perfect shots then walk right off the paper. these it cures as they bend as they get warmer. thank you for makeing me think this one out. from now on im going to only recommend if they appear to be bending under heat. my sons 270 shot 100 ft per sec faster after cryo teating as to before cryo teating. cryo only does about 70 percent harmoniics but it can do other things. sonic treatment is about the harmonics only. i have a douglas 1/18 twist .45 barrel that was neither cryo treated of sonic and it is a tackdriver. thanks for makeing me rethink this.

[BCRider]

Before you glass, just insert some bits of business card in the targeted location, and see what that does. If it helps, maybe that's the place to try the silicone.

To try out the idea of pillar bedding the fore stock on my Encore I started out with just a couple of washers made from 1/16 leather to slightly separate the stock from contact with the metal other than those two spots. This worked out so well that I haven't actually got around to going ahead with the metal bushings that would form the true pillar bedding. My groups shrunk to almost half the size of previous trial attempts. I'd taken this as proof of the pillar bedding concept. But the leather has some give to it so it's likely acting a little like this damper idea at the same time as limiting any outside force on the barrel from more than the two contact points.

In the end I still want to install metal bushings but the leather washer trick seems so good that I may not actually let the new bushings extend into the barrel channel to become pillars. Instead they'll simply be anti crush spacers for the screws to avoid the wood just bruising down and becoming loose all the time.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Try shooting 13-15 shots in 20 mins in the America's Cup match a sharps barrel gets plenty hot. Make sure the forearm is clearing the face of the action. So you can and will heat up a barrel of a single shot in silhouette or Creedmoor match.
KW