38 special on whitetail any exeriences out their!

[marlinman80]

I was just wondering if any of ya'll have had any success using a 38 secial for deer hunting. I was thinking a 158 grain swc at 900 fps would do the job. In particular if it was loaded with a pure lead bullet and the range was short less than 75 yards. I have an old 5 screw model 14 masterpeice and thought it would be a blast to send that bullet into a deer. I don't see any reason it shouldn't work. This load goe thru 5-6 inches of green yellow pine why not thru the rib cage and heart and lungs of a whitetail. Any feed back would be very appreciated.

[richhodg66]

Never have, but I have shot them close enough that even I (I'm decent, but not the pistolero some of these guys are) could have placed shots very carefully. I think it would do it, just please be sure you have the patience to wait for an absolutely perfect shot.

[Outpost75]

I have killed several smaller whitetails with .38 Special, being fired in an English rook rifle, rechambered from a .360 No.5, ammunition being a 180-grain wide, flatnose, cast 1:30 tin-lead, with a charge of 4 grains of Bullseye, NEI #161A bullet, seated to 1.55" OAL, velocity 980 fps from a 25" barrel. Mostly head and neck shots within 25-40 yards.

[dk17hmr]

Lets get this out of the way because someone will say it...if a 22lr or an arrow...blah blah blah...doesn't really matter because its not the same.

I probably wouldn't use a 38 special (handgun) on purpose, but if I were to hunt with it I would hunt with it like I was hunting with a recurve bow....get in close and put it in the lung and let the projectile do its work.

[Outpost75]

Accurate shot placement and knowledge of deer anatomy is more important than energy.

You want full caliber crush with through and through complete penetration and pinpoint accuracy.

[uscra112]

Gerald Averill claimed to have killed numerous "eatin' size" deer in the 1930s, using a 6" revolver, but we all know that today's deer are much tougher than the Maine woods Depression variety. Takes at least a .357 Max for anything over 30 feet. [smilie=1:

[marlinman80]

I wouldn't drop the hammer on an iffy shot. I think it would work thru the vitals just fine though.

[Lefty Red]

At the range the OP suggested, I would want a head/spine shot. Yeah, I have shot deer with 22short to long bow. But I just don't want an animal to suffer. If its not a perfect shot, I wouldn't even think about it. If it doesn't drop the animal immediately, its not a perfect shot.

Lefty

[Reg]

You could jump out of a tree with a sharp stick in your teeth and stab the poor thing to death I suppose but it makes more sense to take Bob Ruarks advice and "Use enough gun".
Think I would go up in the power dept. a bit.

[leftiye]

I'd be nervous, just like you aparently are. That said, If .44 cal revolvers in the 900 fps range will do it, the 35 will too. But (gotta have a but), it's probly getting iffy.

[d garfield]

IF YOU CAN AFFORD ANYTHING BIGGER GET IT. I know it has been done,but come on.:Fire:

[MostlyLeverGuns]

So that beautiful trophy buck shows up 85 yards out, the shot angle is not good. Will you take the shot or let him walk away??

[Ben]

I have a Marlin 1894 , 38 Special ( Yes a 38 Spec. not a 357 Mag.).

I also have a Rossi 92 in 357 Mag.

I love both rifles and enjoy shooting both of them.

As for using them on deer, NO........I'll get out my Weatherby, 358 Win. loaded with 262 gr. HPs at 1850 fps for white tails.

Ben

[TCLouis]

NOT an expert in the least, but I am guessing if one dropped the 75 to 25 yards and . . .AND

Was an excellent shot

AND

Chose only a well placed animal

AND a well place shot,

Then it would all come together.

I am sure one could shoot a deer at 75 yards with 9 900 ft/sec 35 caliber boolit and kill it, just so many variables including the length of time from boolit impact until deers death

[Old School Big Bore]

My lifelong huntin buddy killed a small TX Hill Country whitetail with a .36 cap & ball and that's less energy & poor projectile shape/mass. BUT he did it at <20 yd and waited for the perfect presentation. If you can get a grand out of that SWC and the deer are populous enough to pass up iffy shots, and you know what distance you can stay on the vitals, go for it. I wouldn't do pure lead, though, you want the boolit hard enough for the best possible accuracy - it doesn't take much hardening but straight pure is too soft.

[Outpost75]

During the Depression my Dad fed his family with a 6" barrel Colt Army Special in .32-20 It would not be your first choice as a deer gun, but Dad says he used it because it killed better than a .22 rifle and was more accurate than a .36 Colt Navy, the only other guns they had on the farm in those days.

[runfiverun]

if you are comfortable with it, go for it.
I'd do a little more testing of the projectile on some umm media that resembles a deers bodies make-up.
you might not want the boolit all that soft.

[Outpost75]

At subsonic velocity, and for a flat-nosed, solid bullet, a 1:40 tin/lead alloy, the same as used in the old blackpowder loads, expands somewhat. A hollow point of soft 8BHN alloy will expand nicely above 900 fps and stay together, with some reduction in penetration Harder alloy such as wheelweights about 12 BHN does not expand at all below about 1300 fps and is apt to fragment if hollowpointed.

[NSB]

Two bullets out of the same deer. Both shots were within three inches of each other and each one was found under the hide on the off side. Both went through the ribs. This was from full power 357mag loads. One shot at around 30yds and the second at around 90 yes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the 38Spl is underpowered at 75yds. The fact that you ask the question seems to indicate that you may not have the experience or expertise to attempt this. Use enough gun and be able to hit where you're aiming.
98978

[Crash_Corrigan]

I was out hunting rabbits with a Colt Woodsman .22 lr and a short 4" bbl one lazy summer day in '58... I had no luck and I had climbed up onto a mossy rock ledge for a nap. Some noise woke me and when I opened my eyes I saw a Deer about five feet away. It had clambered up about halfway to my ledge and was facing me dead on. My hand was on the gun. I slipped off the safety and not even taking aim I let off one shot.

It drilled that poor creature between the eyes and she dropped like a stone without a sound. I gutted her with my belt knife and half dragged/carried her home and my Dad helped me butcher the carcass and we had very tender Venison for the remainder of the summer.

Years later, while hunting officially with a license and everything and with my Grandpa's Winchester 30-30 I had a shot at a deer. This time it was a buck at about 25 yds and after I had lined up the sights I could not find it within myself to pull the trigger. All I could see was the eyes of the deer I had illegally taken years earlier with the .22. I watched the deer for a time and then quietly left the woods never to hunt again for deer.

Yes a tiny .22 lr will take a deer. Years later as a Police Officer I had to shoot a man. I did not hesitate nor did I miss but the center mass shot did not kill him. It hardly slowed him down and I have the scars from his knife on my left arm to prove it. He eventually died in jail from the infection from that shot but that was weeks later. My shot went through and through and failed to hit any major organs other than his lungs. That round was a .38 Special lead SWC design of 158 gr and if I shot him again today it would be with a 9 mm Corbon Pow'r Ball and I know that this round would open up and cause major problems for him. Maybe not stop him but really hurt much worse than a plain lead SWC round.

[308w]

Whats the guys name with the Browning hi power web sight?, (pause to look it up) Its Stephen Camp, great sight with some good reading, he has killed several deer with 45 acp and 9mm handguns, and with a 6 or so inch barrel there is no reason a 38 can't be loaded to equal a 9mm, so it all boils down to placement, no doubt it can be done. Get close, bow range, put it through the lungs and heart and get your knife sharp!

[Hickok]

Just my experience when hunting deer with a revolver, a good rule of thumb is use a revolver cartridge that has a 4 or a 5 in the name, i.e., 357, .44, .45 etc. There are alot more variables involved, but this is a good rule to start with in wheelguns.

[357maximum]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220054-Buck-Kill-with-32-20-ballistics



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220308-Tasty-little-trophy



Deer are not kevlar coated....PERIOD

[308w]

357maximum, Thats what I'm talking about!!!!

[wch]

Lets get this out of the way because someone will say it...if a 22lr or an arrow...blah blah blah...doesn't really matter because its not the same.

I probably wouldn't use a 38 special (handgun) on purpose, but if I were to hunt with it I would hunt with it like I was hunting with a recurve bow....get in close and put it in the lung and let the projectile do its work.
That's just what I do: I hunt from a tree stand and let them get into close bow range (about 30-40 feet) and let the bullet do the job.

[nekshot]

If I had to use a 38spl or 9mm or the same energy level handgun I would treat it like a bow and no fruther. I don't like to take deer beyond 35 yard with my bow and that would be the same for "your" specific thread question. This is why God created man to invent magnum handgun cartridges so we can kill humanely fruther out!

[TXGunNut]

Whats the guys name with the Browning hi power web sight?, (pause to look it up) Its Stephen Camp, great sight with some good reading, he has killed several deer with 45 acp and 9mm handguns, and with a 6 or so inch barrel there is no reason a 38 can't be loaded to equal a 9mm, so it all boils down to placement, no doubt it can be done. Get close, bow range, put it through the lungs and heart and get your knife sharp!

We lost Steve a few years back but he was an accomplished pistol shooter and for the most part a patient man. He must have been, he was my mentor in the early years of my reloading career.;-)

[308w]

TXGunNut, I did not know he had passed, I never had the priviledge to know him but his writing and experiences and firearm likes mostly mirrored mine a whole lot. We are diminished, Thanks for the update.

[Jupiter7]

Mr. Camp was a big loss.


On topic: if I was serious about attempting this, expansion would be the least of my worries. I'd want heavier 180gr+with decent flat meplat and tough enough alloy to prevent too much bullet disruption. Look at the subsonic 300blk hunters. Placement trumps everything. Possible? Yes, with limits.

[DougGuy]

It's possible, yes, on paper, yes, in a perfect world, yes, in the real world deer woods? I wouldn't even consider such a questionable effort. Like others have said use enough gun!

The .38 spl falls below the 400ft/lb minimum energy requirement for handguns in Virginia, and it falls far below my common sense and judgement as a hunter AND a shooter. I am really surprised that someone has actually posted such a topic!

[Char-Gar]

Whitetail deer are not hard to kill at short to moderate range if hit in the right place. 50 plus years ago I killed several with a 70 grain cast bullet out of a 25-20 Model 92 Winchester. I should think the 38 Special will do as well.

That said, folks do sorts of things that press tools into use, that are not the best tool for the job. Just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.

If a fellow has a choice there are far superior tools with which to hunt deer than either the 25-20 or the 38 Special.

[Wolfer]

Like some of you I've not found deer hard to kill if hit right.
Can I kill a deer with a 38 spl? YES
Will I ever intentionly deer hunt with one? Probably not.

The lowest powered gun I've ever killed a deer with is a 58 rem cap and ball. Two deer actually.
The boolit was the lee 452-200 RF with a cyl of fffg. 700 fps.

Oddly enough the end result pretty much mirrored the results I see from my 45 colt with 452-429 HP at 1070 fps.
Can it be done? Certainly. Should it? Eh

[marlinman80]

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb. I've killed 23 deer with a 22 magnum legal in north carolina. All I hunt with are cast bullets in all my guns. 30-30 8mm mauser 35 whelen, 44 special 45 acp and 30-06. I am not asking for critsism. just if anyone had any experience doing it. (those that can do those that can't try to teach)

[Ben]

marlinman80

those that can do those that can't try to teach

That is a pretty good slam on teachers, THANKS from a retired teacher !


Ben

[Doc_Stihl]

The question I have is "how many deer are shot with factory 30/06 ammo and not collected?"

[M-Tecs]

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb.

Most deers eyes are about 1 ¼”. That’s better than world record performance. Call me skeptical.

On a side note my father in-law (as a boy) used to kill two or three moose a year with a 25-20. He lived in remote Alaska. This was in the 20’s and 30’s. They had no horses or vehicles. They had a 303 and a 25-20. When moose came into the garden they let it eat enough to get comfortable then a couple of shots to the ribs with the 25-20. This did not scare it. In a minute or two it would wobble and fall over. If they shot it with the 303 it would run off and they would have to carry the meat back. He believes that the 25-20 is the best moose rifle even. I would like to argue with him but he has killed a lot more moose than I ever will.

[357maximum]

The question I have is "how many deer are shot with factory 30/06 ammo and not collected?"

I would assume that answer to be ALOT, but personally I tend to hold the members here to a bit higher standing than the orange army that enters this area every season spraying bullets and buckshot wherever they go.

If the man wants ot take a bowhunters mindset and kill a deer with his beloved 38 and it is legal....I say go for it......it is up to each one of us to know their limits. Just because one guy can kill deer with a 38 does not mean all should try, and going by some of the comments here......alot of you all should be carrying a 50BMG I spose....... I am pretty sure I could kill a deer with a good wristrocket, but as of yet I have not been hungry/brave/brazen enough to try that theory out. The 30 Badger is about as light as I have taken my thoughts....well other than killing deer with sharp stones mounted on a stick and then propelled by another slightly larger stick. :lol:

If you can do it...do it....if you cannot/willnot please do not stand in the way of those that can/will....how hard is that?

[roverboy]

I would think that a .38 Spl. loaded to +P levels in a strong gun with a 158-170 gr. cast with a wide meplat would probably work ok. I'd keep my shots short, about 20-30 yards at the most. I know this has probably already been said though. My 2 pennies.:-D

[Cmm_3940]

'Because you can' is not the same as 'because you should'. For that matter, you could load .357 Magnum in .38 brass just to say you did it. I certainly wouldn't recommend it.

[marlinman80]

How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

[marlinman80]

The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy. The 38 special is one of the most accurate pistol cartridges ever desinged. A good one should group at 2" at 100 yards (at least) these were some of the most accurate pistols S&W ever made Y'all!! Ed McGivern could shoot the phases of the moon out of thrown lead coins with this gun. I ain't him but I can hit a 1.25" target at 50 Yards consistentley. I can hit it in the eye but I am aiming for the Heart!

[TXGunNut]

Most deers eyes are about 1 ¼”. That’s better than world record performance. Call me skeptical.
-M-Tecs

Not really, it's actually well within the capability of the M14. I've actually shot that level of accuracy with a M586 and feel the M14 is capable as well. OTOH my 586 is in the safe when I'm out deer hunting.

[M-Tecs]

How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html

At 50yds the x ring is 1.695 and the ten ring is 3.36

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/07/cabot-guns-repeats-as-nra-national-pistol-champion/#axzz2vRFmQtKM

In attendance and supporting his shooters, Cabot Guns President and Gun Designer Rob Bianchin was proud to witness “a sensational performance by Brian Zins; I watched him score several perfect ‘100’ point target at 50 yards in slow-fire, and another perfect ‘100’ point target at 25 yards in rapid-fire, with all ten shots landing ’bullseye’ X’s” – meaning that they were scored hits on a 1.7 inch diameter ring.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=314406

I have fired several 100's with the .45 on the 50yd Bullseye target. The single best one had 8 rounds inside, or touching the 1.7" X-ring with the other two well inside the 3.36" 10-ring. No documentation though.

The National Record for the 20 shot Slowfire Match at 50 yds. is 200-11X, fired by Bonnie Harmon in 1982.
Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb.

1 ¼” at 50 all the time is well under the National record.

[308w]

I've chimed in once here so why not once more... To me there is a difference in what is a good revolver to hunt deer with and could I kill a deer with a 38 special.

When I bowhunt I know and am ok with the fact that I may very well see legal deer inside my kill radius with my bow(30 or so yards) and not have a ethical shot. Its happened many times, when I first started I kept up with it and I averaged 4 or 5 in range for every deer I killed/shot. As I got better with still hunting and treestand antics that number came down some but never will it be every deer shot thats in range.
I see the 38 special in the same vain. If a as perfect as I can get shot through both lungs, and maybe even lungs and heart did not present itself, I did not shoot. I never lost but 2 or 3 deer out of over 50 bowkilled animals too. If the same judgement is applied to the 38 the results will be the same, dead deer........

[Screwbolts]

Yes your load will kill deer, I have harvested 5 with a similar load from a SS rook rifle I built. My Load w\ 158-160 gr boolitz crono 1070 from my rifle, the first boolits used were from an old Lyman mold 358316 I believe. 158 gr round FN, and an old Ohaus 158 SWC , ACWWs 4.0 of BE.

The WC penetrated 28" of deer at 47 yards/ from a tree stand, totally destroyed the point of the shoulder going in angling rearward came to rest under the hide low in the very back of the rib cage opposite side. I still have the Boolit on a shelf above my casting bench.

Later in the same day at 90 yards the lyman completely penetrated the ribs right behind the front shoulder of a medium sized 9 pt. it ran 15 yards, stopped to look around when the second one penetrated both front shoulders. it dropped at the second shot that was actually not needed. At that range the whoop of the boolit hitting the deer was nearly as load as the rifle. :-)

I now use the NOE 160 WFN in same rifle. My Father and nieces, Have harvested many deer with the NOE 180 WFN same rifle and load of BE.



Aim small hit small

[dogknott]

I'm new to the handgun world, but no stranger to hunting. I see the term "perfect shot" with a smaller cal. firearm. I REALLY hope no one would take a NOT PERFECT shot with a large cal. hi velocity rifle or handgun.
We cant use 38spl in Iowa on deer, but as most have stated, know your limitations...

[Hickok]

After reading this whole thread with interest, and not meaning any criticism at all, if I was going to bust a deer with a .38, I would want bow range, about 30 yards or less, and waiting for a good shot, when the doe......aaah......big buck turns his head, I would put a good cast boolit right behind his ear.

Not a big fan of head shots on deer, but this the shot I would prefer in this situation.

[nekshot]

I rarely get perfect shots with rifle hunting, thats why I use enough to git er done with a little left over!

[Petrol & Powder]

Gerald Averill claimed to have killed numerous "eatin' size" deer in the 1930s, using a 6" revolver, but we all know that today's deer are much tougher than the Maine woods Depression variety. Takes at least a .357 Max for anything over 30 feet. [smilie=1:

:bigsmyl2: One would think our current deer have Kevlar hide based on the cartridges used. :smile:

[308w]

One would think our current deer have Kevlar hide based on the cartridges used....

Ain't it the truth!!!!

[SSGOldfart]

first check and see if using a 38cal is legal where hunt?? some places it's not large enough to meet the min caliber by law. then placed your shots very carefully.

[JSnover]

FIRST prove you can hit the sweet spot (eye, ear, whatever) consistently at that distance with that gun and with that load. THEN ask the guru if it's a good idea. Don't plan your hunt based on someone else's ability.

[35remington]

Why, in this era of supermarkets and such, is it a rational decision to use something that borders on totally inadequate?

Sure, if it was the only gun you had, and the family was starving..........but that line of reasoning is pretty much nonsense. This isn't a subsistence hunt, nor is there some special medal you're awarded when you let a shot animal live longer and suffer for a greater time than you could have if something reasonable had been used.

Which is exactly what we're talking about.

Let me spell it out specifically.

There are guns and loads, the ones mentioned here included, that have "eat up to the hole" ballistics. In other words, significant damage is limited to the size of the wound channel, which is narrow and barely larger than the bullet in soft tissue.

The most likely hit is a lung shot. If you're lucky, it's a double lung shot. Superimpose a 38 caliber hole over a deer's lungs and it's obvious that a considerable time is required for bleed out, and time of death could run in to the low minutes instead of seconds, which is the alternative when something more powerful is used that tears a bigger hole.

What is being said is essentially this:

"I was thinking about killing a deer slowly with a .38 Special. What do you guys all think?"

Now c'mon. Given an alternative between this and suggesting killing it faster, what do you think the answer should be?

We all.......long, long ago.....should have gotten over this fetish of seeing how small a cartridge we can use to kill something, bordering on downright unneeded pain and suffering.

My own state, Nebraska, suggests that a minimum of 400 ft/lbs. is needed at 50 yards to be legal for killing deer size game with a pistol. Unless you want to state that Nebraska doesn't have the faintest idea of what it's talking about (and I bet none will be so bold) then we're considering using a pistol cartridge that generates about 75% of that at the muzzle.....and that's not even in the ballpark.

My prediction:

Double lung a deer with a 38 Special and wait a longer than humane time for it to die. If you're comfortable with killing deer slowly, have at it, but not with my blessings. The choice to use something known to be adequate instead of strongly suspected to be bordering on inhumane should be an easy one.

Remember, it ain't a subsistence hunt.....and morality always enters into the hunting equation when it isn't (your) life and death on the line.

The world is absolutely full of vastly superior deer hunting cartridges. Go find one of them. It is not at all hard to do.

[Ben]

Why, in this era of supermarkets and such, is it a rational decision to use something that borders on totally inadequate?

Sure, if it was the only gun you had, and the family was starving..........but that line of reasoning is pretty much nonsense. This isn't a subsistence hunt, nor is there some special medal you're awarded when you let a shot animal live longer and suffer for a greater time than you could have if something reasonable had been used.

Which is exactly what we're talking about.

Let me spell it out specifically.

There are guns and loads, the ones mentioned here included, that have "eat up to the hole" ballistics. In other words, significant damage is limited to the size of the wound channel, which is narrow and barely larger than the bullet in soft tissue.

The most likely hit is a lung shot. If you're lucky, it's a double lung shot. Superimpose a 38 caliber hole over a deer's lungs and it's obvious that a considerable time is required for bleed out, and time of death could run in to the low minutes instead of seconds, which is the alternative when something more powerful is used that tears a bigger hole.

What is being said is essentially this:

"I was thinking about killing a deer slowly with a .38 Special. What do you guys all think?"

Now c'mon. Given an alternative between this and suggesting killing it faster, what do you think the answer should be?

We all.......long, long ago.....should have gotten over this fetish of seeing how small a cartridge we can use to kill something, bordering on downright unneeded pain and suffering.

My own state, Nebraska, suggests that a minimum of 400 ft/lbs. is needed at 50 yards to be legal for killing deer size game with a pistol. Unless you want to state that Nebraska doesn't have the faintest idea of what it's talking about (and I bet none will be so bold) then we're considering using a pistol cartridge that generates about 75% of that at the muzzle.....and that's not even in the ballpark.

My prediction:

Double lung a deer with a 38 Special and wait a longer than humane time for it to die. If you're comfortable with killing deer slowly, have at it, but not with my blessings. The choice to use something known to be adequate instead of strongly suspected to be bordering on inhumane should be an easy one.

Remember, it ain't a subsistence hunt.....and morality always enters into the hunting equation when it isn't (your) life and death on the line.

The world is absolutely full of vastly superior deer hunting cartridges. Go find one of them. It is not at all hard to do.

Couldn't have been spoken better .

BRAVO !

Ben

[Char-Gar]

Why, in this era of supermarkets and such, is it a rational decision to use something that borders on totally inadequate?

Sure, if it was the only gun you had, and the family was starving..........but that line of reasoning is pretty much nonsense. This isn't a subsistence hunt, nor is there some special medal you're awarded when you let a shot animal live longer and suffer for a greater time than you could have if something reasonable had been used.

Which is exactly what we're talking about.

Let me spell it out specifically.

There are guns and loads, the ones mentioned here included, that have "eat up to the hole" ballistics. In other words, significant damage is limited to the size of the wound channel, which is narrow and barely larger than the bullet in soft tissue.

The most likely hit is a lung shot. If you're lucky, it's a double lung shot. Superimpose a 38 caliber hole over a deer's lungs and it's obvious that a considerable time is required for bleed out, and time of death could run in to the low minutes instead of seconds, which is the alternative when something more powerful is used that tears a bigger hole.

What is being said is essentially this:

"I was thinking about killing a deer slowly with a .38 Special. What do you guys all think?"

Now c'mon. Given an alternative between this and suggesting killing it faster, what do you think the answer should be?

We all.......long, long ago.....should have gotten over this fetish of seeing how small a cartridge we can use to kill something, bordering on downright unneeded pain and suffering.

My own state, Nebraska, suggests that a minimum of 400 ft/lbs. is needed at 50 yards to be legal for killing deer size game with a pistol. Unless you want to state that Nebraska doesn't have the faintest idea of what it's talking about (and I bet none will be so bold) then we're considering using a pistol cartridge that generates about 75% of that at the muzzle.....and that's not even in the ballpark.

My prediction:

Double lung a deer with a 38 Special and wait a longer than humane time for it to die. If you're comfortable with killing deer slowly, have at it, but not with my blessings. The choice to use something known to be adequate instead of strongly suspected to be bordering on inhumane should be an easy one.

Remember, it ain't a subsistence hunt.....and morality always enters into the hunting equation when it isn't (your) life and death on the line.

The world is absolutely full of vastly superior deer hunting cartridges. Go find one of them. It is not at all hard to do.

Yep and amen!!

[357maximum]

I have killed almost 200 deer and I have yet to see one punched solidly in the lungs with any form of lethal projectile go more than 110 yards on a "death run" and last more than 10 seconds or so. The three times that I have seen a deer go farther .....it was because I failed to do my job and a bigger gun/bazooka would not have fixed MY ERROR in projectile placement. AN ICBM may have fixed my goof, but what the **** ever makes ya'll happy I guess.


At some point in any senseless conversation a sensible man must just throw his hands into the air, say *** out loud, and walk away shaking his head I guess.

[35remington]

357, I have, and it occurred with just the sort of ballistics we're talking about here.

And not surprisingly so. When the damage to the lungs is minimal, enough function remains in that organ to allow the animal to live a considerable time......and they do.

At some point, rejoicing in small caliber, low bullet energy use become a ghoulish celebration. The accolades thrown about are more a recognition that the user got lucky if the animal was recovered after the shot than an acknowledgement that his choice in calibers and cartridges was a correct one.

284 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, as the OP proposes, is just flat too little for the task at hand. It's more than okay to say that.

With so many other cartridges of greater suitability available, correctly pointing out that planned usage is likely to give substandard results is simply the right thing to do.

I can save the OP a lot of grief and trouble in so doing. Sorry, but slapping him on the back and saying "whatever ya wanna do is great" isn't my thing. I know better than that.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not advocating using a 38 Special to take a deer; there are far better options available. However, I believe that given the right circumstances, it would be possible to cleanly kill a deer with a 158gr 38 Special projectile. The margin of error would be fairly small and in light of the fact that far better options are available; one could reasonably question the responsibility of attempting that shot.


Now, the opposite end of the spectrum is the current views that deer have somehow become bulletproof.
Using enough gun is responsible and prudent. Using a little more than what is considered adequate certainly doesn't hurt anything. However, using a 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag or 375 H&H to attempt to take whitetail deer at short ranges - seems a bit foolish to me.
Will a huge magnum kill deer? Absolutely.
Would I use it if it was my only option and I needed to kill a deer? Yes
Would it be my first choice? Never. Of course, a 38 Special wouldn't be my first choice either.

[badgeredd]

Me thinks some people have read far too many "expert" gun writer's articles. Shot placement is the thing to get it done first and foremost. Second is to KNOW your own effective range. Third is to be an ethical hunter (I personally do not consider head shots ethical) and to take shots only if they are truly do-able by yourself. How many foot pounds of energy does a 45 pound recurve generate, by the way?

Edd

[Changeling]

It's amazing how many experts here agree that .38 is OK if one just hits the sweet spot (so to speak) ! This is the first time I have ever been ashamed of being a member here! There have been countless "real world" experts that have explained the problems with small caliber projectiles at a multitude of velocities and projectiles. However some of you just don't seem to get it, or care!

The Deer is a very majestic animal that has fed thousands upon thousands of people through out history and hopefully will continue to do so.
It is the back bone of all the people I know and "RESPECT" in regard to hunting, not one who disrespects it in the above examples!

However some of you seem to regard it as some sort of "RAT" that you can kill/eradicate/mutilate at will without consequence. You are pitiful people in my experience!

All of you know or should know what is considered adequate without a doubt on killing a deer humanely. NOT some experiments on "WHAT IF". What the Hell is wrong with you people?
Whoops, There goes my Language again I said HELL, so I guess I will be banned for how I feel and believe!

[35remington]

What's wrong about this is everyone says "shot placement".......when shot placement with a handgun, especially, is often less than precise. One selects a cartridge based on its ability to perform when things go less than well, not perfectly. It would be the height of hubris (and not to mention vast inexperience) to presume that the shot could be placed "perfectly" every time with a handgun.

The bottom line is tissue damage is the bottom line. Comparing a bow to the energy issue is nonsensical because arrows have big sharp blades on the end, and handgun bullet do not. Tissue damage capabilities of a lead bullet 38 special are minimal.....too much so.

No one said deer are bulletproof, and suggesting a 38 special bullet at a low velocity is extremely marginal does not make a deer bulletproof, just rather "proof" to low levels of bullet energy and tissue damage. Correctly stated, it is reasonable to suggest that to kill deer quickly with lung shots, which by far are the most likely region to be hit with any deliberate shot with a hangun, more tissue destruction than a 38 special revolver produces is reasonable.

Reflect on just why, in "any gun" states, why there are not vast numbers of reports on hundred of deer being downed with 38 revolvers, or, with the popularity of handgun hunting in some publications, that the legions of successful practitioners aren't using 38's. Maybe, just maybe, they're getting it right in not using one.

[Char-Gar]

Why is it in discussion like this, the ethics of the situation all too often gets swept under the rug. Folks seem to focus in on "can it be done" rather than also ask "should it be done". Life is a whole series of value decisions and that includes killing animals.

What relevance does some hungry soul, who needs to feed his family during the Great Depression, have to do with hunting deer today? Has Sportsmanship been entirely replaced with killing for killings sake?

I was raised to ask what is the right thing to do, in every situation. Morals and values are the building blocks of character. I suspect some of those reading this won't have a clue what hunting deer with a 38 Special has to do with morals, values, ethics and character.

The bottom line is if somebody showed up on my land wanting to shoot a deer with a 38 Special, I would show them the gate and the road back to where they had come from. If they didn't understand why, I would lock the gate behind them after they had gone.

[35remington]

"Folks seem to focus in on "can it be done" rather than also ask "should it be done"."

Bingo.

The answer, when there are at least several hundred cartridges out there that are vastly better suited, is it shouldn't be done.

To choose otherwise and employ a 38 revolver of such ballistics is to tacitly admit you could have shot the deer with another cartridge that would have done the job much more humanely.......but opted to kill the deer much more slowly. On purpose.

Such, quite frankly, is bordering on the sadistic.

[Dave C.]

Back in the early 70's I saw first hand how effective a 38 spl is for deer.
My dad was a deputy warden and at that time was called to deer vs. car crashes.
Well when we got to the deer it was badly injured but still had it's head up.
The local cop ask if he could put it down with his service revolver, a 38 spl 158 swc
factory rounds. Well he shot it point blank in the side of the head, it went down instantly.
In about 10 secounds the deers head was up and looking at us! The secound round did the job.
Do you still want to use your 38? My dads favorite wepon to put cripled deer down?
A tire iron.

Dave C.

I saw this first hand.

[JSnover]

It's amazing how many experts here agree that .38 is OK if one just hits the sweet spot (so to speak) !
Read the whole thread again, seems to me the majority don't think this is a good idea, were just trying to go easy on the OP.
I don't care if he can shoot the pubes off a grasshopper at 400, 38spl is not enough gun.

Happy?

[TXGunNut]

FIRST prove you can hit the sweet spot (eye, ear, whatever) consistently at that distance with that gun and with that load. THEN ask the guru if it's a good idea. Don't plan your hunt based on someone else's ability.

Agreed, just because the gun can do it doesn't mean I can do it. Even when I could do it, I didn't because there were too many things that could go wrong. Once a PPC match director watched me put my first five rounds @ 50 yds into a little over an inch, the sixth was only a little outside that group. The other 18 rounds were decent but unremarkable. I was having a good day under optimal conditions. So yes, I can (or could) do it but I darn sure wouldn't bet on it.

[BruceB]

Well, thank Heaven!

It took a while for the sensible folk to pipe up, but they have finally weighed-in with the ETHICAL, SENSIBLE point of view.

Survival and subsistence (i.e.: NECESSITY) casts an entirely-different light on this question. If such were my situation, I'd be out there hunting with almost anything I could lay my hands on. As it is right now, Chargar, Ben, 35Remington etc etc have vocalized the position very well.

Can it be done with the .38? Possibly. SHOULD it be done (or even attempted) with the .38? Absolutely not.

I once met a person (no "man" in my book) who informed me that he was going hunting Wood Bison with a .220 Swift. I in turn informed HIM that if I met him hunting bison with that rifle, he'd be walking the 300-plus miles home.... because his truck would be trying to digest a 400-grain .404 Jeffery bullet in its engine room. I meant it, too.... but he was shocked even as he believed what I said.

That was an extreme case, but different only in degree from proposing the use of an inadequate firearm for use on ANY game animal.

Such is the case with the .38 on deer. I trust that the original poster is FINALLY getting the correct message.

[Jeffrey]

Please don't. Speaking as someone who many years ago shot a deer with a 30 carbine, tracked it hundreds of yards, then lost it when it crossed a road. I regret that shot to this day. My 12 ga with buckshot or slugs would have been a far better deer gun. I was just ignorant. If all you have is a 38 pistol, and it's YOURS, and you need a deer gun, please trade it for a 12 ga pump or single shot. Find buckshot or slugs it likes, then take the animal responsibly and humanely.

[Jeffrey]

MM80, you state here ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232347-Preferred-rifle-bullet-alloy-hardness-for-medium-game/page2 post 33) that you've been hunting and taking deer the last 4 years with a 30-30? What's up with wanting to use a 38spl?

[DLCTEX]

I won't use a 38 to deer hunt. But if you examine the perameters set by many here then bow hunters must be totally unethical.

[35remington]

No.

A bow hunter's arrow does considerably more damage, with several razor sharp blades poking out of the front, than does a 38 special bullet in terms of tissue damage. No ethics conflict exists.

[45 2.1]

It's the boolit that does the work, not what cartridge it came from........ provided it has enough stuff to do the job. I have shot road killed deer (about 2-6 hours dead propped up in a lifelike pose) with the 38 special with a 140 gr. 360640 HP, the Lyman 358439 HP and some factory SWC loads. All were full 38 special loadings... not +P. The Lyman boolit went thru the ribcage crossways and kitty corner in all cases leaving a nickel size hole going out. The 360640 HP did likewise but had a little bigger exit hole. The factory SWC didn't do as well and had (when it did exit) a full caliber hole. Of course dead deer aren't as real a test as live, but deer deserve better than the 38...... unless you really need the meat to survive.

[marlinman80]

If your x ring is 1.7 and you put 20 .45 bullets in it your group would be 1.256 in btw. Learn how to measure a group M-tecs!!! Btw I am not talking about freehand fire, left hand in back pocket at 50 yards! I am talking about a supported shooting position at 0-75 yards with good solid dope on the pistol please go away and if you can't say anything useful to me don't say anything! Good Lord I don't plan on doing this duelist style at all. I am thinking shooting bar on my ladder stand and a 75 yard shot with suport and dope is not that unrealistic. I would not try it duelist style like your records try to proove! Show me the record group for a .38 special of a sand bag or rest at 50 yards!

[marlinman80]

Changeling:
I appreciate your ideas! I have lost one deer in my lifeat 25 yards with a remington 170 grain factory core lokt. I didn't see the old aged dogwood log behind the 1" around scrub pine standing behind. That 30-30 round bounced off the dogwood and cut her front legs off! I cried like a girl when she ran onto property I could not legaly go on. Out 0f 52 I have lost 1 deer . I am no trying to do any thing imoral just kill a deer from a fixed postion with an old dear to me pistol.

[starmac]

I guess a man has to do what he has to do, but don't ask everybody to understand. I own way more guns that will ever be shot at an animal, and they are all dear in a way.
I would kill a deer with a 38 special if that was all I owned, (and was hungry) but since the age of 9 I have always had something I would feel more comfortable using.

[Char-Gar]

Changeling:
I appreciate your ideas! I have lost one deer in my lifeat 25 yards with a remington 170 grain factory core lokt. I didn't see the old aged dogwood log behind the 1" around scrub pine standing behind. That 30-30 round bounced off the dogwood and cut her front legs off! I cried like a girl when she ran onto property I could not legaly go on. Out 0f 52 I have lost 1 deer . I am no trying to do any thing immoral just kill a deer from a fixed postion with an old dear to me pistol.

I have a dear to me Winchester 22 pump rifle but that is no reason for to take it deer hunting. That would place my feelings over sportsmanship and ethical hunting. That would be rather self centered of me, don't you think?

[M-Tecs]

If your x ring is 1.7 and you put 20 .45 bullets in it your group would be 1.256 in btw. Learn how to measure a group M-tecs!!! !

In scoring NRA targets if you touch the scoring ring it counts the highest value so with a 1.7” ring you could shoot a 2.058" group with a 38 and 2.152" with a 45 and still have all X’s.


Btw I am not talking about freehand fire, left hand in back pocket at 50 yards

Your other posts indicate it would be easy.


How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

or here


The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy.


In bullseye the top shooters are High Masters and since the current 50 yard record is 200-11x the best of the best can’t do 1 ¼” at 50 so it seems your OBG is the only one.
The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy.

You are not the only one that has access to a ransom rest. As the team armorer for a military team I have worked on and tested a fair number of Colt 1911 NM 38 Special Mid Range Wad Cutter's, S&W 52’s, S&W 14’s, 15’s, 19’s, 66’s, 586’s, 686’s and a single Colt Python 38 Spec. All guns were tested with Winchester or WW 148 wadcutter match. In addition some were tested with Federal Gold Medal Match and of all things Blazer Aluminum cased 148 wadcutter. Hand loads were also tested.

In all this testing I never saw a ½” group at 50 with a 38 and very few guns would do an inch. Some would do 1 ½” but most held 1 ¾” to 2 ½” at 50. We had 24 Colt 1911 NM 38 Special and none of the would do better than 3” most did 4” to 5”. A friend has a Pardini 32 S&W that will do 1/2 to 3/4" at 50 on a good day.

I actually have less of an issues with using a 38 for deer than some on this forum. I do question your perception of your shooting abilities.
Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb.


A ping pong ball is 1.38in. in diameter. Take a handful of them put them out a various hunting distances and using a hunting style shooting position see how many you hit.

You asked our opinion and mine is overconfidence coupled with a marginal caliber is a bad combination.

[Outpost75]

A deer is no harder to kill than a MAN. Sure, I would prefer an M1 Garand with Ball M2, but if a .38 Special is what I am issued when the hammer drops, you dance with the girl you brought. While the. 38 Special is not my preferred choice under all conditions, if a man has an accurate revolver and shoots it welll, within reasonable range, it will do the job.

All the rest is mental masturbation.

[starmac]

Does many agencys still use 38's as man stoppers. A ball peen hammer will do the same thing, if that is all one is considering. These threads crack me up.

[Cmm_3940]

No.

A bow hunter's arrow does considerably more damage, with several razor sharp blades poking out of the front, than does a 38 special bullet in terms of tissue damage. No ethics conflict exists.

This. We have minimum broadhead razor diameter regs here.

[35remington]

Outpost, the question isn't whether it will do the job. The question is whether it will do the job well, given the many better alternatives available.

In that light, comparatively, it will do the job in an inefficient and less than humane manner. This isn't an argument to use whatever is capable of making a hole, but rather to use what is humanely suitable.

Any extensive undertaking involving a 158 grain bullet at 900 fps would reveal it killed deer poorly and allowed them to live an excessively long time after being hit compared to better choices.

Most would also be shocked at how long it takes average handgun calibers to kill men. In this instance we are defending our life, a different moral issues than dropping the hammer on an unoffending deer. Given my druthers I'd rather defend myself with a 30-30 over a 38 against men as well, but the portability issue rears its ugly head. With a handgun for personal defense, our intent is to get the assailant to cease their attack.

A different issue entirely, prompting a different evaluation. A 38 special is not a good idea to use as a primary firearm to pursue deer in any event.

[357mags]

Do the deer a favor, use a Rifle cartridge!

[Blammer]

I can shoot 38's in my 357 mag rifle. :)

[Char-Gar]

A deer is no harder to kill than a MAN. Sure, I would prefer an M1 Garand with Ball M2, but if a .38 Special is what I am issued when the hammer drops, you dance with the girl you brought. While the. 38 Special is not my preferred choice under all conditions, if a man has an accurate revolver and shoots it welll, within reasonable range, it will do the job.

All the rest is mental masturbation.

I don't think anybody would disagree with your point of view. However it is important to note the OP has a choice and he is choosing to hunt deer with an anemic round. It is his choice of a lesser round that is drawing fire. It is not the 38 Special that is the issue, but the judgment of the fellow choosing to use it rather than a more adequate caliber.

Like you, I am a fan of the 38 Special, but laying on my desk next to this keyboard is a loaded 1911 pistol in 45 ACP. I have three such pistols and one is close at hand everywhere I am in this home. I could position 38 Specials around the place just as easily, but I choose to use a more effective caliber. I live very close to the US/Mexico border and the possibility of needed a firearm is higher than in most other parts of the country. High enough for me to choose the most effective weapon and caliber that I have available for the task at hand.

I also have a very good Garand with two clips of M2 ball in a pouch on the butt stock and several bandoleers hanging close by. If I can get to it, that is what I will use. If not the 45s will have to see me through. Either would be a better choice than a 38 Special no matter how much affection I have for the round and the sixguns that fire it.

I would demur with the notion that this discussion is a form of mental masturbation. It is a discussion about the judgment of the OP and very little more.

[35remington]

The other point is.....nobody was "issued" a .38 here as if they had no other choice of firearm, and there's no "hammer dropping" urgency.

It's about good choices versus not so good ones.

[jumbeaux]

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb. I've killed 23 deer with a 22 magnum legal in north carolina. All I hunt with are cast bullets in all my guns. 30-30 8mm mauser 35 whelen, 44 special 45 acp and 30-06. I am not asking for critsism. just if anyone had any experience doing it. (those that can do those that can't try to teach)

Brother if you can hit something in the eye at 50 yards with your Model 14 then you could certainly kill that whitetail...kudos for a great shooter...

rick

[9.3X62AL]

I will not and have not used a 38 Special cartridge to hunt deer. Some elements of the "ultra-light tackle/large game fish" fetish do not translate well to the deer woods. This is an obvious example of same. Just my 2 cents.

[Jeff Michel]

This is getting a bit weird. I've read numerous threads how so and so would use a 32-20 to harvest a deer without a moments hesitation and probably damn the 38 special in the same breath for the same purpose. The state of Ohio will let me shoot a deer with a .40 caliber round ball that is moving a bit faster than a .38 special with the ball weighing in at less than half of 158 grain projectile found in a 38 special. I have taken deer cleanly with a .40 caliber muzzleloader and based what I've seen, I'd rather have the .38 with a big SWC. I am not advocating hunting deer with a .38 special anymore than a 32-20, but if those are my choices.......

[EMC45]

In GA it is .22 centerfire and above. .38 would be legal. I have a 10in. Oct. Contender barrel in .38 Spec. A 170gr. SWC going 850 FPS generates 273 FPE. It would do it all day long. If a heavy cast SWC will sail through a 200lb man why would it not sail through a 125lb dry doe? I prefer rifle though, and accurate clean kills.

[35remington]

A 32 bullet sails through men as well. Penetration may still let the animal live a long time if damage is minimal.

JM, a roundball from a muzzleloader can and does move a lot faster than a 38 special bullet.

Again......it's about making a good choice versus a poor one.

And.....if the 32-20 produces "eat up to the hole" wound channels......guess what? It's a bad choice for deer hunting too. There is no contradiction here.

And please.......for the last time......nobody is forcing the OP to use a 38, nor is anyone else mandating it.

Compared to alternatives it is unquestionably a last tier selection.

Intentionally inflicting avoidable suffering is not and should not be the hunter's objective, yet some here act like it is of no concern if it is more likely to occur compared to a better choice.

It should matter to you more than this. You clearly have much, much better choices.

[starmac]

Not sure what legalities has to do with it. IIRC the way the kansas law is written a 25 acp is legal to take deer, but people are not that stupid I hope.

[Char-Gar]

Jeff......You are assuming those individuals in this thread who question the use of the 38 Special for deer are the same individuals who find no issue with the 32-20 for the same use. I don't believe that assumption to be valid.

[Char-Gar]

Brother if you can hit something in the eye at 50 yards with your Model 14 then you could certainly kill that whitetail...kudos for a great shooter...

rick

I would take the assertion that a fellow can shoot a deer in they eye at 50 yards with a K-38 with a gain of salt. The handgun possess that level of accuracy and a shooter with a solid rest at the range could put a bullet into the X-Ring of a target on demand, but in the field, from a field position at a living animal...nahhh!

[Screwbolts]

Do the deer a favor, use a Rifle cartridge!

38s fit in my 357 rifle also.

[DougGuy]

You know, in a peculiar sort of way, things overall have got to be going pretty good if this thread is all we got to concern ourselves with to this degree, I mean it's good in a way because that means the snit has not hit the fan in any other major disaster for us to concern ourselves over. This is a good thing...

Other than that, it's fair to say this topic is a moot point. Most here myself included would not consider hunting whitetail with a .38 spl. This is another good thing.

If the OP just -has- to take a deer with this revolver, then I vote a head shot, looking straight down on one from a treestand, in single action mode. A distance of about 15-20' at the most. I have taken a LOT of deer in this same scenario so I know how easy it is to do. Sitting in my stand with a rifle across my lap, and they walk right up under me! Go figure..

[Char-Gar]

You know, in a peculiar sort of way, things overall have got to be going pretty good if this thread is all we got to concern ourselves with to this degree, I mean it's good in a way because that means the snit has not hit the fan in any other major disaster for us to concern ourselves over. This is a good thing...

Other than that, it's fair to say this topic is a moot point. Most here myself included would not consider hunting whitetail with a .38 spl. This is another good thing.

If the OP just -has- to take a deer with this revolver, then I vote a head shot, looking straight down on one from a treestand, in single action mode. A distance of about 15-20' at the most. I have taken a LOT of deer in this same scenario so I know how easy it is to do. Sitting in my stand with a rifle across my lap, and they walk right up under me! Go figure..

I find the fact that so many folks responded that the idea advanced by the OP was not a good idea comforting.

[BruceB]

Not sure what legalities has to do with it.

There's often a lot of truth in those "old sayings".

For example:

"Legal" doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

and

"Illegal" doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Some of the utter stupidity perpetrated by lawmakers is simply astonishing in its depth of ignorance and impracticality.

With the knee-jerk reaction that's often provoked in some quarters by the word, "ethical", especially when applied to hunting, I find That the word "moral" fits rather well. Many of these questions do indeed come down to a matter of morality in my alleged mind.

I wonder if that word is easier to digest for some who simply can't tolerate the concept of "ethics"......at least in the hunting fields.

These small cartridges from 100 or more years ago have been left in the dust of history, at least insofar as deer-hunting goes. I mentioned Wood Bison earlier in this thread...an old-timer I knew in the Territories wanted to hunt the great bovines with his .38-55.... 255 grains at around 1300 fps. I managed to dissuade him from that project, and he killed a good bull with a borrowed .375.....same diameter, but WHAT a difference.

"USE ENOUGH GUN!"

[35remington]

Part of the reason that this thread is so ongoing has to do with some poster's persistence, true, but then this needs to be done. Here we're trying to show the sheer undesirability of trying to see how small you can go in cartridge power.........all for what?

So you can see how slowly you can kill something?

The ludicrousness of such action needs some kind of persistence in posting to counteract such mentality and to make it clear what an utterly senseless and morally bankrupt position that is to take along when hunting.

What is the point? To brag? "Hey........I shot a deer with a wimpier cartridge than you! He took quite awhile to die!"

Gee.......you want a medal?

[Char-Gar]

With the knee-jerk reaction that's often provoked in some quarters by the word, "ethical", especially when applied to hunting, I find That the word "moral" fits rather well. Many of these questions do indeed come down to a matter of morality in my alleged mind.

I wonder if that word is easier to digest for some who simply can't tolerate the concept of "ethics"......at least in the hunting fields. "

Bruce..Ethics/morals seem to have falling out of fashion in all area of life. Folks seem to feel it is their "right" to do as they please without any thought as to the consequences of their acts on others, which in this case would be a deer. None of use live in a vacuum and most everything we do has a pour over effect. We are living in a time when self indulgence seems to be the order of the day.

[jumbeaux]

I would take the assertion that a fellow can shoot a deer in they eye at 50 yards with a K-38 with a gain of salt. The handgun possess that level of accuracy and a shooter with a solid rest at the range could put a bullet into the X-Ring of a target on demand, but in the field, from a field position at a living animal...nahhh!

Rev...post was "firmly tongue in cheek"...

rick

[Changeling]

Just try to remember the original question and my response :
It's amazing how many experts here agree that .38 is OK if one just hits the sweet spot (so to speak) ! This is the first time I have ever been ashamed of being a member here! There have been countless "real world" experts that have explained the problems with small caliber projectiles at a multitude of velocities and projectiles. However some of you just don't seem to get it, or care!

The Deer is a very majestic animal that has fed thousands upon thousands of people through out history and hopefully will continue to do so.
It is the back bone of all the people I know and "RESPECT" in regard to hunting, not one who disrespects it in the above examples!

However some of you seem to regard it as some sort of "RAT" that you can kill/eradicate/mutilate at will without consequence. You are pitiful people in my experience!

All of you know or should know what is considered adequate without a doubt on killing a deer humanely. NOT some experiments on "WHAT IF". What the Hell is wrong with you people?
Whoops, There goes my Language again I said HELL, so I guess I will be banned for how I feel and believe!

The OP is in never never land! Evidently can't afford a reasonable firearm caliber, 41/44 .

[357maximum]

Trying to ignore the typists here, but I just cannot find it in me to do so.........Opinions are just like @$$holes, everyone has one.....here's mine.

The 32/20, 25/20 and such were originally "deer rifles". It is my opinion that while the quarry has not changed over time, the skills/mindset of the average hunter definately have. I will keep killing my deer humanely with "inadequate" gear like the 30Badger/357Mag/357Max and such, dead is dead afterall, I have yet to see a deer I could have killed more deader with a bigger gun.......you can be ashamed of me iffin ya choose, but in my opinion some of you need alot more range/woods time and a whole lot less keyboard time apparently. If numbers killed we would hunt with calculators and sliderules. There now I feel better...please feel free to add me to your ignore list iffin ya choose to....I simply do not care.

[35remington]

The 32-20 and 25-20 were originally small game rifles, pressed into service by those who often did afford only one rifle. Contemporary accounts of how they killed deer are underwhelming. Look, for example, how well the low velocity 25-20 factory load did on the Jordan buck, formerly the world's #1 deer. This is a matter of considerable record. Luck was that the deer was not lost......it nearly was.

The killing power, by any objective standard, was not there.

If you want to beat the drum that narrow wound channels and minimal tissue damage are the way to go......let's just say you've had your day with the 32-20 thread. This is the needed counterpoint to that criminally excessive ode to minimalism.

Why criminal? Because in a number of states you'd be thrown in jail for attempting to shoot a deer with those kind of ballistics, including my own. When you flirt with and go well below those kind of minimums......one might reasonably question whether it's a good idea even if it's legal to do so where you live.

I've shot deer with pistol cartridges, the traditional kind. Pee dunkler ballistics don't get it done very well.

[Char-Gar]

Trying to ignore the typists here, but I just cannot find it in me to do so.........Opinions are just like @$$holes, everyone has one.....here's mine.

The 32/20, 25/20 and such were originally "deer rifles".

Both the 25-20 and 32-20 were not designed for nor intended to be "deer rifles". They were intended to hunt small game and to use for varmint/pest control. You do not have your facts correct and therefore the inferences you try and draw from those wrong facts are not valid. If the premise is faulty, so are any inferences draw from the premise.

The 32-20 Winchester was occasionally pressed into service for deer, by the farmer and rancher who could only afford one rifle, but that use was at the far end of it's utility and purpose.

The 25-20 Winchester was a small game and varmint rifle pure and simple and ruled the roost for that use until the 22 Hornet came along.

Fifty plus years ago I killed two Texas Whitetail deer with a Winchester 92 in 25-20. They were close range shots with the bullet behind the ear. It was a matter where I had to press into service what I had. I did not then, nor do I now consider the 25-20 to be a deer rifle. Circumstances often result in us using inferior tools for any job. When we have the choice between the proper tool and an inferior tool, we would be foolish to choose the improper tool. When it comes to dispatching an animal, it becomes more than foolish, it becomes immoral. At least in my opinion.

[JSnover]

Opinions are just like @$$holes, everyone has one.....

The OP did ask for opinions [smilie=1:

[35remington]

He's getting them, in spades. A little balance to the idea of low powered cartridges being suitable is being found at the same time.

This was sorely needed on the hunting forum.

[Char-Gar]

Rev...post was "firmly tongue in cheek"...

rick

I figured as much, but without an emoticon for that feeling, I had to give it some level of credence.

[Screwbolts]

Not to high jack the thread but I have also taken deer with a 22 hornet. Dead is dead. :-)

[dogknott]

I must say this ha s been educational for a newbe like me to handgun hunting. Is what i find intresting, is in the duck/goose world (where i come from) you get bashed by the "Experts" for useing too much gun or load.
I think i may reconsider my use of 357...

[357maximum]

Not to high jack the thread but I have also taken deer with a 22 hornet. Dead is dead. :-)

My F.I.L killed close to 100 whitetails with a 22MAG marlin before it was made illegal....never lost one either, and some of them were shot at distances that would make me not take the shot. He has killed an untold number of deer since then with the 22Hornet, which is legal.....dead is dead you are very correct. Good try, but one cannot pry open minds so closed that daylight cannot enter.

I still wonder why if the 32/20 & 25/20 was not intended as a deer rifle that I have an original tin advertising sign from Remington/Peters that says otherwise......must be my imagination.


At any rate the OP has gotten "opinions" from both sides of the can do/will do/have done as well as the cannot / will not/ have not sides of the fence....it is up to him to make his decision and to live within the boundaries his choices will come with.

[35remington]

For the record......I'm not bashing a 357 revolver of reasonable size used responsibly at modest ranges, nor even a 22 Hornet used at close ranges on an unobstructed ribcage shot where the potential for significant lung tissue damage is present. Maybe I'd like to have more but I can see that good results can be had with such things if ranges are close.

It's power levels significantly below that I have a problem with as clearly inhumane, which are often coupled with medium to small diameter, nonexpanding bullets. Add it all up and you get a whole bunch of underwhelming. Even at close range. My examination of wound channels left by such bullets has been extensive, because I shoot an awful lot of game with such cartridges.

I'm just smart enough not to use them on deer. I'm not sure what other people's excuse is.

The 22 magnum should be illegal. Give your local G and P and slap on the back for that one.

[skeettx]

Hello marllinman80,
You do not list where you live.
FIRST, I would check you local game laws to see if they
have a specific caliber requirement and footpounds of energy
requirement. Might get you in trouble.

Other than that, I would say 25 yards should be the limit for the
energy profile of the 38 Special

Mike

[35remington]

Remington had an ad showing their Model 8 autoloading rifle (either in 25, 30, 32 or my namesake 35 Remington Rimless) in the hands of a guy confronting a huge grizzly bear on a narrow cliffside trail in a famous advertising painting called "The Right of Way."

I suppose that means Remington endorsed these cartridges for grizzly? To suggest they are so endorsed today would cause any thoughtful hunter to laugh out loud. Don't fall into the trap of believing 100 year old advertising copy is a legitimate recommendation of suitability. Even modern advertising often promotes the woefully unsuited product as the thing to have. 100 years ago, absent lawyers, they were even less shy.

[35remington]

This mind has had a lot of daylight let in.....and managed to draw the correct conclusions. I campaign against the use of such cartridges because I know a lot about them, not because I know a little about them. That includes field experience.

A lot of it.

[MOHunter]

The "hunters" here are sure opinionated (not a bad thing at all!)....but, if the man has killed over 20 deer with his .22 mag. (legal in N.Carolina), I'm sure his .38 will do just fine if he chooses the shots like he stated....All the comments from people that haven't read the entire thread are not helping matters...Also, hunters that think that their way is the only right way, don't help matters either!...Diversity in the field of hunting keeps it interesting..The OP asked for opinions, and boy did he get'em!....

[kweidner]

I too have tons of field experience. In my younger days I shot with uber fast .22's of some description. That changed when I kept seeing shooter bucks at distances I knew were beyond the scope of that rifles ability to incapacitate. Started hunting with handguns years ago. .44 mag and .41 mag. Never had one take more than about 20 steps and that was only 2 that weren't DRT. I just recently read an article on terminal ballistics and how bullets kill. I wish I had bookmarked it. It made sense in both kill. One just knocks out the nervous system long enough for the bullet to kill the animal. It is a really good point. I have seen deer I have helped track that were shot with non incapacitating rounds missing entire hearts when dressed and were almost not recovered. Had the nervous system been disabled the animal wouldn't have taken a step. This is why the magnum handguns seem so effective. The big meplats knock them down and keep them there till they die. Less than stellar knock down would still likely kill the animal but is it ethical and what are the chances of not finding it? After reading this article it makes since why in my younger days that .220 swift seemed to hit them like a bolt of lightning. Never had to track one of those either just for the record. True dead is dead. Shut down the nervous system they will be dead right there and not 2 counties over. I am also from GA and could take the OP in the woods legally but common sense and experience tells me no. Even Elmer Keith said the .357 magnum was MARGINAL on deer in his book sixguns and prefered the .45 until his .44 mag. JMHO

[357maximum]

OPINIONATED I BE...no doubt about that. I started my deer hunting "career" with a real stick and string and I have taken 2/3 of my whitetail with a bow of some sort..........Personally I feel that the BIG GUNS are a bit like cheating somewhere in my subconcious I guess. I do not use little guns to "prove" anything...I just am good with certain restrictions and I know that in MY HANDS and with MY BOUNDARIES that alot of things that some think are not a good choice are perfectly useable.....not that I would want every member of the orange army to use them either...but I am comfortable with what I use.......it is what makes me happy. I just get a bit frustrated when "cann nots" get tossed around I guess. Use whatever the heck makes YOU happy as will I. If you wanna kill and process your deer at the shot, by all means go for it. I will do my killing and my processing in seperate operations thank you very much. :smile:

[45 2.1]

I campaign against the use of such cartridges because I know a lot about them, not because I know a little about them. That includes field experience. A lot of it.

When those cartridges were introduced, a lot of the country either grew there own food or shot it themselves.

[catboat]

Would I hunt for whitetail deer with a cast bulleted 38 special from a revolver (6 inch barrel)?

If it was all I had, and if my family was hungry-yes, I would. I would use a WFN bullet int the 170++ grain range, aim for the head /head area, and keep the range WELL under 50 yards, and hopefully under 30 yards.

It's not all I have. And VERY thankfully, my family is not hungry.

There are MANY better choices out there, than a 38 special from a revolver. That's just a fact.

The deer deserves better. A sportsman respects his quarry to harvest it as cleanly as possible. I would feel sick if I shot at, hit, then lost a deer I shot with a lower power cartridge-when I had the choice to use a more appropriate selection.

[kweidner]

awwwwww but processing at the same time is faster :bigsmyl2:

[357maximum]

Longbow
recurve
self bow w/ self knapped chert points
compound bow
50 PRB
50 conical
20 gauge slug
12 gauge slug
12 gauge buckshot
22 Hornet
32/40 (BP ballistics)
30-30
30Badger (32/20 pistol ballistics)
357Mag
357MAXimum (pistol)
41MAG (Marlin rifle)
444Marlin
35 Whelen
35 Remington
30-06
308
7mm-08
270Win
7TCU
Ford Truck
Chevy Truck
Ford Fairmont
Wooden Club
Splitting maul


Above you see a pretty much complete list of what I have killed deer with.....of those listed which one's had a deer that took the longest to die when taken through the lungs or " otherwise properly hit" ?

I'll give you a hint.......It was Jack O' Conners little darling and the one that shoots more than one projectile........can we end this :takinWiz: now?

[RoyEllis]

Longbow
recurve
self bow w/ self knapped chert points
compound bow
50 PRB
50 conical
20 gauge slug
12 gauge slug
12 gauge buckshot
22 Hornet
32/40 (BP ballistics)
30-30
30Badger (32/20 pistol ballistics)
357Mag
357MAXimum (pistol)
41MAG (Marlin rifle)
444Marlin
35 Whelen
35 Remington
30-06
308
7mm-08
270Win
Ford Truck
Chevy Truck
Ford Fairmont
Wooden Club
Splitting maul


Above you see a pretty much complete list of what I have killed deer with.....of those listed which one's had a deer that took the longest to die when taken through the lungs or " otherwise properly hit" ?

I'll give you a hint.......It was Jack O' Conners little darling and the one that shoots more than one projectile........can we end this now?

Mike, you've killed deer with about twice the cart. I have, and I'd have to sub in Isuzu P'up for the fairmont but your exp. is much like mine. I can tell 35 REM that he's not quite correct on his statement of how poor pistol rounds kill. Mind you I'd not choose a 38 on purpose, but it was what I had in hand. One round thru the subjects upper lip, traversed the sinus cavity, severed the medulla oblongata and took a golf ball size skull piece as it exited. 38 spec 148gr wadcutter over 4.6gr bullseye, range...across my living room. Point is, a 38 WILL do the deed, just not the first choice of many. He!!, look at the ballistics of PCP big bore airguns currently being legally used in some states to hunt deer....no appreciable difference.
I'm with Mike, let the whizzing end[smilie=b:

[dk17hmr]

I think a lot of people have taken the hunt out of hunting. If I were to purposefully HUNT deer with a 38 special revolver, there would be a lot of hunting and probably a lot of passed shots I would normal make with a rifle or larger caliber revolver. Marginal shots have no place with light bullets and low velocity, the shot would have to be perfect, calm animal, close range, very little room for error. Hunting is the part of the equation it seems everyone is leaving out in this thread and in general I think.

That said, I stalked and shot a 28" inch wide 2x2 mule deer in his bed last year with my compound bow (375gr arrow at 285fps) from a range of 11 yards...I BLEW the shot and stuck an arrow right in his shoulder blade. My buddy and I tracked that buck, according to me GPS, 7 miles up and down the mountain side through some pretty rough terrain. After 9 hours on the blood trail we called it quits because we could see a storm coming in fast, we didn't make it back to the truck before we got soaked. I went back out the next day for 4 more hours looking for blood, and glassing for a dead deer, or crows circling a dead deer. I was heart broke and threw my tag away after the second day of looking, I am still very disappointed with the results of my 2013 deer season, not because of a terrible hunt but my terrible shot. Two days prior to me screwing up on this deer I punched exactly the same arrow setup with the same bow through an elk at 32 yards, and still haven't found my arrow (I look every time I'm out there), elk is in my freezer.

The fact that I practice with my bows at ranges a lot of people zero their deer rifles in for with groups very close to the same size based on what I see at the local rifle range before hunting season, makes me over confident I guess....how do you blow an 11 yard shot when you can pin a quiver full of arrows into a pie plate at 100 yards. $^it happens just because you can doesn't mean you should and just because on paper it should work doesn't mean it will work in the field, it doesn't mean it wont work either.

Anyways this year I have a faster/more powerful bow, I have been shooting in my winter indoor 3d league (1st in X count 2ns overall for score out of 120 some shooters) and am switching to a 200gr heavier arrow and ditching expandable broadheads......a better tool for the task at hand I guess. We like meat to much in my house to risk going without so I will take any advantage I can.

Your call on the 38 special though, might work. might not, either way its on you.

[starmac]

In my mind there is a big difference in a good choice and perfectly useable. I also have seen no can nots on the post. I don't think anybody here thinks a 38 special will not kill a deer, but it is not and never has been a good choice, no matter whose hands it is in. Like has been mentioned, everybody has an opinion. That is mine if that makes me an idiot, that just might be a good thing.

[M-Tecs]

IAnyways this year I have a faster/more powerful bow, I have been shooting in my winter indoor 3d league (1st in X count 2ns overall for score out of 120 some shooters) and am switching to a 200gr heavier arrow and ditching expandable broadheads......a better tool for the task at hand I guess. .

If you have not picked a broadhead yet take a hard look at Slick Tricks. http://slicktrick.net/ My last 20 or so deer have been with them. I like the 1 1/8" mag or the 1 1/4" GRIZZTRICK 2's

[DougGuy]

Longbow
recurve
self bow w/ self knapped chert points
compound bow
50 PRB
50 conical
20 gauge slug
12 gauge slug
12 gauge buckshot
22 Hornet
32/40 (BP ballistics)
30-30
30Badger (32/20 pistol ballistics)
357Mag
357MAXimum (pistol)
41MAG (Marlin rifle)
444Marlin
35 Whelen
35 Remington
30-06
308
7mm-08
270Win
Ford Truck
Chevy Truck
Ford Fairmont
Wooden Club
Splitting maul


Above you see a pretty much complete list of what I have killed deer with.....of those listed which one's had a deer that took the longest to die when taken through the lungs or " otherwise properly hit" ?

I'll give you a hint.......It was Jack O' Conners little darling and the one that shoots more than one projectile........can we end this now?

Heh how bout bare hands with a ratchet strap.. :bigsmyl2:

[dk17hmr]

If you have not picked a broadhead yet take a hard look at Slick Tricks. http://slicktrick.net/ My last 20 or so deer have been with them. I like the 1 1/8" mag or the 1 1/4" GRIZZTRICK 2's

I have had great results with 100gr Muzzy 3 blade, I only tried out the mechanicals last year because it was a design one of my good friends came up with and they wanted more kill results. It would have been fine on that deer had I of hit 3" lower. Right now I am looking at the RAZORTRICK or a Magnus Stinger/buzzcut, leaning towards the Magnus. There is something to be said for a solid non mechanical broad head when you hit something hard like a shoulder blade. I like cut on contact heads and Magnus has a great warranty, if needed.

[M-Tecs]

I shoot 71.2 pounds with a 31” draw at about 330 FPS. With the 1 1/4" GRIZZTRICK 2's it will pass thru anything on a Whitetail except for the Spine. Never hit the Spine so I don’t know what that would do. The last was a medium sized 4 x 4 was angling towards me (many 95”). I hit the scapula going in. I hit the center of the front leg on the way out. Complete pass thru with a lot of ground penetration.

My two hunting buddies switched from Muzzy’s to Rage two blade five or six years ago. They had penetration issues so I was able to talk them into Slick Tricks two years ago. In the last two years they have killed a 163”, a 141” a 124” and 6 does. The 163” was shot with a 1 1/8” Magnum at 55 pounds with a 27” draw. It was also a pass thru. They won’t be switching form Tricks anytime soon. Best I have done with a Trick is 127”. That was with the 1 1/8” magnum.

[marlinman80]

er. I will post pics when I get there. I am no slouch with a gun,one has taken me all over the world. I joined Team USA in 1994 as a junior olympian in uit 10 meter and 50 meter free pistol. I have a Degree in Firearms Technology from the NRA gunsmithing school in Troy, North Carolina. I've built almost every gun I own Except a few. I have amazing skill in the woods. The 9 point buck I killed last year was at 6' with a 30-30 on the ground. I have physically touched 3 deer in the woods that were in perfect health! I can stalk and remain motionless for hours. I will Let all of you know how my endeavor works out either way. God bless all of y"all. I am sure glad to stirred of the Hornets nest I have on this sight. Also yes the 25-20,32-20, 25-30, 44-40, 38-40 were all marketed by winchester as deer guns I have the ads above my work bench downstairs.

[dk17hmr]

With my current bow I am running 355gr arrows at 338fps, only 70# and 29" draw which is about 1/2" too short for me....I made up some 55gr tips just to see what they would do and at 307gr total weight it broke 360fps....not something I shoot normal just wanted to see what my bow would do. It has the speed to move to at 500-550gr arrow and still be very usable. One of my very good friend (only person beating me in our indoor league right now) has been shooting Magnus for a couple years and had a perfect pass through on a 300" bull elk last year at just under 40 yards. We test our points out to 100 yards just to see what they will do and the Magnus stinger flew as good as the mechanicals and field points.....I'll look into those Tricks a little more....elk is the primary target for me, maybe moose if I draw this year.

[marlinman80]

I have killed deer with everything from a .22lr illegal at 12 years old (found out the hard way) to a .300 ackley magnum. The only ones that have not run were with a 22 magnum in N.C. (head shot and the .300 ackley at 4100fps and a 180 A-frame wan't much left) and the first one with the .22lr.Wait did a mexican heart shot on a 8 pointer at 100 yards 3 years ago with the 7mm-08 he dropped!Broke his spine.The rest run about the same give or take 20 yards from a heart lung shot with anything. 30-06,30-30,348 winchester,7mm-08,25-06,8mm mauser,38-55 marlin-ballard,44magnum,.243 win,308 winchester,and 44 special. If you poke a hole in the heart it will die soon enough just follow the blood trail. If you just happen to have a trained blood trail dog so much the better. The funny thing to me is I am thinking about hunting which is way different than shooting an animal. I could take my old 1903-a4 and go anywhere in Ga and shoot a deer within 1100yards which probably ain't gonna happen around here unless he is in the middle of the highway. Which is illegal and I can't do.I wouldn't take that shot btw I am a hunter! I get close thats my thing. I also think it is funny all the guys that say take a head shot, a deers brain is only about 2.5" around while its heart is about 4-5 in tall and wide,the lungs are 12" long and 5-7 in tall.

[robertbank]

This is a family forum. I have had to edit a number of posts for language. I know you all can express yourselves better than some have here. I don't want to have to come back.

Have a nice week.

Take Care

Bob
ps. We have deer in the Queen Charlottes that are no bigger than a large dog. I guess it depends on what size of deer you are talking about.

[Outpost75]

Back.in the day we shot Sambar stag for camp meat with a suppressed High Standard HD Military, because we didn't want to draw fire, just eat good. Shot placement is everything. If I was reduced to only a .38 revolver, I could make it work with full charge wadcutters to feed myself, but it is not a "sporting" weapon for such use. I have a .30-'06 for that, but there are times when an animal can be legally taken in closer to town where you don't want to " scare the natives" and. 38 Special in a rifle is lots more effective than a .22LR and quieter than a WMR.

[marlinman80]

Robertbank,

I sure hope none of those posts were mine. I tried not to use any bad language towards my felllow posters. Please do let me know.

[357maximum]

Nah...it was mostly my fault. :takinWiz: I typed out what this site has an emoticom for...my bad, I apologize.

I guess I do not take to being called unethical because I can keep my wits about me at the moment of truth and do what needs doing without getting all pulse racing and dumb I guess. I also guess not as many on this site have touched a perfectly fine live deer in the wild or kicked a live one while it slept in it's bed with his foot to see if he could do it...... I overestimated the woodswise quality of some of the membership I guess....also my bad. Deer are not some mythical creature that are kevlar coated or can fly.....they are an animal made of meat just like the rest of us. The plain hard truth would not sell many glossy covered gunrags I spose.

[Char-Gar]

Back.in the day we shot Sambar stag for camp meat with a suppressed High Standard HD Military, because we didn't want to draw fire, just eat good. Shot placement is everything. If I was reduced to only a .38 revolver, I could make it work with full charge wadcutters to feed myself, but it is not a "sporting" weapon for such use. I have a .30-'06 for that, but there are times when an animal can be legally taken in closer to town where you don't want to " scare the natives" and. 38 Special in a rifle is lots more effective than a .22LR and quieter than a WMR.

Back in another day, I spent considerable time deep in the Amazonian rain forest with the tribes. I hunted with the men and all I had was a Colt Huntsman 22 LR. With proper shot placement it took food animals all out of proportion to the size we associate with the lowly round. I could and did feed myself and others with that pistol.

The 38 special will indeed kill deer in the hands of a good shot, being better for that task than the 22LR. But like you it would not be my choice if I could use a more effective round. I have choices now I did not have then.

[Char-Gar]

Nah...it was mostly my fault. :takinWiz: I typed out what this site has an emoticom for...my bad, I apologize.

I guess I do not take to being called unethical because I can keep my wits about me at the moment of truth and do what needs doing without getting all pulse racing and dumb I guess. I also guess not as many on this site have touched a perfectly fine live deer in the wild or kicked a live one while it slept in it's bed with his foot to see if he could do it...... I overestimated the woodswise quality of some of the membership I guess....also my bad. Deer are not some mythical creature that are kevlar coated or can fly.....they are an animal made of meat just like the rest of us. The plain hard truth would not sell many glossy covered gunrags I spose.

Do you hunt deer with a 38 Special handgun? I don't mean "could you", I mean "do you".

[Petrol & Powder]

This thread would have been a lot more fun if it had been titled :

"Ford Fairmont on Whitetail, any experiences out there?"

[Eutectic]

I'll give you a hint.......It was Jack O' Conners little darling...

Hang in there Mike!

Just know out of everything I have ever read on this sight.... The above quote has tickled me the most!!:guntootsmiley:

Eutectic

[35remington]

Let's answer a simple question:

Absent overwhelming need or dire dire circumstance, why, exactly, do those here that have strangely countering opinions object to my quite obvious concern that power can indeed dip too low? Especially when scores of more humane selections are far more warranted?

Is the fact that I am right all that irritating? What is your personal investment in the topic other than a strange interest in promoting needless suffering?

Do you have the right to pursue a course of action no matter the consequence when a life other than your own is involved?

That some if the suggested cartridges are poor killers on deer is so obvious that many states legislate against them. Some of the ballistics quoted here are not just under, but way under those minimums.

Big alarm bells ought to be going off at this point. Good judgement was left behind long ago. If someone wants to get into minutiae about the wounding potential of such cartridges I can accommodate as I said I have a lot of experience with them.

Difference is......I can perceive when I'm pushing things and know to quit well before then.

The active pursuit of trying to discover just how slowly you can kill something is utterly to be avoided IF you paid any attention at all to what your hunting mentors taught you.

If your chosen arm sports similar to rimfire energy levels and eat up to the hole levels of minimal damage, just what the heck are you doing applying this to a deer?

[robertbank]

I get the more power is better argument but dead is dead. The deer either bleed out or you shut their nervous system down. A 38spl through the lungs is going to kill the deer as effectively as any other shot through the lungs. Where does an arrow fit into this discussion. Folks use bows & arrows along with cross bows to kill deer. None of these would be my first choice but they are used effectively.

Personally for here I would use my 38spl/.357mag rifle on deer just as quick as my 30-30.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

Time is the missing element. Not will it kill them.....but how quickly will they die? These cartridges just don't do enough damage to kill deer quickly.

That is why they are illegal.

I've already explained arrows have biig razors on them.

[nanuk]

Gerald Averill claimed to have killed numerous "eatin' size" deer in the 1930s, using a 6" revolver, but we all know that today's deer are much tougher than the Maine woods Depression variety. Takes at least a .357 Max for anything over 30 feet. [smilie=1:

When it comes to the Whitetail deer of today, which ARE much tougher than the deer of my Grampa's... nothing less than a Magnum will do!

if it ain't called a magnum, or some other "Badder than Regular" moniker, it simply ain't "Enough Gun"

[nanuk]

Wasn't the 38spl with a 158gr lead boolit THE standard Police issue for many years on many many Police forces?

[35remington]

Yeah. Many were the complaints about its stopping power.

[jumbeaux]

I could take my old 1903-a4 and go anywhere in Ga and shoot a deer within 1100yards which probably ain't gonna happen around here unless he is in the middle of the highway.

Do you use the WWII vintage scope for that 1100 yards shot ?? :?

rick

[35remington]

Nanuk, your comments are not the least bit relevant.

What we're trying to avoid is the suggestion of the least powerful cartridges as a good idea.....which it is clearly not. Nobody said a super powerful gun was needed nor are we headed that way in the discussion.

Magnumitis would be preferable by far to minimitus in terms of ethics, though.

[djgoings]

I have seen a few whitetails shot with a 357 mag using 180 grain out of a contender rifle barrel. Both were clean kills around 75 yards. I consider this about the minimum handgun cartridge. Would much prefer the 44 mag cartridge on whitetails.

[robertbank]

Time is the missing element. Not will it kill them.....but how quickly will they die? These cartridges just don't do enough damage to kill deer quickly.

That is why they are illegal.

I've already explained arrows have biig razors on them.

They maybe illegal where you are but they aren't everywhere. If a 30-30 lead bullet weighing 170 gr Vel 1700fps will kill a deer why won`t a 38spl out of a rifle at 1300 fps do the job just as quick ir out of a revolver at 930 fps.

A friend of mine down in Texas used a 9MM out of a Hi Power to shoot his deer. They fell just as dead, just as quick.

Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

Wasn't the 38spl with a 158gr lead boolit THE standard Police issue for many years on many many Police forces?

Yes it was. The Army tried such a bullet briefly in the 38 Long Colt, but ran away from it when it failed miserably to stop armed opponents in the Philippine Insurrection. The military went back to the 45 even though the 38 Special with its extra velocity boost came along. There were some 38 Specials used primarily by the fly guys.

For most of the 20th. Century the 158 lead RN in either a Colt or Smith and Wesson DA revolver was the standard police revolver in the US, but it had a very bad reputation as a man/fight stopper. A lead SWC HP was introduced which helped a bunch. This is often referred to as the "FBI" or "Detroit" load. The RCMP used a hot 38 Special SWC at 1,000 fps in their 5" Model 10 Smiths for a time.

All this changed when Lee Jurris and his company Super-Vel brought out a reliable expanding JHP at higher speeds for a number of auto-pistols and revolvers. This was a game changer for law enforcement and nothing has been the same every since, with every ammo maker under the sun trying to get their market share.

Ed Harris as well as Outpost75 are advocates of the full wadcutter at full charge velocities at in the 38 Special for defense use as well as hunting. I am convinced these two knowledgably gents have it right and this is the way to go with the 38 Special when shooting at living flesh.

This thread has deteriorated in the past few days quite a bit. My position has not changed on the issue. Yes, you can kill deer with a 38 Special and how effectively depends on the range and skill of the shooter plus the type and shape of the bullet. As an expedient and compromise it can be done. But at the risk of being redundant, the question still remains, should it be done when more effective calibers are available? My response is no, to do that is unethical from point of view of a Sportsman. The point of view of meat hunter will see it differently. I am content to leave it at that.

I have been around firearms and people for a long time now and I have noticed that the numbers of people who claim they can shoot the eyelashes off a gnat at 100 yards is far, far greater than even those who can indeed hit a beer can at the same distance. Then there is always the fellow who can take his old army rifle and kill any deer with a single shot at 1,100 yards. Lots of big talk out there in this world. I take into account when digesting threads such as this.

BTW..Lee Jurris is still shooting and living the small town life in New Mexico. He is a great guy with a head full of wisdom and experience in all things shooting.

[robertbank]

Well put Charles, pretty much sums it up.

Take Care

Bob

[Bullshop Junior]

Is want to stalk in to about 30 yards since I'm not the best shot , but is shoot a deer with a 38. Maybe not a big mile buck, but these little texas deer...pfffft no problem.

[Char-Gar]

They maybe illegal where you are but they aren't everywhere. If a 30-30 lead bullet weighing 170 gr Vel 1700fps will kill a deer why won`t a 38spl out of a rifle at 1300 fps do the job just as quick ir out of a revolver at 930 fps.

A friend of mine down in Texas used a 9MM out of a Hi Power to shoot his deer. They fell just as dead, just as quick.

Take Care

Bob

I have a friend who had to punch out of a B-52 over Greenland and had his chute fail. He survived the fall, but lost both feet to frostbite before they found him. Just because somebody has done something is not a good reason for the rest of us to do it.

Again, just because somebody has killed deer with a 38 Special does not make it a good idea for the rest of us. The difference between a rifle and a handgun makes very big difference in terminal performance of the 38/357 rounds. A good 357 Mag out of a rifle is an entirely different ball game and not the same discussion at all. I would consider such a rifle and load on par with a 30-30 for deer hunting. Even a 38 Special out of a rifle is a different thing as well.

If the questions was "Should I shoot deer with a 38 Special rifle and a good load at short range?", my answer would be sure, go ahead. But that is not the question posed by the OP.

[robertbank]

Perhaps but the Columbia Black tail deer we have around here are hardly bigger than a Great Dane dog. I know folks here who have used .22lr rilfes at close range on them. I suspect the deer down in Texas aren`t much bigger. The season on the Charlotte`s runs from July thru to Dec. I believe last year the possession limit was six. They breed like rats and are all over the islands.

Handgun hunting isn`t allowed here in BC. The factor determining what can be used is the firearm not the caliber up here.

Bob

Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

Bullshop Jr.

I see you lit in Gonzales. That is one of the best small towns in Texas. You did well!!!

[Char-Gar]

Perhaps but the Columbia Black tail deer we have around here are hardly bigger than a Great Dane dog. I know folks here who have used .22lr rilfes at close range on them. I suspect the deer down in Texas aren`t much bigger. The season on the Charlotte`s runs from July thru to Dec. I believe last year the possession limit was six. They breed like rats and are all over the islands.

Handgun hunting isn`t allowed here in BC. The factor determining what can be used is the firearm not the caliber up here.

Bob

Take Care

Bob

The Whitetail deer in Texas are on the smallish side, although they get larger in the mountainous area of West Texas, then they have Mule Deer out there as well and they are larger yet.

Bag limits are set on a year to year and country to county basis by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, depending on all of the factors that control the deer population. Season length also varies region to region.

In Texas the only firearms restrictions is that the round used must be centerfire. No rimfire of any kind can be used to take deer. It matters not whether it is a rifle or a handgun. So the 38 Special (rifle or handgun) would be legal to take deer in Texas. But there are lots of things a person can do that are legal that fail the wisdom test.

[BruceB]

Chargar, thank you.

After this long and contentious thread, you have AGAIN distilled the point-of-view of those who think animals are much more than mere TARGETS for our pleasure, convenience.....or experiments.

I won't lay out personal experience the way some have, but I will say that my Remington '06 ALONE is well into triple digits for big-game animals.....bigger than deer. My position is firmly based on personal history. Before I was a teenager, my mentors had firmly implanted the attitudes I hold to this day.

My Mother's large family , living and actively hunting in the thriving deer herds of Upper Michigan, knew their deer and their rifles. My Grandfather used a Remington .30-06 for decades, and his four war-veteran sons used either the '06, or 8mm Mausers (which their gunsmith Dad sporterized for them). There were no troubles with ineffective firearms in that family.

[Bullshop Junior]

30/06 is way over gun for deer...too much meat loss. I would suspect a deer shot through the heart with a 38 would run about 50 foot further then one shot on the same place with a 44 special. No one questions that one. These are deer. Not rhinos. We don't need big ultra mag behemoth mashers. Like I said. Within 30 yards I would take a shot with a 38 with out a second question with the proper type boolit.

[9.3X62AL]

What BruceB said. Char-Gar's distillation is a fine one.

BSJ, I suspect strongly that you can do so effectively. For my own part, I ask myself whether I SHOULD do so--having other better handguns in the safe for the application. It seems like a waste of money already spent to haul out the Colt OMT x 6" when I have perfectly good 44 Magnum and 45 Colt revolvers on deck--not to mention 30-30 and 38-55 carbines and bolters from 243 Win to 9.3 x 62 Mauser. If a man's only tool is a hammer, every problem soon starts looking like a nail. I assembled the wide range of war toys I have to perform a wide range of tasks--it would be a shame to forfeit that hard-earned potential. I return to my previous point that the prevalent fetish of the sportfishing community for uber-light tackle stuntwork on gamefish does not translate well to the game fields. Sola mi dos centavos, amigos.

A little cabin fever may be setting in, methinks.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce... I did not come from a family of hunters, so at an early age I fell into with a bunch of older shooters and hunters who took me under their collective wing. They instilled in me ethics, values and sportsmanship. I did as they demanded, as I wanted their respect and friendship. Later as I grew up, I came to realize I could take life, but not create it. That one fact, is enough for me to think long and hard about when and how I can and should take life. The taking of life in any form should be a decision we make that reflects our values and morals and not just some just a knee jerk reaction given without any thought.

I am not against hunting by any means, but it a much more serious and weighty matter than many folks seen to think it is. All of my life is lived according to a set of values and morals. Some I inherited and some I worked through on my own.

[Char-Gar]

30/06 is way over gun for deer...too much meat loss. I would suspect a deer shot through the heart with a 38 would run about 50 foot further then one shot on the same place with a 44 special. No one questions that one. These are deer. Not rhinos. We don't need big ultra mag behemoth mashers. Like I said. Within 30 yards I would take a shot with a 38 with out a second question with the proper type boolit.

You are in Texas now son. There is no such thing as too much gun here. We thrive on big, bold and excess in these parts. I shot jackrabbits with a 300 Weatherby for years. :-)

[Bullshop Junior]

What BruceB said. Char-Gar's distillation is a fine one.

BSJ, I suspect strongly that you can do so effectively. For my own part, I ask myself whether I SHOULD do so--having other better handguns in the safe for the application. It seems like a waste of money already spent to haul out the Colt OMT x 6" when I have perfectly good 44 Magnum and 45 Colt revolvers on deck--not to mention 30-30 and 38-55 carbines and bolters from 243 Win to 9.3 x 62 Mauser. If a man's only tool is a hammer, every problem soon starts looking like a nail. I assembled the wide range of war toys I have to perform a wide range of tasks--it would be a shame to forfeit that hard-earned potential. I return to my previous point that the prevalent fetish of the sportfishing community for uber-light tackle stuntwork on gamefish does not translate well to the game fields. Sola mi dos centavos, amigos.

A little cabin fever may be setting in, methinks.

I can totaly agree with this. But. If it was deer season. And I had a 38 in the truck. And needed the meat. And saw a deer within a range that I felt comfortable, I would take the shot.

Range and how you feel is a big deal too. When I'm hunting with my 453 carbine i almost never take shots past 75 yards. Is the gun capable of it? Sure. But I'm not comfortable doing it with the iron sights.

[BruceB]

Nanuk, your comments are not the least bit relevant.

What we're trying to avoid is the suggestion of the least powerful cartridges as a good idea.....which it is clearly not. Nobody said a super powerful gun was needed nor are we headed that way in the discussion.

Magnumitis would be preferable by far to minimitus in terms of ethics, though.

I do believe Nanuk was being sarcastic in his "magnum" comments.

I do agree, however, that "minimitis" (GREAT terminology) is the bigger evil.

[nanuk]

I do believe Nanuk was being sarcastic in his "magnum" comments.

I do agree, however, that "minimitis" (GREAT terminology) is the bigger evil.


Minimitus.... Love it!

BruceB, you noticed my tongue was firmly planted inside my cheek...

What I notice is a trend to overgun, for the sole purpose ( I believe ) of shooting beyond one's abilities, and expecting the gun to make up for it.

I occasionally peruse a forum called "long range hunting" where the banter often goes to 800 yds for elk and deer. There too, I often see the discussion about the effectiveness of certain "magnums" et al... but one thing no one seems to notice is wind drift, or animals taking a step or two after trigger pull.

in the last several years, I haven't shot at anything much past 100yds or so. and if they are not standing still, I don't shoot either.

I don't have any handguns anymore, and never hunted with one, but I think many of us miss the point of momentum, and comparisons.

I always wonder, when I read a post on another thread about longer shots, where the velocity, and energy are most certainly down, that have taken game effectively, but that same boolit, at the same impact speed at closer range from a handgun some how is doomed to failure....

[marlinman80]

Jumbeaux,

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation. The old weaver 330 is in the safe cosmolined.

[357maximum]

Do you hunt deer with a 38 Special handgun? I don't mean "could you", I mean "do you".

NO I have not hunted deer with a 38special handgun, all my 38's are either snubbies or rifle/carbines...........BUT.......that 30Badger was not making the 38 look small,,,,, and when you launch a 357Mag/180 @1300-1400fps into a deer 130 yards away....how fast is the boolit going when it hits home? That deer died just as fast as any clean punched lungshot......If I had a nice 38 target revolver I would use it in heartbeat....with the mindset of a bowhunter and I would bring home the venison...no doubt about it....now I really want one for some reason...thanks...another itch to scratch. :lol:


What alot of people fail to realize is that some people enjoy getting close and are willing to accept the limitations that come with that choice when the occassionally get the urge to do just that. I get bored easy also, varying the calibers and taking a small gun to more simulate a bowhunt a bit more is fun for me and when I do it I do it ethically despite what a few here seem to suggest. I sometimes carry a bow during firearm season...is that unethical too.....I mean by law I could carry a magnum inline or a mighty 8gauge slug, or I could spray willy nilly with buckshot like most the folks do round here......Like I said...I enjoy a varied challenge from time to time and if you think that makes me "disrespectful" of the quarry you could not be more wrong....and I will also not apologize for the way I choose to kill my meat....if that bothers you so be it, but I am legal in what I do where I do it. I am good at killing deer and I enjoy it, but occassionally one has to vary things a bit and put some challenge into the fray. My sucker "spear" only has one tine on it...I suppose that is unethical also in the mind of 35Rem.


Do what ya'all want and so will I.....peace out,,,,tired of getting chastized for making fun out of something that is sposed to be...,,,,,,,,,ummmm..........fun....how dare I right?

[Jevyod]

I tend to agree with the idea of knowing your weapon, and your ability. I really enjoy shooting relatively long range in archery, and have gotten pretty good with my bow. I set my maximum range for deer at 75 yards. I know some people think I am an idiot, and the normal blathering about it being un-ethical etc. That's fine, I know my bow and am confident in my abilities with it. I did quite a lot of practice at 80+ yards and know what I can do. Now I am not at all saying somebody else should do that, neither do I encourage others to do it. But I have put in the time and homework to know what I can do. I tend to feel the same way about using a 38. If you have done a lot of shooting, and know your gun, and trajectory, I see nothing un-ethical about using it. That's my $.02:bigsmyl2:

[marlinman80]

357 maximum,
This whole idea started when I inherited that old target pistol from my high school shooting coach this year. He died last year and we had been friends for 18 years. When I was 17 he let me ream the cylinders out and recut the throat angle. Then he taught me how to do an action job the right way on a k-frame. Lot of memories in this old gun. I just want to make some more with it. When I posted this question I had forgotten that you can't kill anything anymore without at least 2300ft-lb f of knock down power. Funny that 34g winchester supreme only had about 300 ft-lbf and none of those deer ever took a step.

[dk17hmr]

Jumbeaux,

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation. The old weaver 330 is in the safe cosmolined.

That's backwards...to get the most + clicks you need to raise the rear of the scope.

[marlinman80]

dk17hmr,

Hahaha roflmbo thats funny let me know how that works for you!! If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount. Some people get a real kick shooting 308win and 06's well beyond there useful range.

[Bullshop Junior]

dk17hmr,

Hahaha roflmbo thats funny let me know how that works for you!! If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

Scope bases are like sights. If you want to move the POI up, you shim the rear one. If you want to move it down, shim the front one. Shimming the rear points the barrel higher, shimming the front lowers it. Doug is correct.

[dk17hmr]

News to me ...I guess the 50moa base I have on my extreme distance rifle was cut backwards.

[M-Tecs]

dk17hmr,

Hahaha roflmbo thats funny let me know how that works for you!! If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

What’s it going to take before everyone realizes that that marlinman80 has been yanking our chain from the beginning?

[dk17hmr]

Smelling a little trollish to you also......

[jumbeaux]

dk17hmr,

Hahaha roflmbo thats funny let me know how that works for you!! If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

Raising the rear raises the bore centerline which equates to more adjustment at longer ranges...I believe you stated that you were on the US Shooting Team ? Maybe that 1100 yard shot with the 1903A4 or that eyeball shot at 50 yards were....

rick

[Cmm_3940]

At 176 posts I'd say it was a pretty successful troll.

[M-Tecs]

At 176 posts I'd say it was a pretty successful troll.

marlinman80

Boolit Bub
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Join Date: Oct 2012Posts: 25

[M-Tecs]

Best of marlinman80

If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation.

head shot and the .300 ackley at 4100fps and a 180 A-frame wan't much left

I could take my old 1903-a4 and go anywhere in Ga and shoot a deer within 1100yards

I am no slouch with a gun,one has taken me all over the world. I joined Team USA in 1994 as a junior olympian in uit 10 meter and 50 meter free pistol.

I have a Degree in Firearms Technology from the NRA gunsmithing school in Troy, North Carolina.
I've built almost every gun I own Except a few.

I have amazing skill in the woods. The 9 point buck I killed last year was at 6' with a 30-30 on the ground.

I have physically touched 3 deer in the woods that were in perfect health!

The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy. The 38 special is one of the most accurate pistol cartridges ever desinged. A good one should group at 2" at 100 yards (at least)

How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb

[35remington]

357, don't be surprised if I show up in any forthcoming "how great my 1200 fps 32-20 bullet is as a deer killer" threads. There are times I hold my tongue.....but times to speak up as well.

When wound volume is a tiny fraction of the animal's lung size, the wound doesn't add up to much impairment. When the animal's small, yeah, but when they're 20 times that size small wound volume doesn't work so well.

My own journey into minimus, for me, came cautiously. Heeding Nebraska's limit meant I had my choice in how to produce the damage I desired in my own 625-3 Auto Rim revolver. 230 at 950 fps or so.....or something smaller considerably faster? A little over the limit or more so?

I elected for "more so." I have never been terribly impressed by the effects of a 950 f/s "expanding" bullet on soft tissue like lungs in terms of cutting a wound channel, and for deer hunting and handguns that's the precise problem when a ribcage shot is attempted.....lung tissue wound channel. Such handgun bullet speeds really don't produce a wound channel that exceeds, in terms of diameter, the size of the bullet, if even that much, as expansion on airy lung tissue is diffident with many bullets. The problem isn't penetrating the rib cage, as that's not that hard to do.

Extensive fiddling around revealed that my old style Hornady 185 JHP's, which I had in quantity, could be driven over 1250 fps with loads that were still well below top end of the Speer #8, the Holy Bible of Excessive Handloading. Seating the bullet out a bit helped take it easier on the revolver, pressurewise, and accuracy was extremely good. Wet phone books showed penetration of only 5 1/2 to 6 inches and severe expansion of the bullet, but given my plan of unobstructed ribcage shots that didn't seem to be a problem. Turned out it wasn't.

Plan was to shoot one of the does that wander close alongside the stand, but the first victim was a buck, shot at a whopping 15 yards, downward double lung. Hit was through a rib going in and out from a reasonably steep downward angle, and I didn't know for sure I connected.....the buck gave a little hop at the shot and surprisingly kept walking slowly. When he reached the corn rows about 20 yards away I could see a red stain at the bottom of his chest. He turned left and started walking down the row's field edge.

He kept walking, slowly, until he was out of sight. Which was maybe an additional 25 yards or a bit better. I sat in the tree as long as I dared, then slid down the tree like it was pretty much nothing. Adrenaline will do that to you.

Just as I turned the corner and looked down the cornrow, I could see him lurch forward and pile up. Total elapsed time from the shot? A minute to a minute and a half, by my estimate. A minute or more. Think about that time for a second. I'll get back to it.

Autopsy results were and always are interesting. Handgun (or nearly any) projectiles at such speeds almost totally lack the extreme pulping of the organ that is found with, say, a 270 at woods ranges. The hole through the lungs is and was such that I really couldn't come close to admitting two fingers without touching the sides.........and the whole organ looked remarkably intact.

Looking at the level of damage caused, and the fact that it took the deer quite awhile to fall over drove home that fact that while I brought the deer to bag, going a whole lot lower really wasn't advisable. Fragmentation really isn't an issue with handgun bullets, and in the number of deer I've subsequently taken with that same revolver the results in terms of effect are distinctly different and readily distinguishable from what I'll term "splashier" ballistics. As in......not as quick killing. Some of the reason the deer probably took longer to die was his unhurried reaction after the shot..........but still.......one minute plus was a bit longish, and subsequent deer were tried with not a little trepidation. But it worked for the guys using 357's, so why not for me if I had a bit more power?

Subsequent deer have all run off at the shot and most have fallen a bit out of sight, so I don't know time to expiration, but based on recovery distances I've gone as far as I'll tolerate in terms of low end killing effect. I do not want the slightest bit less.

Less than this amount of damage I've described? REALLY undesirable.....which is what we're talking about when the 38 load contemplated is mentioned. I've got way more bullet energy, expansion, diameter........... every category of wound ballistics belongs to my 625-3, vastly and overwhelmingly, over the 38. I'm running 10mm energies here. And yet even it was less than awe inspiring, and even it on noticeable occasion serves notice I don't hold a 25-35 in my hands or even a hot loaded 32-20.

This is the very, very bottom end for me. I can't imagine condoning a cartridge that doesn't even generate half the energy or wounding effect this thing has.

And let's draw that final distinction......splashier ballistics versus "eat up to the hole." Eat up to the hole is absolutely to be avoided with small and medium calibers for deer hunting use. If your gun leaves the squirrels and bunnies intact......leave it home deer hunting.

If.......If I can jack up velocities to the range of 1700 f/s or better at the muzzle with the bullet of interest and ranges are woods close, soft tissue damage like lung tissue most resoundingly responds with much bigger holes. Pedestrian velocities in the 1200-1300 fps range? Not even close. Pistol speeds of 900 fps? Not even on the same planet. Here we are with the 38.

The whole point when deer hunting is to make holes in the lungs. It's the biggest target and most likely to be hit. Small and medium sized slow projectiles make terribly small holes in the lungs.

The high speed 32-20? Amply capable of producing the "splashier" wounding effects I observe on lung tissue at woods ranges. Had such things been mentioned I wouldn't have had a whisper of protest.

What doesn't hold the ring of truth is when someone attempts the same stunt at vastly lesser speeds, then tries to snow me that things were just great with either their smallish bullet at velocities that would not impress a 22 long rifle, or a medium sized handgun bullet that does not even begin to flirt with the sound barrier.

I'm a very, very avid small game and "varmint" (coyote raccoon and what not) hunter and shoot a fair number of critters from 2 lbs. to less than deer size. When it comes to deer size game, "better killing power than a .22" isn't killing power enough, and "eat up to the hole" gets left at home for darn good reason. If the chosen load is considered to be starting to get a bit rough on coyote hides......now we're getting in the ballpark for an absolute minimum.

[35remington]

Yep, a very, very trollish post, as several guys have posted to me via PM.

But I had my own agenda to counterpoint some other " this light load is a good cartridge for deer threads" so I don't feel all that victimized.

I've had my say.

[redneckdan]

Well I might as well add my two cents to this gong show.

In college I aquired a combat masterpiece at a very nice price. I carried that thing everywhere. Woods load out was one 150gr Keith over a max load of 2400 followed by five normal 38 wad cutters. Figured for personal defense my best shot would be the first one, the rest were for small game. Grouse would usually sit still long enough to cycle the second round under the hammer then pop 'em. Any way...


I was hiking back to my dirt bike during deer season after scouting some fur territory. I came right from campus and had stashed the 38 in my saddle bags, rifle was not an option that trip. I stumbled across a spike horn, must have been the dumbest deer in the whole county. I stood still and he came with about seven yards. I waited until he turned his head to check his back trail then let him have it right behind the left ear. He dropped like a sack of taters. It was a lot of work getting his butt out of that swamp but at that time I really couldn't afford to pass up such an opportunity.

Looked a little odd riding into town with deer quarters stacked on the back of a KLR.

[Char-Gar]

If this is a troll post, he played the board members for fools. I hope this isn't true as we don't need that kind of stuff on this boards and I would hope the Mods would take note.

[jumbeaux]

Well if it turns out to be a troll (which it sure looks like) then I certainly took the bait. My only experience with a handgun kill of a whitetail was using a 45 Colt SAA 250 grain cast flat nose and IIRC 9 grains of Unique. Hit him square thru the lungs at about 25 yards and had to put another round into him (heart) before he died. He was a NE Texas buck that field dressed about 125#...

rick

[35remington]

Quite frankly at this point I'd rather hear your hunting stories anyway. You've heard mine.

[marlinman80]

Well time for me to eat a little crow! I was wrong about shimming the scope base. You do have to shim the rear base higher to get max elevation. I pulled my old 1903-a4 out of the gun cabinet and looked at it. the rear of the receiver is about 3/8" higher than the front.I had to shim up the front base to get it on paper with the knob bottomed out. I am not a troll fellas. I just don't use a scope that much only own 3 anyhow. My apology to all I called out on that remark. Especialy dk17hmr

[TXGunNut]

Quite frankly at this point I'd rather hear your hunting stories anyway. You've heard mine.

One early hunting trip I was in a low tree stand. First morning, I had my trusty 30-06 across my lap, a 2" S&W Model 60 in my pocket. (60 was my off-duty/everywhere gun) A fat button buck wandered by and took an interest in the toe of my right boot. His nose was less than an inch from my boot, I damn near hurt myself trying not to laugh. 60 was loaded with 110 gr Silvertips but putting one thru the top of his head from less than 36" away would have been quite doable.
Yes, I could have. Maybe should have. Just didn't feel right. I don't remember if I killed a deer that trip but I'll never forget that silly little button buck.
And yes, I've been smelling a troll since early on but I feel this thread was a good experience for the lurkers and newbies. Discussing ethics is seldom a waste of bandwidth.

[kenyerian]

Well this has been an interesting thread so I might as well add my two cents worth. A long long time ago a friend of mine (passed on back in the 90's) was fishing on a lake when he spotted a really nice buck swiming to the other side. Being some what of an outlaw he decided to harvest it and did so successfully with a croquet mallet he kept in his boat to dispatch pike.( It was an epic struggle that almost sunk his boat and involved several blows and a fillet knife.) Now in no way do I recomend hunting deer with a croquet mallet but it can be done. Most people shouldn't hunt with a 38 either although it can be effective at close range.

[M-Tecs]

One of the gentlemen I work with is a non-hunter but he like venison. One day he is driving home and the car in front of him hits a 3x3 buck. He stops to help. Drive is ok and she leaves. He is drive a pickup truck and decides he is going to take the deer. When he goes to pick the deer up it is still very alive. Only thing he has is a bumper in the truck box. He used said bumper to finish the deer. He loads it into the back of the truck. When he gets home he calls the Highway Patrol to get a road kill tag and the nice lady on the other end says no problem but she needs some details. He tells her the location. After a very long pause she asks if he was the “gentlemen” with the bumper that was beating a deer to death on the side of the Highway. She stated they had seven calls about a crazed man beating a deer to death on the road side. They did give him a road kill (possession) tag.

[35remington]

kenyerian, I liked that one as the tale of a slightly off kilter friend. M-Tec.....too funny.

One place a .38 has served well has been on coup de grace shots to the brain for deer that are down but not out with my inexpensive Rossi snubbie doing the duties. All the penetration needed to reach spine or brain with certainty. This has happened on a few road injured deer and a couple times on a hunt for me. Cast wadcutters work just fine loaded to full power.

[M-Tecs]

Well time for me to eat a little crow! I was wrong about shimming the scope base. You do have to shim the rear base higher to get max elevation. I pulled my old 1903-a4 out of the gun cabinet and looked at it. the rear of the receiver is about 3/8" higher than the front.I had to shim up the front base to get it on paper with the knob bottomed out. I am not a troll fellas. I just don't use a scope that much only own 3 anyhow. My apology to all I called out on that remark. Especialy dk17hmr

Really?????????

Best of marlinman80
If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation.

head shot and the .300 ackley at 4100fps and a 180 A-frame wan't much left

I could take my old 1903-a4 and go anywhere in Ga and shoot a deer within 1100yards

I am no slouch with a gun,one has taken me all over the world. I joined Team USA in 1994 as a junior olympian in uit 10 meter and 50 meter free pistol.

I have a Degree in Firearms Technology from the NRA gunsmithing school in Troy, North Carolina.
I've built almost every gun I own Except a few.

I have amazing skill in the woods. The 9 point buck I killed last year was at 6' with a 30-30 on the ground.

I have physically touched 3 deer in the woods that were in perfect health!

The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy. The 38 special is one of the most accurate pistol cartridges ever desinged. A good one should group at 2" at 100 yards (at least)

How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb

[Bullshop Junior]

One of the gentlemen I work with is a non-hunter but he like venison. One day he is driving home and the car in front of him hits a 3x3 buck. He stops to help. Drive is ok and she leaves. He is drive a pickup truck and decides he is going to take the deer. When he goes to pick the deer up it is still very alive. Only thing he has is a bumper in the truck box. He used said bumper to finish the deer. He loads it into the back of the truck. When he gets home he calls the Highway Patrol to get a road kill tag and the nice lady on the other end says no problem but she need some detail. He tells her the location. After a very long pause she asks if he was the “gentlemen” with the bumper that was beating a deer to death on the side of the Highway. She stated they had seven calls about a crazed man beating a deer to death on the road side. They did give him a road kill (possession) tag.

That story made me laugh and I had to share it with Amanda.

[BruceB]

One fine day back in the '60s. I was carrying a Super Blackhawk while working a wilderness exploration project in the NWT.

I jumped a nice bull moose bedded-down at very close range, maybe ten yards, and tracked him with the cocked revolver until he disappeared at about fifty yards. I could have shot him very easily, but didn't.

Why? Because I KNEW he was a resident, and I'd be around the area for a few weeks yet. And, because i KNEW I had a more-effective tool at camp.... a .303 rifle. And, because I KNEW I was more effective myself with the rifle than I was with the revolver. I killed that very same bull a few days later..... with the rifle.

The ammunition was not in question. It was factory-loaded 240-grain jacketed softpoints by CIL, which I had already used to kill a couple black bears in camp, with complete penetration.


It was a simple case of knowing my options. Even fifty years later and looking back, I am very comfortable with that decision.

Incidentally, I agree that even if this thread WAS trolling, which MarlinMan says it isn't, it did indeed generate very interesting comments from many quarters.

[357maximum]

One of these Novembers I am going to dedicate a thread in the hunting with cast area titled....A cast K38 kill for 35Remington, just need to find the right tool/money first. :mrgreen:

I have ever only administered but one coup de grace shot from my own 1st doings not so right...real early on in MY kodiak/zwickey era, darn deer had an arrow driven the wrong direction UP through the spine missing the lungs entirely, he just laid there spinning and I had to run up the hill and give him another arrow.......hey I am used to shooting down into them...not up into them...it happens I guess....... this thread has clarified one thing for me.........it is now very obvious to me now that Michigan/Ohio/Indiana deer are not as tough as them there Nebraskan deers :lol: Must be the deer round here have not been totally Monsanto'ed yet. :lol:

[goofyoldfart]

Best deer hunt that I will never forget was when I had just rreturned from Viet-Nam. I had stalked a BIG doe and then lost it. climbed up a tree and was looking for it (this was around 10:30am)and saw it in the middle of a large winter wheat field in the hunting preserve. It was bedded down with about 4 other deer. Climbed out of the tree and proceeded to stalk that doe took about 2 1/2 hours to cross into the wheat field and up to the doe. It was primative weapon season and I was toting a CVA .45 cal Kentucky long rifle in cap and ball. the hardest part of the stalk was due to the other animals. some how I managed to get into about 3 ft. of the doe ( the distance of holding the percussion lock to the end of the muzzle/ramrod?). Instead of shooting the doe, I had a momentary lapse of sanity and decieded that I would GOOSE her. That's what I did. I was not aware of a few things, 1) I didn't know that deer had the ability to hover in air with a totally stupid "where in the Lords good name did you materialize from?" she had cr##ped all over my front site and the rifle was a $h**ty mess. 2) Marty Roesenbaum(sp?), the GAME WARDEN had been watching for over an hour. I was laughing like a hyena while backing up from the doe, while she just looked at me for what seemed like many minutes. Next thing she took off with all the others. Marty had been blowing his whistle to get my attention, but I wasn't taking my eyes off that deer until I knew that she was gone, they have very sharp hooves--not good to be hit with. Marty and I met in the middle of the field and he wanted to know if I had a license, was the rifle loaded, did it have a cap on it and what was the reason I didn't shoot that dam doe. I had to show license and fired the rifle in to a ditch and explained that I had changed my mind and just wanted to goose her. I knew Marty for 15 years before he moved to KY and any time he saw me he always called me that crazy dam fool deer hunter. we became good friends. I had spent 4 tours in Nam and stalked many humans with deadly results to them and I just felt I wanted to see if I could do it to an animal--that doe. for some reason I just didn't want to kill her after counting coup. Got my buck 3 days later. God Bless to all and to theirs.

Goofy aka Godfrey:D



ETA. This is not a Troll Lie. Back then 40+ years ago I could do this stuff. Now at almost 70 I am having trouble just walking. But this was the VERY BEST DEER HUNT that I have EVER had. No meat---just fantastice memories and I still feel glad that I didn't shoot. to me that would have been wrong on that day. God Bless.

[300savage]

^great story thanks.
technically i have never killed a deer , or two with a 38 special.
but i have killed two with downloaded 357mag loads that were only traveling at warm 38 velocities.
i could not stand shooting full blown 357 loads, still cant, i absolutely detest the dam things in fact in the field.
i digress.. sorry.
where was i? oh yes a silly question of something about shooting deer with a 38..
well heck yes it will work.
not as good as many others things but they really are not that ineffective, nor are deer that hard to kill.
first one i took with a solid hard cast SWC through the lungs and almost lost that one.
and it queered me on hardcast semi wadcutters for a long time.
i dont know how long that deer would have lived, but in all honesty i think he might have recovered completely and gotten over it.
i was lucky there were very few other fresh deer tracks in the area so i could track him fairly easily.
and my lord i tracked, and tracked, i tracked so long i went back and started over cuz i just knew any deer shot through the lungs could not live that long and i must have got on the wrong track somewhere, but nope it was him.
i finally said to myself, self if you keep pushing this deer he is never going to stop travelin.
so i backed out, went back home and came back several hours later. i was then able to get close enough to jump him up and killed him that time as came up out of a draw at about thirty yards running with a shot that hit him straight between the shoulder blades and broke his back.
and yes he had a small little hole through both lungs from my first shot when i gutted him out.
a small area of bruising and damaged lung tissue around the bullet hole and it was a complete passthrough.
impossible you might say, well i did do..
but i also was standing over a double lunged buck that i had shot many hours before, tracked for over a mile, and still had to shoot on the run.
i dunno, you guys do the math on that one.
but i got rid of those dam bullets believe me and went to the biggest hollowpoint i could get my hands on.
and low and behold,, the only other deer i shot with that pistol and those big soft hollowpoints , shot through the lungs just the same way made it about 100 yards and expired.
no pass through on that one, but massive lung tissue damage.
but after that i quit shooting deer with that pistol altogether.
shoot plumb thru one and he runs a mile,, shoot another broadside at 40 yards and it wont get out the other side..
i started packing a bigger pistol that didnt hurt my dam ears so ever lovin terrible.
and did a much better job on critters of all sizes.

[whelenshooter]

I suppose as with anything else in life you have to draw a line somewhere but it's best to be careful. Some cartridges aren't up to the task of humanely killing a deer size animal that's for sure. But if humanely means quickly (whatever the definition of that is) then archery kills become suspect. You can argue whether archery will kill better than a 38 in a given situation but you can't argue that archery kills as quickly as often as high intensity center fire cartridges. Many times good archery hits will still let a deer run for many seconds/minutes before they bleed out. A high intensity center fire cartridge would add tissue and systemic shock to the equation equaling 'usually' a quicker kill. It also takes, in my opinion, more skill, more discernment, and more self control to kill cleanly with archery than with high intensity center fire cartridges. Not all hunters, or maybe most, have those traits. Several of those who've spoken against the op's 38 query have defended archery. We walk a fine and dangerous line when we condemn other's methods and tools needlessly. There has to be a line but where is it for that 'quick clean kill'? Who defines quick and clean? Should we all have to shoot 30/06's with jacketed bullets and higher capacity rifles at 50 yards max range?

This can become ridiculous at both ends of the spectrum.

david

[357maximum]

We walk a fine and dangerous line when we condemn other's methods and tools needlessly. There has to be a line but where is it for that 'quick clean kill'? Who defines quick and clean? david

David


Thank you.......I spend 3/4 of my "gun deer" time in Southern Michigan....I know very few here who would not jump at the chance to use a 357/44 carbine instead of a shotgun/muzzleloader especially the youth hunters that are basically forced by law to endure a shotgun because their old man is too busy/cheap to buy/learn the use of a muzzleloader that will not kick their kids ****...you see a 30-06 is not legal here, likely never will be. I live right near "THE LINE" I have to go 3/4 of a mile north to use a 30/06....makes sense right?

[robertbank]

Shot a large buck in Alberta with my 30-06. Bullet hit just back of the shoulders taking his spine out. He dropped like a rock but was still very much alive and would have been for quite some time. The rifle shot was under 100 yards. He jumped as I pulled the trigger.
A bullet in the ear from a model 27 ended it in an instant.

Take Care

Bob

[Beerd]

goofy,

That story was worth the price of admission right there! :goodpost:
..

[Petrol & Powder]

200 posts !!! Yeah we made it !

Can we put this one to sleep now ?

[35remington]

"Many times good archery hits will still let a deer run for many seconds/minutes before they bleed out."

Whelenshooter, you don't hunt deer with bows much. Death runs are little longer than rifle kills. Wound channels are far larger than low velocity firearm bullets.

Remember the big razor blades? Several on the front of each arrow, with considerable surface area and diameter on each arrow? I'm a bow hunter as well. I am not ignorant of how they kill.....and they do kill quite a bit better than low velocity bullets. Enough so that bringing them in to the argument in a comparative sense to weak centerfire rounds is not warranted.

357, after you pop the deer with your underpowered pistol, be sure to take a picture of the wound channel through the lungs if you find it after you shoot it. It'll be the size I've forecast. Be sure, if you're fair, to post that as well.

If you're going to be underwhelming in your choice of firearms, might as well post all the evidence to see.

Sorry not to be all rah-rah about your eat up to the hole 32-20 ballistics.....but you did make yourself a poster boy for criticism on that one by deciding to stick your oar in this thread. I'd have left you alone up to that point. Given all the options you have for calibers, what good can come of seeing how close you can get to a .22? What good can come of eliminating any margin and in fact put yourself behind the "inadequate" part of the curve?

I guess if you haven't asked yourself that very relevant question, you probably aren't ever gonna.

[rking22]

I can't believe I've read the whole thing.... But Goofy made it worth it , you are a natural story teller , I got the visual and sprayed my drink all over the keyboard. Good show!

[35remington]

There's not a whole lot more to add. I'll bow out now.

I am considerably reassured by the very likely legitimate belief that if you gave any reasonably experienced deer hunter the choice of such weak ballistics for their use on deer, the very vast majority will decline to employ a cartridge developing such low power levels and wound channels.

This is how it should be. There should be a point where low is too low.

[gpalma]

I was just wondering if any of ya'll have had any success using a 38 secial for deer hunting. I was thinking a 158 grain swc at 900 fps would do the job. In particular if it was loaded with a pure lead bullet and the range was short less than 75 yards. I have an old 5 screw model 14 masterpeice and thought it would be a blast to send that bullet into a deer. I don't see any reason it shouldn't work. This load goe thru 5-6 inches of green yellow pine why not thru the rib cage and heart and lungs of a whitetail. Any feed back would be very appreciated.

Would it kill them? Yes. Would it be my first choice? No.

Have killed them with a 128gr 45cal lead round ball with 60gr FFg behind it. But, that isn't my first choice either. Energies are likely a bit more with the round ball than a 158gr at 900fps.

You had better be close, understand a deer's anatomy very well, be picky about your shots and execute your shots unerringly.

[357maximum]

35 THANKS for playing.....we decidedly disagree on a few things...that is okay. I know what I can do, but some of your assumptions about what I have and have not asked myself are way off base, but that happens with long distance assumptions. I will keep my ***-u-me "ing" to myself as I KNOW my thoughts on the matter would be taken all wrong.

If it makes you feel better...I did kill a sparrow with a 340grain lee boolit doing about 1800fps today with my 45/70. I killed it so good I almost erased the fact that it existed, except for a few feathers and some red splotches in the snow.

[Nrut]

Really?????????

Best of marlinman80
If you raise the rear of the scope your line of sight goes below line of bore. Thats why extreme long range guns have a taller front mount and shorter rear mount.

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation.

head shot and the .300 ackley at 4100fps and a 180 A-frame wan't much left

I could take my old 1903-a4 and go anywhere in Ga and shoot a deer within 1100yards

I am no slouch with a gun,one has taken me all over the world. I joined Team USA in 1994 as a junior olympian in uit 10 meter and 50 meter free pistol.

I have a Degree in Firearms Technology from the NRA gunsmithing school in Troy, North Carolina.
I've built almost every gun I own Except a few.

I have amazing skill in the woods. The 9 point buck I killed last year was at 6' with a 30-30 on the ground.

I have physically touched 3 deer in the woods that were in perfect health!

The OBG that taught me to shoot got 1/2" groups out of wadcutters at 50 yards from a ransom rest. He held a 1" group offhand at 50 yards easy. The 38 special is one of the most accurate pistol cartridges ever desinged. A good one should group at 2" at 100 yards (at least)

How is a 1.25" group at 50 yards a record with a 38 special? Any NRA master shooter can do this consistentley on a bullseye course at 50 yards. They call them Grand master shooters.

Well sir if you could take that old model 14 masterpeice and shoot something in the eye at 50 yards like I can it probably wouldn't seem that dumb
Unbelievable ain't M-Tecs..
Everybody is to busy telling their story to realize they are by lied to by the original poster..
Below is the another quote from him to add to your list..
Like I said UNBELIEVABLE!


Jumbeaux,

No sir old 8x redfeild target scope shimmed under the front mount to give me every click of + elevation. The old weaver 330 is in the safe cosmolined.
Here we have a guy who claims to have a degree in firearms technology from the NRA gunsmithing school and he cosmolined a scope and puts it in a safe..
Wow!!
Laffin'

[robertbank]

By unanimous consent we bid ado to this thread may all the little fawns sleep well tonite.

If anyone wants me to reopen the thread just PM me.

Take Care

Bob