Would you shoot this one more time

[ncbearman]

99114 99115

[waksupi]

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be reloading.

[AlaskanGuy]

No way.... Straight to the trash barrel... After pulling the boolit...

[Teddy (punchie)]

If I had to yes , but I would trash it to save time and trouble. In the wrong gun maybe hard to get back out. Better have glasses on, a glove would not hurt. Maybe a face shield to.

[starmac]

If I had to???????? Exactly what kind of scenario would it be to have to???

[freebullet]

No, I place too much value on me and my guns. If you do decide to go fer it please have a friend let us know how it turned out, in case you can't.

[Cmm_3940]

The gun? Sure. That cartridge? Not unless I plan on making it my very last ever, and don't like opening ketchup bottles. Or even seeing them, really.

[Pb2au]

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be reloading.

I concur with Mr. Waksupi on this one.

That is pretty much reloading 101. Inspection of the case is one of the first steps in reloading.

[Hickok]

No way!

[cbrick]

Would you shoot this one more time

Is that a joke or a trick question?

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Me, no. You or anyone else can shoot it as long as none of my family or myself is nearby. This has Darwin Award winner written all over it.

[M-Tecs]

I personally would not. To answer your question more effectively I will try to answer what will happen if you fire this cartridge. Since it seems to chamber OK firing it would not be an issue. The issue starts with the possible gas leakage at the base of the crack. The 45 ACP is relatively low pressure cartridge but it still has significant pressures. SAAMI max in standard is 21,000 PSI and 23,000 with +P.

I have no idea if the case will seal without gas leakage. If it does not you may get some flame cutting in the chamber and some gas blowback. Having seen the aftermaths of double charges and squib loads stuck in the barrel followed by a full power load the blowback wouldn't be a major concern. I would mostly be concerned about a flame cut spot in the chamber. The 1911 handles blowups surprisingly well.

I don’t know how common this is but some of the BPCR guys that I shoot with will continue to use cases that have pinholes from BP corrosion. Can it be done? Yes, but why?

The case owes you nothing, the bullet can be pulled, the powder can be reused so all you are really out is a 3 or 4 cent primer.

On a side note shotguns with loose primers will flame cut at 12,000 PSI.

Also (if mag loaded) the bullet may setback into the case. This can significantly raise pressure.

[frkelly74]

you can reuse the primer if you remove it carefully , and sell the brass as scrap. nothing is wasted but time.

[ncbearman]

Wow, ease up guys. Wak I hope your comment was in jest. In fact most of them on here were not conducive to helping someone. A bunch of smart a** remarks. Good thing I'm thick skinned.

Mtec took the time to explain something (we all knew) I think. Thank you. But as you can see there were differing views on the subject and I wanted to hear them. I don't shoot these if I catch them first time around. But like someone else said I have shot them not knowing.

Be careful how you respond to people guys. We are here to help and encourage others in our hobby/craft.

[AricTheRed]

If I had to???????? Exactly what kind of scenario would it be to have to???

Save that one for the last shot out of your liberator when you are ambushing the occupiers to take their weapons to start your partisan resistance cell.


WOLVERINES!

And yeah, no, I wouldn't shoot it either.

[osteodoc08]

I've trashed a bunch of ammo for less. Not worth it.

I try to inspect my brass before and after I load. I have loaded up some split cases or it split during belling. Pull the bullet, hit the primer with WD-40 and trash it. Saved powder (from pulls) usually get burned for entertainment purposes. Its usually only a few small grains.

I showed my father in law how smokeless powder doesnt explode, just burns. He never knew that. He's still new to the craft.

[waksupi]

Wow, ease up guys. Wak I hope your comment was in jest. In fact most of them on here were not conducive to helping someone. A bunch of smart a** remarks. Good thing I'm thick skinned.

Mtec took the time to explain something (we all knew) I think. Thank you. But as you can see there were differing views on the subject and I wanted to hear them. I don't shoot these if I catch them first time around. But like someone else said I have shot them not knowing.

Be careful how you respond to people guys. We are here to help and encourage others in our hobby/craft.

No I was not jesting. If someone doesn't know that can damage the gun and shooter, they have no business reloading.

[ncbearman]

No I was not jesting. If someone doesn't know that can damage the gun and shooter, they have no business reloading.

Really...............so if someone just starting out reloading were to come here and ask that question thats what you would tell them. Member since 2005 I would expect more of. At one point I valued your opinion and even asked for it on occasion.

Not so much anymore.

[nekshot]

this thread reminded me of a klutz team menonite kid one sunday afternoon he took a old single shot 12 gauge loaded and rammed it into the ground and pulled the trigger. It worked for him and I ran !!!

[Pepe Ray]

We have here a problem related to semantics.
The perception of the reason for asking the question.
The O.P. explains that the question was one of academics.
Ric understood it as being asked because of NEED. In which case I stand with him. The NEED to know the answer should have been covered ages before it hit this forum.
Academically almost ANY dumb question can be received with curtesy .
Pepe Ray
.

[Bullshop Junior]

Is shoot it. Ive shot cracked cases before. If I catch it when I inspect them it gets chunked. If It gets loaded, I'll shoot it next time to the range, unless it is below the neck on a bottle neck. Then ill chunk it.

[Outpost75]

Does your .45 have metal grips?

Are your magazines disposable?

Do you wear Kevlar gloves?

You hit baseballs with cracked bats too, I'll bet!

[dragon813gt]

Really...............so if someone just starting out reloading were to come here and ask that question thats what you would tell them.
Absolutely. There is no room for being nice when it comes to reloading. You not only put your life on the line but anyone that is around you when you are shooting. And nothing out of line was said. If you think the comments in this thread warrant thick skin then I wonder how you get through life because this is mild. Don't defend the stupid when it comes to reloading. Posting a picture of a cracked case and asking if it's ok to shoot falls in the stupid category. That's a very basic question and it shows that the person asking has not read a manual to understand the basics.

This is by far one of the tamest sites around, including the pit. You don't need thick skin here.

[FLHTC]

Wow, ease up guys. Wak I hope your comment was in jest. In fact most of them on here were not conducive to helping someone. A bunch of smart a** remarks. Good thing I'm thick skinned.

Mtec took the time to explain something (we all knew) I think. Thank you. But as you can see there were differing views on the subject and I wanted to hear them. I don't shoot these if I catch them first time around. But like someone else said I have shot them not knowing.

Be careful how you respond to people guys. We are here to help and encourage others in our hobby/craft.

I agree. Most of the comments here make the old breach loaders sound dangerous.

[FLHTC]

99114 99115

I see a cast bullet and fully supported case web. I'd shoot it in a heartbeat but if I noticed the crack during reloading, I'd toss it.

[Love Life]

I would not shoot it.

[Smoke4320]

actually I see very little wrong with the answers given here.. If you step back and examine them you have 2 camps.. those that value their guns and lives and those willing to take a chance..
you might/probably would be ok shooting that rd once maybe even get away with it a few times (as we have all probably done at least once Unknowingly) but If you already know its cracked why take that chance at you have the gun with a weak chamber at the exact spot where that crack lines up or even just damage your good chamber from the possible flame cutting ?
I understand coming on strong to warn someone of a dangerous situation.. better to warn than to watch them bleed.. YMMV

[dtknowles]

Absolutely. There is no room for being nice when it comes to reloading. You not only put your life on the line but anyone that is around you when you are shooting. And nothing out of line was said. If you think the comments in this thread warrant thick skin then I wonder how you get through life because this is mild. Don't defend the stupid when it comes to reloading. Posting a picture of a cracked case and asking if it's ok to shoot falls in the stupid category. That's a very basic question and it shows that the person asking has not read a manual to understand the basics.

This is by far one of the tamest sites around, including the pit. You don't need thick skin here.

The OP did not ask if it was OK to shoot that split neck round, he asked if you would shoot it. I expect that this conversation has been valuable to many. Do you think if that round was shot it would be a hazard to anyone but the shooter? I see plenty of room for being nice. There are even nice ways of telling someone that they are being stupid. I would not feed it from the magazine and would orient the split to 12 o'clock if I was to shoot it but there is very little reason to bother shooting it, so nor would not shoot or save it. I would break it down and salvage the components. If I only had a handful of rounds and little hope of finding or making more and I found that one, I would mark is and save for possible need.

Tim

[starmac]

Personally I think Waksupis answer was THE correct one. Any manual I have would tell you to ditch that one, but if a guy needs a manual to tell you that, then there is zero common sense involved. Reloading is not a good hobby for people with no common sense.

[Cmm_3940]

Wow, ease up guys. Wak I hope your comment was in jest. In fact most of them on here were not conducive to helping someone. A bunch of smart a** remarks. Good thing I'm thick skinned.

Comment was blunt, but too the point and accurate. Sometimes the truth hurts, but hurts much less than a serious injury. Personally, I would feel irresponsible putting it any other way.


Be careful how you respond to people guys. We are here to help and encourage others in our hobby/craft.

Sensationalized news reports about some idiot redneck reloader that done blowed hisself up in a 'hey, y'all, watch this' moment do not serve to encourage others in our hobby/craft.

I'm sure everyone here has nothing but the OPs best interest in mind. When it comes to providing good reloading advice, it is much more challenging to get this bunch to shut up. :)

Another possibility is that we all swallowed the OPs bait hook, line, and sinker.

[M-Tecs]

The crack stops well before the expansion area stops at the head of the case so it may fully seal. If not, it will have very limited gas leakage. How many of you shoot AR's or 45 Colt with BP? If you do chances are good that you are getting more gas leakage than the pictured case will ever allow.

The AR gas tube dumps gas into the carrier with significant leakage. That's why you sometimes get the puff of smoke from the charge handle.

BP in in new 45 Colt Starline brass that has not been annealed is notoriously bad for this. Light smokeless loads will also do this. That's why on some light loads you see carbon half way down the case.

Since they both leak is it unsafe to fire an AR with any ammo or 45 Colt with BP?

It's good that most people are erring on the side of safety. Caution is good. With the availability of cheap brass there is no reason to push the limits. That being said I have seen people push the limits far beyond the pictured case and get away with it. On a 1911 double charges or bullets stuck in the bore will blow mags and grips and possibly the rest of the gun. The pictured case will not.

When I first started shooting Service Rifle one of my buddies had a state issued DCM M-14 that had excessive headspace. My buddy was broke and all his brass was well used donated brass that started life as M-60 brass. He would get full head separation on a couple of cases almost every string. Both halves would eject. To the best of my knowledge he never had an alibi related to case separation. He shot it that way for two years without incident. He had a couple hundred full case separations. Later he saved for good equipment and is now a High Master.

When it first started happening the RO and myself tried to get him to stop using it. Like most we were convicted the full separations would end the world as we know it. He successfully argued that since he wasn't needing alibis and that since he wasn't getting blowback it was not unsafe. I also see a fair number of full head separations with the AR crowd without incident. Mostly due to oversizing.

By trade I am a toolmaker and I have been part-time gunsmithing/ military marksmanship team armorer for 30 plus years. Some of the local smiths bring me stuff they can't handle. Mostly blown-up guns. All the serious issues I have seen have been due to massive overloads/wrong powder, bore obstructions or out of battery firing.

I used to worry a lot more about cracked cases and head separations. I have yet to see any serious issues with cracked cases or head separations. I don't consider minor flame cutting a serious issue

I also see a lot of bolt faces flame cut because the owners are super gluing the primers when the pockets get loose.

A case head failure below the web would be very serious. I am not sure this has happened (without a massive overload/wrong powder, bore obstructions or out of battery firing) since balloon head case went out of use.

[Blammer]

I would. I don't understand the problem? sure the brass will be trashed after the shot but then it already is.

[ncbearman]

Well this has been fun!...............I (the OP) appreciate the constructive information that has been brought forth here. When it comes to business and academics we all need to gather all the info we can to make an informed decision about something. Some folks can get their knowledge out in more mature ways than others. I guess the honeymoon phase of this forum is over for me. I understand the argument about "this question has been answered 100 times before" but to say someone is stupid or asks a stupid question is really not an appropriate response to someone. Those of you that did answer in that way don't even realize how laughable and irrelevant I find your info. Don't mistake my comment about thick skin as a weakness. I don't know any of you and I choose to glean that which is useful for me. The rest of your useless comments are scrolled through very quickly.

Again, thank you to those of you that took the time to explain your reasons for your opinion instead of some harsh, scarcastic remark.

btw- I have been reloading longer than alot of you have been alive. Also between Nam and my love of shooting I have probably put more rounds down various barrels than some of you ever will. Not boasting just clarifying for those of you that were of the opinion that I am a newb.
I would choose not to shoot this round and salvage the components.

Thats all I have to say about that.

[Cmm_3940]

I would. I don't understand the problem? sure the brass will be trashed after the shot but then it already is.

Too many opportunities for uncontrolled results. If round is fed from a mag, it could

1) function normally.

2) make a mess, possibly jamming in the barrel, as the slide functions like a kinetic bullet puller on the loosely held bullet. Depends on headspace, barrel throat, COL.

3) loose bullet is compressed into the case within the mag until it becomes tight, creating an overpressure situation

4) do something else that I haven't considered here.

Hand feeding the round would be different, probably OK, but the emphasis is on probably. I wouldn't fire it, myself.

[M-Tecs]

Ncbearman. Checkout your post count on your last post. 666 proves you ARE the devil.:kidding::bigsmyl2:

ncbearman View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Add as Contact Send Email
Boolit Master

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Join Date May 2012
Location NC
Posts 666

[smokeywolf]

For anyone to ask that question, I would have to assume that they have not done their due diligence and read at least a couple of books before beginning hands-on reloading. All reloading books that I have read, that are put out by the reloading equipment and component manufacturers advise you to inspect your brass and discard any that show defects. They do not say, "shoot it one more time". Also, as the cartridge can be disassembled and only the case discarded, it would imply that the person asking this question was considering subjecting themselves, those around them and a perhaps $1,000.00 gun to elevated risks for the sake of getting one more firing out of a .20 cent piece of brass.

This is not a case where the shooter didn't know the case was split. This is a case of the shooter/reloader making a conscious decision to load a damaged cartridge into the firearm and intentionally subject himself and others to elevated risk.

Reloading does not require a PhD, but it does require a fair amount of common sense.

An individual who would do such a thing should consider finding a different hobby or might be better off purchasing their ammo in a box at the store.

My 2 cents,

smokeywolf

[CastingFool]

If it were me, I would disassemble the round, save the boolit, and powder (if known). then and only then, I would load it and shoot, to safely dispose of the primer (putting some oil in the case to kill the primer doesn't always work) then the split case would be crushed to prevent anyone else from accidentally reloading it, and tossed in the scrap bin. JMO.

[williamwaco]

Would you shoot this one more time

99114 99115

Bear,

I love your post number.

Did you wait for that number to come up just to "Devil" some of the members?

I have been shooting cracked necks for years.
In fact, I did an accuracy test just this morning using cracked vs good necks in the .38-55.

If it cracked upon sizing or expanding I would toss it.
If it cracked on seating the bullet or crimping:
-- If it were a straight case revolver, I would shoot it then toss it.
-- If it were an auto pistol, like your example, I would salvage the components and toss the case.
( I would never shoot any cracked case in an automatic pistol or rifle. )

If it were a bottle neck with the crack at the mouth, same as above.
If it were a bottle neck with the crack at or below the shoulder, toss it.

We are talking about range grade ammo here. I would NEVER take anything but triple inspected perfect ammo on a hunting trip.

[Animal]

I would shoot it one more time, but that is only if I missed it the first time. :Fire:

But if someone asked me to put it in my gun and shoot it... NOOOOOOOOOOOO

[HarryT]

That case would make a nice large primer .45 GAP.
I've shot split cases in autos and revolvers. I usually throw them away. Some loaders trim split cases to fit another firearm (.357/38,
.44 Magnum/Special, etc...).

[MBTcustom]

Ncbearman,
There is nothing wrong with being new to reloading. No one is looking down on you for that.
Waksupi is an experianced gunsmith (as am I) and knows very well of what he speaks. He comes across gruff sometimes because he has seen too many people who got hurt or hurt those around them for doing something foolish, like making a habit of shooting cartridges like the one you posted. I am collecting a folder of pictures of guns belonging to people who blew off my kind words of warning and blew their gun up. I've only been in this business for a few years, and Im thinking of making a folder of pictures dealing with scenarios like this. You can only emagine how many a man like waksupi has seen! I imagine that there comes a point where the most important thing becomes getting through to the person in question (yourself in this case) regardless of hurt feelings.
We are gunsmiths. Our livlyhood is based on firearms safety and protecting our clients, and there are situations that we blame ourselves for. Things that happened that could possibly have been prevented had we been less concerned for the feelings of the person who was doomed to be permanently maimed in the very near future.
Im not asking you to just roll over and take it, but I dont think you understand the heart behind the comments.

[M-Tecs]

I don’t believe I have ever seen a post go this far of track this quick on Cast Boolits.

The OP asked
Would you shoot this one more time


99114 99115


Nothing more or nothing less. Anything beyond that is per conjecture. We don’t even know it it’s his barrel and cartridge in the picture!!!!

The replies are not what I normally expect from this forum. The level of rudeness, sarcasms and condescension is very surprising and disappointing.

I have reread all my comments and I am comfortable with what I stated. Are You?

[FLHTC]

And to think ncbearman misunderstood the intentions of many that replied. [smilie=1:

[M-Tecs]

Modern firearms handle gas leakage around the case surprisingly well. Interesting read here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?178802-38-Special-Fired-In-a-10-mm-Chamber

[Bullshop Junior]

I don’t believe I have ever seen a post go this far of track this quick on Cast Boolits.

The OP asked




Nothing more or nothing less. Anything beyond that is per conjecture. We don’t even know it it’s his barrel and cartridge in the picture!!!!

The replies are not what I normally expect from this forum. The level of rudeness, sarcasms and condescension is very surprising and disappointing.

I have reread all my comments and I am comfortable with what I stated. Are You?

Very well put.

[freebullet]

Some of the posts here are the exact reason I won't shoot reloads of other folks unless I know them and their reloading proceedures well.

I have a simple outlook on reloading. I won't shoot anything I wouldn't be willing to hand to my wife or mom.
Because those gals mean the world to me I use great caution in my reloading. After having a squib last summer I wouldn't even let them shoot the last of that batch, just in case it contained a double. Luckily it didn't. I took a very serious look at why we had the squib and change my reloading procedure to insure it won't happen again. All of the ammo I have on hand I would be willing to let them shoot.

I wouldn't even waste my time pulling the boolit, looks shaved in the one pic. I'd throw it in my clearly marked DO NOT SHOOT container where I put loaded range pick ups and mistakes I don't want to waste my time disassembling. A few grains of powder and a primer aren't worth messin with imo. I will one day give the container to another reloader for salvage of the components or the cops turn in days. I move on and forget about that carp.

If you dont take reloading as an absolute safety first hobby you WILL one day wish you had.

[RoyEllis]

Nothing more or nothing less.

The replies are not what I normally expect from this forum. The level of rudeness, sarcasms and condescension is very surprising and disappointing.

Sort of like the "38spec. deer thread"? Plenty of half-truth, horsecr@p opinion and regurgitated "gun rag BS" posted, even some grand soapbox shuffle dance as well. OP didn't ask if everyone felt it a "good choice" but he sure got jumped & dumped in a big hurry by some. Why would bearman get any better treatment from this crowd?

[FLHTC]

Sort of like the "38spec. deer thread"? Plenty of half-truth, horsecr@p opinion and regurgitated "gun rag BS" posted, even some grand soapbox shuffle dance as well. OP didn't ask if everyone felt it a "good choice" but he sure got jumped & dumped in a big hurry by some. Why would bearman get any better treatment from this crowd?

That's just one of them

[waksupi]

I really don't see why my response got such a reaction. I answered a question.

[btroj]

I really don't see why my response got such a reaction. I answered a question.

Some don't like the direct approach, it hurts their feelings.

I liked your answer. Short, and to the point.

[RoyEllis]

Waksupi wrote "If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be reloading."
JMHO, but there's nothing hateful about that answer, even my preteen grandchildren have been taught to know better than to chamber that, much less let it pass inspection at the reloading bench. Seems kinda like asking "will it hurt if I beat my thumb with this hammer?"I personally can't understand the thought process leading to the question....damaged cases aren't "safe to use".

[dragon813gt]

Some don't like the direct approach, it hurts their feelings.

I liked your answer. Short, and to the point.

Same here. We teach our kids that words don't hurt. So as adults we should realize thay by now.

[Bullshop Junior]

Why are they unsafe explain exactly why you think shooting that will blow your hand off. Ive shot a ton a ammo with split necks. And you know what? It works fine. What's the differance between shooting one thats already cracked and shooting one that splits, or even seperated in the chamber (I had had factory ammo separate and sit from mouth to web first firing)

[ShooterAZ]

I think shooting it in an unsupported chamber could give you some owies.... (This is how I would explain to the grandkids). I'm sure I have probably shot some split cases, by accident, most likely in 38 Special. I would toss that one, why take a chance? It wouldn't blow your hand off, but your face could get peppered by some unwanted particles.

[wallenba]

Sure...in my slingshot. Really dude, are you that low on ammo?

[Teddy (punchie)]

Is shoot it. Ive shot cracked cases before. If I catch it when I inspect them it gets chunked. If It gets loaded, I'll shoot it next time to the range, unless it is below the neck on a bottle neck. Then ill chunk it.

You are going to hear about what you said. But in saying that you are close to what is right. I would not shoot it but It can be done, where the crack is would be the answer.

[Bullshop Junior]

Exactly. Would it go bang? Yes. Would it damage the gun? Probably not. 99 out of 100 it will probably shoot fine. Would I shoot it? Yes. I shoot every day anyway, it's easier then pulling it. Would I give it away? No. I know my guns. My guns would handle it fine.

[RoyEllis]

Why are they unsafe explain exactly why you think shooting that will blow your hand off. Ive shot a ton a ammo with split necks. And you know what? It works fine. What's the differance between shooting one thats already cracked and shooting one that splits, or even seperated in the chamber (I had had factory ammo separate and sit from mouth to web first firing)

I'm not saying it WILL blow up, but it's obviously damaged beyond the parameters of case design which makes it unsafe. that split could already travel inside all the way down & firing pressures cause complete case rupture.
Show me one single manual stating the safety of using split, cracked, stretched or otherwise damaged cases to reload with? Just because shooting arrows straight up in the air has never hurt you doesn't mean you'll never get shot in the foot, ya know what I mean? "Safety is never an accidental occurrence".

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm not saying it WILL blow up, but it's obviously damaged beyond the parameters of case design which makes it unsafe. that split could already travel inside all the way down & firing pressures cause complete case rupture.
Show me one single manual stating the safety of using split, cracked, stretched or otherwise damaged cases to reload with? Just because shooting arrows straight up in the air has never hurt you doesn't mean you'll never get shot in the foot, ya know what I mean? "Safety is never an accidental occurrence".

We are not talking about reloading this case. We are talking about shooting it once as is. Not continuing to throw it back in the bucket to get reloaded over and over with the split.

[RoyEllis]

We are not talking about reloading this case. We are talking about shooting it once as is.

As I said, it's damaged and considered unsafe. Now show me a manual stating otherwise. Out of design spec to start with or as continued use is not different, it's not able to do it's job to contain & direct powder gas pressure exactly as it should.....agreed?
Just because something can be duct taped, baling wired or whatever, doesn't mean it's 100% safe or correct.

[btroj]

Would and should are not the same.

I will admit that I have fired similar rounds in a revolver. Never in a pistol. Most of that is because I have never had a neck split in a pistol cartridge.

It probably won't hurt anything but I don't like probably too much.

[Bullshop Junior]

As I said, it's damaged and considered unsafe. Now show me a manual stating otherwise. Out of design spec to start with or as continued use is not different, it's not able to do it's job to contain & direct powder gas pressure exactly as it should.....agreed?
Just because something can be duct taped, baling wired or whatever, doesn't mean it's 100% safe or correct.

I can agree with that. But I don't even own a loading manual either. Like i said. I would shoot something that looks like that in my 454 or one of my handy rifles. A auto, maybe not. Me it again, I dont own a auto.

[waksupi]

I guess the chambers in your guns belong to the owner, so do to them what you will.

[Bullshop Junior]

I guess the chambers in your guns belong to the owner, so do to them what you will.

Still havnt seen anyone explain exactly why it is a bad idea like I asked a few post back.

[RoyEllis]

Still havnt seen anyone explain exactly why it is a bad idea like I asked a few post back.

FULL ON FACE PALM!!!!!!! What part of that do you not understand? Do you know what "throat erosion" is? Is it not perfectly plain that a split case will allow that same affect to happen to your gun's chamber? The whole purpose of the cartridge case is to do exactly what? Contain and direct the powder gas. If it's damaged then the case is NOT doing it's job and is allowing UNDESIRABLE events to transpire.

[Bullshop Junior]

FULL ON FACE PALM!!!!!!! What part of that do you not understand? Do you know what "throat erosion" is? Is it not perfectly plain that a split case will allow that same affect to happen to your gun's chamber? The whole purpose of the cartridge case is to do exactly what? Contain and direct the powder gas. If it's damaged then the case is NOT doing it's job and is allowing UNDESIRABLE events to transpire.

I've never seen a gun with a straight wall case ever have a worn throat. Maybe I haven't shot mine enough, but I have run several thousand rounds through most of my guns and my 454 and other straight walls show no throat wear. I think this is a mute issue. In a 300wby mag? No, I wouldn't shoot it. But this isnt. This is a 45 auto by the looks of it.

[waksupi]

He don't get it.

[FLHTC]

FULL ON FACE PALM!!!!!!! What part of that do you not understand? Do you know what "throat erosion" is? Is it not perfectly plain that a split case will allow that same affect to happen to your gun's chamber? The whole purpose of the cartridge case is to do exactly what? Contain and direct the powder gas. If it's damaged then the case is NOT doing it's job and is allowing UNDESIRABLE events to transpire.

I am laughing as I write this. You would have to heat your barrel up to the point of being unable to touch it, then fire several dozen rounds exactly like the one in the picture to get even a hint of gas cutting. I've seen throat erosion in belted magnums after about 500 rounds but that's 5.5 lbs of powder and that's........sit down.......6,600 rounds of 45 ACP. We're talking one round. FULL ON FACE PALM!!!!!

[RoyEllis]

He don't get it.

Nope, & I'm now going to take Mr. Twain's advice & exit stage right.
"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."

[Bullshop Junior]

Show me evidence. Show me evidence that shooting a cracked 45 ACP will damage my gun or injure myself. Then I wont so it again.

It's not something I strive to do. But if one misses the initial inspection and gets loaded, yep I'll shoot it. Not at game. It wont go in the box with the rest of the ammo. But it will get fired. Usually Into the 5gal bucket of wet sand out my bad door i use for testing bullet performance.

[Love Life]

Did you shoot it yet? What was the outcome?

[FLHTC]

He don't get it.

Sorry.........I don't either

[MostlyLeverGuns]

There is a lot of esoteric possibilities. Provided that the powder charge is correct for the bullet weight, the most PROBABLE happening is almost nothing. The shot will probably not group with the rest. The cracked case neck means it is time to anneal or discard that lot of cases. If you reload the same bunch of cases over and over without neck annealing the necks will crack due to work hardening. Sometimes they crack at firing, sometimes resizing or neck expansion. Mostly accuracy of the individual cartridge is suspect. I haven't participated in this forum for long, but I am beginning to agree with ncbearman.

[BruceB]

I'm with Daniel on this topic. I don't see the "problem" of physical damage.

Would I fire it if I noticed it BEFORE chambering it? Probably not.

Will it harm the firearm if I DID fire it with a split neck? No.

The temperature in the throat, just ahead of a normal cartridge, is exactly the same as the temperature a fraction of an inch inside the mouth. No problemo. No gas cutting in the throat. Does a high-pressure .38 damage a .357's chamber? Not in my experience... it may foul it, but it would take thousands of such rounds to erode it.... if it ever did.

What about the cases that split during firing? I've picked up plenty of cases that had split during their last firing, with no ill effects on chamber or throat.... including both rifles and handguns. No gas cutting. Those necks almost certainly split during the time of highest pressure and thus highest temperature as well. No chamber damage.

I wouldn't necessarily expect a bullet from a split case to land in a small group....but then again, it might. In my Bullseye competition days, there were occasions when I found split cases in my brass, but never really noticed wild impacts on target on those occasions ....and I WAS paying attention! In actual matches, I made efforts to use only almost-new brass, just as I still do for hunting loads today. However, that was for other reasons.

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm with Daniel on this topic. I don't see the "problem" of physical damage.

Would I fire it if I noticed it BEFORE chambering it? Probably not.

Will it harm the firearm if I DID fire it with a split neck? No.

The temperature in the throat, just ahead of a normal cartridge, is exactly the same as the temperature a fraction of an inch inside the mouth. No problemo. No gas cutting in the throat. Does a high-pressure .38 damage a .357's chamber? Not in my experience... it may foul it, but it would take thousands of such rounds to erode it.... if it ever did.

What about the cases that split during firing? I've picked up plenty of cases that had split during their last firing, with no ill effects on chamber or throat.... including both rifles and handguns. No gas cutting. Those necks almost certainly split during the time of highest pressure and thus highest temperature as well. No chamber damage.

I wouldn't necessarily expect a bullet from a split case to land in a small group....but then again, it might. In my Bullseye competition days, there were occasions when I found split cases in my brass, but never really noticed wild impacts on target on those occasions ....and I WAS paying attention! In actual matches, I made efforts to use only almost-new brass, just as I still do for hunting loads today. However, that was for other reasons.

You had the same point I mentioned earlier on about cases that crack during firing. I have have brand new factory ammo crack on first firing before.

[M-Tecs]

First - neck tension is comprised so if mag loading in an auto the bullet could seat deeper in the case raising pressures.

Second - neck tension is comprised so if loaded in a revolver and not shot first the bullet could move out due to recoil thus binding the cylinder.

Third - once loaded the case is nothing more than a pressure vessel to contain the gas pressure. Once the trigger is pulled the gases will seek the path of least resistance. Normally this path of least resistance pushes the bullet out the bore. In the case with the cracked neck, if the crack is below the base of the bullet, the path of least resistance will be at the base of the bullet at the point of the crack. This MAY lead to flame cutting the chamber wall like a leaking prime flame cuts the bolt face. Not a good thing but it will not blow the gun up.

Fourth - gas leakage around case head. If the crack would extend through the case head you would have massive gas leakage into the action. Very bad and very dangers!! This use to be a big deal in the day of the balloon head cases. I am not aware of any instances of this ever having with modern cases. When a cartridge is fired there will always be some gas leakage until the case fully expands to provide the seal. 45 Colt with BP and some light loads have issues with this. Most actions handle this type of leakage fairly well. If you are wearing safety glasses it's a none issue.

I don't know if case expansion starts at the neck or above the web but after having observed numerous full head separations no abnormal gas leakage was observed. It appears that the case head above the web will provide a full gas seal. Until a crack extends into the web where the case doesn't fully expand this should not be an immediate safety issue but you may be damaging the chamber.

Fifth - the case is out of spec. In a perfect world everything is in spec. Reality not so much. Lots of new brass is to short so it is "out of spec". Per the book it is unsafe but everyone still uses it.

The 460 S&W is a good model to look at since it can be trimmed to 45 Colt, 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy.

For sake of discussion the firearm with be a 460 S&W single shot that we will only use one case for all firings.

First shot - new factory spec - No issues.

Second loading - noted a 1/8" crack on case neck but not below base of bullet. I do not recommend firing it but I cannot come up with any documentable safety issues.

Third loading - crack was ignored but it is now below base of the bullet. Again, I do not recommend firing but at this point the first path of least resistance for the gas is into the chamber wall. This MAY flame cut the chamber. If it happens, not good, but the gun will not blow up and gas will still be sealed above the web.

Fourth loading - brass was trimmed to 454 Casull spec. so now the out of spec (what some believe to be unsafe brass) is now in spec safe 454 Casull brass.

This process could be repeated to 45 Colt than to 45 Schofield and down to 45 Cowboy.

The 45 Cowboy will still provide a full gas seal (even though it’ 45 ACP length) in the 460 S&W chamber.

I just got home and I see some of my reply got cut off. Reply continuation part II below.

[Bullshop Junior]

Bullshop Junior

A cartridge case with this type of crack is outside of design specifications so it has limiting factors as to how safe or unsafe it is.

First - neck tension is comprised so if mag loading in an auto the bullet could seat deeper in the case raising pressures.

Second - neck tension is comprised so if loaded in a revolver and not shoot first bullet could move out due to recoil thus binding the cylinder.

Third - once loaded the case is nothing more than a pressure vessel to contain the gas pressure. Once the trigger is pulled the gases will seek the path of least resistance. Normally this path of least resistance pushes the bullet out the bore. In the case with the cracked neck if the crack is below the base of the bullet the path of least resistance will be at the base of the bullet out the crack. This may lead to flame cutting the chamber wall like a leaking prime flame cuts the bolt face. Not a good thing but it will not blow the gun up.

Fourth - gas leakage around case head. If the crack would extend through the case head you would have massive gas leakage into the action. Very bad and very dangers!! This use to be a big deal in the day of the balloon head cases. I am not aware of any instances of this ever having with modern cases. When a cartridge is fired there will always be some gas leakage until the case full expanse to provide the seal. 45 Colt with BP and some light loads have issues with this. Most actions handle this type of leakage fairly well. If you are wearing safety glasses it's a none issue.

I don't know if case expansion starts at the neck or above the web but after having observed numerous full head separations no abnormal gas leakage was observed. It appears that the case head below the web will provide a full gas seal. Until a crack extends into the web where the case doesn't fully expand this should not be an immediate safety issue but you may be damaging the chamber

Fifth - the case is out of spec. In a perfect world everything is in spec. Reality not so much. Lots of new brass to short so it is "out of spec". Per the book it is unsafe but let's look at the 460 S&W.

For sake of discussion the firearm with be a 460 S&W single shot that we will only use one case for all firings.

First shot - new factory spec - No issues.

Second loading - noted a 1/8" crack on case neck but not below base of bullet. I do not recommend firing it but I cannot come up with any documentable safety issues.

Third loading - crack was ignored but it is now below base of the bullet. Again I do not recommend firing but at this point the first path of least resistance for the gas is into the chamber wall. This may flame cut the chamber. Not good but the gun would blow and gas will still be sealed above the web.

Fourth loading - brass was trimmed to 454 Casull spec so now the out of spec (what some believe to be unsafe brass) is now in spec 454 Casull brass.

This process could be repeated to 45 Colt than to 45 Schofield and down to 45 Cowboy.

The 45 Cowboy will still provide a full gas seal (even though it’ 45 ACP length) in the 460 S&W chamber.

If we have to worry about a cracked case flame cutting the chamber, then we would have to worry about the chamber being damaged shooting short length cartridges on it as well.

Also. I don't put ammo I know to be deformed into my batch of ammo. If one cracks or deforms during loading, I take it out back and shoot it into my sand bucket, and then chunk the case. I always shoot at least one into the sand bucket anyway so why not one I would other wise throw away?

[smokeywolf]

I'm starting to think that this thread should evolve into another question and another thread. That question would be;

If there were something you could do, that was easy, quick and dirt cheap, that would even in the smallest way, minimize or lessen your or another's exposure to injury, while at the same time reducing the possibility of damage to your firearm, would you do it?

Many of the processes and procedures we read in our reloading manuals are put there not just to increase the quality of our ammo, but also to minimize any possible risk to ourselves, those around us and last but not least, to our firearms.

smokeywolf

[BruceB]

You had the same point I mentioned earlier on about cases that crack during firing. I have have brand new factory ammo crack on first firing before.

Agreed...so have I.

I recall one VERY bad batch of Norma .357 factory loads in nickel-plated cases. Over forty percent of the 100 rounds split on the first firing.

NO DAMAGE to my S&W M19 resulted.

[Bullshop Junior]

Agreed...so have I.

I recall one VERY bad batch of Norma .357 factory loads in nickel-plated cases. Over forty percent of the 100 rounds split on the first firing.

NO DAMAGE to my S&W M19 resulted.

I had a whole box...every single one out of. Box of Winchester 454 ammo split, most right around the head, but some from the mouth down on the first firing. One even separated. Also had some factory 270 ammo that was. Brittle (not that old of ammo...maybe 5 years) and a couple of the cases actually came out of the chamber in several pieces.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I really did not answer your question. If it was my reload, YES I would fire it. I would use it for bouncing tin cans at forty feet or some other non-critical use. I would and may have shot similar cartridges without concern. I try to inspect thoroughly and avoid of course, but it is not a big deal.

[M-Tecs]

I just got home and I see some of my reply got cut off. Reply continuation part II

I used the 460 as an example of long to short cartridges that are designed for and can safely fire in one chamber.

This applies directly to the safety of a cracked case since it sets known safety parameters. The 45 acp length 45 Cowboy will safely full seal in a 460 chamber. If this is true, a compelling argument can be made that a crack above this length is not a safety issue for gas handling or blowing up the gun.

I was the one that first raised the issue of possible flame cutting in the chamber. Flame cutting does happen with leaking primers in high pressure loads. I don't ever remember seeing it on low pressure stuff like a 45 ACP but I mostly work on Long Range Match rifles.

On a case with a crack extending below the bullet, the gas seeking the path of least resistance, will first vent at the crack below the bullet. Since all the gas is directed to one small area will this damage the chamber? Will the case above the web expand before any flame cutting? I don't know the answer but I do know it will not blow the gun up like some have claimed.

Some also claim a cracked case is always unsafe. Not true. In the above example and "unsafe" 460 was trimmed to "safe" 45 Colt, 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy.

If the above example is still lost on some here is a simpler example. For this example let's look at the cowboy action shooter shooting 357 lever guns using 38 cases. For reliable feeding some use the same AOL regardless if they use 38 or 357 brass. Since a 357 is a 1/10 of an inch longer than a 38 Spec. how is a 357 case with a 1/10" crack less safe than a 38 loaded to the same AOL?

Back to the OP's original question. Would I fire the pictured case? No, but as pictured, I do not see anything documentable reason the it would be "unsafe" to fire the pictured case.

[M-Tecs]

If we have to worry about a cracked case flame cutting the chamber, then we would have to worry about the chamber being damaged shooting short length cartridges on it as well.

Also. I don't put ammo I know to be deformed into my batch of ammo. If one cracks or deforms during loading, I take it out back and shoot it into my sand bucket, and then chunk the case. I always shoot at least one into the sand bucket anyway so why not one I would other wise throw away?

With the short cases in long chambers the bullet needs to move and the case needs to expand before the gas can vent anywhere. I believe the case expands and seals the chamber before the bullet moves. The black soot you sometimes see on case necks and shoulders is blow back. The only time you normally see blow back is with low pressure smokeless or BP in some thicker harder cases like Starline that haven't been annealed.

In a case with a crack that extends below the base of the bullet, the gas vents out the crack before the bullet moves or the case expands. This is the point of possible damage. This is also not the same as blow back listed above since the case has not expanded or the bullet has not started to move when the gas starts venting out the crack. The real question is does this type of chamber damage ever happen? If so at what pressures? I don't know.

[Cmm_3940]

M-tecs, I am not disagreeing with you and this is an honest question.

In the case with the crack below the bullet, wouldn't the structural integrity of the case below the crack be compromised, since a solid cylinder of brass has a much higher strength than a 379° semicircular strip lining the chamber wall? I have this picture in my mind of the hot gas hitting the crack and 'unzipping' the case back towards the case head.

[Bullshop Junior]

With the short cases in long chambers the bullet needs to move and the case needs to expand before the gas can vent anywhere. I believe the case expands and seals the chamber before the bullet moves. The black soot you sometimes see on case necks and shoulders is blow back. The only time you normally see blow back is with low pressure smokeless or BP in some thicker harder cases like Starline that haven't been annealed.

In a case with a crack that extends below the base of the bullet, the gas vents out the crack before the bullet moves or the case expands. This is the point of possible damage. This is also not the same as blow back listed above since the case has not expanded or the bullet has not started to move when the gas starts venting out the crack. The real question is does this type of chamber damage ever happen? If so at what pressures? I don't know.

I can see where you are coming from on that. On most straight wall cases, I seriously doubt they are creating the pressure required to damage a gun.

With a bottle neck, high pressure round, if the crack was below the base of the neck, I wouldn't shoot it. If it was in the neck, sure, since most of the time the bullet would have to start moving before the has could hit the crack anyway.

[M-Tecs]

M-tecs, I am not disagreeing with you and this is an honest question.

In the case with the crack below the bullet, wouldn't the structural integrity of the case below the crack be compromised, since a solid cylinder of brass has a much higher strength than a 379° semicircular strip lining the chamber wall? I have this picture in my mind of the hot gas hitting the crack and 'unzipping' the case back towards the case head.

Point of correction. That would be 359 degrees. Circles are 360. You are correct that the structural integrity of the case is compromised. No disagreement. After the primers is struck the case is nothing more than a balloon providing a seal. It needs to expand to function properly. This expansion happens at relatively low pressure

High pressure loads will go up to 65,000 psi. Some low pressure loads are under 5,800 PSI and the case still expands so the case adds very little (if anything) to the strength of the barrel. With a crack below the bullet the gas will vent before the case expands and seals the path of least resistance. Beyond that I have no hard answers. I have inspected the one M-14 chamber that fired several hundred cases that fully separated with no detectable damage. I have also had factory loaded rounds crack on first firing. I believe these crack happen as the case is expanding to seal. I have never detected any chamber damage on a high pressure cracks or seen evidence that any gas flowed.

In my early days I always shot my 45 Colt loads until they failed. Some would crack at the neck and some would crack in the center of the case. If they cracked in the center half the case would be sooted.

[jonas302]

Of course I would shoot it I would stick it primer out in my target board and send it to oblivion with a 223

Why anybody would knowingly put that in a gun is beyond comprehension if I need to hear something go bang that bad I can just go hit something with a big hammer

[Teddy (punchie)]

Sorry.........I don't either

Some need to get more common scene. Too much college and not enough practical knowledge.
The question was would you shoot it.

Was the remark about should not be reloading.

Should Ackley have been a teacher a smith and from what I hear an all around nice guy been reloading. Some still think his way of loading is too hot. Look at the actions they blowup.

[Wayne Smith]

I would like to add two points. 1) primers can be punched out and reloaded reliably. I have been doing it for thirty+ years and have never had one fail. I don't even isolate them to know which case they are in any more.

2) To specifically answer the question - I have had numerous split necks in my 25-20 using reformed 32-20 brass. None of those boolits went where I wanted them to go, all were low and unpredictably so. No, I would not shoot it. Yes, the boolit will go down range but, to me, it is a wasted boolit if it does not go where I want it to go. I would break it down, save the components, and toss the brass.

[FLHTC]

Some need to get more common scene. Too much college and not enough practical knowledge.
The question was would you shoot it.

Was the remark about should not be reloading.

Should Ackley have been a teacher a smith and from what I hear an all around nice guy been reloading. Some still think his way of loading is too hot. Look at the actions they blowup.

Damn, how many replies did you read before making those statements?

[scattershot]

I don't believe that round would cause widespread death and destruction, and I think it could be fired. having said that, I have so much .45 brass that I probably wouldn't. With an inertia bullet puller you could salvage the components and pitch the case without too much trouble.

[silverado]

I would shoot it from about 10 or 15 yards away just to see what a 22 does to it

[Larry Gibson]

I don't believe that round would cause widespread death and destruction, and I think it could be fired. having said that, I have so much .45 brass that I probably wouldn't. With an inertia bullet puller you could salvage the components and pitch the case without too much trouble.

Me too. I have seen a lot of split .38s fired w/o a single problem on police ranges. I have also seen a few .45 ACPs just like the one pictured fired w/o any problems either. Both the 45 ACP and .38 SPLs are relatively low psi loads.

I have also fire a lot of Turk 8x57 (as has a whole lot of others) ammo that may have had split case necks before firing and a bunch that certainly did after firing. All w/o apparent harm.

So what does it all mean? As scattershot mentions I also probably wouldn't fire it either unless I absolutely had to.

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

I would not shoot it as it does not meet my personal standards. I don't shoot loads that get seated too deep or brass with visible erosion problems. I see many personal standards are different.

[silverado]

What about when a case gets scraped on the side by the seating die? I do sometimes depending on my mood with 9mm, since it happens often enough, maybe 1 in 100. I may just replace my lee seating die one of these days.

[fatelk]

I see many personal standards are different.
That's for sure. This kind of reminds me of the perennial arguments about tumbling live ammo, decapping live primers, shooting lead in Glocks, etc.. One side says you're an idiot if you even think about it; the other side says I've done it for years with no problems.

Obviously we all have different levels of experience, and varying levels of comfort with pushing the limits to see what we can get away with. I figure it's best to not test those limits unless you have plenty of experience to give you a sense about where you should stop. I might push the limits in tinkering with oddball reloading projects, but I am responsible for my own safety. I have gotten more safety conscious over the years, though.

Personally, no I wouldn't shoot the round in question. I'd yank the bullet out with a pair of pliers (should come easy) and throw it back into the pot, then reuse the powder and primer. I doubt it would do any harm to shoot it, and in my younger days would have in a heartbeat (and have), but to me now it just wouldn't be worth messing with and taking any risk of possible damage (no matter how small). Not a big deal and I'm not judging anyone, just that I personally would scrap it.

I have had a couple case ruptures that really woke me up, though, and taught me the importance of safety glasses. I had an old semi-balloon head black powder .45-70 that I fired in an H&R break open rifle. The base separated completely and released a blast into my unprotected face. I thought I blinded my right eye, but just bruised the eyeball. I was lucky. The rifle wasn't damaged. The other was a TZ80 7.62 NATO fired in an FAL. The base cracked in two places clear through to the primer pocket, resulting in a heck of a lot of gas blasting back at me. I was fine and the rifle was not damaged, but it sure woke me up.

Contrary to what some may think, I do not think that those who would fire said round are incompetent dolts who shouldn't be allowed near gunpowder. :kidding: I think they are just a bit more comfortable with pushing those ragged edges of safety. Been there, done that - not for me anymore. :)

[CPL Lou]

I wouldn't.

CPL Lou

[Newtire]

:kidding:
I agree. Most of the comments here make the old breach loaders sound dangerous.I see a problem in that if that's a 1911, part of the case head is unsupported and when a split forms, it just keeps on splitting. Might be heap big trouble in that gun as much as I remember about them. I don't own one anymore.

Well, then again....I suppose you could solder it together but don't get it real hot and try not to solder the boolit to the case=NOT!

[TXGunNut]

I wouldn't. Trouble finds me often enough, no sense in looking for it.
When I shot large quantities of match quality ammo I would generally retire the entire lot of .38 brass when a certain percentage exhibited small cracks. When the cracks start it's a sign of fatigue, a tired case mouth doesn't give consistent neck tension and it's about to have a big split sooner than later. The cartridge case's job is to contain thousands of pounds of pressure, I don't expect it to do so when it's damaged.
Brass is cheap, eyeballs are expensive.

[williamwaco]

[smilie=b:

[roverboy]

No, I wouldn't shoot it. I'd pull the boolit and scrap the brass. I'm sure the gun would probably take it though.