.58 Caliber - 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket

[BrassMagnet]

I'm starting to have dreams of an 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket in .58 caliber.

It all started when I looked up this mould:

98255

It looked like this when I got it:

98256

Then I looked up the mould, 575213, in the Lyman 1958 reloading manual.

The 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket in .58 came with flip up sight leafs which allowed ranges of 200, 300, and 600 yards. This was such a range improvement that artillery units had to set up further behind their own lines to survive this rifled musket.
Wow! Who knows where to find one or a decent replica?

[Nobade]

Well, Dixie Gun works has lots of them. I have a Miroku myself, which works very well after a lot of work done to it. I hear the new Silver Line Pedersolis are pretty good out of the box. Great fun to play with once you learn their ways!

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Oh, they are addicting! Most of the M 61 and 63 originals I see are in the 1500-2500 range for good to very good shootable types with the top condition ones running about 2500 to 4500. Any decent condition piece with a Confederate connection carries a premium. There were many Civil War contract guns of the same models and were for the most part as good as and in some cases better than the US arsenal made ones. Bore condition is one thing to concentrate on when looking at any original.

Several Italian makers do or have made repros of the various models, so some can be found in very good used condition for a lot less than the new repros with all the repros being less $ than the originals.

You might broaden your search a little and not only include M 1861s but M 1863s and P 53 British Enfields or other similar European rifled muskets. After all, many British and European rifled muskets were sold to and used by both sides during the Civil War. I also wouldn't reject looking at the various shorter 2 band rifles and carbines (musketoons).

[BrassMagnet]

Oh, they are addicting! Most of the M 61 and 63 originals I see are in the 1500-2500 range for good to very good shootable types with the top condition ones running about 2500 to 4500. Any decent condition piece with a Confederate connection carries a premium. There were many Civil War contract guns of the same models and were for the most part as good as and in some cases better than the US arsenal made ones. Bore condition is one thing to concentrate on when looking at any original.

Several Italian makers do or have made repros of the various models, so some can be found in very good used condition for a lot less than the new repros with all the repros being less $ than the originals.

You might broaden your search a little and not only include M 1861s but M 1863s and P 53 British Enfields or other similar European rifled muskets. After all, many British and European rifled muskets were sold to and used by both sides during the Civil War. I also wouldn't reject looking at the various shorter 2 band rifles and carbines (musketoons).

I was impressed with the 200, 300, and 600 yard capability in a muzzle loader!

[fouronesix]

:grin: Well, what the sights say and what can be accurately shot at those ranges maybe two slightly different things. No doubt the max range of those is much farther than even the max ranges listed on the sights but those longer sight registries were mostly for massed and plunging fire into large target "areas".

[jaystuw]

I wish they had a repro barrel that would fit an original 1861 springfield. My original rifle is in good shape and is fully functional. Just has a bad bore. I understand repro barrels don't fit original guns, something about the line up of the tang screw is the problem. Jay

[ResearchPress]

:grin: Well, what the sights say and what can be accurately shot at those ranges maybe two slightly different things. No doubt the max range of those is much farther than even the max ranges listed on the sights but those longer sight registries were mostly for massed and plunging fire into large target "areas".
In the 19th century in NRA(GB) and Volunteer Rifle Corps competition muzzle loading Enfields were regulary used in target shooting at ranges out to 600 yards. Today the MLAGB (http://www.mlagb.com) holds National Rifle Championship competitions for Enfield rifles at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. A club I belong to shoots an Enfield aggregate match at 600 and 800 yards.

David

[Nobade]

I wish they had a repro barrel that would fit an original 1861 springfield. My original rifle is in good shape and is fully functional. Just has a bad bore. I understand repro barrels don't fit original guns, something about the line up of the tang screw is the problem. Jay

You might want to contact Whitaker machine shop, he makes new barrels complete. Or Bobby Hoyt, he can reline your original and it's not that expensive to have it done.

-Nobade

[Nobade]

In the 19th century in NRA(GB) and Volunteer Rifle Corps competition muzzle loading Enfields were regulary used in target shooting at ranges out to 600 yards. Today the MLAGB (http://www.mlagb.com) holds National Rifle Championship competitions for Enfield rifles at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. A club I belong to shoots an Enfield aggregate match at 600 and 800 yards.



David

Hi David, I have a question for you. What bullets do those competitors use? From experience, I can't imagine a minie' flying that far accurately. But a slick sided paper patched bullet most certainly, and possibly a Wilkinson type bullet. I would like to play with my Enfield at longer ranges, but so far all I have shot from it is minie' bullets and hitting a man sized target at 300M is about a 75% proposition in calm wind. I can't see it working too well way out there. I need to learn!

-Nobade

[DIRT Farmer]

A gentlemanfrom England gave me several styles of minis to work with at midrange in my Enfield last spring but due to several issues I have not tried them out yet. The majority of my shooting over the years has been with the Lyman light mini at 50 and 100 yards. What I have done with the RCBS target has done as well as I would expect my ability with any rifle off hand at 200.

[carbine]

Jaystuw

Nobade gave you the correct advice. The two fella make drop in replacements.

Brassmagnet: You need a minie 1-2 thousandths under bore size for accuracy. So you need to slog the bore.

[bob208]

bob hoyt can make a drop in barrel for the springfields with the right tapered rifling. I used to shoot a repro of a 1863 Remington. it has a 33" barrel and works just as good as a springfield or enfield.

[fouronesix]

:roll:
In the 19th century in NRA(GB) and Volunteer Rifle Corps competition muzzle loading Enfields were regulary used in target shooting at ranges out to 600 yards. Today the MLAGB (http://www.mlagb.com) holds National Rifle Championship competitions for Enfield rifles at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. A club I belong to shoots an Enfield aggregate match at 600 and 800 yards.

David

I'm well aware of the competitions. I don't believe the US M 1861 (referred to in the OP) was designed for target competitions. It's one thing to cite or casually talk about "target" shooting at extended ranges with these (for the benefit of a listening third party) and actually taking one, as issued and in the context of its original purpose on a Civil War battlefield, and firing at a target at the extended ranges. I can take a 69 caliber M 1861 Navy and fire it at a target at 1000 yards then claim to shoot it at 1000 yards. Or shoot at a target at 3000 yards with a high powered center fire. :roll:

Here's my original 69 caliber M 1861 Navy (Whitney-Plymouth) with the sight bar up and in roughly the 1000 yd position. This rifle was issued to a Union ship during the Civil War so it did see action. Now whether or not that extended range feature was practical or was ever used during the blockade- fill in the blanks??? I suppose you could relate the stories about how this rifle has an effective range of 1000 yards. :)

[varsity07840]

Jaystuw

Nobade gave you the correct advice. The two fella make drop in replacements.

Brassmagnet: You need a minie 1-2 thousandths under bore size for accuracy. So you need to slog the bore.

I have a flint 1816, 1841 Mississippi and rifled 1842, all with Hoyt relines, and another rifled 1816
with a Whitacre replacement barrel. They are all great shooters.

Duane

[BrassMagnet]

:grin: Well, what the sights say and what can be accurately shot at those ranges maybe two slightly different things. No doubt the max range of those is much farther than even the max ranges listed on the sights but those longer sight registries were mostly for massed and plunging fire into large target "areas".

I have an article in a Single Shot Exchange magazine which covers the Sandy Hook long range rifle testing.
Can you believe that area was once worthless real estate where they could go shoot all kinds of service rifles with service ammo at a mile or two just to see how it compared?
The designated target area they used was similar to shooting at a football field through the goal posts. They were mainly testing to see if there was any validity to the British tactic of volley fire where a senior NCO or Officer with long range estimating skill calls the range and the entire unit sets their sights as he directs and fires at a formation of troops marching in the open or some other target which considers itself safe because they are too far from the battlefield.
My memory says the testing was done before the Crimean war and the Crimean war supported their results.
Just imagine marching bravely off to war and when you are still miles from the front having your column of troops attacked with volley fire. When a few of your buddies are hit by slugs as big as your thumb while you consider yourself absolutely safe, the footrace for a safe place begins. I wonder how many days it really took to round up all of the survivors and force them back to the battlefield?

[jaystuw]

Thanks guys, really great information. My original barrel has very slight battle damage (a tiny dent from shrapnel that hit the stock in front of the trigger guard and was stopped by the barrel). No structural damage to the barrel but still don't want to reline it for relic reasons.

Best remaining option for me is a new, drop in barrel. I will check with bob hoyt or whitaker. To save me sticker shock, Do you guys think I could get out the door with a complete barrel w/ sights, breech plug and nipple for under $400 ? (reminder, its a m1861 springfield .58 cal.) Just want to get a ball-park figure before moving forward with this project. Thanks, Jay

[ResearchPress]

Hi David, I have a question for you. What bullets do those competitors use?
I use an RCBS Minie with a shallow base cavity, weighing about 560 grains. Some shooters have modified base plugs so that the bullet has a thicker skirt to withstand heavier charges. There's occasional use of smooth sided bullets, but most shoot grease groove Minie.

All shooting is done from the prone position with the only permitted support the two-point military sling. The Long Range Rifles Branch (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrangerifles/rifle_military.htm) of the MLAGB have some information on shooting with the military muzzle loader.

David

[ResearchPress]

I'm well aware of the competitions. I don't believe the US M 1861 (referred to in the OP) was designed for target competitions. It's one thing to cite or casually talk about "target" shooting at extended ranges with these (for the benefit of a listening third party) and actually taking one, as issued and in the context of its original purpose on a Civil War battlefield, and firing at a target at the extended ranges. I can take a 69 caliber M 1861 Navy and fire it at a target at 1000 yards then claim to shoot it at 1000 yards.............
We use Enfields for the most part for these competitions; unmodified percussion military muzzle loaders and as with your US M 1861 not designed for target competition. We're shooting at known ranges at the same targets used by the full bore/high power rifle shooters, and prone with the two point military sling for support. There's no pretence (or intent) of this replicating a battle field scenario. Scores with the open sighted large bore military rifles are as would be expected lower than achieved with the muzzle loading match rifles of the period.

I'm not quite sure what if any point you were making with your message. However I enjoy my military muzzle loader target shooting competitions and will continue to do so. Never tried my Enfield beyond 800 yards though.

David

[Hickok]

British 1858 Enfield, .577 or .58 caliber, the 2 bander is the best, the main sniping rifle of the Confederate Army. (The Whitworth was in very short supply) I have two Enfields, a 2 bander and a 3 bander. Find a good Parker Hale if you can. Pedersoli now makes these rifles also.

[Nobade]

I use an RCBS Minie with a shallow base cavity, weighing about 560 grains. Some shooters have modified base plugs so that the bullet has a thicker skirt to withstand heavier charges. There's occasional use of smooth sided bullets, but most shoot grease groove Minie.

All shooting is done from the prone position with the only permitted support the two-point military sling. The Long Range Rifles Branch (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrangerifles/rifle_military.htm) of the MLAGB have some information on shooting with the military muzzle loader.

David

Thank you! That does indeed look like a lot of fun. I am going to have to try that on our home range, crude sights indeed.

-Nobade

[RCB1917]

Not to hijack. But I just watched a youtube of a guy shooting an 1861 Peder. Spring. Question; he is using a hand sizer and separate hand luber. Just can't find that made to order sizer. Anybody?

Here's the part of the video that deals with sizing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jWkDPscNyD4#t=135

[ResearchPress]

Is this what you are looking for: Bullet sizer (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_206/pre_0/accessories-professional-accessories-bullet-sizer.html)
Pedersoli: "Easy to use, it is made of aluminium with two steel dies having a different size. The punch has a flat head for the long and maxi bullets (USA 514) and a conical head for the Minié bullets (USA 515)."

David

[RCB1917]

Exactly it. Looked everywhere but the most obvious place! Thanks!

[Seabee1960]

I have an 1861 Springfield replica I bought from Dixie Gun Works 20 years ago. I found that of the three molds I have the Lyman 575213 460 grain on top of 60 grains of GOEX FFg is the most pleasant to shoot and gives me about 6 inch groups at 100 yards. I have noticed that the 530 grain Lyman bullet is also called a 575213 and I am guessing that the difference is in the size of the base plug. The plug for the heavier bullet wobbles in the 460 grain mold. I bought a 1853 Parker Hale Enfield replica at a garage sale here in Ogden Utah for $100 but the Minie bullets that slide freely down the Springfield barrel are a pretty hard press in the Parker Hale. I bought a Lyman 576213 PH 566g grain mold for this rifle but the as cast Minie is still pretty tight. I liked the link to the Pedersoli sizer. That might be just what I need.

My BSA Scout troop loves the annual Musket shoot I put on every year. They prefer the ease of loading and the manageable recoil of the Springfield with the 460 grain bullet over a Hawken or Kentucky style muzzleloader.

[Seabee1960]

101054

[Seabee1960]

After a week of research this is what I found:
Size die at Dixie Gun works that you put in a vise and this:
http://www.lodgewood.com/Lubrisizer-Sizing-Die-_c_96.html

I ordered one because I have the Lyman Lube size press already. I am a machinist and Engineer by profession so I will have to design my own. I will post the drawing in a couple of days and see if there is any interest. The two piece Pedersoli shown in the You Tube video doesn’t seem to be available here in the good old US of A.

[Seabee1960]

1R,

After a week of research this is what I found:
Size die at Dixie Gun works that you put in a vise and this:
http://www.lodgewood.com/Lubrisizer-Sizing-Die-_c_96.html

I ordered one because I have the Lyman Lube size press already. I am a machinist and Engineer by profession so I will have to design my own. I will post the drawing in a couple of days and see if there is any interest. The two piece Pedersoli shown in the You Tube video doesn’t seem to be available here in the good old US of A.

My concept will have a hollow plunger with the lube inside so you can size and lube in one push. I wonder if we could sell any of these?
It seems that all the Enfiled replicas have a hard time with the standard Lyman Minie.

Monte,

[RCB1917]

Pedersoli told me to deal with this company re accessories, web page URL; http://www.flintlocksetc.com/contact_us.htm

Email; flintetc@berkshire.rr.com

I have not yet contacted them myself re a .58 sizer.

[Seabee1960]

101665

I am thinking a guy could build this for about $ 75 if there was any interest. Lube and size in one push with one small hand tool. If the Pedersoli people wanted to sell their tools they would make them more available. I went to the web page for the preferred American vendor and it looks like they want to sell a catalog as much as they want to sell products.

[Nobade]

Check this out:
http://www.meachamrifles.com/page.php?id=73

Made in America and much easier to deal with than Pedersoli! Pretty neat device.

-Nobade

[RCB1917]

I'm always up for new devices and good ideas re meachamrifles link. However looking at the guy running the Pedersoli sizer and luber in the youtube video really seem like simple range friendly devices. (I do have an Ammomaster press and could mount the push thru mecham in that).

I agree with Seabee its a mystery to me why Pedersoli selects one outfit to handle their stuff, but they don't have an easy way to order on line? In this internet day and age that's odd.

[fouronesix]

I'm still trying to figure out why the need to lubricate the Minié during the sizing operation. Some variation on the basic push-through design like the Lee, Lodgewood or Pedersoli are so simple, work great and are inexpensive. Anytime the lubricator is added it GREATLY increases the difficulty and expense of design plus makes for more fiddling around each time a different lube is needed or wanted.

[Seabee1960]

The elegance of this design is that if you don’t want lube you just pull the lube plunger out and push the Minie through the sizing die. The idea was that you could replace the sizing dies as needed from .570 to .695 for about $20 per steel size die.
The Pedersoli lube tool is separate and only lubes the scrape groves. Since lube becomes liquid and liquid isn’t compressible I can’t see any advantage to lubing the groves and diminishing their “scraping” capability. I like lube in the hollow space. I find these aids in expanding the Minie base skirt and deposits a layer of lubricant on the full length of the barrel, where you need it. It seems to me that one operation for both lube and size is pretty efficient and less messy than smearing the soft bullet lube with your fingers.
I don’t know what the Pedersoli tools cost but since there are two of them in the set I think this design would be less expensive by ½. But we can only guess at the Pedersoli price because you can’t get an answer from them and I have never seen one outside of the YouTube video.
I went to Lodgewood and bought a .576 size die for the standard Lyman 450 Lube size press but these aren’t exactly cheap and I have used one to size cast bootils for about 25 years now and can tell you that changing the lube out of one of these is no picnic.
I am going to scrounge some aluminum bar stock ends and build one on my old South Bend 10A. If it works I will build a dozen more and offer them for test to our community.

[RCB1917]

Yup, your project sounds interesting for sure. The info I just got re sizer; "USA515-58 $85.00 and shipping/handling $10.95"

[Seabee1960]

Nobade,

I dont think they make this in .58 Cal.

101874

[Nobade]

They don't, but it could be used as a model to make your own scaled up version.

-Nobade

[BrassMagnet]

I think I might have found a musket! I'm waiting on a PM back!

PM'ed back at BrassMagnet's "I'll take it!" speed!

I did find one!

[varsity07840]

George will make you any size die you want, which by the way is rather important. You need to know your bore size(actual, not advertised) in order to know you die size which should be no smaller than .002. http://oldfoxtraders.com/TnMolds/

Duane

[fouronesix]

I think I might have found a musket! I'm waiting on a PM back!

PM'ed back at BrassMagnet's "I'll take it!" speed!

I did find one!

Hope it's a good one especially if original. Just like real estate- location, location, location or in this case- bore condition, bore condition bore condition. When you get it you can set up at the extended ranges indicated by the rear sight registrations as recommended and lectured about by some on this thread and blast away...... hope you have a good spotter, visible impact zone and/or very large target backer :)

[BrassMagnet]

Hope it's a good one especially if original. Just like real estate- location, location, location or in this case- bore condition, bore condition bore condition. When you get it you can set up at the extended ranges indicated by the rear sight registrations as recommended and lectured about by some on this thread and blast away...... hope you have a good spotter, visible impact zone and/or very large target backer :)

This is the description and I am confident because I am buying it from drhall762:

Armi Sport 1861 Springfield .58 cal. unfired with sling and bayonet

Now I have two complaints.

1. When I requested a lead to one in this thread, no one told me about this one when it was listed

2. When I looked over his thread, I didn't see it until the second time it came around, or was it the fifth or sixth time?

Make that three complaints!

3. Cag40Navy hasn't had lessons on how to dipper pour these out of my moulds. He'll probably post a thread similar to "It's way too slow and Brass wants way too many!"

[Cag40Navy]

This is the description and I am confident because I am buying it from drhall762:

Armi Sport 1861 Springfield .58 cal. unfired with sling and bayonet

Now I have two complaints.

1. When I requested a lead to one in this thread, no one told me about this one when it was listed

2. When I looked over his thread, I didn't see it until the second time it came around, or was it the fifth or sixth time?

Make that three complaints!

3. Cag40Navy hasn't had lessons on how to dipper pour these out of my moulds. He'll probably post a thread similar to "It's way too slow and Brass wants way too many!"

Yay! Another task at hand... When will you want this done? :mrgreen:

[BrassMagnet]

All good Task Masters want everything immediately, if not sooner!

[Cag40Navy]

All good Task Masters want everything immediately, if not sooner!

Yessir. Let me get the time machine warmed up.

104144

[BrassMagnet]

Yessir. Let me get the time machine warmed up.

104144

Might even help when we score the hits!

[BrassMagnet]

Time for an update.

I found a second 575213 mould in swapping and selling.
I also have a Lee 585505 Lee Minie mould.
Musket should arrive on Monday or Tuesday.
I can't wait. Wait a minute. I have to wait! No Time Travel here!

[BrassMagnet]

It's here early! Arrived today! Cag40Nave is out back dipper casting! Guess what moulds he gets to try next?

Three guesses and if they are not 575213, 575213, and 585505 then you lose!

[bones92]

I have an ArmiSport version of the 1861 Springfield. Anyone have any experience with shooting one of these? I've yet to test it out, but I am eagerly looking forward to doing so.

[BrassMagnet]

I have an ArmiSport version of the 1861 Springfield. Anyone have any experience with shooting one of these? I've yet to test it out, but I am eagerly looking forward to doing so.

i have the same exact model that you have. I just got it and I haven't managed to try it yet.

[BrassMagnet]

I managed to find a store with propellent and #11 caps.
I guess I really should have looked to see if it uses #11 caps.
Oh, well. I was driving down the highway and I saw a store I had never seen before. Well stocked and I was able to buy 1,000 caps. If they won't fit this then I'll just have to use them on the .36!

[fouronesix]

Well if it is a .36 cal rifle then maybe the #11s will work. If it has the small nipple or is a revolver then many times they take a #10 cap.

On your musket I'd bet it has a musket nipple so uses a musket cap. All caps are kind of hard to find- especially the musket caps, so not a bad plan in getting the #11s. The #11s will work but require a #11 nipple for that musket. I think Track of the Wolf sells a #11 nipple for the Armi Sport M1861 musket and they should be 8x1 metric. If in doubt call Track of the Wolf.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1

[trapper9260]

I see this post and I read it and found it interesting because i got a 1864 Brigsburg 58cal. say on the side plate but i was told it is really a 1863 because of the rings for the barrel and stock.I got it back from the gun smith yesterday and in working order.and can be used also fond a bayonet for it years ago. my dad had it sit in the attic years ago and did not do anything with it .it was given to him and i got it fix and the gunsmith tested it and shot good and just need to sight it in now he shot ball and patch in it for his test.He said it was the oldest gun he shot.I am looking forward of shooting it and i also working on getting some moulds also to cast myself.I am looking for a sling for it now.then the gun will have all it was to have after.

[fouronesix]

trapper9260,
Good hear you got the old musket into working order!! You can shoot either Miniés or patched roundballs. The smith shot the roundballs probably because that was the easiest or handiest for him or he may not have had handy access to a Minié.

I'm not absolutely certain based on your post but I think your musket IS a model 1861. Is the lock plate marked "US Bridesburg 1864"? According to Civil War arms references, Jenks and Son had a large military contract for M1861s (many or all were marked Bridesburg) and they can have dates ranging from 1861 to 1865.

As I understand them, the "rules of thumb" include: The correct barrel bands for the model 1861 would be flat and have band springs. While the barrel bands for the M1863 would be rounded. The hammers were slightly different between the M1861 and the M1863. The bolster on the M1861s would have been rounded and have a clean-out screw. The bolster on the M1863s would have been flat with no clean-out screw. Of course there were variations among the many, various arms contractors during the Civil War, and exceptions can be found including variations among those called "special contract" models. And of course, your musket could be a mix of parts. I would tend to classify it as an M1861 if the lock and barrel are M1861... even if the stock or other furniture are from an M1863.

No matter, get that thing to the range and see how it shoots! They seem to do best with light to medium charges of real blackpowder. In 58 cal muskets, I don't like to exceed more than about 60 gr of FF and it's certainly not recommended to hot rod any original.

[trapper9260]

trapper9260,
Good hear you got the old musket into working order!! You can shoot either Miniés or patched roundballs. The smith shot the roundballs probably because that was the easiest or handiest for him or he may not have had handy access to a Minié.

I'm not absolutely certain based on your post but I think your musket IS a model 1861. Is the lock plate marked "US Bridesburg 1864"? According to Civil War arms references, Jenks and Son had a large military contract for M1861s (many or all were marked Bridesburg) and they can have dates ranging from 1861 to 1865.

As I understand them, the "rules of thumb" include: The correct barrel bands for the model 1861 would be flat and have band springs. While the barrel bands for the M1863 would be rounded. The hammers were slightly different between the M1861 and the M1863. The bolster on the M1861s would have been rounded and have a clean-out screw. The bolster on the M1863s would have been flat with no clean-out screw. Of course there were variations among the many, various arms contractors during the Civil War, and exceptions can be found including variations among those called "special contract" models. And of course, your musket could be a mix of parts. I would tend to classify it as an M1861 if the lock and barrel are M1861... even if the stock or other furniture are from an M1863.

No matter, get that thing to the range and see how it shoots! They seem to do best with light to medium charges of real blackpowder. In 58 cal muskets, I don't like to exceed more than about 60 gr of FF and it's certainly not recommended to hot rod any original.

Thank you for your help on some things that you clear up for me . it is like you stated about the M1863 All that you said about it.Yes it was also easy for the gunsmith to use round balls to test it.I am getting some moulds for me to cast some mini and round balls .At first when I had someone else look at the gun they told me that do not shoot it for how they said it was.Then later on in years i went to this gunsmith and ask him to look at it and see what he said and he told me it look shootable. So I went that way and had him get the missing part that was reprodution and had to replace a broken part also and now it is good to go .He did say toward the breech plug some of the riflen was gone but that is not going to be a problem that the rest was in the rest of the barrel.to the end of the barrel.now I have a complete rifle now.Need to ust find a sling for it. Thank you also for letting me know to est use real BP in it and how much. Here is the link I found n the company that made it. http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=9936,DATABASE=objects,.thnak you

[fouronesix]

The NRA museum is another source of information. Here's a link to a Bridesburg M1861 with photos.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/a-nation-asunder/case-37-arms-for-the-union-union-rifles,-a-northern-arms-factory/alfred-jenks-son-model-1861-percussion-rifle-musket.aspx

[trapper9260]

The NRA museum is another source of information. Here's a link to a Bridesburg M1861 with photos.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/a-nation-asunder/case-37-arms-for-the-union-union-rifles,-a-northern-arms-factory/alfred-jenks-son-model-1861-percussion-rifle-musket.aspx

Thank you I look at the site and my dose not have that clean out like the on that is show.That is why I said you got it for saying it is a 1863M .Thank you

[fouronesix]

Yes, that bolster indicates M1863, so it may be one of the late Jenks M1861 contract muskets that was built in an M1863 Type I configuration. It would take an expert in these arms, with the musket in hand, to tell for sure. The Springfield Museum info does mention that possibility in their write up of one in their collection. IF that is the case with yours, it does increase value some because it may be in more of an original condition than thought.

"Manufactured by Alfred Jenks & Son, Bridesburg, Pa. in 1864 - Late Model 1861 Jenks contract rifle-musket and is actually in Model 1863 Type I configuration. Jenks was the only contractor to make weapons in 1863 configuration. Clean-out screw eliminated. Clamp type barrel bands. Jenks & Sons manufactured 98,464 M1861 rifle-muskets."

[trapper9260]

108506108507108508108509108510108511

Here is some pics i just took of it and think you like to see it and also other might like to see how it looks also.

[fouronesix]

trapper,
Those attachment links don't seem to work. While this thread has wandered a bit I think it is still on topic of M1861 & M1863 rifle muskets so would like to see photos of your Bridesburg.

[trapper9260]

trapper,
Those attachment links don't seem to work. While this thread has wandered a bit I think it is still on topic of M1861 & M1863 rifle muskets so would like to see photos of your Bridesburg.

I do not know how to post the pics on here that is why I try what I did if you give me your email address I can email you the pics and go from there.

[fouronesix]

Ok, it's not too hard to add image to post- just a few steps.
90-100kb image file size is best and JPG (JPEG) format works well.

When storing image files on computer for use in posting, save or transfer the image file you want to post to the "Desktop". That way it is easier to select a visible file on your screen. (there are other ways, this is just the one I use)

On the Forum site:

Click "Reply" then type in message as per normal
Click "Manage Attachments". If it doesn't show then click "Go Advanced" then click "Manage Attachments".
a small window will pop up
Click "Add Files"
Click "Choose Files"
a small window will pop up
Click "Desktop" (or location of your photos in your computer)
Click on image file you want to post
Click on "Choose"
Click on "Upload". This adds the selected image file to your post and takes a few seconds to load.

Click X or close small pop up window.

Follow those steps exactly and it should add photos to a post. You can choose "Review Post" to see results.

If satisfied, Click "Submit Reply".

Just to practice go to the "Testing Area" of the forum and try adding generic photos to a post. After you've done it a few times it gets fairly easy and routine.

[trapper9260]

Here is the pics I got of the gun and thank you for given me the info how to post the pics.108592108593108594

[fouronesix]

Super! Thanks for posting the pics.
Yes, It appears to have all the attributes of an M1863 Type I (the Type IIs will have barrel band springs). So I'd have to call it an M1861 Jenks contract made in M1863 Type I configuration. Really, I see only one or two small replaced parts and that will not change the originality. Even has bayo! It's time to shoot it.... then of course clean well.

[trapper9260]

Yes it had some parts missing that is why they where replace and the screw was replace because when the gunsmith work on it it was not in good shape.He try to keep it as the way it should be as much as he can and the one that he got the parts that was needed said the same as you of what it is for what the gunsmith told him.And thank you for letting me know that the parts that was replaced also it is good to know also.I just waite for the moulds and get some FFG black powder and some other things for the use of it .I know you are trying to help me also that is why I wanted to show you the pics of it and also since this post was talking about the 58 cal and some is trying to learn about it like I do and for them to know of that some was contracted will help them understand better about the history of the gun thank you for your help.

[fouronesix]

Absolutely- nothing like shooting an artifact of history! Looks like you've got a new nipple installed. Now some musket caps if that's the nipple size. Also, a long (40-44"), fairly heavy cleaning rod, 58 cal brass jag, some patches (I use pieces of cotton tee shirt if available), some moose milk (ballistol in water @ about 1:10 mix), nipple wrench, screw drivers that fit the screws, powder measure (I use one of the adjustable types), Minié mold of course (I like Lyman and RCBS- not Lee), some pure or near pure lead. I use plain Crisco for Minié lube most of the time. You can add a little beeswax to stiffen the Crisco lube for hot summer shooting if needed.

To clean these thoroughly and not risk adding rust to the already etched and/or pitted bore, I take the barrel out. Some scoff at that, but with care in barrel removal it won't hurt the gun and ensures complete, correct cleaning of the bore. Remove the tang screw and loosen barrel band screws, remove barrel bands. The barrel should lift out. Remove nipple. Place breech end in hot soapy water (I use a 2 quart plastic tub). With a large patch over the jag, pump soapy water up and down bore. Empty water and replace with clean hot water and repeat. Clean nipple and scrub out nipple seat with pipe cleaner. Run paper towel patches in bore while barrel is still hot to speed drying. Once dry, thoroughly oil bore. Replace nipple. Re-assemble musket. Check bore with clean patch a few days later to check for rust. Re-oil if necessary.

I usually start with about a 50 gr charge of FF blackpowder under a Minié in the 58 cal muskets. Seat the Minié firmly on the powder charge. I don't clean between shots as the undersized Miniés were designed to shoot continuous strings without cleaning. I usually shoot a string on target of about 5-10 shots before swabbing bore with moose milk followed by a dry patch before resuming shooting. The sights on these may or may not be regulated very well so use a large target backer at 25 or 50 yards to start with. They usually shoot very high even at 50 yards even on lowest sight setting so plan accordingly.
Good luck!

[trapper9260]

Thank you for all your help and explain to me what need to do.I am waite on a mold for the minie to cast i will use pure lead like I do when I cast balls.I have the lead and waite for the mold it is on order I think t is a lyman if i remember right.The nipple is not a musket nipple but I have the nipple for the other muzzleloader I have 2 50cal that have side hammers that I use and deer hunt with, one is a navy arms and the other is cva . Thank you for all,yes also the nipple had to be replace it was broken and was replace years ago.

[BrassMagnet]

Thank you for all your help and explain to me what need to do.I am waite on a mold for the minie to cast i will use pure lead like I do when I cast balls.I have the lead and waite for the mold it is on order I think t is a lyman if i remember right.The nipple is not a musket nipple but I have the nipple for the other muzzleloader I have 2 50cal that have side hammers that I use and deer hunt with, one is a navy arms and the other is cva . Thank you for all,yes also the nipple had to be replace it was broken and was replace years ago.

Cag40Navy is willing to cast up some Minie Bullets for you.
I have the Lee and Lyman Minie Bullet moulds. I have a new to me 20# Lee dipper pot which needs a good road test.

[trapper9260]

Cag40Navy is willing to cast up some Minie Bullets for you.
I have the Lee and Lyman Minie Bullet moulds. I have a new to me 20# Lee dipper pot which needs a good road test.

Thank you for the offer ,I haven the mould come in some time this week.Then I will cast up some after.Thank you willing to help me with it .

[fouronesix]

Here's my Springfield M1863 Type I with a 3 shot, 50 yard group. The load was 50 gr FF Graf Wano, 420 gr RCBS N-S Minié, .580", pure lead, Crisco smeared in grooves.

The point of aim was at 6 o'clock on the black bull, low rear leaf with front sight well buried into the rear notch.

Most (not all!) of the time I can get similar results from other originals including M1841, M1861, M1861 Navy, M1863 Rem Zouave and an LA P53 Enfield. However, because of wear and tear on the originals, I mostly shoot my reproduction Zouave and reproduction P-53.

[trapper9260]

Is that the sling that gose for it.If so where did you get it because i am looking for one for my thank you.

[fouronesix]

trapper,
Yes, nice to have all the accouterments with them. I do have quite a few original leather items like cartridge boxes, cap boxes, belts/buckles, cartridge box slings, etc. but all of the old leather is kind of fragile for everyday use. It's a good idea to use the reproduction stuff for that. Plus, original leather items in good condition are very expensive!

It's been awhile since I got this one so can't remember exactly but IIRC it came from either Fall Creek Suttlery (fcsutler.com) or Regimental Quartermaster (regtqm.com). These companies and others specialize in period correct re-enactment supplies.

Oh and as an aside, Track of the Wolf sells an excellent heavy tent canvas case for these at a very reasonable $8.50.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/29/1/GUN-CASE-63

[trapper9260]

Thank you it is ok for the reproduction stuff that is what I was looking for because I understand about the leather. I just want a sling that match to the rifle that is all .It can be a repro to me.

[trapper9260]

I check out Regimental Quartermaster site and they had a sling for that gun .Thank you

[trapper9260]

I finally shot that gun and boy that thing shot for long shots.Like was stated it will shoot high on a back stop and the 60gr of black powder works for minnies and ball and patch.That is the FFG that was to be used in it.Try it out today finally for how things went I could not shoot it sooner.It take some getting use to also.Thanks for the help also and hope this also helps someone else also.

[BrassMagnet]

Time for an update.

I bought #11 caps which will also work for my .36 ML and then someone suggested this 58-Caliber-1861-Springfield-Rifled-Musket probably used musket caps rather than #11 caps.
I had to head off for some more work related travel and I never even managed to look at the nipple. I had to drive by the same store where I bought the #11 caps, but they didn't have any musket caps. I let them know I would be back in a week and could they get some in by then. I stopped by this morning and they had a thousand of them for me and more on the shelf for regular customers. Wow! Customer service!
They also had some neat moulds, but I will post more about that later in another thread. They don't have any moulds left as a MouldMagnet bought them all for his Mould Shed.