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Love Life
03-09-2014, 09:44 PM
Fun with the 10mm

Let me start this off by saying that I am no High Master when it comes to shooting pistols. I know my limitations!!

Recently I picked up one of my “Must own someday” guns. One of the big S&W autos in 10mm. I love the old S&W autos. They have proven to be accurate, reliable, rugged, and they make chicks dig you. This pistol also came from a man I have a deep respect for so putting the old girl into the lineup for mountain lion protection duty gives me a big smile on my face, and I hope it gives him a smile to know that this old warhorse is being called upon to protect my family as well.

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Unfortunately I haven’t had much time to play with it yet. So, with the morning being so nice, I decided to load some ammo and hit the range.

I loaded both jacketed and cast bullets. Ya’ll are thinking “Ewwwww. Jacketed bullets are gross!!” but this isn’t my first rodeo with the 10mm so I like to have some 10mm jacketed bullets in stock. In this case the jacketed bullets were 180 gr Hornady HAP bullets. I have found these bullets to be accurate, consistent, and cheap-ish through the years. Plus they look cool.

The cast boolits were RCBS 200 gr SWC that weigh 210 gr after 2 coats of HI-TEK super coat bullet coating. There really is not much to say about the bullet as the RCBS mould casts like a dream and the bullet looks good.

I’ll get to the shooting:

Jacketed bullets: As you all know, data for the 10mm Auto is all over the place for all powders and bullet combos for the cartridge. So I referenced several load manuals, the powder manufacturer, etc. Earlier this month I had worked up to 11 gr of AA#7 under the Hornady HAP bullet. The most accurate charge was 10.4 gr so far. Now, with the 10mm I like to run on the ragged edge with jacketed bullets. I mean, come on, it’s the whole purpose of the cartridge. If I wanted to shoot 40 S&W level loads then I would buy a 40 S&W, but I digress.

What I wanted to accomplish today was work up to the max charge in the Speer #13 manual and establish a charge weight ceiling. I accomplished both of those, and it just so turns out the max in the Speer manual is the load ceiling I am comfortable with using this powder. The targets are here and I’ll stick with 11.9 gr of AA#7 for my max load for this bullet/powder combo.

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Cast bullets:
After shooting all the jacketed bullet loads I cleaned the barrel with Hoppes #9, patched it dry, and then ran two soaked patches of Butch’s bore shine through the barrel. I let it soak while I changed targets and had a smoke. I then patched the bore completely dry.
The bullets fired today were sized to .401 and coated with 2 coats of HI-TEK Supercoat bullet coating. The alloy is of unknown hardness and makeup as I just add stuff to it over the years. It smushes the same against wheel weights though. Now, I did slug the barrel and it measured at .402. Why am I shooting boolits sized to .401 then? Well…I’m a methodical individual and wanted to shoot these to see the results before I opened up my Lee sizing die (again) to .402. Some interesting things occurred and I may pursue the results further someday…maybe.

On to the shooting!!

As you can see from the targets, the groups were immediately better with the cast bullets. Go figure. Now here is the oddity. My hypothesis before shooting was that the HI-TEK coated bullets would be an epic fail and result in SEVERE leading due to the poor fit and pressures of the cartridge. I know this is getting long winded, but stick with me here.

At the starting charge (8.6 gr) the bore was SQUEAKY clean. It looked like I had just shot jacketed through it (typical results with HI-TEK coated bullets). I was pretty happy. Now as I moved up in charges you can begin to see the HI-TEK fail in the barrel…I think. What happened at 8.8 gr all the way to 9.5 gr is at the end of each 10 shot string there were some streaks in the end of the barrel. It truly looked like lube failure from wax lubes. It looked like the lube was running out. Odd, huh?

Between each 10 shot string I hit the barrel with a dry copper cleaning brush followed by one patch. That was all it took and the streaks in the end of the barrel were gone and the barrel looked like a mirror. Now, I know you are all asking how I know it was coating failure and not powder fouling. Well, the recovered bullets show where the rifling stripped the coating off at the edge of the rifling which is where the streaks were. I am going to assume this may be from skidding due to the undersized bullets. However; the accuracy doesn’t tell that tail. Interesting indeed.

Here are the cast bullet targets:

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Here are the recovered bullets:

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Now some will assume that HI-TEK is an epic fail. Not the case at all here. The coating protected the bullet, and kept accuracy, even though it was undersized with an unknown alloy and in a high pressure cartridge. I love the stuff!

Next time I hit the range I will be shooting bullets sized to .402, and I will be working up to the book max (or whatever the brass tells me is max) with AA#7. Hopefully the accuracy continues.

No real point to this long winded post, but I just wanted to share a day with the 10mm.

remy3424
03-09-2014, 09:55 PM
Now there you have done it.....I feel the need to get my 10 out of the vault!! Nice write-up, nice day...super nice here also today, test drove a few 45s from a new mold myself.

clownbear69
03-09-2014, 09:57 PM
Awesome.

Love Life my first Handgun I bought myself was my Colt Delta Elite. 10mm Is always fun

May I ask how much did you pick that Smith up for? Havent seen them anywhere for atleast 3-4 years

osteodoc08
03-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Nice Smith with great story to go along with it.

Sounds like I'll have to get my Glock 20sf out.

Love Life
03-09-2014, 10:05 PM
Awesome.

Love Life my first Handgun I bought myself was my Colt Delta Elite. 10mm Is always fun

May I ask how much did you pick that Smith up for? Havent seen them anywhere for atleast 3-4 years

Like this one... [smilie=1:

labradigger1
03-09-2014, 10:06 PM
Hey did you hear the 10mm is more powerful than a 41 rem mag? (Ha ha couldnt resist).
I had a s&w 4506 and sold it some years back. Stupid stupid stupid of me.

Love Life
03-09-2014, 10:07 PM
I also heard that the 41 mag was better than the 44 mag. Let the thread drift begin!!

clownbear69
03-09-2014, 10:08 PM
Like this one... [smilie=1:

Nope I have the full blued one circa 1991 I paid 500 bucks for mine (big thumbs up)

Love Life
03-09-2014, 10:09 PM
Lucky!

clownbear69
03-09-2014, 10:13 PM
Like I have told everyone when you have a chance to Pick up a Glock or Delta Elite for the same price you go for the DE.

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Heres my only photo of it

osteodoc08
03-09-2014, 10:20 PM
I also heard that the 41 mag was better than the 44 mag. Let the thread drift begin!!

Of course it is. Every 41 mag lover like myself knows that. Besides, it doesn't have to lie and make it sound bigger than it is to sell to the unsuspecting. There's something to be said about honesty....

;-)

pretzelxx
03-09-2014, 10:23 PM
Green bay packers, pbr, corn on the cob and guns?!!? All in the same photo??? Amazing.

Love life, good read actually, interesting results. Glad to see you had a good time today! Good buy on the pistol as well, some day I will get my hands on one... someday.

Love Life
03-09-2014, 11:45 PM
It was a great time. I look forward to doing more shooting with the RCBS bullet. I wonder how the accuracy will be sized at .402.

clownbear69
03-10-2014, 01:09 AM
I forgot to ask but any chance to get an approx. FPS on that on your next go around?

Love Life
03-10-2014, 01:11 AM
Probably not. My chrony has been sitting in the corner for over a year with a .358 diameter hole in the screen.

clownbear69
03-10-2014, 01:13 AM
Probably not. My chrony has been sitting in the corner for over a year with a .358 diameter hole in the screen.

that's a story I bet. but keep posting on this very interested in this

labradigger1
03-10-2014, 03:19 AM
I also heard that the 41 mag was better than the 44 mag. Let the thread drift begin!!

Apologies for the thread drift, just poking fun. My son is experiencing severe pain from a gall blatter surgery gone wrong and going under the knife again in a couple hours so i was just venting. Btw, i never said 41 v/s 44, but 41/v/s 10mm. I was merely saying how much i always liked the large frame smiths as well.
lab

popper
03-10-2014, 09:38 AM
sized to .401 and coated with 2 coats of HI-TEKSized, then coated? Gets you to 0.402 or so.
Same results I get in 40. Accuracy doesn't degrade until really leaded. 9mm is a little trickier. you'll probably have to let the boolits age harden to eliminate the strippping problem.

Love Life
03-10-2014, 10:51 AM
Apologies for the thread drift, just poking fun. My son is experiencing severe pain from a gall blatter surgery gone wrong and going under the knife again in a couple hours so i was just venting. Btw, i never said 41 v/s 44, but 41/v/s 10mm. I was merely saying how much i always liked the large frame smiths as well.
lab

I wasn't offended or bothered at all! It (What I said) was said in jest. I, in fact, do enjoy thread drift as you never know where it'll go!!

Love Life
03-10-2014, 10:52 AM
Sized, then coated? Gets you to 0.402 or so.
Same results I get in 40. Accuracy doesn't degrade until really leaded. 9mm is a little trickier. you'll probably have to let the boolits age harden to eliminate the strippping problem.

Coated, and then sized. These drop from the mould at .4025X.403. These boolits are about 6 months old. I'll be opening the die to up today.

missionary5155
03-10-2014, 11:40 AM
Good morning
.402 will shine like the noon day sun ! Thats my prediction and I am know to be right sometimes. I have tried .403 in my 40's with no loose in accuracy (Glocks, P9 and 2000 carbine).
It's not that the caliber .41 mag is more powerful... but absolutely more accurate !
I have been patiently waiting for the right 10mm to come forth to be latched onto... I had to dry my keyboard looking at photos.
Mike in Peru

nickE10mm
03-16-2014, 08:39 PM
Great post! just shot my big ol' G20SF today with both BlueDot, Longshot, WSF and HP38 (W231) loads.... had a blast!

dnotarianni
03-17-2014, 08:34 AM
Ugh Bottom feeders Get a wheel gun for real 10mm fun and no brass to chase!
Dave
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Love Life
03-17-2014, 10:43 AM
Ugh Bottom feeders Get a wheel gun for real 10mm fun and no brass to chase!
Dave

Moonclips...ewwww. I've had moonclip revolvers before, and while a bit cool, a bit of a hassle as well. Never again!! Maybe...

I did some more testing on Sunday and will post the results this evening. I sized to .402, found the top end for AA#7 under the RCBS 200 LSWC, and began work up with AA#9 with jacketed. Quite a bit was learned and I'll get it posted up with pictures!! The 10mm is so much fun.

Intel6
03-17-2014, 01:58 PM
Here is my latest 10mm to go with my other G20 and my S&W 610. 6in. longslide G20 with a KKM barrel. Just got it broken in and now need to start working up a load. The second pic is of two heavy 10mm bullets. The one on the left is a 200 WFN bullet pulled from some older Doubletap ammo. The one on the right is a mould I got from LBT and it casts a 220 WFN gaschecked bullet. This bullet with 8+ grains of 800 X is deadly out of my 6.5" 610 so I wanto t see how it shoots out of the G20 longslide.

Neal in AZ


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/G20L_WEB.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/10mm_bullets.jpg

RED333
03-17-2014, 09:47 PM
Good day of shooting is way better than not, good write up LL.

Love Life
03-17-2014, 10:58 PM
Fun with the 10mm #2

So there I was, larger than life as usual. It was a beautiful day this Sunday so instead of sleeping after my 24 hour duty I decided to head out the range (read desert) and continue my development. It is important to remember that I am doing a couple things. I am working up to a load ceiling for the RCBS 200 gr LSWC with AA#7 and looking for accuracy.
I also started to play with AA#9 with the 180 gr Hornady HAP bullet.
Enough chatter up here and let me get to the shooting!!


What you see here are my targets here with the RCBS-200 LSWC bullet coated with 2 coats of HI-TEK Super Coat and sized to .402. In my first load work ups my bullets were sized to .401. During the initial work up I was getting what looked like smearing at the end of the barrel. I wanted to know if the same would happen with the bullets sized to .402. The same did happen. It once again looked like a wax lube failure. It came out with one pass of a dry brush and one patch. It may just be fouling because I couldn’t see any coating on the patch or brush. What I’ll do next is take the best load I’ve developed and shoot a couple 50 shot groups to see if I get the usual leaded barrel accuracy issues. It is odd indeed, but I suspect everything will be fine.

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Back to the load development. I worked up from 9.7 gr to 10.9 gr of AA#7. DO YOUR OWN LOAD DEVELOPMENT!!! IF YOU TAKE MY LOADS AND BLOW YOURSELF UP THEN THAT IS ON YOU!!!

Immediate accuracy improvement was shown from the 1st group. I will attribute this to sizing to .402. The targets tell the tale of accuracy, but the brass tells the tale of pressure. In my development I started to get my 1st pressure signs at 10.6 gr of AA#7 and that continued to my final load of 10.9 gr of AA#7. What pressure signs you ask? Why, the notorious bulge or smile. I tried to get it in the brass picture. At 10.6 gr I got a bulge that could be seen and felt. Needless to say, but the brass from the 10.6 and 10.9 gr loads is headed to the scrap bin. No worries though because I had established my pressure ceiling!!! The top load for this bullet/powder combo is 10.3 gr of AA#7 and it just so happens to be an accurate load to boot!!


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Now to the jacketed bullets. I was using 180 gr Hornady HAP bullets and working with AA#9. Not much to write home about here. You can see that once again the jacketed bullet accuracy was not up to par with the cast bullets. Once these bullets run out I will not be buying any more of them for this pistol. Shooting the AA#9 I didn’t get any pressure signs. As a matter of fact I got low pressure signs. Very dirty brass and unburned powder in the barrel were the norm. I’m not worried though because AA#9 likes to play at the top end so I expect accuracy to improve and dirty brass to stop as I sneak up on the max charge. Here are the targets.


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Next on the to do list is to start working up RCBS-200-LSWC with AA#9 and test some NOE-200-WFN bullets I got from a member here with both AA#7 and AA#9. Then I have to start working on my nuclear loads with the 800X!!! So far I have established a safe and brass friendly ceiling for both the Hornady HAP and RCBS-200-LSWC using AA#7 powder and I have had mucho fun doing it!!

Groo
03-18-2014, 06:04 PM
Groo here
Love life
When you use AA-9 in a 10mm , people often run 100% to 105% density loadings [ work up~!!!!!]
AA-9 is very slow , aa7 will give more speed but also more pressure.
With heaver/longer bullets you can fit more powder in the case with aa-7.[ more pressure]
I like aa-9 , hard to get in trouble.
As to your brass, check or replace your slide and hammer springs.
Your gun is older and may need a spring change [ unlike 10mm, 45acp springs seem to go for ever.]

Love Life
03-18-2014, 09:06 PM
Groo, thank you for that information. As for the springs, I have been busy clearing out MidwayUSA and Numerich of spare parts. I will look into taking care of the spring here shortly. I plan to keep the factory weight, but I also ordered a Wolf extra power 20lb spring just in case.

On to the shooting!!

She really came alive with the AA#9 and the 200 gr cast bullets today. I didn't even fool with the jacketed bullets since they have really lagged behind the in the accuracy department, and the print 2 1/2 inches low. So I am finally listening to what the gun has been telling me all along...SHE WANTS 200 GR BULLETS!!!

I shot two different cast bullets today. I shot the RCBS-200-LSWC, and I added a 3rd coat of HI-TEK for a total of 3 coats on that bullet. That was because I was seeing smearing at the end of the barrel even after sizing to .402. Well...the 3rd coat did the trick and no smearing occurred today. I'm going to assume I need to water quench after the 2nd coat on my next batch, and I'll cover why later. For this bullet I worked up from 10.6 gr AA#9 to 11.8 gr of AA#9 per the Accurate Arms load data. There were no pressure signs. Here are the targets at 15 yds. All 10 shot groups. One has a flier in it from another group. I knew it when I pulled the trigger...


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Moving on to my next set of targets. These were shot with the NOE-200-WFN coated ith 2 coats of HI-TEK red/copper. These I got from another member (very nice quality) and they were harder than my RCBS bullets. I sized them to .402 and I was off to the races. These were loaded over the same AA#9 data as the RCBS bullets. 10.6 gr-11.8 gr. Once again there was no high pressure. These bullets with only to coats (the 2nd coat was rushed and a little bubbly) did not leave any smears at all. The barrel looked squeaky clean after each group. Each target has a 10 shot group from 15 yds. As you can see, this bullet cuts nice holes in the paper.

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Below are some of the recovered NOE-200-WFN bullets. I am off to buy one of these moulds right now!!

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Next on the agenda is to keep working up both bullets with AA#9 until I hit my ceiling and call it good. Then load a whole boatload of them and go blasting!!!


I hope you have all enjoyed my fun with the 10mm. Stay tuned as I find my load ceiling and then push things out to 25 yds. After that comes the 50 yd shooting on the echo target!!

The 10mm is one of those cartridges surrounded with hocus pocus and wrapped in voodoo. Lets get this girl nailed down!! If you have some 10mm cast bullet, or jacketed, knowledge to pass on then please post it!!

Any Cal.
03-21-2014, 12:02 AM
I shoot lots of it, using a 225g Mountain mold over Longshot. Mine was developed as a woods gun, and I haven't tried to build any special accuracy, maybe 4" @ 25 yds most of the time. All I can contribute is that Longshot works really well and is cheap to buy, as well as requiring small charges. Works from 180 or less up through the heavies.

Even w/ heavy boolits, 100yds isn't difficult, more of a gun issue than cartridge issue. Considerably less drop to 10 than .45...

Oh, I am using Tac 1, works fine though I do get a bit of leading. It never gets worse, and I never brush it out, though I do get better accuracy from a clean bore.

Love Life
04-04-2014, 02:12 AM
Here is my latest 10mm to go with my other G20 and my S&W 610. 6in. longslide G20 with a KKM barrel. Just got it broken in and now need to start working up a load. The second pic is of two heavy 10mm bullets. The one on the left is a 200 WFN bullet pulled from some older Doubletap ammo. The one on the right is a mould I got from LBT and it casts a 220 WFN gaschecked bullet. This bullet with 8+ grains of 800 X is deadly out of my 6.5" 610 so I wanto t see how it shoots out of the G20 longslide.

Neal in AZ


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/G20L_WEB.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/10mm_bullets.jpg

Did you build that long slide yourself?

nickE10mm
04-04-2014, 12:15 PM
Great post. Will look forward to your remaining tests

Intel6
04-09-2014, 01:47 PM
Did you build that long slide yourself?

Yes, got the slide, added the internals, got a KKM barrel and added the sights. I had to wait because I wanted the slide without the cut out so I had max mass in the slide. So far it have been running good.

Neal in AZ

onceabull
04-09-2014, 03:01 PM
Can't abide moon clips,and want big with the 10MM---- Try the Blackhawk Buckeye convertible..Might still be a click off the top end loaded 41 S&W Mag..to get any closer though you proably have have a 10 MM cylinder built for a SuperHedhawk...-- Onceabull

Hunter
04-10-2014, 01:01 AM
I have found true love with the 10mm Auto.