Packing powder tight

[abunaitoo]

Looking for suggestions on how to pack black powder tight into a paper case.
Loading for a needle gun. The powder has to be packed tight so the cartridge will not collaps.
I've tried a long drop tube...Not tight enough.
Made a case vibrator......Still not tight enough.
I've vibrated it then tapped it down.....Ended up with hollow/loose space.
The way I'm doing it now is tapping down the powder 20 gr at a time. Slow but seems to work.
Also it sometimes still has hollow/loose spaces.
Any suggestions????

[Nobade]

How about making up some tooling similar to what you'd use for ramming rocket engines? On a needle gun, the primer is in the front near the bullets isn't it? So you would need a small hole through the whole thing? Or am I all wet?

-Nobade

[Janoosh]

Perhaps a shotshell resizer, using a straw for a central hole, and a modified ram? There are older Mec presses out there for paper shotshells that can be modified. Or even a Lachmiller shell resizer. Lots of people here with the tooling to help.

[StrawHat]

Make a chamber to hold the paper so you can get good compression? A bit more info, what rifle, might help us.

[Starvnhuntr]

i don't know if I'm getting the right picture but what coes to my mind would be something like a bullet oops boolit mold to cradle the paper in.

[abunaitoo]

I'm loading for a Chassepot.
The primer is a the rear of the paper cartridge. It's a tophat musket cap.
The whole thing need to be stiff. If I don't get it stiff enough, the primer will not go off. It gets pushed in just enough to not go off.
The tapping down of the powder works good, but is very inconsistant. The level of the powder varies. I tap it the same number of times, and try to doit with the same force. But it just never settles to the same level with consistency. I add corn meal to make up the space.
I've found that FFF works better than FF. It seems the smaller grains pack more evenly.
Just wondering how brass cartridge reloaders get consistancy in their casses.

[Dan Cash]

Just wondering how brass cartridge reloaders get consistancy in their casses.
We use a compression die that rams the propellant. As strawhat suggested, make a chamber that will fit your paper cartridge. Bore a centrol hole in the bottom of the chamber to accept the stem of a plunger that will sit in the bottom of the chamber; the stem projects out the bottom to eject the compressed paper cartridge. Turn the bottom of the chamber so that it will fit in a loading press. Check with Buffalo Arms for a compression plug to fit your cartridge diameter. If one is not available, you can see what the tool looks like and make one.

The chamber should be bored with a little draft so that the open end is slightly larger than the bottom. (Excuse me if you are a machinist.) If the base of the chamber with the plunger is bored like the primer pocket of a rifle cartridge, the priming arm on your press would engage the stem of the plunger and eject the compressed cartridge. In use, insert the paper cartridge in your chamber, add the powdercharge and rais the ram so that the compression plug compress the charge as desired. I guarantee that the compressed black powder will be like a stick of wood.

I don't understand your comment about the top hat primer. How is it attached?

[country gent]

A cup might be made to support the paper cartridge on the ram. a compression stem or die could be made to compress the powder charge into place. The "cup would need to be id bored to dia cartridge was to finish at or a few thou smaller. A stem turned .010 smaller than cartridge id with a very small radious to compress powder to depth desired. Alot of compression can be produced in this manner more than the paper can probably hold up to. Made up in the right manner the cup will clip into the press ram and the stem would screw into the 7/8 14 press threads. An ejector could be turned up to use a primer arm as an ejector possibly.
Some use a drop tube to get the powder into the case and compress the last little bit with the bullets seating. Some use a compression die and compress with a card wad on top of the powder. 3f will have smaller / fewer air pockets between the grains due to smaller grain size than 2f.
Dimensions of the finished paper cartridge would be helpfull also

[Lead pot]

It can be done.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/compressedpowder002.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/compressedpowder002.jpg.html)

[mikeym1a]

How long of a drop tube did you use? I've read they need to be 2ft - 3ft long. Does your cartridge use combustible paper? Don't know anything about the cartridge, but, about 3 layers of paper should make it pretty stiff. If the BP is compressed too tight, won't that affect how it burns? Interesting question.

[abunaitoo]

Thank you for the suggestions.
The top hat primer is gluded to a round paper. This fits into the bottom of the paper case, with the open side out. This way the needle pokes through the paper and strikes the primer in the cap.
I put a little FFFF in the cup to help ignition.
I have made a tube to hold the paper case. I'm guessing I can make it fit a shell holder. Take a ram to fit where the dies goes to compress the powder charge.
One more project on the list.
Is this fun or what????

[bigted]

don't know ... need pictures to wrap my minds eye around what your talking about. sounds interesting and im like Lead Pot ... my compressed powder can be as stiff as wood and plenty strong but ... I do NOT follow what is required at all. I don't get where the primer is located nor how the "cartridge" is loaded nor what the firearm looks like ... especially the breech area.

does sound like a fun project tho.

[Lead pot]

A few years back I was looking for pinfire caps holders and I found some of these at Dixie. You might look there. It would make shooting the old pinfire a little easier. Might even give you an idea how to make some out of pistol cases.
http://hlebooks.com/pinfire/pin01.htm

[StrawHat]

Link to a sketch of the cartridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Compare_Dreyse-Chsassepot.JPG

[bigted]

interesting. I should think a feller with just a few tools would be able to construct a "die" that would except the wrapped boolit with the paper tail in full diameter so as to install the powder ... then to obtain a "punch" that has been ground/machined with a "tit" on it so as to compress the powder with an indention that the cap would set in ... followed by the folding over of the paper to contain the whole smear. should be able to find a Lee die that could be 'converted' to what you need and then a 'punch' that will attach to the press and thusely the die would be on the ram ... and ... the punch ...[maybe a grade 8 bolt the same thread as the press]... would then mount in the die hole portion of the press.

the compressed powder then would ... after pressing and compressing ... be a stiff column that has the "primer" installed so as to retain the more solid column of wrapped powder and primer.

sounds like a fun project to me as well. good luck and I look forward to photo's of both the rifle and the tool for arriving at the final product.

Strawhat ... thankyou for the link to the drawing. it made the subject a visible reality for me as I could not wrap my mind around what was required.

[Mike Malat]

Here's a video that someone put together on reloading the round. It stuck in my mind because it was so unique. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi47hIRi3b0