Olde Eynsford loading recomendations ? [Archive]

Chill Wills

03-08-2014, 08:34 PM

GOEX, by way of Hodgdon Powder Co has donated powder to the upcoming American Creedmoor match competitors. I will be bringing it with me to hand out.

Chris Hodgdon has expressed interest in what kind of target accuracy this powder is capable of. I told him I would get it in the hands of some rifle cranks and find out. As you may know, Swiss powder has no competition currently in the accuracy matches like NRA Black Powder Target Rifle and NRA BPCR - Silhouette. 99% + riflemen shoot Swiss because of its accuracy and ease of developing a target level load for their rifle. It is expensive yet cost effective when compared to burning up time, lead and less expensive powder looking for a Target load that just ain't there. With Swiss you develop a target load within the first lb of powder and you know you still have the remaining 24 or 49 lbs to shoot in matches. No fuss - no waste. This is how it has been since GOEX left PA in the late 1990's.

So............ here comes an American made powder. GOEX Express. It was good. Almost able to compete with Swiss but no cigar. GOEX stopped production of Express a few years back do to ????
Now, GOEX is producing Old Eynsford. Chris Hodgdon tells me their intention is to compete head to head with Swiss on the target firing line. They have high hopes. I do too! I would love to have a choice and I would love to shoot American made powder!

What say you? If you have shot Olde Eynsford in target conditions, can this powder compete? And, what special needs does this powder require for fine accuracy when loading it?
I have never loaded rounds with this new powder and I have no idea what advice to pass on to those that try it. I will pass on anything you might offer in the way of advice. Thanks in advance. -Michael Rix

Nobade

03-08-2014, 09:41 PM

Funny you would post this today. I just got back from the range after my first try with Old Eynsford 1 1/2 Fg in the 45-70. Either this is the easiest powder to work with I have ever seen or I got really lucky first try. 70gr. weighed then thrown with a Redding measure, drop tubed and compressed about .150" with a .030" poly wad. NEI Postell boolit, cast from stick on wheelweights. Lubed with Pearl lube. Seated with minimal neck tension to touch the lands of my C. Sharps '75.

I started at 300M, shooting in high (15-25 mph) switchy winds. It was easily holding 1 MOA vertical, and the more I shot the better my wind calls got and I tightened up the horizontal. Moved out to 385M, same deal. Couldn't hardly miss. Moved to 500M. Still holding about 6 inches for vertical. Last 8 shots went into a 6X7 inch group.

I fired 30 shots, using three breaths with the blow tube between shots. Didn't have to wipe the bore at all. Afterward, cleanup was fast and easy. One wet patch showed very light fouling, then another that came out almost clean. Third was dry and that was it - clean rifle. That is less fouling than anything I had ever tried. I am impressed - accurate, powerful, burns super clean. Humidity was about 20% today so not a terrible test of fouling control, but still this stuff really looks promising. That was too easy - fine tuning will come next to see if I can tweak it to be any better but it sure looks like it's working well now.

-Nobade

Lead pot

03-08-2014, 10:24 PM

C-W

I been using this OE powder since Jerry started stocking it. The photo below is the best loads I have worked up using a scoped 21# Shiloh.
I know I been told well that is not during a National match situation, but accuracy is accuracy match or not.
Those where 5 shots at a close 135 yards but I have also shot many large 20 shot groups that stayed in the 3" X ring at 200.
This powder does not take the back seat against any powder I have used.
It gets two thumbs up from me!!

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1318_zps39db44dd.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1318_zps39db44dd.jpg.html)

Don McDowell

03-08-2014, 10:40 PM

Mike, all of my 200 yd midrange at Raton was shot with OE, and most of the others in the midrange, but I did switch, but turns out day two of the position was fired with a broken firing pin... But be that as it may, those 200 yd targets were fired with patched bullets and no fouling control other than a blowtube.
Treat the OE like you do your Swiss, and be prepared to save 8$ a can from there on out.

Chill Wills

03-09-2014, 12:08 PM

Nobade Thanks for the report. It sounds like you did do well....0.150" compression worked for you. What primer? So far just too little data to see a trend but if I can get a little info it would be a place to start. Of the three replies so far, all reports are hopeful !

Lead pot I agree. accuracy is accuracy and your targets look promising. I know you burn a lot of powder and know a thing or two for sure. Can you provide any specifics as to compression likes and opinion on hot primer v mild? Maybe what size/grade difference there might be advantage with, if you know yet? BTW- thanks for sharing the info!

Hey Don, I think I remember you saying when we shot that match at Byers, you were shooting this Olde Eynsford and also the KIK maybe, if I got that right???? Again, if you want to pass any likes or sweet-spot compression or component info to the info pool, I would gladly tell the guys I give the sample powder too. It is my hope that after this sample powder gets worked over by the American Creedmoor Cup riflemen we get some data back from them too!

For what it is worth, I was thinking 1f and 1.5F powder for the 1000y cartridges would be good when I first discussed this Hodgdon Powder. It turned out that GOEX did not have a case of 1.5F to supply for testing so sent us 2F, which will be fine too. I am sure it will be well suited to the more often shot smaller case size used in mid-range type shooting.

-Michael Rix

Chill Wills

03-09-2014, 12:28 PM

Nobade

03-09-2014, 03:05 PM

Nobade, I forgot and wanted to ask you.... What is going on with the Albuquerque BPCR guys?? Did everyone (like we all do) grow old and move on? I knew and rubbed elbows with a lot of guys from around there over the years ......? Too bad I lost touch with them.

Nobade Thanks for the report. It sounds like you did do well....0.150" compression worked for you. What primer? So far just too little data to see a trend but if I can get a little info it would be a place to start. Of the three replies so far, all reports are hopeful !

Hi,
Primers were CCI large rifle military ones. I don't like them for this application because they are very hard and sometimes give misfires. But they are all I have at the moment, so they get used.

The BPCR matches at the city range are dead. So is all silhouette out there. When the Volcano Ramslammers disbanded, they handed their targets over to Zia R&P since we were shooting highpower silhouette out there. But that was short lived, and out of a club of 1700 members we couldn't get two to show up for a match. So the BPCR guys used our targets for a time, and then they dwindled down and only one was left of them. I guess he doesn't go anymore because those targets are still laying on the rails waiting to be shot at. On a more positive note, a couple of guys and myself are wanting to revive the sport here. We plan on practicing at Zia R&P for a time, probably having swinger matches in conjunction with my regularly scheduled cast bullet (boolit) match. I hope some day we can get enough guys together to go back to the City range and shoot those targets again, but that may be a while off. I don't have any customers left who care about silo, they all have moved to three gun or precision tactical matches. Not many of us old time holdouts out there any more, I guess.

-Nobade

LynC2

03-09-2014, 03:16 PM

Chill Wills,
I recently bought a Browning BPCR from TexasMac and contacted Fred Seybert to see if they were still doing any silhouette shooting here in Albuquerque. He informed me that they had disbanded the club due to people moving, dying, or various other reasons and didn't have enough members left to be viable. So the club was disbanded. I'm bending Nobade's ear about maybe starting something at the Zia range, even if it is only the two of us.

Ha Ha, looks like Nobade and I were answering at the same time!

freedom475

03-09-2014, 04:44 PM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97578&d=1393187436

Fire formed cases, no resizeing, bullets hand seated.

I tried the powder in my 45-70 from around 62gr all the way to 78gr...the best loads were with minimum compression, and 24" drop tube.

I think I was using Fed150 LP primers for this group...but it may have been WinLR's

LynC2

03-09-2014, 04:59 PM

freedom475,
That is some good shooting and excellent information to add to my where to start data. I'm still waiting on my bore diameter PP mold to try out my new rifle. :grin:

John Boy

03-09-2014, 07:37 PM

First of all, I am a fan of the 2009 lot of KIK.
Here are some numbers that I clocked last year:
45-70 Mini Groove 530gr -70gr
KIK 1.5 ............Olde E 1.5
AVG -1148.2.....1256.8
SD-19.8 ..........27.1

45-90 RCBS 82084
543gr -75gr
Swiss 3F........ Olde E 3F
AVG-1343.5.....1363.75
SD-12.7..........11.5

38-72
L375167 - 275gr
68gr Olde E 2F
AVG - 1504
SD - 34.8

* For each caliber - shot 5 rounds with no tubing or patching
* No accuracy decrease shooting at a 20" plate at 200yds
* The foul for Swiss & Kik was nearly the same - moist and less than Olde E
* The foul for Olde E was more moist and there was more foul in the bore

Here some density & sieve ratios I posted on the Shiloh forum ...
www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20719&p=226654

Note the amount of 40-50-60 mesh grains held in the FFFg sieve ratio. This is why IMHO - Olde E has higher velocities than Swiss

Don McDowell

03-09-2014, 07:56 PM

Chill, with the OE, it works very well from zero to around 1/4 inch compression. It works alright with a lot of compression but doesn't hold as tight over the chronograph.
KIK treat it just like Goex Express.

Lead pot

03-09-2014, 08:01 PM

Michael That particular group was shot using 93.5 grains of 2FG Olde Eynsford compressed .260". One milk carton wad over the powder, 1/8" lube wad, .046" card and a 1/16" cork under a elliptical KAL Mould at 501 grain 1.505" long with 1/16 L/T alloy.
The rifle has a 1/17 ROT.
I also have a load of 82 grains of the 2Fg OE that I use the same wad stack but a light .110 compression that shoots better out to the 1K than the .260 compression load does.
The compression with this powder seems like a sine wave a several different compression levels, but it favores light compression in the .44.
Cant give you any sound report for the 1.5 OE. I haven't shot it much cause the 2F is shooting so well so I settled on it.

Kurt
Forgot the primer is the WLR

Boz330

03-10-2014, 10:46 AM

Mike, I had good luck with OE 2F in a 45-70. The load was Starline brass, 68gr, compressed .250, 060 poly wad topped with a Lyman Postel cast 20-1. Primer was a Remington LPP with over primer wad made from 3X5 card stock. I worked from 65gr up to 73gr but the 68gr worked the best.
I only shot one mid range match with it and had my best scores to date with it at Camp Atterbury last fall. I only bought 2 pounds originally to try but as soon as finances shore up I'll have a case on the way. The clean up also seemed easier than Swiss because the fouling seemed softer.

Bob

Chill Wills

03-10-2014, 11:25 AM

Thank you for the detailed replies! Sounds like the 2F will be useful too so that is good. I wonder what the lott to lott differences will turn out to be?

So far, happily, all your news has been good about this Olde Eynsford powder! Sounds like from zero to about 0.250" compression should be tried and primers like LPP- Rem or Fed Or CCI-br-II would be a good place to start. It also sounds like this powder it can make some velocity unlike some others that just does not have the zip.
John Boy's SD numbers sound just wrong!?!? Could it be that those are the ES numbers??? Even then that would be a large number for ES! John Boy, I question that data. Could you take a look again please?

I need to get on the road and head to the match. I will be camped in warmer country by tomorrow night! Thanks again for the data but please keep the posts going while I am gone. It is very interesting and useful. I am sure anyone contemplating trying OE will find your experiences a great benefit. Thanks again! -Michael Rix

John Boy

03-10-2014, 11:50 AM

Don McDowell

03-10-2014, 11:56 AM

Mike the difference between the first and second lots haven't been noticeable. I just got another case before the first of the year, but didn't check the lot number, and haven't fired any of it yet.
Robert G has shot some of it, and I gave a can of 2f to Cody, don't know if he's tried it yet or not.
Keep us posted on the Cup.

Red River Rick

03-10-2014, 01:52 PM

Lead pot

03-10-2014, 05:03 PM

Rick.

That is the .44 .432 Elliptical I had you make for the .44-2-5/8 bn a few years back. It came a little to long for the 1/19 Rot and wouldn't shoot for sour apples past 500 yards so I oiled it up and put it away till I got the .44 with a 1/17 rot and it's shooting quite well in it. I think I still have the final drawing before you cut that mould.
I used it all last summer and got some long range loads worked out to us for this season.

Kurt

Lead pot

03-10-2014, 05:43 PM

Here is a 3 shot ladder group I worked up using 3Fg OE powder for the .45-90 using a 513 gr PP bullet Brent Danielson prolate designed and I had a mould made for it. I worked with this bullet last fall and this winter but I have not tested it past 200 yards. I sent a bunch to a friend to test on his long range but I think he must have threw them in his lead pot and melted them down :-D
These where shot at 200 yards using the Shiloh #2 Creedmoor Silhouette with a 1/18 ROT and the same wad combination as the .44 above.
The compression on the best group was .290 and opened back up at 325" compression. The far right target was a 5 shot group @ 200 yards. All of those groups are with the same sight setting. You can see a pattern starting between the last two groups If it wasn't for the fat thumb pressure they would have been very good groups.
I haven't used the 3Fg in the .44's yet.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1551_zps5d4bd3ab.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1551_zps5d4bd3ab.jpg.html)

Don McDowell

03-10-2014, 06:15 PM

That's not bad shooting for a 45 :brokenima

Lead pot

03-10-2014, 07:05 PM

Don,

I been working with that rifle with the intend of using it for the silhouette game I plan on starting this year because places like Friendship and Alma MI are about a 1/2 day drive besides I just cant see the long range targets and the embarrassing cross shot at just about every other relay I shoot.
That .45/2.4 will just have to do till I get my .44-75 build.

Don McDowell

03-10-2014, 07:23 PM

Nothing wrong with that Kurt, altho I think the 44-77 would be an ideal sillywet gun.
Sure be glad when they get those reamers done.

Lead pot

03-10-2014, 07:28 PM

That little .44-77 would make a great iron critter rifle but I'm not changing the sights again. I need that rifle to refill the freezer again next fall :)

Don McDowell

03-10-2014, 08:49 PM

Well you just need two of em :drinks:

Gunlaker

03-11-2014, 10:39 AM

What sort of velocity SD's are the rest of you guys seeing with OE?

Sometimes I wonder about the value of the more expensive powders. I've used a lot of Goex Express, but can get ten shot SD's in the 4 to 5 fps with plain old Goex. The premium powders definitely have a velocity edge, and maybe better fouling though.

Chris.

Lead pot

03-11-2014, 11:49 AM

Chris.

I don't pay much attention to velocity unless I need it for pit safety some ranges require. I have two and killed one with a low shot and haven't bothered to fix it again. I look at what the load does with the final group.

montana_charlie

03-11-2014, 12:16 PM

John Boy's SD numbers sound just wrong!?!? Could it be that those are the ES numbers??? Even then that would be a large number for ES! John Boy, I question that data. Could you take a look again please?
He said he got those numbers with no patching or tubing. So, each shot didn't go through a 'managed' bore.
Then, in his general comments, he said the OE leaves more fouling in the bore. Without 'management', that can be expected to impact on the SD ... and ES.

Don McDowell

03-11-2014, 02:28 PM

Chris the first batch of this I tested I didn't pay much attention to compression, or fouling control, but the extreme spread in the 45-70 shooting a postell was something long 25 fps.
When I got to working on the loads I wanted to take to Raton, this chrono would spit out something like 1310, and then two or three shots it'ld just say dupl, then it might throw out something like 1305 etc.
It seems that with something from zero to 1/4 inch or so of compression it is very even.

I shot a 50 shot string thru the 38-40 bisley clone, with no cleanup during the run, and the last ten were still within 50 fps of the first ten, and that poor little swinger was still getting the snot pounded out of it at 25 yds.

Chill Wills

03-25-2014, 10:30 PM

Can we revive this to help track what can be learned to accurately load and shoot this powder?

I made sure I came home from the Arizona Creedmoor match with 2 lbs of the 2F Olde E that was given out as door prizes.

Luckily a last minute chance to go to the range today came up so last night I hastily put some loads together with this Olde Eynsford powder.
I had 23 cases handy for my Winchester 1885 45-70 so loaded this up as a place to start.

The rifle has known accuracy so anything I do with new loads and powder can be piggybacked off what I know works.
As an example, I used a known bullet, seated to a known length with a known primer and then just filled in the middle; .... As in Olde E and compression, or lack of compression.

I am very light on real data but I am pleased with the start I got. Yahoo!

No picture- I loaded 3 cases with the Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet and 62.5gr of powder for a no compression load

Pic#1 then 6 cases with the Creedmoor 545gr bullet and 67gr of powder for about 0.120" compression

Pic#2 then 7 cases with the Hoch 545gr bullet and 72.5gr of powder for about 0.190" compression
Pic #3 last was 7 cases with the Creedmoor 545gr bullet and 72.5gr of powder for about 0.245" compression

Nothing shot poorly! I used the 3-shot zero compression load at 50 yards just to make sure I was going to get on at 200 yards with the rest.
100520100521100522

I have an idea that I want to go back and shoot some loads using between 0.100" and 0.200" compression. The 0.250" compression load might be starting to open but I really need to shoot more before coming to that conclusion!

The fact that the wind was blowing and the groups run wide does not effect my interest in the good vertical shown. Also, I never rule out that I might have pulled a shot out of the test group as well.
Good Start! I will make time to test with the Chronograph next time out now that I know that the powder is worthy.
-Michael Rix

Don McDowell

03-26-2014, 12:33 AM

Keep the development coming Mike. I think when it gets warmer you will really come to appreciate the easy to deal with fouling. Seems as tho most folks in the 45-70 are using right at 68-69 grs with the bullets over 500 grs.

Boz330

03-26-2014, 09:28 AM

68gr was the sweet spot with a Postel in my Pedersoli 74 with Starline brass. The compression was right at .250. Even 2gr either side wasn't hateful but 68 gave the best 10rd group. That was at a 100yd but the first mid range match bore that out. Haven't shot it since and I'm almost out of the initial 2lbs that I picked up to try. I'll get a case on order as soon as Uncle Sugar gets finished picking my pocket.

Bob

Lead pot

03-26-2014, 11:22 AM

Mike.

Start with zero compression and work up with a two grains ladder load. Usually less than .300" compression, less than 20 rounds you will see where to start refining the load. I don't shoot the short .45-70 case often. I'm just starting loads for the .45-70 for the silhouette shoots I want to start attending this year.
You can see how the vertical develops in the few pictures I posted. I don't concern my self with the horizontals to much they are mostly wind calls or fat fingering. When I see 3 out of 5 shot cut I work on refining that load.

Kurt

Chill Wills

03-26-2014, 04:31 PM

Kurt, Great minds think alike! Were I to give you advice on working up a load it would almost be word for word. It will be at least a week or more before I can even look at this project again.
Michael

Lead pot

03-26-2014, 06:39 PM

Michael

I'm just starting on a new 513 gr .45 bullet the 514 prolate PP bullet of Brent Danielson design, the one I used on the 4 targets above with a load of 78 to 81 gr 3Fg OE.
I shot 5 shot group of 81.5 gr of 3F OE just at 130 yards in my back yard today and a nickel just about covered it. That's enough to make me walk over a chisel plowed field in the morning before the frost thaws out and put up a target @ 700 yds to see if it holds up. :)

Chill Wills

03-26-2014, 08:31 PM

Wow Kurt. That is strong encouragement! It makes me want to go out and shoot my next test loads right away! Patients- Patients ! I have to wait.

Lead pot

03-26-2014, 09:37 PM

most likely just a fluke

seekersoftheredmist

04-01-2014, 02:04 AM

Is there anybody in southwestern VA that has any of this powder (OE) for sale? id love to try a pound before i buy a case.

Nobade

04-01-2014, 08:14 AM

Is there anybody in southwestern VA that has any of this powder (OE) for sale? id love to try a pound before i buy a case.

Not Southwestern, but have you tried that big powder house in Winchester that sells to all the skirmishers? They ought to have some.

-Nobade

seekersoftheredmist

04-03-2014, 04:26 AM

Not Southwestern, but have you tried that big powder house in Winchester that sells to all the skirmishers? They ought to have some.

-Nobade . Theyre about 7 hours away and with the price of gas now days thats a hefty haul. If anyone knows of any OE in even surrounding states that
would be closer im open for suggestions. Thanks guys.

Don McDowell

04-03-2014, 09:42 AM

seekersoftheredmist

04-05-2014, 12:17 AM

Why not just order it from Powder Inc., Grafs, Buffalo Arms etc? As you said the price of gas is pretty much lost in the dust when compared to shipping cost. Order 10 lbs to cheapen things up a bit, it'll take a couple of cans probably to find and prove your sweetspot load anyway, and if you don't like it, you could always donate it for a prize at a local shoot of some sort.

Don, I am trying to stay cost effective. Working on a tight budget here. If money was NOT an issue , id just order a case like you were saying. But i want to make sure what i get is what i like b4 sinking some hard to get funds into a "poke". thanks.

Don McDowell

04-05-2014, 12:27 AM

A case is 25 lbs.
Order 5lbs then, that's 127$ to your door from Powder Inc.

Lead pot

04-05-2014, 11:05 AM

Don, I am trying to stay cost effective. Working on a tight budget here. If money was NOT an issue , id just order a case like you were saying. But i want to make sure what i get is what i like b4 sinking some hard to get funds into a "poke". thanks.

Buying just one can of powder is not cost efficient. I would visit a range where the cowboy shooters shoot and ask to buy or trade a can. Just about any range has a shooter that shoots blk powder. I don't know where you live, but Gander Mountain has blk powder and you will find them in a lot of places. Get together with a bunch of guys and make a group buy through the places Don put down.
You will get a pound of blk powder for less than a pound of smokeless.

Here is one more place to get just one can http://addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html

Exal

04-05-2014, 11:57 AM

Hey, just a quick question. I am just starting to get into all this bpcr shooting and need to know which powder to get I have narrowed down to either swiss or this old eynsford in 1.5 fg. The caliber I'm shooting is a 45-70. Which one do y'all think would be worth getting for the prices. I currently have some goex and elephant powder for muzzle loading, but think swiss or old e will work better.

Lead pot

04-05-2014, 12:16 PM

Exal

04-05-2014, 12:19 PM

That's what I was kind of thinking, but does anyone know if you can mix and match brands of powder from bac, say like five cans of each

Don McDowell

04-05-2014, 01:49 PM

Don't know about BACO, but Powder Inc will mix and match so long as the orders come to 5,10 or 25 lbs. Grafs will mix and match and will ship in odd numbered lots if that's what you want.
I'ld also recommend some 2f of both brands and throw in some Schuetzen as well.

semtav

04-09-2014, 08:10 PM

Michael
I don't know if you are looking for any more input about the OE, but I found the same as several others. Zero compression and BR2 primers work great.

My load development in my Browning 40-65 consisted of loading 5 shells with 60 grains OE which resulted in a shorter OAL than I like for my bullet, so I loaded 3 more up with 62 grains and that brought it up to my desired OAL with no compression. the 5 shells resulted in a 6 inch vertical pattern at 100 yards. The 3 shells resulted in a very tight cloverleaf. that was the whole of my testing and that load shot as good or better than any load I spent months working up and was pressure tested at the next gong match with excellent results.

Chill Wills

04-09-2014, 11:06 PM

Michael
I don't know if you are looking for any more input about the OE, but I found the same as several others. Zero compression and BR2 primers work great.

Thank you, Thank you! Yes, I am looking for more info. Your timing was good.
I hope to get out and shoot some test loads as soon as I can. I was starting my compression at about 0.050" for the test but I see that I really need to begin at Zero! I will sneak out to the shop tonight and load some more at zero compression - Thank you. -Michael BTW- are you doing OK with the lube?

semtav

04-10-2014, 08:21 PM

BTW- are you doing OK with the lube?

I hate to admit it, but I did so little shooting last year and none this winter that I didn't even try it. I left it here where I summer and when I read your question I looked around and it was sitting right beside me. I'll give it a try as soon as I get some of my shooting stuff moved up for the summer

Chill Wills

04-12-2014, 11:24 AM

I was able to get out and shoot a number of test loads at 200 yards yesterday. I was very impressed by the range of good accuracy with loads compressed from zero to .275"
This Olde Eynsford has a future. Tho the best groups of Olde E did not beat out my match load of Swiss tested at the same time yesterday, many of the loads show great promise! How good they are is still too early to know.

This is because too little testing was done to draw any hard conclusions. On the other hand, I am optimistic about retesting some of the better loads. I will post a few more specifics later when I get a chance.

;-)I will say that Olde E did produce more than one sub-minute groups..... Hummmm! Is that possible?
Michael Rix

Don McDowell

04-12-2014, 12:30 PM

Michael, this powder is some pretty interesting stuff. It's got a future, and I'm thinking once some decent shooters start cleaning up some match awards it'll catch on right quick.

TXGunNut

04-12-2014, 01:58 PM

Hmmmm....looks like I need to burn thru some KIK to make room for some OE. Seems I have a 45-90 around here somewhere whose one talent so far is burning thru large amounts of powder.
Personally I think buying one pound of BP is hardly cost-effective or practical. A pound of black just doesn't last very long with me. I'm a bit of a tightwad myself and nothing less than 10 lbs makes sense but for occasional shooting of an unfamiliar powder five pounds could work. Since Powder Inc et al let you mix & match there's little reason not to spread the shipping costs over at least 10 lbs.

Lead pot

04-13-2014, 10:38 AM

:) One pound is only 64 rounds for me :) hardly worth getting the bore dirty.

Gussy

04-13-2014, 04:01 PM

:) One pound is only 64 rounds for me :) hardly worth getting the bore dirty.

But just think of all the smoke and noise you will make....

Lead pot

04-13-2014, 09:46 PM

Gussy I kinda parked that one for a while. Too many complaints :)

Chill Wills

04-16-2014, 01:34 PM

Basically, I am a tight wad.

Just so you understand when looking at this, mine is one of a match (target accuracy) point of view. Some of what I think is important may not be to you. BP that is not consistent case to case is expensive at any price.

Shooting Swiss has been a sure thing since the first case that came my way more than a dozen years ago. Swiss powder is pricey maybe, but it is cheaper than shooting a lesser powder at half the price. How? The short answer is its very short load development needs. Once you understand how to load it, each new lot or batch can be loaded like the last or very close to it. This equals very little time, powder, lead and headaches spent on trying to figure out a new powder batch. Back in the days of Louisiana GOEX and the Elephant powder from Brazil, each new batch out of the plant could be anything and was often nothing. Nothing to write home about, for sure!

Pushing ten years ago, GOEX tried to offer a powder to compete with Swiss for match accuracy. GOEX Express was an improvement over their mail line powder but not the solution and selling at the price of the imported Swiss, by now the gold standard, Express really did not go anywhere. It was dropped presumably due to poor sales.
Enter Hodgdon; they picked up GOEX in some fashion I think, I do not know their inside dealings. That was either going to be a good thing or a bad thing for BP shooters. One always wonders what will happen when a large entity starts buying up, as in this case, all the powder makers and rolls them in under one roof.

Maybe it will be good for Black Powder shooters. I got a taste of the Olde Eynsford last week and then again with more depth Saturday. I am only seeing good things with what I shot! You’ve stayed with me this far so if you are interested in details they are as follows.

With less than 100 shots fired this is what I think I know so far. In a 45-70 using 545 grain and 555 grain bullets from Hoch and Paul Jones respectively, really small groups at 200 yards were the norm.
I wanted to test a range of powder charges increasing the compression by increasing the weight of the powder. In each case I used the two known-to-be accurate bullets seated at a known length fired by the primer that worked in the past as well. By starting testing in this way, a lot of the variability could be removed. I worked it from zero compression to 0.275” of compression and found accuracy at every increment.
I did get some good loads out of the few different combos I tried. Everything from zero up to 0.275" compression was at least good and worthy of trying again. The chronograph I intended to use while load testing did not work so I did not get any chronograph data. The zero compression loads, unlike the Swiss are not very fast. I could tell by very light recoil. So the more compressed loads might be more useful. At compression levels of 0.100" up to 0.225" showed very good accuracy and 45-70 charge weights increased to the 65 - 71 grain level where velocity might become acceptable. As you know, the slower velocity loads give up a lot of accuracy in the form of vertical spread on the target. This is what I see a lot when a competitor has "high - low" trouble on the long targets and I find out he is shooting a slow load. An accurate load with higher velocity coupled with low standard deviation numbers equals better ability to hold elevation on the longer targets.

I am not ready to buy a case of Olde Eynsford yet but I wish I had some more to more fully explore it usefulness. I would like to work it through my 40-60 Maynard as well.
Then there is the lot to lot question. How well lots vary. Will you have to start load development again?

It is good to know there may be an American powder that might be of match grade- maybe.... need to shoot it some more.

Don McDowell

04-16-2014, 03:13 PM

I have shot 2f from lots 1,2 and 3, and have not noticed enough difference in either of those to get excited about.
I hope to be down to shoot the Creedmoor at Byers in May, if you would like another can of 2f to try in that 40-60, I'ld gladly bring you one.

Gunlaker

04-16-2014, 03:30 PM

Well I sure hope the OE pans out and stays with us for a while. Other than lot to lot variations, having to switch powders often is also expensive. I used to have loads for Goex Cartridge, then it got discontinued so I developed loads for FFg Express. When that ran out I bought the rest of the FFFg Express from my distributor. Hopefully OE is still around once I'm out of FFFg Express.

If Swiss was readily available in B.C. I'd have dumped Goex for good a while ago.

Chris.

Chill Wills

04-16-2014, 07:03 PM

Don, Chris, I fixed the broken chronograph the other day. Amazing what a little maintenance and attention will do for neglected equipment!
Anyway, The wind was howling today and the latest batch of 45-70 test loads scheduled for Friday a.m. were on my mind. I put the rifle and the chronograph in the truck and on the way to run an errand I shot two loads for velocity. I just had to know....

The 72.5 grain 2F load with my old standby Hoch 545gr bullet went 5 shots into 2.25" at the chicken line (219yds). That is not bad, wind or not. The wind was mostly in my face. I fired 6 shots and the first shot out of the clean barrel was high and slightly right. It also recorded about 25 FPS faster than the rest averaged. I was blow tubing. I had the chronograph on for the first shot so I did not get a good ES and SD numbers due the first shot being an outlier, but the 2nd -6th shots showed 15 fps ES and I would guess the SD would look OK too.

The wind only got worse. I started on my second load test and after only 4 shots of the PJ Creedmoor 555 grain load with 67 grains of 2F I gave up. I keep getting false shots on the chronograph from the wind buffeting the screens and the bullets are hitting all over the place and the sky screen blows down.... - ballast and all ! I packed it in. At least I now have an idea of what to expect.

The Hoch bullet load from above ran 1229 FPS and the Creedmoor load ran in the 1170's for the three shots I got recorded. Lighter loads or the zero compression loads might be a little slow for mid or long-range targets regardless of accuracy. But, I am happy with the velocity and accuracy of the higher load! I hope we have less wind Friday a.m.!

Chill Wills

04-16-2014, 08:09 PM

Don, So sorry I did not respond to your kind offer of powder. I got so caught up in writing this fast and getting to the dinner table with the family .....
Anyway, If it comes to that I would like to get a LB from you. Thanks!! However, I think I should just buy a case with a few shooters and share the cost and have 5-8 lbs to really give it a workout. so thanks for the offer and if I do not have any (yet) by the Byers match maybe I could get a pound. Again, Thanks! Michael

Don McDowell

04-16-2014, 08:25 PM

Sounds good Michael. We'll stay in touch, plans are to be at Windsor the Saturday before for the MS walk , so we figured as long as we're that close...
If you guys do go together and split a case, you might want to have some 1.5 thrown in the mix, it has shown some good things in the 44-77, and I would imagine it'll work well in longer straight cases.

Gunlaker

04-16-2014, 08:44 PM

It sounds promising. How are you finding the fouling?

I'll be happy if it works as well as the lot of FFFg Express I've got now. That stuff works extremely well in my grease groove rifles. I'll be sad when I've used it all up :-)

Chris.

Chill Wills

04-16-2014, 10:06 PM

Fouling Chris? Well, I am not sure. Either I am clueless or expert at controlling fouling I really never think about it much. I blowtube or wipe depending....
I know that is not much of an answer. I guess the fouling is OK !
Now that I think about it, as an example, the second day I tested. The day I really got to try 8 different loads.... 5-7 shots each plus then some Swiss control loads....65-70 shots total. I blowtubed the whole thing start to end with out cleaning or wiping between and the last few loads tested showed the most accuracy....then I followed up with second Swiss control group - which shot fine. -Michael Rix

Thanks for asking. I will pay more attention to it.

semtav

04-16-2014, 10:45 PM

Michael
Got to see OE in action the last two weekends at local shoots. Buz got second in the long range match shooting it in his 50-90 and won the 1200 yd match. I got third in the Mid Range buffalo match the next weekend, wasn't with a great score, but the vertical held great, just my shooting off the target left and right contributed to that.

Gunlaker

04-16-2014, 11:43 PM

It sounds to me like the fouling must be pretty decent then. I'm a wiper not a blow tuber but I've found that to get more consistent velocities with some powders you need to wipe more. One of my most consistent loads, velocity wise, uses plain old Goex Fg. 74gr of it with a bullet seated way out. I need to wipe with two damp patches to get best velocity SD, but when using the Goex Express powders most of the time I only need one patch.

I have the feeling that most of what you get out of a premium powder, other than velocity, is easier fouling management. That's what I think now, maybe not ten years from now. :-) :-). Mind you, other than Goex Fg, I don't shoot the standard grade stuff too often.

Chris.

Don McDowell

04-17-2014, 09:36 AM

Fouling is agreeable enough a not particularly good match shooter can fire a 97 2x at 200 yds shooting patched bullets with only a blowtube for fouling control.

Gunlaker

04-17-2014, 10:32 AM

Fouling is agreeable enough a not particularly good match shooter can fire a 97 2x at 200 yds shooting patched bullets with only a blowtube for fouling control.

That sounds very good!

Chris.

Chill Wills

05-31-2014, 08:13 PM

At long last, time off and weather worked out to test some more loads yesterday, sort of.....
The Olde Eynsford FF powder and my favorite 45-70 got to try for accuracy again.

My previous load work-up was using a rifle and 545 grain bullet that had performed well in the past and by using the same seating depth as my accurate Swiss load I just replaced the powder with various amounts of Olde E and compressed to the same point below the case mouth to seat the bullet to the same OAL. It ends up that I shot some usable groups with zero to 0.100" compression this way. So good so far. The only complaint being that the velocity runs a but low for the 45-70 using this little powder. Olde E is about 10% less dense that the same volume of Swiss. Perhaps with a longer case like a 45-2.6", a zero compression load will produce just fine. No mater, when enough powder is loaded and compressed to the 0.175" - 0.225" level, chronograph numbers, both velocity and ES are looking very good. In fact very good! But, groups start becoming tall in this rifle with this bullet! On the order of 5-6" at 200 meters.

Hmmm. Ruling everything else out..... even made a new hammer pivot pin for this highwall to rule out drag, I had to think that the bullet was exiting the muzzle as the barrel was in mid swing between the low and high in vibration. Do you know what I am talking about? One way to check for this is to load the same or about the same powder charge and substitute a different weight bullet.

Yesterday I got to try that on a very limited bases....... before the rain hit! I set up at 200m under dark skies knowing I may get run off. I just had time for two and a half groups. My first eight shot group was the Swiss control group. It and I shot well going 2-1/4" high-low at 200m. The light cross wind made the group football shaped but I do not worry about the left - right group size when load testing and rarely even try to correct for it unless I might fall of the edge of the paper;).

I had built three loads to test with a lighter 45 cal bullet that has a known accuracy record. Of all things it is a Lyman mould. Number 457 76AV and casts to 507 grains in my alloy.
I wanted to keep the compression in the 0.100 - 0.200" range to start and just seating this bullet into the rifling by using 72.5 grs w/ a 0.040" wad, then also 72.5 grs with a 0.090" wad and then going to 74.5grs w/ a 0.090" wad. These three loads produced 0.060", 0.150" and 0.190" compression respectively.

With the rain moving in I went for the heavy loads first, 74.5 grs of powder, and made a nice seven shot group 2-1/4 up and down (high to low). YaHoo! This is good as it is accurate enough to to compete in a match! And,! No fliers as I had with the other testing of 72.5grn loads!

I started in on the 72.5 grn / 0.090" wad load combination and was able to shoot four shots while getting wet and gave up. Those four made a great horizontal line 5/8" high by 4" wide. Just too little data to say much about this abbreviated group but the eleven shots together say I am in the ball park.

My next test day will be shooting combinations of this again.
I did not bother to get out the chronograph yesterday. I will pack it back out next time too.

I am wondering why I am not hearing more about this powder from competitors? I am about out of the two lbs of test powder and I want to try it in two other calibers, namely the laser rifle in 40-60 Maynard and in the long range rifles in 45-2.4"

gota go.... Michael Rix

Lead pot

05-31-2014, 08:52 PM

"I am wondering why I am not hearing more about this powder from competitors?"

It's a secret Michael [smilie=f:

Looks like your getting it worked out. You will find after doing some serious tweaking when your getting close the vertical will not be an issue; just the wind calls need to be paid attention to.

Chill Wills

05-31-2014, 09:54 PM

Yes, agreed. If what little I shot yesterday is consistent with future shooting then vertical is not an issue. I wish I could try it again tomorrow! I do hope to get in another test day before the silhouette match on the 6th. If it holds, I will give it a match trial. :cool:

Gunlaker

05-31-2014, 10:01 PM

Lead pot

05-31-2014, 10:18 PM

Michael I used it at Lodi in my .44-100 Rem st. Despite loosing two shots on the 900 do to cross firing and got a 50-1 I still ended up with a 472-5 I just don't shoot well enough anymore do to my eyesight going down hill and I don't have the mussel control anymore to break a clean shot. I just cant find any fault with this powder.
I'm starting some serious work using 3 F OE in the .45-70 and the .45-2.4. I started with it a year ago and was not satisfied with it but I used up the last of the 5# I had this spring in the 2.4 and had some very good looking results on the 200 yd line that made me get a case to continue some serious work with the .45's and 44's.

Chill Wills

05-31-2014, 11:27 PM

BTW, ArizonaSharpshooters has a write up about OE on the home page now...
Chris.

Yes, Chip's sample of Olde Eynsford was part of the case I took down to AZ in March to the American Creedmoor Cup. I know he is doing well with it and I have been talking with Kenny W off and on but they are shooting different cartridges than I am so ???????? I hear what works for the long cases and the 40 but I am having my own ideas based on what limited shooting I have done so far. I have a feeling this powder will shoot! Just need some good days and more powder. I will likely spring for a case at some point.

Chill Wills

06-01-2014, 09:02 AM

That sounds really good Michael. I hadn't heard of the idea of using a different weight bullet to tune the load in that manner, but it makes sense. It would be interesting to order three different Brooks Creedmoor bullets, each in different weights, for this sort of testing. Chris.

Hey Chris, I meant to expand about this last night. I was too tired.

I admit, this is a bit of an unorthodox approach to an accuracy problem.
I had a powder charge that was producing the best chronograph numbers imaginable paired with vertical stringing on the target. I knew the rifle was OK by checking with another known load using Swiss. When checking new powder or bullets a baseline group with known accuracy is useful.

So, here is this Olde Eynsford powder burning really efficiently at this weight and compression, delivering very uniform muzzle velocity and the accuracy is strung up and down; the quick and dirty way to check if the bullet is exiting the barrel at ( possibility) the worst place in the vibration cycle is to change the bullet weight. This alters more than one thing at the same time; but still, buy using a 30gr lighter bullet with roughly the same powder charge weights, I hoped to get the same great chronograph numbers and have the new lighter bullet exit the muzzle at a different point in the barrel vibration cycle.
Hopefully, a good place in the cycle!

This is really just a 'shot in the dark' crude way to "tune" a barrel. Think 22rf tuners.

Michael Rix

Chill Wills

06-01-2014, 09:09 AM

I'm starting some serious work using 3 F OE in the .45-70 and the .45-2.4.

Lead pot, nothing wrong with using 3F but why not 1.5F or 2F in the big cases? I shoot with a few guys that like 3F Swiss in their longrange rifles (45- 2.4) Steve Baldwin, Doc Lay and Kelley Roos. They have shot very well with it but I have never worked with it in the longer cases.

Gunlaker

06-01-2014, 09:50 AM

Michael i lik the idea of that method of tuning, mainly because it's a different approach. It reminds me of Zack's posting on the Shiloh forum where he picked a powder charge and tuned the "combustion chamber" size by adding wads until accuracy was achieved.

I will definitely try your idea at some time as I have run into the same thing, excellent SD but not necessarily good accuracy.

Thanks very much for the interesting idea.

Chris.

Lead pot

06-01-2014, 09:53 AM

Michael I think the reason they are using the 3F is to get more velocity out of their rifle to get more rotation to keep those long nosed 1.5"+ bullets stable at extended ranges. I think they are trying to make the 2.1 and 2.4 into 2.6 or 7/8's especially if they are using the 1/18 ROT.
I can see this using my 1/19 .44-77 and the .44-90bn shooting the long nosed prolate and elliptical bullets. The .44-77 those two bullet profiles will put egg shaped holes through the paper at 300 yards where the faster .44-90 will still hold stability at 600 to 700 yds but get marginal at 800-1000. The 1/17 ROT .44-100 does not have this problem using the bullets that don't print clean holes at extended ranges in the slower twists.
Here is an example for my .44-90BN. The accuracy load of 2f OE I use in this rifle will drive my bullet at 1423 AVG fps and the accuracy load of 3F OE will drive that same bullet at 1505 AVG fps and both loads have .210" compression.
I think that extra velocity using 1 .505" long bullet in the 1/19 rot using the 3f OE makes them usable in that rifle.
In the .44-100 with the 1.17 twist that bullet does fine @ 1280 fps

Kurt

Chill Wills

06-01-2014, 02:00 PM

Don McDowell

06-02-2014, 12:11 AM

Wes Deams, took 3rd place prone at the Wyoming Midrange championships yesterday shooting 2f Eynsford in his 45-70, I believe he shot a 100x5 at 200. His final score was 264 x7 , shot from prone, especially when the conditions that were interesting to say the least, and shooting with a spotter who he had never met until they got paired up that morning... Speaks quite well of both the shooter and the load he uses.
There are quite a few folks out there shooting the stuff, so it's just a matter of time...

Boz330

06-02-2014, 10:57 AM

Kurt, I think I have asked before but I am still wondering what variation you found in loading batch to batch?

As you know;
When changing batches with the old GOEX, accuracy was all over the map. Worst case, you could use up half a case of powder trying to reproduce an accuracy load. Some batches never would shoot well. Based on my testing to date, Olde E might have proven half its market place worth in the accuracy department. The other half concerns batch to batch repeatability.

One big attraction back in 2000 to the then new Swiss Powder when it became available for North American rifleman was that an accuracy load could be had right away and was easily checked with a few shots. And in fact half the reason Swiss was SO attractive at the higher price was the almost no waste of supplies and time casting bullets and the expense of lead, primers, powder and then the range time testing when starting on a new powder batch. Powder that is 30% less expensive is no deal when you have to muck around burning pounds and pounds of it hoping to find a new accuracy load.

Depending on how consistent the batch to batch aspect of Olde Eynsford works out to be will predict its acceptance with competitive shooters.
Michael Rix
I just got a case of OE in last week. I wanted to try it in my 40-65 with that mold I got from you. The lot was different from the couple pounds I got last year. My Swiss load was 65gr. I started at 65 OE but had to use 2-.060 wads to get any compression and seat the boolit normally. I was shooting at 125yd and 1gr increases. The group went from 2" tall down to 3/4" tall at 68gr. That is when the sky opened up and I had to quit. I have a match this weekend and wanted to get something together to shoot there. For now this is close enough till I can get some more range time.
I originally got the sample OE for a 45-70 for mid and long range competition. That gun likes 68gr of OE and I have a match at Camp Atterburry next week so I will see what difference there is. Unfortunately I will be going with the same 68gr load since there won't be any time to test and see. I sure hate testing loads in a match but there isn't much choice this time.
According to Jerry at Powder inc there hasn't been but 2 lot numbers so for. I'll let you know what happens.

Bob