Hopkins and Allen .22 falling block

[MtGun44]

A friend gave me an old .22 falling block, the only marking is "Hopkins & Allen Arms Co,
Norwich Connecticut USA" on the top of the octagon barrel and a SN on the front
of the receiver, hidden by the handguard. It needs a good cleaning, some mild rust
removal and perhaps a reline (hard to tell at this point) but I know nothing about them.

The story is that his father bought in in the 1924 era (approx.) and used it for his
whole life. Not unsalvageable, but no idea what model it may be.

Reminds me of a Savage falling block, has a "saddle ring" on the bottom front of
the action, just behind the handguard. Other than that, nothing notable.

Any info on model would be appreciated. Web searches don't find much.

Bill

[Bullshop Junior]

Pics would be nice.

[Janoosh]

Usually a number and or name on top of barrel near the receiver, such as 822 junior. That's not a saddle ring, it's a take down screw, to remove the barrel. Sometimes the tang is drilled and tapped for a sight.

[Janoosh]

Apologies for the double post. Gun Parts corp in NY has a schematic. The special.part of H and A rifles is the Link to the breech block. You may have an early model. The link will allow you to use a centerfire barrel on the action.

[uscra112]

Bill, if it's a true falling block, it's a Model 922. One of the strongest of the "boy's rifle" genre. The saddle ring is the handle for the barrel retaining screw. Unless the innards are trashed, it's an excellent candidate for a reline or new barrel.

I'll dig up the schematics from deHaas and post.

Yes, a different link makes it a centerfire. A .32 S&W barrel is quite within its' capabilities.

The rollstamp on the barrel marks it as being made after the re-organization in 1898, which was forced by the bankruptcy of Merwin & Hulbert, who up until then had marketed the H&A rifles (and pistols) under it's own name. An early one will be marked Merwin & Hulbert. Many 922s were sold without barrel markings, through hardware wholesalers. My .32 is marked "Enders Royal Dead Shot" on the frame, and there is no barrel marking at all, other than the caliber.

Did Savage make falling blocks? I was not aware...

[uscra112]

The deHaas schematic of the 922. Barrel holding the book flat is a Marlin Model 60 that I just finished fitting to a Stevens Marksman action. Click the upper image to embiggen.
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98287

[MtGun44]

Actually, relining it for a .22 is my most likely option. First scrub indicates last traces of
rifling ending 8-10" from muzzle, but more scrubbing is needed to be certain. I have the
takedown screw out and soaking with ATF now to loosen the bbl. My bet is it was never
taken down, likely previous owners had no idea it was a takedown, purchased used by a 14
year old. Careful look reveals no model numbes. Drilled and tapped for a tang sight, with
original plug screws in place. Rear sight is an unusually nice, sculpted dovetail piece
with the spring of the sight riveted to it, and an odd VERY deep V in the rear. Front post
is missing - smashed off of the dovetail part which is present. Action and hammer/trigger
seem in fine shape.

The guy that gave it to me reports - "It won't shoot straight anymore" and I think I know why,
besides the missing front sight.

Bill

[Tatume]

Hi Bill,

I think it is more likely that the original owners did know it was a take-down model, but realized that doing so would change the point of impact. My Stevens Favorite had not been taken apart in about a century for that reason.

Take care, Tom

[MtGun44]

Hmm. With the sights mounted on the barrel, why would the POI change with removing and
replacing the barrel? It would seem to be like a Contender, and while I never owned one, I
think with the sights or scope on the bbl, they must hold POI pretty well or people would
find the whole switch barrel concept pretty pointless.

uscra112 - Yes, that is the correct rifle in the pix and exploded views. Maybe getting a takeoff
bbl from a 10-22, which the world seems awash in, would be a good start. So it is strong enough
for center fire .32s. That sounds kind of interesting, too. So you make a longer link to move the
firing pin to the center and then install a barrel and you are set. I would think that a .32 S&W would
really smack squirrels and rabbits. Of course, so does a .22 LR, really.

Actually, if I set up the 10-22 bbl in a spin indexer with a tailstock on my friends Bridgeport table, I
could make it octagonal without a huge amount of work. Due to taper, probably half octagonal, half
round would work better.

Bill

[Tatume]

Hmm. With the sights mounted on the barrel, why would the POI change with removing and
replacing the barrel? It would seem to be like a Contender, and while I never owned one, I
think with the sights or scope on the bbl, they must hold POI pretty well or people would
find the whole switch barrel concept pretty pointless.

Hi Bill,

There's a lot of difference between a rifle made around 1900 and a modern switch-barrel gun. Point of impact changes for more reasons than just sight alignment. I have a very fine target rifle that will change point of impact if I change the tension on the middle bedding screw, and for that reason I use a torque wrench when reassembling it. Also, notice the ads for some of the best switch-barrel guns, that claim point of impact will change less than an inch upon reassembly. That's now, but in 1900 they didn't have the tooling to make that level of precision. Now consider a couple of inches, the size of a squirrel head, and someone who won't eat if the squirrel is missed. Also consider that ammo wasn't always easy to come by. When I was a boy I got two 22 cartridges every time I brought a small game animal home.

My Stevens Favorite has been in my family since it was new. I guarantee my ancestors knew the barrel could be removed. They didn't remove it, and my guess is because they expected the point of impact to change.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Take care, Tom

[MtGun44]

Well, once I get it up and running, I'll test it. Since the forend is screwed onto the bbl
and does not touch the action, I tend to think that POI will be unaffected. BUT as I
say to others - only Mr. Target knows the real answer!

Bill

[Janoosh]

I am always amazed at the amount of work put into these firearms in what is called a "Boy's rifle". Switch barrel, tang drilled and tapped, quality sights. Both my H+A 932 and 925 juniors are fitted out the same. And unfortunately ammo unavailable for both.

[uscra112]

Just for the record, the Stevens Model 44 and 44 1/2 rifles had takedown barrels, threaded in by hand and locked with a screw like the H&A. Many, many Schuetzen shooters did stellar work with those rifles, off hand at 200 yards, and modern Schuetzen shooters are still doing it. The secret is that the length of the shank engaged in the frame has an aspect ratio (length to diameter) of 3:1 or better. Winchesters and Savage never learned this, and their takedowns had aspect ratios more like 1:1. No wonder they didn't shoot well.

Janoosh, there's a thread going in the Rimfire section on making ammo for the .25 and .32 rimfires. It's very long, but there's some good ideas here. I'm currently making a swage to put a .251 heel on standard .258 boolits, so they can be used in a .25 rimfire that was made on a .25-20 SS barrel. Cases are modified Hornets. Prototypes have been made and do work.

For the .32s they are using .32 S&W longs swaged down to .32 Colt dimensions, (easy to do in a standard loading press), bored out in the rear for .27 caliber powder-actuated-tool loads.

[Janoosh]

Uscra112..Thank you for that info... I am aware of that thread and it is very interesting and a good read. 32 colt brass is not a problem for me as I have.a Stevens tip-up in 32 colt and bought brass when it was cheap. ( Although I really believe that the firearm is chambered in 32 long).
My H+A 925 Junior is in better condition than my 932 and I will experiment with those loadings this summer. If it ever stops snowing and warms up again.

[uscra112]

+1000 on the bloody snow ! We got teased with 3 straight days of 50 degrees, it all melted, and than two nights ago it came back and has been below zero at night.

[MtGun44]

uscra112,

Can you post an image of the handguard screw for a 922? Mine is sheared off, and I have measured the
metal socket in the handguard to make a new screw (once I get the stub out!) but would like to at least
SEE one before I make it.

Thanks for all the good info. Gun is clean and much nicer but bore it still trash. Have the drill in hand, will order
the liner soon. Will be a month or more before I get to it.

Bill

[uscra112]

Bill:

I assume you mean the forearm retention screw.

The screw from my 932:

Checked the thread with an 8-32 nut - it's definitely 8-32. Crown of the head is actually slightly convex. Didn't notice until after I'd done the sketch. Inside the forearm I found a 1/16" layer of sheet cork!

98868

Phil

[MtGun44]

I got the piece out and it measures .153, but what I thought was
an 8-32 screw will not go in, and measures about .161 or so, at least
the one I grabbed from a misc screw jug and THOUGHT was an
8-32 - definitely 32 pitch, and bigger than a #6. A 6-32 goes in nicely
but is loose at about .140 - - - I forget that dimension, it was definitely
too small but the right pitch. Maybe what I grabbed was not really
an 8-32.

Thanks for the drawing, I will turn the right thread on the lathe and
then cut the head to those dimensions. I appreciate your help.

Bill

[uscra112]

I assume you will run a 8-32 tap into the hole? Cutting an undersize screw would seem to me to be carrying fidelity to the original a little too far.....:)