Read the Manual?

[TXGunNut]

Why is it some folks take exception to replies that suggest the poster take the time to actually read a manual? Learning to use something as sophisticated as loading and casting equipment without reading a manual seems to me like the hard way, I've learned the answers to questions I never would have known to ask otherwise by reading loading manuals. Maybe I'm just showing my age but my most-used reloading/casting resource is a hardcopy manual. I'll go to mfg's websites for research after turning a few pages but only if I can't find it in the several manuals I keep nearby.
Good manuals aren't expensive, they've saved me many times the purchase price by helping me avoid buying or using the wrong components or using the correct components incorrectly.
I feel if a reply suggests reading a manual it's because a manual has so much more to offer than any forum thread. Last thing I want to do is offend a newbie but having a working relationship with a manual is essential for folks interested in quality cast boolit loads. I don't think that's too much to ask, but that's JMHO.

[Hawkeye45]

I love books and hard copies. I can remember more that way for some reason.

Mr.. Ed

[robroy]

+1 I've got 7 reloading manuals from various sources. Before I ever had equipment I had nosler's number 1. Sitting beside Walt, my mentor, at the bench helped alot. The manual filled in stuff that he didn't show me and often explained why things were done as they were. Read the manual on the throne. Turn off the tv, confuser, etc and read the manual. If you don't like to read or just will not, I can't realy help you.

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Same here. At last count I have 16 manuals, and I study them often. When starting out with a new cartridge or new load for an old standby cartridge I do a comparison search on powders, primers, cartridge length, you name it. For me it is part of the enjoyment of reloading and shooting. I will not even think of using data suggested by someone until I do the research.

[Hickok]

I love books and hard copies. I can remember more that way for some reason.

Mr.. Ed+1. A friend once asked me "How do you do all this stuff you do?" "Man I get the books and I read!"was my answer. I too love the books, something I can go back to, pick up and go over again. We learned how to do it before the internet age came into being!8-)

[Dutch4122]

I must have at least a dozen manuals. I also go to powder manufacturer's websites for data. Any data that I find on the net is first confirmed through a credible, published source in the manuals or a manufacturer's website. A friend has quickload and that has also become a great resource.

What I don't have is an iphone or other touch screen, web browsing wonder. That is what I believe is making the influx of "what's a good bullet for a mosin?" and "what's a good load for a 30-30?" so much worse the last couple of years. These phones are used as an instant resource for answers and gratification by their users. Basically I think they are the next step in what I like to call the "lazy chain."

Just pop on the web browser app and the all the worlds info is right there waiting for you.

It makes me wonder what most folks would do these days if they walked in to a library and had to find there own reference material?:roll:

[btroj]

This is a learning tool
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps0fe3cbd1.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps0fe3cbd1.jpg.html)

This is a utensil

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zpse7334963.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zpse7334963.jpg.html)

Don't ask me to use a utensil to teach you because you are too lazy to use an appropriate learning device.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Why is it some folks take exception to replies that suggest the poster take the time to actually read a manual?
...snip
Because they want "their" questions answered, right now, without waiting.

[TXGunNut]

It makes me wonder what most folks would do these days if they walked in to a library and had to find there own reference material?-Dutch4122

Went back to school several years ago and dropped by the library one day. I asked a staff member where the card catalogs were and got a funny look. I was told they used the computers to find books. I got the last laugh, computers were down and I used the card catalog to find the book I was looking for.

[308w]

TXGunNut, +++++1!!! I'm a member of a few shooting, handloading, casting groups on FB and I find myself wishing my keyboard had a "buy a quality reloading manual and read it key!" so often it is ridiculous.

I'm glad there are a lot more folks getting in to handload/reloading and while it ain't rocket science the need to start low and work up is the only safe way to proceed, The manuals is where you get this education, like you I just cannot believe the folks who act like you have done them a disservice instead of a helping hand when you suggest this to them !!!

[dragon813gt]

Why do some folks take exception? Because they are hypocrites. They complain about the current state of the school systems and how they don't teach kids properly. But then they get mad when you tell someone to read a manual because they feel it's okay to spoon feed a new reloader. I'm sorry but there is no excuse for not reading a manual. And asking basic questions that would be answered by a manual should be treated w/ no kindness on our end. Call it tough love on our end. I've said it many times before and people get mad when I say it. Reloading isn't for everyone. If you can't grasp the concepts from reading a manual then you should find another hobby. Do you want to be next to a guy at the range that doesn't understand how to pick a proper load? I don't and neither should you. I learned completely by book w/ no mentor. This isn't rocket science but you are dealing w/ propellants.

[TXGunNut]

It's quite possible to learn how to do many things by watching youtube videos and asking a few questions. It's probably even possible to assemble workable ammunition without opening a book but I didn't learn it that way and like most here I don't want to shoot next to them. I'm showing my age again but I think to gain a good undertanding of the basic principles behind reloading and casting you have to spend at least a few hours reading the instruction portion of a good manual, preferably more. Like many of you I own several manuals and regularly sit down to read them, I always learn something new. I had a good mentor; Steve Camp made sure I read the manual. Someone mentioned him on another thread today and it reminded me how lucky I was to have known him.

[462]

There's much more to a casting and/or reloading manual than just load recipes, such as safety precautions and reloading steps. If someone is too lazy to read a manual, in order to get their loads, what does that say about how safe they and their reloads are. A generation or two has been sent out into America without a proper education, having been babied and given all the material items they wanted, and are now demanding instant gratification.

I wonder how many of the recent batch of casters and reloaders will still be doing it after the newness wears off, and after they discover that there is more to it that they ever imagined.

I'm glad to help, but don't and won't post load information.

This kind of conversation has been going on for a long time. I predict that this thread won't be the last.

[w5pv]

When all else fails read the manual.Thats is what I have always heard.

[TXGunNut]

When all else fails read the manual.Thats is what I have always heard.

My dad used to say something very much like that, he always had a way with mild sarcasm. "RTFM" was a popular reply on the first internet bulletin board I joined, back when they published useful manuals for computers. I read owners' manuals for anything more comlicated than a pocket knife, it's amazing what you'll find there.

[Old Coot]

Years ago on another Forum I told a poster to get a manual and read it. The moderator got all upset and chastised me severely for it stating: "This is so far beyond what that manual covers that it would be useless.". I replied that his revolutionary loading was so new that I had been doing it since the mid 1960's and I had gotten the idea from a manual back then. That was my last post on that forum.

People who try to load without manuals are the ones who sell blown up guns on E bay, and post their videos of same on UTube. Brodie

[mrbill2]

There's one thing about reading loading manuals, you don't have to read a lot of BS.

[jonas302]

I love books I read load manuals before I go to bed at night I have at least a dozen on my nightstand Posting that someone should go read a manual raises hairs first because usually we don't know the whole story behind the person how many manuals they have or not or how well they comprehend them
What is the reason to tell someone to go read a manual? Have you never heard don't say anything if you can't say something nice? Does it physically pain you to roll past a post that you don't want to answer I mean why bother having the forum at all every thing is wrote in stone in the lyman manual
I think manuals are more than essential but telling someone to go read them is not what I am here for I don't understand the crying about newbies either ignore them or try to help

[TXGunNut]

There's one thing about reading loading manuals, you don't have to read a lot of BS.

Amen brother!

[leeggen]

Guys welcome to the new and greatest library there is, just type in your question and you will find answers to it. I'm not big on giving out load data to anyone but I will give info. as to where to find it and sometimes how. Such as the google search setup for us by one of our members. This is the new age it will not back up 10 20 nor 30 yrs. just cause we want it to so this new generation will read a book. They are taught in school to use the computer to find knowledge.
Guess what when the people are the same age as us they will be saying the same thing, our parents and mentors told us read the book, they will tell the kids read the internet, by then it will be something new in design far ahead of what we have now. Just give these guys the search engine to help them.
When I came on here I read lots and lots of threads on loading the 40S&W cause the manuals don't really tell me what to look for and how to do the things it takes to keep it from leading. Yes in a very general way the books told me but this sight is unserpast in the knowledge any book has.
Did your Dad tell you to read the manual on how to use a drill or a handsaw or even how to sharpen that mower blade. Well the internet will.
JMO
CD

[CastingFool]

When I first went into the army in 71, learning to work on helicopters, I was taught to read the manual. In fact, if you were doing a task on a helicopter, you had better have the right TM out with you while you're doing the job, regardless whether you had done that task 500 hundred times before. Later on, when I was in the Air Guard, you had better had the TM out, opened to the right page. So I became a firm believer in reading manuals. Whatever I'm doing, especially if it's something I haven't done for a while, I get the manual out and read it.

[Hard_Cast]

btroj..... you crack me up!!!

I can see both sides- there really are many things that a loading manual cannot describe or areas they leave sparse. That is what we do in the forums, fill in the gaps!! However, I keep seeing, "I don't have the funds for a reloading book" or "I don't own any reloading books". Well..... you have a computer. And hodgdon, alliant, accurate, and others all post their data online. Why is it taken as insult to refer them to a manf.'s website? It really is as simple as READING A GRAPH. And there's no worries over transcription errors... I don't understand how this is insulting?

[str8shot426]

Aren't they "ENTITLED" to that information? Why should they have to read it?

[TXGunNut]

....They are taught in school to use the computer to find knowledge....leeggen


I'm well aware of that, just one of many things taught in today's schools that I disagree with. If they come here to continue their education I hope they don't mind cracking open a book.

[308w]

I used to shoot silhouettes at Gateway Rifle and Pistol club in Jax Fl back in the mid 80's, they had on the wall what was left of a rem 700. Some one had mistakenly chambered a 308 in a 2506 and pulled the trigger! It literally was in the form of many pieces of shrapnel with a few larger recognizeable parts.
I guess this is just one of the things that always made me respect the forces we deal with when handloading.
I know this was not a handloading mistake per se, but a rifle load with the wrong powder could and would do the same or worse!

[35 shooter]

First came a manual, then later was fortunate enough to find a mentor to help out with some of the grey (to me) areas, then came more manuals right up to the present. Ton's of information on the internet now and i'm glad it is...but i always cross reference info found there with my old and new manuals. If you care about your gun and your own anatomy staying intact it only makes sense to do so. Then accidents can still happen but i don't want it to be because i didn't know better.

TxGuNut i got a good laugh from your library trip. LOL!

[TXGunNut]

TxGuNut i got a good laugh from your library trip. LOL! -35 shooter

True story! Major university, no less. My brother uses a section of card catalog in his workshop, would love to have a row or two atop my loading bench for small tools and stuff. My eyes get all Dewey just thinking about all those carefully maintained card files of years gone by.

[Wayne Smith]

I am of the generation of the Dewey Decimal System generation too. I recently bought a camera - the 'manual' essentially told me how to turn it on. Everything else is internal to the camera - the 'guide' that I can't print out and don't remember multiple steps to do something. There is not a more complete manual online.

I am glad reloading companies and bullet companies and powder companies still print manuals!

[fecmech]

I have a fair amount of manuals next to my upstairs "throne" and study them regularly. Reading the manuals as opposed to looking for a loading "recipe" gives you a better feel for concepts like powder speed vs pressure or bullet weight vs powder speed vs velocity. From posts that I've read from new shooters I don't think many even grasp the concept of powder speeds and it's relationship to bullet wt and velocity. Where you really see it is questions regarding the autopistol cartridges when they can't get an oal for a particular bullet or in some cases use the same oal with different bullet designs. The internet is a really great place for knowledge but I do like my manuals.

[sidecarmike]

99358

[Love Life]

I'm with you on this. A recent example is that I sat down to load some 10mm last weekend. As we all know, 10mm data is all over the place and changes from manual to manual and even edition to edition.

By flopping out 4 different manuals I was able to start a load and work up safely. FYI-the Speer #13 manual has hotter loads than many others for the 10mm.

I know why people get offended when you tell them to read the manual. I get it. That is why I don't give any replies in those threads where it is immediately evident that they A) Don't have a manual B) have a manual, but skipped the 1st 3/4 of the book and went straight to the load data C) Come across as lazy.

I work hard in my research and load development. If I can save somebody who is truly trying soome heartache then I will. However; I will not freely give my hard work up to somebody looking for a freebie.

[tazman]

A few years ago my niece was taking basic chemistry at college and was having trouble. I agreed to tutor her. We went through a few basic concepts and began to balance chemical equations. At that point, I found out she had been allowed to use a calculator during her years of mathematics training and could not do multiplication or division in her head or on paper by hand.
Talk about deficiencies in education!
I actually had to teach her basic math and make her memorize the old multiplication tables because you can't punch a chemical equation into a cheap calculator. She hated it of course.
A few weeks/months later she realized the value of knowing this stuff since she found she had to teach proportion concepts to her students who were not trained any better than she had been.
I think not wanting to read the manual is an side effect of the poor education our children are getting in school. They have been taught that everything they need to use is available on the web for a few clicks and don't need to understand how to deduce it or how it was developed. Hence the indignation when they are told to use their brains or read a manual.

[sidecarmike]

I...I think not wanting to read the manual is an side effect of the poor education our children are getting in school. They have been taught that everything they need to use is available on the web for a few clicks and don't need to understand how to deduce it or how it was developed. Hence the indignation when they are told to use their brains or read a manual.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. In the early 90's, physical limitations dictated a change of careers. I went back to school for computer network administration. I had never turned on a computer until my first day of class. Hardly a day went by that I didn't hear an instructor say, Our job is not to teach you, but rather to help you find the information you will need to learn." I was successful in the career and advanced rapidly, but never really felt like I knew what I was doing.

[Larry Gibson]

Because they want "their" questions answered, right now, without waiting.

The precise answer; they want instant gratification as they've come to expect from the internet, via forums, FAQ pages, Facebook and twitter.......and I agree whole heartily on the "poor education" and allowing calculators and now smart phones to give the answer...........especially when so much information is bogus on the "information highway".........

They really do need to read manuals, especially for casting. Very hard to beat Lyman's #3 CBH for the beginner. I consider it to be the "primer" for all beginning castors and an excellent reference for us old time casters.

Larry Gibson

[fecmech]

I found out she had been allowed to use a calculator during her years of mathematics training and could not do multiplication or division in her head or on paper by hand.
That is one of the big problems today that extends into every facet of life. People don't comprehend proportion and how it affects everyday living. They may be able to get the answer with a calculator but many times the "how" and the "why" are more important than the "answer".

[Hawkeye45]

I agree with the " how and why". To me it increases the enjoyment of our hobby ( obsession), or any hobby or work. I can't just follow the recipe, I have to know why. JMHO

Mr. Ed

[LeftyDon]

When I first went into the army in 71, learning to work on helicopters, I was taught to read the manual. In fact, if you were doing a task on a helicopter, you had better have the right TM out with you while you're doing the job, regardless whether you had done that task 500 hundred times before. Later on, when I was in the Air Guard, you had better had the TM out, opened to the right page. So I became a firm believer in reading manuals. Whatever I'm doing, especially if it's something I haven't done for a while, I get the manual out and read it.

Ditto on how it worked for the nuclear Navy in '69. The Tech manual was your friend. Don't have it out and go directly to captain's mast. Do not collect $42.50 on your next pay day. "This is your manual, this is your ..... er, oh wait, that was for something else."

[Animal]

You should always look to the books when you are trying to learn. But book or no book, intelligent conversation always seems to stimulate curiosity, which leads to further learning.

[Love Life]

That is assuming that it is intelligent conversation. "What is the mostest accuratest load ever in the 38 special...ever?" is not intelligent conversation.

[smokeywolf]

The internet is a source of information that is becoming or has become of almost infinite value. However, I don't always have a computer in the shop, in the car or at the range and my cell phone, although modern and capable is too small to conveniently display the info that I usually want.

I have several books and don't foresee the internet ever (in my lifetime) replacing them. Also, I make notes in the margins of my reloading books, which is a great convenience to me; I can't do that with a webpage.

Can't afford a reloading manual? Then you can't afford powder, primers and casting equipment.

Too lazy to read a manual? Then you shouldn't be reloading. You're the type of person who will try to take shortcuts. Shortcuts in casting and reloading can get people hurt or worse.

I'm rarely too far from a reloading manual as I have a couple in the garage, in the living room, in the bathroom and sometimes in the truck. In fact I'm using one for a mouse pad right now.

smokeywolf

[leeggen]

Tazman you are correct with the dif. in education. I still beleive in math tables,long hand div/mutiplication, and teaching kids to read. I will bet that some of the new op's on here ask for info cause they can't read very well. Now the local schools want help getting Ipads for all the students to use in school and eleminate some of the books so as to reduce school expenditures. The schools need to go back to reading writting and arithmaticoh yeah and how to count change back.
CD

[cephas53]

I pick up used reloading manuals for a few bucks whenever I come across them. If someone wants to come over and learn I give them one. I tell them to come back after they've read the first few basic chapters. Out of the several times I've done this only one has done it. On one level it's upsetting, but on another I figure I saved allot of time.

[gray wolf]

I for one have some mixed feelings about this whole topic, it comes up very often, with seemingly the same results. The arguments for not enabling someone to continue on the path of ( you do it for me )
and I need it now, and I see no need to acquire the knowledge, all I want to do is shoot.
To the other school of thought that says: Hey we are here to help, and then proceeds to feed the OP with the info he demands that will enhance is ability to be ignorant to the finer points of our hobby, and possibly get hurt or worse hurt someone else.
If someone can not read, and wants load data how in the world does anyone conclude that as a reason to give said data. Does not a person ask themselves ? If a person can't read basic load data what else have they been denied in reference to hand loading.
There are a multitude of reasons to help with load data request such as;
I have the load data but I find some of it confusing, can you help ?
Why do my load manuals contradict each other ?
Can someone help me understand shooting Lead with jacketed data, my manual does not list Lead data.
I read the stickies on slugging a bore but I am having a problem getting the correct measurement.
We all want to help with questions like that, why ? cause it at least shows an attempt to do a little research and an interest in what is going on.
Why enable this to go on ? and go on it does. I for one am tired of all the reasons for this kind of activity,
Oh it's the internet, OH it's the way we do it now, OH i use U-tube, I don't want to spend the money for a manual, why should i take the time ? there is always someone that will give me the info if you don't.
And then the last question: WHY DID MY GUN BLOW UP ?
We should have a forum for all the folks that want to enable this kind of behavior, and for all the people that want to feed off of it. People can ask for all the load data they need by simply saying: Hey I need a load for my 30/30 and and get an answer from all the people that think it's fine to do so,
and that's not a slam. No one would think it's wrong, Hey it's done in a forum that condones it, right.
Then the lazy, I choose not to do the work, do it for me, I don't need a manual people will all have a place to gather and be ignorant together. Other people with a different point of view can just direct them to there own forum. Works for me.

[nanuk]

Why is it some folks take exception to replies that suggest the poster take the time to actually read a manual?....

what I find, is when someone askes a pretty basic question, people jump on him like she/he is an idiot/moron and suggests the "Manual" in a condescending way

remember, you too, as were EVERYONE, first time reloaders.

manuals are good, I have several.. but guess what? they are also very contradictory in load data, AND other suggestions.

some even publish refuted old wives tales


When I see someone's question about a load, or powder... I look forward to Larry Gibson's response, as it is most often far better than you will find if you read 10 manuals. In fact, the more manuals you have the more confusing some issues become.

Also, many A$$-sume that the person asking has no manuals, no experience and is stupid.

there would be little point of having a forum, if EVERYONE took their own advice!!!!


what I find on here, that is far more valuable than a manual, is the personal experiences of the seasoned reloaders, who give significant insight into what people are looking for.

Oh, and I will add one more thing..... I love to read, and I do read a lot of manuals. one thing I notice is many on here contradict many suggestions in the manuals, depending on what you have/use. I have an article on the 303Epps, and the info in there has to be up in the 70kpsi area to get the velocities published.... is THAT a "Manual" that a tyco should be refered to?

manuals are only ONE aspect of the information base.... experience from the rest of you is another. some "experts" on here also make suggestions that other "Experts" condemn and talk down to.... but we soon learn to weed through the fluff, and find diamonds!

I would far rather read someone schooling someone on a subject, than just directing them to a "manual" of no distinction, and letting them flounder and waste time and resources.

many of you had mentors, some of us did not.
How would YOU feel if everytime you had a question, you were told to shut up and go read a manual?

[gray wolf]

what I find, is when someone askes a pretty basic question, people jump on him like she/he is an idiot/moron and suggests the "Manual" in a condescending way

remember, you too, as were EVERYONE, first time reloaders.

manuals are good, I have several.. but guess what? they are also very contradictory in load data, AND other suggestions.

some even publish refuted old wives tales


When I see someone's question about a load, or powder... I look forward to Larry Gibson's response, as it is most often far better than you will find if you read 10 manuals. In fact, the more manuals you have the more confusing some issues become.

Also, many A$$-sume that the person asking has no manuals, no experience and is stupid.

there would be little point of having a forum, if EVERYONE took their own advice!!!!


what I find on here, that is far more valuable than a manual, is the personal experiences of the seasoned reloaders, who give significant insight into what people are looking for.

Oh, and I will add one more thing..... I love to read, and I do read a lot of manuals. one thing I notice is many on here contradict many suggestions in the manuals, depending on what you have/use. I have an article on the 303Epps, and the info in there has to be up in the 70kpsi area to get the velocities published.... is THAT a "Manual" that a tyco should be refered to?

manuals are only ONE aspect of the information base.... experience from the rest of you is another. some "experts" on here also make suggestions that other "Experts" condemn and talk down to.... but we soon learn to weed through the fluff, and find diamonds!

I would far rather read someone schooling someone on a subject, than just directing them to a "manual" of no distinction, and letting them flounder and waste time and resources.

many of you had mentors, some of us did not.
How would YOU feel if everytime you had a question, you were told to shut up and go read a manual?

I don't think this is what the question is all about. For Me I am talking about people that ask for data as it's the normal thing to do, with no other work needed.
And have no idea why it may be a bad thing to do. I truly do not believe there is anyone here that would not help someone who had his foot caught in a chuck hole and needed a help up.
As for me I will not answer a question that sounds like this:
I need a load for my 9MM/124 grain bullet. Let there be a forum for it. Let there be the one sentence question and see how long the one sentence answers will last without wanting to ask a little more, only to find the long version answer was not wanted in the first place, just an easy fix.
I think a very important question to ask ourselves is:
What will help to further and foster the new re loaders to become good re-loaders and good teachers for the future, we will not be here forever. If I tell someone to do something I like to think I have also told them why they are doing it, along with any potential problems.

[smokeywolf]

How do you ask the right, the pertinent questions without first reading the manual?

I remember as a youngster, 4 to 7 years old, a close family friend owned one of the premier gun shops in SoCal. I had the run of the store and aside from the rifles, pistols, cannons and Gatling gun, one the things that interested me greatly was the cartridge boards. From my earliest memories, I recall sitting at the old roll-top desk in dad's backyard shop and going page by page through the gun and reloading books. I couldn't get over all the sizes and shapes of cartridges.

Aside from the cereal boxes and food jar labels in mom's kitchen, reloading books were some of my first reading primers. Quite often, when I would ask a question, dad would specify the book and tell me to look it up.
In school, you don't learn exclusively through books and reading or solely through asking questions of your teacher; one goes with the other and in order to ask the right questions, the book should come first.
A bit of an aside, but as an example of reading first and asking questions after. I remember one example of this from my childhood. I was maybe 7 years old and asked, "Dad, how come as the bullet gets heavier you use less powder and when the bullet gets lighter you use more powder? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Don't you need more pressure to push a heavier bullet?" That info isn't always in the standard reloading books, but without reading them, you might not think to ask that question.

As far as those who want their questions answered without having to do the research first? I have no desire to help those who won't help themselves. Also, as I posted earlier, I think those who are looking for the short cuts are the type of people who ultimately will pose a greater danger to themselves and others.

smokeywolf

[Love Life]

I learned to reload with a Speer manual, a lb of bullseye, 1,000 LRN bullets, and a RL550B. No mentor, no youtube, just me and the very well written instruction books.

[dragon813gt]

I learned to reload with a Speer manual, a lb of bullseye, 1,000 LRN bullets, and a RL550B. No mentor, no youtube, just me and the very well written instruction books.

Mine is close to this. It was a Lee turret, a jug of W231, 1k 115 grain Hornady RN bullets and Lee's manual. It's all you need until you get into reduced loads or push the limits. The Lee manual has loads for a lot of oddball calibers so this is one manual everyone should have.

[Animal]

I pick up used reloading manuals for a few bucks whenever I come across them. If someone wants to come over and learn I give them one. I tell them to come back after they've read the first few basic chapters. Out of the several times I've done this only one has done it. On one level it's upsetting, but on another I figure I saved allot of time.

I like that approach

[Animal]

Once I was old enough to look up a word in a dictionary, my mom started telling me to 'look it up in the dictionary' if I wanted to know what a particular word meant.

My grandmother had an Encyclopedia set and prompted me to use it when I had questions about people, places, events and so on. It was clear to me as a child that I was expected to do my own leg work.

I suppose it has a good bit to do with the way people are raised as well.

[tazman]

I suppose it has a good bit to do with the way people are raised as well.

So many things do.

[nrc]

Sometimes kids are impatient. Sometimes they want instant gratification. Sometimes not. Maybe even a majority of time they are impatient... I employ a large team of staff who are 15 to 20 years younger than I am. A good chunk of them exhibit the behavior you are describing.

The problem is that it is very easy to judge someone incorrectly or quickly even when you are having a face to face conversation with them - much worse on a forum like this when everyone is distanced from each other.

I have 20 manuals. Started collecting them a long time ago. For any given powder they will list a half dozen or dozen suggested powders, and they don't match from brand to brand. I have powders for the 4570 that work great in a Marlin with Jacketed bullets, and I asked a question here about powders (I wasn't asking for charge weights) for a cast boolit in a rifle with a barrel 14" longer than my Marlin, and with different rifling. One of the first responses I got was "go read a manual". I didn't take exception to it, but I also didn't find it particularly helpful.

I also teach youth Hunter Safety, and I have to say that every year fewer and fewer people join mainstream shooting - and fewer still than that will be casting. I'm not saying that we need to suffer fools - but we should keep an open mind with new people and/or give them the benefit of the doubt some time.

To answer the OP - "It depends. If you really want to know, ask them."

[smokeywolf]

nrc, Very well written. Very well indeed.

When someone such as yourself asks a question that is either not easily found in the manuals or gets multiple and varied answers from the different manuals. If they are told to "read the manual" and they already have, it is quick and easy to answer back, "Already checked, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, etc. My particular situation wasn't covered. Can anyone recommend another source?"

I won't pretend to speak for others on the forum, but I know that as I move into my senior years, I've become less tolerant of what I perceive to be weaknesses and idiosyncrasies in others. Thirty years ago I had the patience of an oyster; not so any more. Just ask my kids.

One of the quickest, albeit not surest ways of determining if someone has read a manual is by the question(s) they ask.

Casting and reloading is a serious hobby. Practiced by someone who is willing to perform their due diligence and acquire a couple of manuals, read them cover to cover a couple of times, then start asking questions; the hobby is safer than commuting to work on the L.A. freeway system. Practiced by someone who is not serious enough to study the procedures and nuances, who just wants to be spoon fed info that may in fact not even be right for his or her situation because they asked the wrong question, it can become a dangerous pursuit; admittedly, I have little patience with these folks.

There is a great deal of advantage in wading through a manual as opposed to being spoon-fed info by others or retrieving data which has been indexed on the Internet. When searching a manual for answers to a question, it is almost impossible not to accidentally absorb other and oft times critical or valuable info contained in a general manual.

smokeywolf

[TXGunNut]

There is a great deal of advantage in wading through a manual as opposed to being spoon-fed info by others or retrieving data which has been indexed on the Internet. When searching a manual for answers to a question, it is almost impossible not to accidentally absorb other and oft times critical or valuable info contained in a general manual...smokeywolf

Exactly! One can never learn as much by asking questions as one can learn by spending quality time with a manual. In my case some sections don't make sense the first time thru. With a little experience under my belt some begin to make more sense. Closer to home some stickies made little sense at first pass, after several thousand boolits they begin to make more sense.

[Lonegun1894]

When I was taught, I was deployed overseas with some limited internet access. I bought a Lee Anniversary Kit, and several manuals. My equipment went to my parents house in the US, and the first three manuals went to me to read as time allowed. By the time I got home, I had read each of the manuals at least twice, before I even set eyes on my equipment. My first loading session was with a very good friend who is more like a grandfather to me than anything else, who walked me through loading my first 50rds of .45 ACP. He then cut me loose, with instructions to find my own answers in the manual, and if unable to, or if I was going to deviate, to call him or come over and we would discuss it. Weather in person or over the phone, I would ask a question, and his response the first few times was "what does the manual say?". After a few times, I learned, and my questions turned into "I want to do XYZ, the manuals say ABC, but my concern/deviation from the manual is DEF, what should I do and why?" I learned a lot more this way, and learned it a lot faster. Now he did allow me to make a few mistakes when I wouldn't listen, but they were never mistakes that would be dangerous. For example, I wanted to try using some .308" Hornady XTPs in full power .30-06 loads because I thought they would be great coyote loads with next to no drop out to God only knows how far, and wouldn't listen that they may disintegrate due to the RPMs. Boy was I wrong. But I learned. I also got some hairbrained ideas that actually worked out, but he always kept telling me to start low and move up if I needed, and what to watch out for along the way, even if it meant repeating what he had told me several times before in the past. But if I came to him with a question, and was unable to show any kind of effort or even attempt to find the info myself, I would be told to come back or call back, or just sit down with his loading manuals if I didn't have mine with me while he would make us some coffee while I tried to look things up myself. We went through a lot of coffee in those days, and some days, we still do, but at least it's a more educated conversation now than it was back then. That's how I try to see new people today, because I was there once too, and still some days feel like I haven't progressed much, but I will try to help if I think they're honestly trying to learn, and not just get a simple answer handed to them with no effort on their part.

[btroj]

It comes down the difference between those who really want to learn and those who want to be told what to do and just let others do the thinking.

Wait, there is a third group, the scary ones. These are the guys with no manuals who either ignore all advice or don't ask questions. They just throw stuff together willy nilly and figure the gun can handle it.

I don't mind helping but don't ask me to do the work for you. Learning is an active process, not passive.

I always tell my daughter to think with her mind, not her mouth.

[UBER7MM]

It comes down the difference between those who really want to learn and those who want to be told what to do and just let others do the thinking.

Wait, there is a third group, the scary ones. These are the guys with no manuals who either ignore all advice or don't ask questions. They just throw stuff together willy nilly and figure the gun can handle it.

I don't mind helping but don't ask me to do the work for you. Learning is an active process, not passive.

I always tell my daughter to think with her mind, not her mouth.


+ 1 bTroj,

My sentiments exactly. The third scary group members are the ones that can't or won't take constructive criticism at all. I stay well away from them.

[trapper9260]

When I learn how to reload was from the book with my dad to do shotgun and then I took up rifle and handgun on my own and I have read the book first and went from there.yes there is some things like others have stated that do not understand it all and go back to try again.But somethings just not sure about I will ask.I did not had any mentor when I first started like stated.I did not know what a mentor was until years after it was out.I come on here and other sites to learn and help who I can. But like others stated if someone is not willing to get a book to start then how are they able to learn in the first place.When the computer is down what will one do about all there data and info they save.That is the main reason I want to have a book and if something on the internet is what I need to go back on I will print or write it down.That way i will always have it.I know there is too many do not know the basics of learning.Some do not know how to write there own name let alone what the 50 states are.It is a new world and it is change more then someone us is able to keep up.Some do not want to help them self by reading about what they want to do.When I was in the navy and had to do checks on what I need to keep going ,if I did not had my PMS card all the time on me with all the info of how to do the checks I would be in deep water more ways then one.

[Aunegl]

Wait, there is a third group, the scary ones. These are the guys with no manuals who either ignore all advice or don't ask questions. They just throw stuff together willy nilly and figure the gun can handle it.



Is that the "Here hold my beer and watch this sh**" group?

[JSnover]

some even publish refuted old wives tales

And you haven't seem any of that on the web? I couldn't begin to count the number of wives tales and myths repeated on this site alone, although you're right in a sense: there is always someone ready to dispel them


what I find on here, that is far more valuable than a manual, is the personal experiences of the seasoned reloaders, who give significant insight into what people are looking for.

Why not have both?

How would YOU feel if everytime you had a question, you were told to shut up and go read a manual?

It's a bit like making sure a student did their homework. I'll share my experience IF someone is willing to work as hard as I did to learn the skill in question. But if that person didn't read the manual just because they're too lazy to crack a book, then I'm a little bit offended by them picking my brain. In that case, every time I answer a question that could be found in manual, I'd like to charge them a portion of the cover price for each answer. It will save them the unbearable agony of having to read and it will help me recover the cost of those worthless books :kidding:

[btroj]

Is that the "Here hold my beer and watch this sh**" group?

Yep. They scare me immensely.

[JSnover]

For centuries, information was published in books. A lot of it still has not been posted to the web. Every time you ask a question, there's a good chance you'll get an answer from someone who has read the book.

[Bzcraig]

This can be a difficult topic for me because each time I read one of the posts in question, it requires me to TRY to interpret, within the question, if the asker has done more than just ask. Like all of you I believe reading is the best and first thing that needs to be encouraged before we respond to such questions. I have seen responses that are just plain rude i.e. 'obviously you haven't read the stickies, start there.' Though that is probably correct, but not necessarily so, that response does not lend itself to being helpful compared to asking the question, 'have you read the stickies?' That question, in my opinion, will go much further than the previous statement and expose the asker's intentions. I will be the first to admit I do everything I can to keep my responses brief cause I don't like to type and will often avoid those questions that require a lengthy response. If there were a way that new members would be required to at least click on every sticky and list the manuals they possess before getting full site access, we would then be able to call them on those questions that are 'give me a fish' instead of 'teach me how to fish.' Just my $.02