Smokeless or BP in Pedersoli Sharpes?

[Nardoo]

I read with interest the thread development on smokeless loads in Sharpes rifles. Not wishing to inflame matters I began afresh.

My name is Allan Sinclair and I unashamedly shoot a Pedersoli Sharpes 45/90. It is a joy to use and shoots 10 shot groups at 100 metres of 1 1/2" using my duplex load of 5 gns of Benchmark 1 and 74 gns of Wano PP Cartridge. It aint a real Sharpes because they are quite difficult to obtain down here in Australia. And to me it does not appear to be made out of spaghetti.

In fact I also shoot quail with a 1952 Beretta S3 and use a Perazzi MX8 for trap. They do not appear to be made of pasta and were both designed and built in Italy.

But to get to the point, my one year old Pedersoli is marked under the barrel:
"FOR BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE 0NLY". Perhaps they are marked differently for different world markets.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317/nardoo/100_2630.jpg


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317/nardoo/100_2632.jpg

Nardoo

[crossfireoops]

Mate, I own 2 Pedersolis, though they now are more correctly titled "Badgersolis"...... re-fitted / rebarreled with a coupla' Appleton Wisconsin USAs finest.

Both '74 side hammer Sharps.

Logbook on my .45 shows well in excess of 11,000 shots, and I have NEVER had a problem with this action since refitting own of my own "Unobtanium" firing pins.

It's new younger brother's just about complete, a "Switch Barrel" rig, in .38-50 Rem.Hepburn, for sillhouette, and a .45-100 for longer work.

The Pedersoli FORGED STEEL reciever is a nice piece of work, or that's been my experience, ....so far.

No flies whatever on these actions, and I've tuned up MANY a standard Pedersoli for new owners, and seen them perform admirably ........the newer barrels have been REALLY good, though I'm a bit underwhelmed at the chamber dimensions They've chosen.

The Ped. Rolling block is WAY off original Roller print,.....I have no earthly notion as to why they chose to stretch the span between block and hammer pins the way they did. I find 'em a bit wierd lookin', having grown up with original Rems. That said, they WILL shoot well.

The "Dark Valley" guns are an entirely different breed of cat, I'm not going to name the brands, but there's several "Economy Grade" Italian guns,.....(and I've seen a ton of 'em sold in and around Tombstone, Az).........these range from a poor so-so quality to downright awful.
Barrel dimensions all over the place ( some WAY tight).......and fulla' soft parts.

It was THOSE that I would caution one about driving to hard,.........frankly I wouldn't advise driving one at all,.....And after too many hair-pulling episodes trying to sort out the poor workmanship discussed, .....will no longer even work on them.......NO WAY.

That's a fine looking rig you've got there, ....I too have seen 'em stamped thus, as noted with "Cowboy Action" so big around Tombstone ( not far from my little "Ranchito")....a lot of them make there way through..........I'll try to track down and photo those same marks,.....a bud has a roller marked thus, I helped him mount and dial in his sights some time back.

Wishing you a very Merry Christmas

GTC

[Dale53]

Back when I was shooting and competing regularly in BPCR Silhouette, nearly ALL of us around here used duplex loading (10% smokeless by weight and 90% Black Powder). You can literally shoot all day without cleaning or wiping. Accuracy is excellent and NO DERN BLOWTUBING to contend with.

However, when our main shooting venue went "NRA" we had to learn to shoot straight black powder. Frankly, for general use, I prefer duplex. I must say, though, that straight black can work and work well. It is just a bit more labor intensive when shooting.

The Pedersoli rifles are excellent rifles and shoot well. They will work well with duplex OR straight black.

Dale53

[omgb]

OK, I had the same concerns when I bought my pedersoli 45-90 back in 02. I spoke with Dick Trenk about it. He's the Pedersoli man here in the US of A. Dick tells me that the actions are rated for 28,000 psi with no problems. That means that smokeless loads are possible. I've shot 28 grains of AA 5744 in mine with excellent results. I've also used factory ammo (Black Hills 45-90) and it was so so. I suspect the reason was that the factory stuff was loaded for lever actions with short bullets and short over all length. My favorite load uses 7 grains of RL 7, (by weight) and 79 grains by measure of GOEX2f. I uses a .030 veggie wad between powder and bullet base. The bullet is a 520 grain Lyman Postell lubed with SPG or White Lightning. I seat the slugs out to touch the rifleing. Slugs are cast from 1-20 tin/lead and sized at .459.

I tried Hodgdon's Triple 7 and it was OK. A lot hotter than BP but nothing special accuracy wise.

[John Boy]

Nardoo ... never heard or seen any Pedersoli Sharp's rifles in the US marked 'For Black Powder Only'

Here's what I do know about the steel used to make them:
Pedersoli barrels are machined from a chrome moly alloy having the metalurgical composition called 30Cr Mo4 Uni 7845 which is a patented alloy variation developed by Mauser in the 1930s specially for their new M34 light machinegun which has such a rapid rate of fire. The alloy was designed to prevent or minimize the barrel from "walking" the bullets on the target as the barrel heated up. To my knowledge only Mauser, Sako, Mannlicher and Walther use this expensive alloy which Pedersoli buys.

For our action frames ( and other parts such as breech blocks etc.) we use a special alloy which is best suited for the "forging" process we use on ALL our Sharps, Rolling Block, Trapdoor, Colt Lightning and forthcoming HiWall rifles.
This alloy is identified as being 18Cr Mo4. This alloy alows what is called "cementation hardening." Which gives a hard wear resistant surface of proper depth, while maintaining a non-brittle softer internal molecular structure necessary on such parts which are subject to shock and high stress loadings repeatedly.
This alloy also allows us to produce very colorful case hardened exterior surfaces so desired in fine guns. The alloy can also be finished in standard hot blue/black or "coin" color finishes.

Smaller parts are made from equally suitable steel alloys and are properly heat treated by means of induction coil methods and oil or water quenched, according to the desired hardness and type of alloy being used.

You may want to send Dick Trenk an email ( I don't have it but he is a poster on ... http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/general.msnw and can send a mail from there

Dick is the US Pedersoli Marketing Consultant

[PatMarlin]

Nice lookin' Sharps.

I was thinking the slow mil surps would be an experiment for low pressure loads out of my Trapdoor.

[KCSO]

Once agan, look at the firing pin! If it is a big pin and has a drop our rather than a dovetailed gas shield you need to stick to BLACK POWDER pressures. The firing pin is why Waters rated the Sharps action as a Catagory 1 (Weak ) action. With the bushed pin and the dovetailed blast shield the gun will handle more load than you will. Whne you pierce a primer with the big pin, and you will if you even shoot fffg you will know why they designed the shield and went to the smaller, and somewhat more breakable small pin.

[crossfireoops]

Once agan, look at the firing pin! If it is a big pin and has a drop our rather than a dovetailed gas shield you need to stick to BLACK POWDER pressures. The firing pin is why Waters rated the Sharps action as a Catagory 1 (Weak ) action. With the bushed pin and the dovetailed blast shield the gun will handle more load than you will. Whne you pierce a primer with the big pin, and you will if you even shoot fffg you will know why they designed the shield and went to the smaller, and somewhat more breakable small pin.

Truer, and more perspicascious words are seldom heard.

Wish I'd said that.

Some of these "Replicas" are nothing short of PATHETIC.

Shouldn't even be allowed to be imported.

GTC

[PatMarlin]

Who'a making their sharps with the "bushed pin and the dovetailed blast shield?"

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've used duplex in my 45/70 and 40/65 Peds but both shot much tighter groups with straight black. In chronographing these loads the variation was also much greater than just BP.

I tend to agree, the Peds are surpurbly finished rifles especially in the higher grade models like my 50/90 "Boss Gun". The colour case hardening & timber are very pleasing. Loaded with 105gn FG and a PJ 650gn Creedmoor boolit, I don't think duplex loads are needed in this one:Fire:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5090cch.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture747.jpg

[JSnover]

stick to BLACK POWDER pressures.

That's the key: Black powder PRESSURES. A group of BPCR shooters in my neck of the woods have been shooting Pdersoli Sharps rifles with about 25 grains of SR4759 under a 385 gr bullet for years with no problems. According to Lyman #48, the 1873 Trapdoor is rated for 18000 cup. This load creates about 13000-14000 cup.