Shooting double-action vs single action

[DrCaveman]

Ok, i think this is a stupid question but you know the saying, so i guess ill ask

Is there really anybody out there who shoots MORE accurately in double-action than in single-action?

I read some (stupid) writeup about this, where the (unqualified) author made such a claim.

Am i missing something? Or do i get it? Im trying to be open minded here, but having some trouble

[bob208]

you got it stupid and unqualified. I mite throw in mall ninja also.

[Outpost75]

Someone who is trained and proficent in double-action revolver shooting will usually prefer DA also for precision fire, because using the same trigger stroke all the time promotes better sight alignment and trigger control. But if you aren't a wheelgun guy, and use several different guns for carry, with different action types, DAO is probably not for you.

I am a dinoaur. I learned to shoot with the Colt Official Police.

I shoot DA only. My OP is DA only, has no single action sear, the hammer is bobbed and has no full cock notch on it.

I learned to use a straight-through, "row the boat" trigger stroke. The only S&W I have is a .45 Hand Ejector, Military Model of 1950, which is set up similarly and has had its action reworked to "stack" like my Colts.

Old time DA shooters do not "stage" the trigger in DA, that is only for mall ninjas playing at being gunfighters.

I don't shoot bullseyes either, because they cause your eyes to focus on something other than your front sight. Try turning the target around backwards and just hold center of mass on the blank paper, concentrating on sight alignment and trigger control. You will shoot better.

[M-Tecs]

Back in the late 70’s I shot with a couple of the North American PPC team champions. I don’t have a clue if they shot single action better than double but what they could do double action was simply amazing. They only shot double action.

Some interesting perceptive here http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143833

[robertbank]

I shoot DA only in IDPA. When we have Standards out to 35 yards I just stage the trigger and go. No reason I know of that would make the SA trigger be more better.

Take Care

Bob

[monadnock#5]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?36429-Jerry-Miculek-video-s&highlight=jerry+miculek

Here's some videos that speak for themselves.

Trigger staging is a fine thing when done at the range. Definately not to be considered in a high stress situation though.

[monadnock#5]

Uh-oh. Please disregard post #6, as the link has gone dead. [smilie=1:

[Hickory]

If you have ever shot bowling pins or falling plates with a revolver, in order to be competitive you have to shoot double action.

[Rick Hodges]

I was trained with a double action Model 66 S&W and carried it for the first 10 yrs. of my career. We shot the whole qualification course double action. On our indoor ppc course. I shot 580's out of a possible 600 with 38 wadcutters and 550-560's with service ammo (R&P 357 mag. 158 HP's and Winchester 357 mag 140 HP Silvertips).
When we moved outside I would shoot the 50 yd. targets single action. My scores were 5 to 10 points worse outdoors. Go figure? I was taught the steady pull through method ( I love the description "row the boat") and fight to maintain sight alignment. I know of no one who "stacked" the double action trigger.

[Piedmont]

Several years ago I went to a formal range regularly and did lots of group shooting. The closest target frame was 25 yds.. One day I tested DA vs. SA with a J frame .38 Special and multiple groups each way. Groups were later measured and tallied. This DA shooting was slowfire because it was a bullseye target at 25 yards. I was better in DA and the only reason I can come up with is the gun was so small and light that the heavier trigger pull gave my shooting a steadying influence.

When I tried this with a medium or large frame DA revolver I could always shoot smaller groups in SA.

It made me not want to ever buy a S&W Bodyguard revolver because I knew I would never want to cock it.

[357Mag]

Dr -

Howdy !

The .357Mag "N"-frame I carry/practice with/shoot has a fully " bobbed " hammer ( no hammer "spur" ).
While I can shoot ii SA.... if I cock the gun carefully, I mostly never have occasion to shoot the gun SA only.

Beyond that, after years n' years of DA shooting, SA work ( for me ) fells kinda screwy.

So on balance, yeh.... in my circumstance..... even if only by default..... I shoot " better " DA; for all intents & purposes.


With regards,
357Mag

[DrCaveman]

Interesting stories, thanks everybody

I do own one DAO revolver, a little LCR 38, and it is a challenge for me to print tight groups on paper. On the other hand, from the hip i can put 3 of 5 on a paper plate from 7 yds...very quickly

Sixguns by Keith got me wondering about more DA shooting, with his claims he could shoot better fast fire using a DA sixgun than an autoloader. Ive had pretty good times with my smith model 19 shooting double action, but not my other revolvers

I guess my shooting technique is not refined enough to keep things steady all the way through a long heavy trigger pull. Ive been trying my best to relax more while breaking the trigger (single action) and it seems to be helping my accuracy. Shooting double action requires (the way im doing it) more muscle tension, which so far for me has translated to worse groups and less accuracy at longer ranges.

Maybe there are some drills/exercises you could recommend to work past this stage?

Thanks again

[ReloaderFred]

I shot on our department's pistol team for several years in the late 1970's when PPC was really in it's prime. All our shooting was double action, and I even shot the 50 yard line double action. I experimented with both single action and double action at the 50 yard line, and I was much more consistent in double action, and I was a Grand Master shooter back then.

When I was rangemaster for our dept., I taught double action shooting for all shooting with revolvers. A person who practices double action shooting for any length of time will become proficient at it. It's also much safer when shooting under duress. I still prefer to shoot double action when shooting one of my double action revolvers.

Back about 1980, the Air Force was testing some experimental shotgun armor piercing ammunition on the titanium armor the Russians used on the Hind helicopter and I was invited to observe the tests. I asked if they would like to see what a full power .41 Magnum round would do the 3' x 3' titanium, and they said they would. They had been shooting at 100 yards and using high speed film to record the hits, and the Captain in charge asked if I wanted to move up to 25 yards to shoot their armor plate? I told him I'd just shoot it from the 100 yard line and when I took a kneeling position, he commented to one of the Sergeants that I would be lucky to come within 20' of it at that distance. I told him I'd put the round in the upper right hand corner of the plate and he just snorted. I fired the shot double action and it hit about 3" inside the upper right hand corner, so I told him I'd put another one there, "just to give a comparison for 2 shots". The second round hit about 5" inside the upper right hand corner. The Captain walked over to me and shook my hand and told me if he hadn't seen it himself, he would have called anyone telling him about it a liar, especially double action.

I'm not relating the story to demonstrate that I could shoot (back then), only that in my case, I can shoot better double action than single action. These days I'm very active in SASS, so most of my shooting is single action, but I do still shoot double action when able to.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Piedmont]

Something else I have noticed when doing one handed shooting is I don't get the fliers when using the revolver in DA shooting. With a 1911, for example, I will occasionally yank one and get an off shot. I just don't flinch in DA. I think the reason is once you learn DA shooting it is ALL about smoothness and all is lost if you start yanking that trigger, so it gets ingrained somehow and you don't flinch.

[Vulcan Bob]

I shoot em DA most of the time, saving SA for off the bench accuracy testing. Piedmont has a point about flinching, now and again I come down with a case of flinchitis and I think that when fireing double action the shot comes as a bit of a "surprise" to the brain and it does not anticipate the shot with a flinch. Just a personal theory mind you!

[Love Life]

I shoot better in double action than single action all day long.

[clownbear69]

My wife shoots SA I shoot DA but will say shooting DA revolvers from 6-16 had helped a lot shooting striker fire firearms better

[waksupi]

I'm another double action shooter. I can generally do quite a bit better than single action.

[DrCaveman]

I shoot better in double action than single action all day long.

Im liking this discussion. Lovelife, you got any theories as to why you do better at DA?

Edit: ill retract my "stupid" comments from the first post. I underestimated the variety of skills out there

[Love Life]

A constant pull to an expected break. In SA, the pull is so light I have to put a ton of effort into making sure everything is perfecto before touching the trigger. 99% of my revolver shooting is double action because of that. I'll start stacking the trigger as the barrel comes back down on target.

Same thing with rifles. Too light of a trigger and I'm all over the place. I nice 2.5-4.5 lb trigger with a predictable pull and I always do better.

[Rich/WIS]

When I shot my K38 HB on the international targets I always shot SA. I did go to a few impromptu bowling pin/speed shoots and shot my S&W M27 DA because speed was more important than exact bullet placement to bullseye standards. Hunting I shoot SA, like the bullseye targets shot placement is critical and I was much more precise in SA. A lot has to do with the gun, a revolver with a good DA pull is truly a pleasure to use and can be shot very accurately. A bad DA pull is another animal entirely. Best DA pulls, to me at least, were on S&W K frames, although I haven't shot enough Colts to make a fair comparison, and other shooters experience may be just the opposite.

[Stephen Cohen]

I always shot much better double action myself. Those that I trained also shot better double action. It is a matter of rhythm, get that right and your target is toast. I used to shoot steel Rams at 200mtrs double action with my worked Smith 686, didn't hit them all but enough to get a few guys wondering.

[Rick Hodges]

For those who asked how to learn double action shooting: The key to mastering shooting double action, for me, was dry firing. Watching the sight picture at the moment the hammer falls. You can't watch this with live fire, the recoil upsets the sight picture and you don't get the feedback. You fight to keep the sight alignment as perfect as possible at the moment of hammer impact. I practiced until I had blisters on my trigger finger...(factory grooved Model 66 triggers are an abomination for double action shooting)...at least 10,000 dryfires during the academy. Concentrate on that front sight.

[44man]

I think it is just practice. I don't see why one is better then the other.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have several double action only revolvers and I prefer DA shooting when practicing, even when the gun has a SA capability. If you practice DA shooting you can produce groups as good or better than SA fire. The key is consistency and practice. I'm not a great shot but I can often shoot better in DA mode, probably due to greater trigger time and muscle memory with that mode.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I grew up shooting SA revolvers and got into law enforcement where DA revolvers were all anyone used. The difference was the size of the target and the speed at which we were shooting. I don't think I would spend much time trying to knock a pop off a fence post at 25 paces shooting DA. We shot a PPC course which stood for Practical Pistol Course. After a while we realized it was not practical. And in actual shootings the hit ratio of law enforcement officers using DA revolvers was lower than what we wanted to see. In semi-autos there has been a plethora of DA models, one of our local large law enforcement agencies adopted and issued a DA only semi auto but they soon abandoned it. It was a difficult gun to shoot well. In Keith's Sixguns he makes a huge switch from SA revolvers to DA revolvers, there are pics of him shooting a relatively close distance targets presumably firing rapidly. He also shot handguns at very long ranges and we assume he did this firing single action. Keith had a lot of criticisms of the semi auto, the sights, the magazines. And the 45 ACP round lacks the performance at distance compared to the high velocity magnum revolvers he was using.

I shot perfect scores on Dept. qualifications for a decade using a DA revolver and I competed in law enforcement matches with that DA revolver which I carried on duty for 10 years. It was a good gun for duty while making arrests and doing building searches. It was all anybody used. Oddly enough tho, I faced off with a guy that had a machine gun pointed at me in the middle of a lone dark field and placed my front sight on his chest. I knew he had been shot by law enforcement in the past and survived. At that moment I wished I had my SBH instead of my Security Six. Today I carry a SA semi auto 1911. I believe the SA 1911 is superior to the DA revolver in combat. And it is my opinion that the SA revolver is superior to the DA revolver and the SA 1911 in the field.

[Love Life]

44man pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Now if ya'll want a double action pull that is smooth as silk then you need to send your S&W to Mr. Bruce Warren at BC Armory.

[308w]

I carried a 66 for several years on duty then went to a 686, all our qualifications were double action only, and I always shot 100% scores, I always thought the qualification requirements were way too simple. There were a few years that we started the 48 shot qualifications off with 3 shots on 2 different targets from 25 yards, the rangemasters at the time would then call the line cold and go see where the 6 shots hit from 25 yards, if you didnt have at least 3 out of the 6 in the very generous scoring part of the silhouette they would make you start over, seems they figured if you didn't hit at least 3 of 6 to start there was no need firing the other 42 rounds, and they acted like ammo was gold. But in any event several times my 3 shots on each target could be covered with a tennis ball, I always thought that was pretty good double action shooting, but If I was to shoot a rattlesnake in the head or go to make any other precision shot I always prefered the light crisp single action trigger pull, still do, Just my 2 pennies.....

[DougGuy]

I'm striker fired here for EDC, so every shot is DAO so to speak. I practice both right and left handed, once you learn the feel of the trigger it comes second nature.


For those who asked how to learn double action shooting: The key to mastering shooting double action, for me, was dry firing. Watching the sight picture at the moment the hammer falls. Concentrate on that front sight.

THIS^^^^^^ Is -the- trick to mastering the single action revolver as well. No one single bit of information will help you anywhere NEAR as much as dry firing and keeping the sights motionless.

For a Ruger, drop a Wolff trigger return spring in it, leave the sear/notch engagement factory stock, and fire fire fire fire fire it until the front sight does not move.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm not a competitive shooter by any means - am old and now just plink, kill pop cans and maybe a varmint once in a while. I have shot for 50 + years and was brought up on SA revolvers. Until a few years ago, my primary SAs were BP - mainly '51 Colt Navies. Then I discovered "the new fangled cartridges".

Now, I'm having a ball reloading and shooting vintage revolvers - a 1910 Colt Army Special, several vintage Smiths, etc. I still enjoy shooting SA and have a New Vaquero. I've always admired those who could shoot DA and have been working hard at it when I shoot with my vintage revolvers. My favorite is my 1952 M & P and I can see the improvement in my shooting in DA . . but I'll never make "marksman" rating I'm sure! LOL

As an older person looking back . . I wished that I had had the opportunity to shoot DA and become more proficient in it. Yes, I still shoot a lot of SA and probably enjoy it most . . . but if I could give one piece of advice to a younger person who is interested in shooting revolvers . . . it would be to learn to shoot well in both SA and DA. There are a lot of fun shooting events available today and has already been mentioned, you really need to know how to shoot in DA.

As far as which is more accurate? Hmmm . . it all depends on who is behind the revolver. Like anything else . . . if you take the time to "learn" your revolver, I'm sure there are those who can do extremely well in DA . . I know I'm not ever going to be one of them! LOL

[DrCaveman]

Lots of good stuff said here

My dad used to recommend his tv-watching practice of dry firing his colt trooper. The trick was to place a quarter on the front sight blade. Squeeze through, dont let the quarter fall off. As skill improved, do the same while holding a sight picture. Then, for extra credit, try the same thing with the quarter on its edge

Never got the quarter on edge to stay. Not sure that he ever did either.

I liked the drill though, and i like the results you guys are showing. I think i may have to start doing that again

My take on all this: DA can prove every bit as "useful" at typical handgun range (<50 yds) for hitting your fleshy target. 0.75" groups may not be had, but who needs them for practical purposes anyway?

SA for the long range, sitting against a tree sort of precision work

Seem about right?

[Love Life]

I took the old revolver out to day to figure this out. For me, the long steady pull of the DA trigger facilitates a consistent grip for me. It's second nature. When shooting single action, I have to put a lot of effort into my grip.

I grew up on revolvers, and then Glocks.

I shoot revolvers in DA and Glocks better than a 1911 of SA revolver.

[Animal]

I found that I shoot my revolvers more accuratly in double action. The long steady pull, to the audible cylinder stop, seems to keep my muzzle in the right direction. I don't know why, it just does. Perhaps I don't anticipate recoil as much.

[DrCaveman]

I took the old revolver out to day to figure this out. For me, the long steady pull of the DA trigger facilitates a consistent grip for me. It's second nature. When shooting single action, I have to put a lot of effort into my grip.

I grew up on revolvers, and then Glocks.

I shoot revolvers in DA and Glocks better than a 1911 of SA revolver.

Thanks for doing that. Ever since i got my 1911, ive been getting better and better at shootng it, and i give some credit to the excellent grip angle, some credit to the tight fit of the gun, but i mostly thought it was the inherent clean single action trigger break of the 1911 design.

As has been said, it probably depends on what you practice with. But....if people can achieve bonafide BETTER shooting using DA, then it says a lot about the limitations that i thought i was seeing. Basically that they are just in my head.

Next question, what about a beast like the s&w X-frame? Lugging that huge cylinder into place as you "row the boat" exerts a lot more rotational inertia on the gun than say a s&w m&p polymer frame autoloader.

[Love Life]

Somebody else will have to chime in on the X-frame.

[SOFMatchstaff]

RELOADERFRED....I LOVE it.
I could tell a similar story right down to the caliber and the AF Capt.

you left out the part I was waiting for, what did the 41 do to the Hind????

I shot PPC , DA only Python, same era, no problem with a consistent 585+- and I still have a DA only Model 58, and the Sadowski Python.

[dave_g]

I think I agree with Love Life in that my grip is more consistent when shooting da. Shooting single action I can get good groups but I really have to concentrate. I have difficulty maintaining my sight picture when the hammer falls. My trigger finger feels too long and it's at the wrong angle.

I don't have that problem with any of my autoloaders though.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I shoot faster and tighter using SA. Doesn't matter caliber or frame size. I've shot that way since the the early 70s. Lots of rounds through Single Sixes and Blackhawks. Switching to a DA revolver I shoot the same way. I just concentrate on the front sight and trigger pull. The hammer is not something I think about, its always ready when I get a sight picture. Of course I've put some miles on a Winchester 62A and a 94. Same thing, the hammer just jumps into place when the rifle gets raised.

I don't knock DA shooting. I think I'm SA only due to high volume on SA revolvers. I do often use a BH in .45 Colt for SD. I might worry about that if I was a strong DA shooter.

[Love Life]

The common theme here is practice.

[lefty o]

with most i prefer to shoot single action, but with my lil ruger sp101, i suck shooting that thing single action. double action i put 'em right where i want.

[ReloaderFred]

SOFMatchstaff,

Another member asked me the same question in a PM. Here is my reply:

It did surprisingly well. I was carrying Remington factory 210 gr. JSP for my duty load at the time and my Model 57 has a 6" barrel. The first bullet bulged through and barely split the armor plate, but the second bullet made an even bigger bulge and made a split the entire width of the impact point. The bullet didn't punch through, but it broke the integrity of the titanium. I was thinking at the time that if I had shot it from 25 yards, it just may have punched all the way through, but they were trying to simulate the distance a Hind would be flying over troops on the ground, so they settled on the 100 yard distance.

The round they were testing was a series of short 3/16" rods that were sharpened to a point and epoxied into a slug of sorts. The middle rod was slightly longer and that helped to punch a hole in the titanium. It was kind of innovative for the time, but they didn't adopt it, since most troops don't carry a shotgun into battle.

I used to have a picture of the slug and the holes in the titanium, but they were lost in a divorce, along with just about everything else I owned at the time.......

Fred

[BCRider]

Caveman, I see you struck a nerve with this question. Working on the 3 page of replies in only two days is darn near a Cast Boolits All Time Record.... :D

I'll just pipe in and say that I've caught myself doing better in DA than SA as well. In fact my best SA groups with either my DA's or SA's are only as good as my better DA groups.

I know it can seem like a crazy claim to someone that shoots primarily in SA. But for those of us that had to learn to do well in DA for competitions I've seen more than a few that can do as well or better in DA than they do in SA.

As a bonus the focus on doing a nice smooth pressure build to get good accuracy in DA means that the DA revolver shooter can do well with ANY trigger. We simply can't be a good DA revolver shooter with anything less than good trigger skills. The DA revolvers will show up ANY bobbles really quickly and really badly.

[300savage]

i grew up shooting everything single action and never took the time nor felt the need to master double.
so obviously there is no question for me, or for untold numbers of jackrabbits, coyotes, feral dogs, hogs and a few deer. probably some stuff i have forgotten in there as well. mastering a single action trigger pull is exactly the the same as for a rifle. your arms create the stock and you apply the last ounce of pressure when the sight picture all comes together.
i have seen a few folks i could not touch in getting hits at close range with them shooting DA, very, very impressive.
but i also have not seen anyone yet i could not beat at 25yards and further when i was shooting SA and they were not. i guess that dont prove much, but thats been my experiance.

[trapper9260]

I think it is just practice. I don't see why one is better then the other.

I feel the same way.If it was not for practice would not know what one likes the best.I have both SA and DA and it depends on what the use of it is for the way I see it.I use mainly the DA like a SA but once in awhile i shoot it like a SA but for the SA I have one in a 22lr that I use for trapping and if I do not want to load the gun full then I just put the number of rounds that I want and count the clicks and then I am good to go.because when i pull the hammer back i will have the first round there for me to use.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Size and distance of the target and rate of fire makes all the difference. Five 12 inch steel plates at 15 feet are going to be hit quicker one handed (duelist) with a DA revolver than with a SA revolver. But an IPSC target at 100 - 175 yards away is going to require the cocking back of the hammer.

We need to clean up the language here specifying DA and SA revolvers and DA and SA semi auto, I'm assuming we are talking strickly about revolvers?