MOA Shooter - .30 HBC

[w30wcf]

MOA Shooter,

I tried to respond to your private message regarding the .30 HBC but apparently your account is not set up to receive private messages.

Anyway, I haven't shot any more of these bullets since my post on the old board. Too many other projects I'm having fun with .....32 Colt 1892 Marlin, .22 W.C.F. & .44 W.C.F. b.p. & smokeless tests, .30-30 311041-125 gr. version......

As you might have read, I used a capacity load of H414 to get to 2,000 f.p.s. with HTWW bullets which produced the best accuracy at a little less than 2 m.o.a. Interestingly the accuracy stayed pretty much 2 m.o.a. out to the 500 meter ram target, which indicates good stability.

To be honest, I only tried H414 to attain 2,000 fps because of its ability to produce m.o.a. groups in my 788 .30-30's with bullets like ....311644, 311299, 311284....

Maybe in 2006 I will try some different combinations to try to improve the accuracy. If I'm successful, I'll let you know.

w30wcf

[MOA Shooter]

Thanks for a most interesting post John.

That 2000 fps is in a 30/30? Did you figure bullet drop at that loading?

MOA.

[w30wcf]

MOA Shooter,

Yes, I tried it in one of my .30-30 Rem 788's. It has a 22" barrel with a 1 in 10" twist.

If I want to go faster than 2,000 fps, I switch to 748, particularly with the 311299 bullet (208 grs. in w.w.+2% heat treated).

One 748 load I use with that bullet does a little over 2,200 f.p.s. Next time I load the .30 HBC, I'll try 5 with the 748 load to see what happens.

As I recall, I shot both the .30 HBC and 311299 at 500 meters (2,000 f.p.s.) and I know that the .30 HBC required somewhat less elevation....I'm thinking around 3 minutes.....I'll check to be sure.....hopefully I still have the data.

w30wcf

[MOA Shooter]

MOA Shooter,

Yes, I tried it in one of my .30-30 Rem 788's. It has a 22" barrel with a 1 in 10" twist.

If I want to go faster than 2,000 fps, I switch to 748, particularly with the 311299 bullet (208 grs. in w.w.+2% heat treated).

One 748 load I use with that bullet does a little over 2,200 f.p.s. Next time I load the .30 HBC, I'll try 5 with the 748 load to see what happens.

As I recall, I shot both the .30 HBC and 311299 at 500 meters (2,000 f.p.s.) and I know that the .30 HBC required somewhat less elevation....I'm thinking around 3 minutes.....I'll check to be sure.....hopefully I still have the data.

w30wcf


Running 2000 fps and requiring 3 less MOA for elevation that puts the HBC at .500 Ballistic Coefficent.


MOA.

[Maven]

MOA Shooter, For what it's worth, I tried the .30HBC a few times and got close to m.o.a. accuracy from my .30-06 and twice that from an "as-issued" K-31. That's the good news. The bad news is that I got that performance at fairly low velocities: 1,389fps (chronographed) in the K-31 and perhaps that (too lazy to chrono. that day) in the '06. In both rifles, the powder charge was 15gr. WC 820 (thrown), but the CB's were sized to .309" and .310", respectively. I intend to retest the .30HBC in my .30-06 (Mod. 70 Win.) @ .310" and .311" with the same powder, but at 16gr. (same accuracy as 15gr.), but accuracy disappeared at 18.5gr. (~1,600fps). Assuming I want to push those CB's no faster than 1,750fps (in the '06), should I use a slower powder? (IMR 5010 is the slowest I have. 47gr. + 1cc Bf will -> 1,750fps) Heat-treat the bullets? Use a harder lube (been using Felix Lube)?

[w30wcf]

Maven,

My best results in my limited testing came with heat treated bullets. Bullets made from a 18 b.h.n. alloy shot groups 1/3 larger at 1,800 f.p.s. in a 10" twist 788 .30-30. Same was true @ 2,000 f.p.s.

It would be interesting to try slower powders in the '06 as well to see if that would have a positive effect. I used H414 in the .30-30 which is on the slower side for that cartridge.

Good luck,

w30wcf

[Willbird]

MOA,

I re-read that and I think he means it required 3moa less ELEVATION.......not 3moa total


Bill

[StarMetal]

Maven,

Just for the heck of it why don't you try that 30 HBC in one of your SKS's.

Joe

[Maven]

John, Your comments about heat-treatment & slower powder are worth trying. I've got enough IMR 5010 left to try this.

Joe, The .30HBC would be a nice match for my SKS (only have a Type 56) except that it casts too small to suit it. However, the SKS seems to tolerate a great variety of CB weights & designs (at least mine does) as long as they're sized to fit the bore (.314" in my Type 56).

[StarMetal]

Maven

I believe my Yugo SKS is .310. I don't have the HBC mould. I'd like to try some samples in my CZ 30-06, Finn 39, and Yugo SKS if someone were so kind to send me a few. I'm curious now as to if we can get it to high velocity accurately.

Joe

[w30wcf]

willbird,

With the 311299 having a b.c. of .379 (Lyman Info), and the .30HBC requiring about 3 m.o.a. less elevation , (as MOA Shooter indicated), @ 500, the b.c. of the .30 HBC works out to be around .50.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[Willbird]

Gotcha, that sounded like such a high BC right off hand I tought you were calculating it as 3moa total drop.

Bill

[MOA Shooter]

MOA Shooter, For what it's worth, I tried the .30HBC a few times and got close to m.o.a. accuracy from my .30-06 and twice that from an "as-issued" K-31. That's the good news. The bad news is that I got that performance at fairly low velocities: 1,389fps (chronographed) in the K-31 and perhaps that (too lazy to chrono. that day) in the '06. In both rifles, the powder charge was 15gr. WC 820 (thrown), but the CB's were sized to .309" and .310", respectively. I intend to retest the .30HBC in my .30-06 (Mod. 70 Win.) @ .310" and .311" with the same powder, but at 16gr. (same accuracy as 15gr.), but accuracy disappeared at 18.5gr. (~1,600fps). Assuming I want to push those CB's no faster than 1,750fps (in the '06), should I use a slower powder? (IMR 5010 is the slowest I have. 47gr. + 1cc Bf will -> 1,750fps) Heat-treat the bullets? Use a harder lube (been using Felix Lube)?

The things that jump out at me after reading Aladdin's testing of flight efficent bullets:

Hard. Heat treat.

At least two thou over groove. He started out using unsized.

Being a non training wheels design, that long hood HAS to be looking down the exact center of the bore when chambered. Non bore riders magnify all your machining defects and loading errors. Same for bullet prep.

My archived notes show powder speeds used from Blue Dot, 2400 and up with his prototype. Aliant 22 and 7828 for the highest possible speeds with accuracy.

I have to think another consideration is the shear length of that bullet. At 1.25" and around half of it hood it has to be easy for a loader to bend getting it into the barrel NOT treated at ignition.

John's running 2000 fps with this 200 gr spitzer from a 30/30 with 2 MOA to 500 meters. Now 10" groups or so at that range ain't too bad. With a .500 BC it has to be FUN!

I hesitate to call it an expert's bullet. IE-- having all your ducks in a row with all the i's dotted and t's crossed. But NO flight efficent bullet is going to be self aligning like a bore rider.


MOA.

[felix]

The accelleration of the boolit cannot be such that the long, relatively thin, nose/point of the boolit slumps the boolit to be off balance. Yes, the point of such a boolit must be dead center at and during ignition. Hopefully, the nose keeps that same shape entirely down the bore. Must always keep in mind that the lead molecules are mashed to the rearward direction during accelleration, and once a molecule gives up its stationary position, a chain reaction occurs. Pointed boolits are indeed the most challenging shape, and should be avoided for the most part when up-front accuracy is paramount, meaning little or no load development. ... felix

[Bob S]

The C1 coefficient for the Sierra 175 grain MK in the 2800-1800 fps regime is only .496. The Berger VLD is slightly over .5 in the same velocity regime. I don't believe the flat-base HBC bullet, with the drag-inducing lube grooves and gas check can achieve .5 in the same velocity regime. I would need to see the calculations.

I have a bunch cast up in lino, but no time to "play" as all of my range time is going to be in matches for awhile.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[carpetman]

MOA---You have been around almost a month and have researched everything "Aladdin" wrote. How did you do all that research spelling his name wrong,and still spell it incorrectly? I know you said you are not Aladdin. But it was said your IP shows you to be Jay from Wisconsin what an amazing coincident. In your posts you keep fishing for someone to brag on "Aladdin",so I will. Aladin got his PHd---actually he was teaching the professors. His shooting skills were such that he daily broke all world records. Then he got even better. He designed such great bullets that he shattered his own world shattering records. All the bullet companies are after him. All the mold makers are trying to get him. All the gun rags want him. He and his agent are so busy checking out the offers that he no longer can give autographs for his multitude of fans that flock to him everywhere he goes. He cant give autographs,but as far as I know,still works his telemarketer job. He has had to hire extra bodyguards and all his limo drivers are armed. Out behind his mothers house where he lives(lives with his mother)they had to build a huge complex to house all the bodyguards---the protection of the president(secret service SS)is much the same except SS is much smaller scale. As you can imagine,all the forums suffered greatly when he quit posting. What a loss---in your infamous "why is this board dead"?,you stated all the ones in the know moved off the board. Yes without him ALL boards became training wheel boards at best. Someday he might invent a gun that shoots bs without splattering. He has that much potential.

[Oldfeller]

Aladin's greatest accomplishment was to become an instant gunsmith/gunwriter on all calibers and cartridges in all rifles and all handguns -- while only owning (1) Reminton 700 in 30-06 caliber and one (1) H&R break action rifle 45-70 and no (0) pistols of any kind. Aladin freely substituted his arrogant opinions instead of any sort of data or experience – sad thing is that it all looks the same on a computer screen and it apparently fooled some newbies.

My all time favorite was Aladin insisting that somebody hurry up & go shoot a hole in their swimmng pool liner with a 6.5x55 Swede as he was sure it would stop in 4-6 feet of water if fired at "high speed". Facts contrary to his "expert opinions" certainly never slowed him down any, nor did multiple real experts (who actually owned the gun and the molds) telling him he was full of fresh fragrant field fertilzer.

Actually, it just caused him to yell all the louder. Aladin lived to “debate” and would take any side (or different sides at different times).

He best liked to expound extensively on guns he had never owned and had never fired or reloaded for ....... but that lack certainly never slowed him down any.

He did some of his very best experimental work on guns he never owned.

Of course it is true he read extensively from standard sources, but once you realized what source he was reading from it was fun to go re-read his "expert opinion" and then give the source and correct his errors in remembering what he had just read and spewed forth.. I liked his rendition of Richard LEE Sr & Jr's swimming pool experiments with 30 caliber linotype & WW bullets, especially since he got his facts totally bass ackwards concerning the land stripping effects they reported off of the slower rifle powders (they reported that slow powders DID NOT STRIP at all while fast pistol powders did strip in when used in hcavy loadings.

The unfortunate mark of a really really green newbie was that they listened to Aladin and thought he was for real. His "expertise" was greatly admired by a very small group of lamp polishers (who probably owned about as many guns as Aladin did between them). He generally held forth his court on Accurate, which is why many of us abandoned the site as you couldn't post anything there without the resident genie popping up out of his bottle with his "expert opinions". Interesting to see that he is still there.

Aladin's challenged spelling while posting over here is easily explained, why if he spelled "Aladin" correctly then he would just be a simple uncomplicated liar now wouldn't he? Aladin is an expert at every thing he does, so Aladdin must have two "d"s – he can't be a simple uncomplicated liar (or anything else for that matter).

World class or nothing, that’s our Aladin.

And exactly how many little bottle genie clones do you think we currently have sitting here on our list right now? Who knows? Aladin was never stingy with his log-on names, so “several” would be a good historical guesstimate.

We will undoubtedly hear from some current Aladin Mini-Me clones shortly as they flock to their daddy's defense.

http://ubbsmile.free.fr/smileys/troll.gif

Also, please remember from his own words on Accurate, Aladin thinks you are all “over-lathered fools” and he does this little dance (his avitar as shown on Accurate) as he posts his drivel over on this list. He has nothing but scorn for you and thinks your efforts to be civilized to his latest clone are pathetic and laughable. Do it to keep up with our own list standards, but don’t be deceived by Alsdin’s oily smooth replies to your civility.

An example of his wonderful inconstency are his recent comments on PMs, when his last PM that he wrote to me was a very calm and urbane "AND GO **** YOURSELF !!!!" when I opted out of his ill conceived HBC project once he himself had successfully proven to us all that the ogive would slump if fired past 1,700 fps. So I missed having my money "run off with" by the bottle genie -- but I enjoyed it just the same.

Now he still needs to prove his bullet will actually shoot past 1,300 fps and I am really waiting to see how he manages to get people to verify his claims for 2,800 fps with less than MOA accuracy.

Aladin was a real piece of work for sure. Maybe MOA stands for More Offal Accordingly in Aladin-speak, so now his MOA Shooter moniker makes sense to us all.

Oldfeller

[Scrounger]

Seems I remember Aladin's experiments were carried out with his only gun, A Mossberg 810 or some such number. It is/was an all time turkey; I've seen one of those in my life. I'll bet most of you haven't seen any. A really bad gun that got the quick death it deserved.

[grumble]

I guess this is now the official "Bash Aladin" thread?

Aladin and I had a number of spirited discussions on several different subjects. We disagreed often, but I always enjoyed those discussions.

For those unable to bear opinions that oppose their own, I suppose he may have been a nuisance. IMHO, it takes pretty small people to lambast him now, for no particular reason other than to vent their own spleens.

[Scrounger]

I'm not bashing him, Grumble. He's gone now, at least in name and identity, and it wouldn't be right to bash him behind his back. Someone attributed him shooting with a different rifle than what I remembered, and I said so. Maybe I'm right, maybe he's right. Only Aladin would know for sure. And none of us really care. Aladin did send me a PM years ago on Shooters, chewing me out for an off topic post. Would I do that? But I harbor no ill feelings and I am not bashing him.

[carpetman]

Oldfeller---Just as amazing as his being able to tell you what a rifle that he had never laid his hands on would do was his scientific testing. He could give EXACT pressure readings,with no pressure equipment. Exact velocity with no chronograph. He was not that adept at BHN---it required equipment for that feat. He used a hammer(any experienced caster would know exact BHN)from just hitting it with a hammer. Certainly an expert that a "newbie" like MOA would pick out to research all his writings on the internet.

[waksupi]

Geez, Ray, be careful. You may bruise an ego. And it is a very large one to bruise. Who else keeps count on how many times people have viewed a topic? I don't know where a person finds a hat big enough to fit a head of that size. I figure that individual is maybe 25 years old, possibly younger. Mature people are beyond such things.

[Buckshot]

This is what I have in my address book for Aladdin's e-mail. No telling how old it is. Maybe someone should send him a message? aladin E-mail Address(es):
aladin@charter.net

I don't remember a bunch of this stuff you all are mentioning, but all the scientific leading edge stuff sometimes makes me weary, so I guess I didn't pay much attention to it. I did buy and get one of the moulds and haven't cast any up yet. It sure is a purdy boolity looking boolit.

............Buckshot

[Scrounger]

Sent Aladin an email this morn and low and behold an answer came back. Permission granted to post it. Here goes:

Hi Mike,

You found me with some time this am and in a generous mood. I haven't bothered with any of the shooting forums for what must be a couple yrs. No time nor inclination. The answers to your Q's:

1. The 200 30 HBC is a direct copy of the Speer 200 gr 30 cal bullet. This I made very plain. "Even a braindead like Carpetman coulda drew it" I think was my analogy. Onlyest difference was the transition area-- shortened for more bearing surface. TA= groove to non groove dia., around 70 thou in that design. Lube grooves were LBT inspired.

2. TWS. Humorous but very true. Understand by and large it's a decent group of old geezers would really know very little about making a gun shooten. The 'fun' of doing etc & killing time in route to the grave. Lighten up.

3. Your assertion per the "bullet designer". Look at it this way. Those guys are lucky to find a guy to draw them cad pics to send to Lee. Yes from what I saw back when those pics were just cut and paste, maybe changing calibers or a driver dimension. That might be enough often times. Live and let live.

4. Yes to cloning Ron Applegate's 45 cal spitzer design. It should make 2000 fps checked in 10 twist barrels. Now that IS a design. Sorry to hear Ron isn't cutting molds any longer........... A quality man.

5. Stirring the pot. So they think your me? Well have some civil fun with it is all I can say. No I do not care what they think either. Ignorance is bliss don't ya know.

Sure, forward this. I'll look for it someday when I get bored enough.

Be good,
A.

How can he insult one of our icons like that?

[carpetman]

MOA---What a crock. Starts out Mike---why would he call you that when your name is Jay? He signs off A---why would he do that when he too is Jay? Remember he is no longer using Aladin. Good try. How is your guitar playing going? You are singing the same old song but it still sounds like your G string is too tight.

[Oldfeller]

You gotta admit, it's a new technical wrinkle for Aladin though. Having a mini-me post back to the daddy troll so the daddy can say whatever he wants to us (and then the mini-me is just guilty of "carrying the message") is sorta convoluted -- but it is a new trick for Aladin. I don't think he's done that before.

I think Ray was right on the money and MOA's response just verifies another pellet hit.

Aladin DOES get to troll-laugh at us a lot you know. Trying to be civil and urbane when dealing with such is sort of like feeding them attention.

When you get raccons in the attic you don't feed the raccoons, you just do your best to block them off -- and if they keep on coming back you may just have to shoot them.

Feeding them makes it worse, not better.

Oldfeller

PS -- to the technical minded amoung us ...... how do you spot a troll? Aladin got caught this time by using his home IP address -- isn't there some sort of anti-spam software that automatically sorts out trolls and their mini-me's by some sort of source information? I'd donate $5 towards the purchase of such-like software for the list.

[Buckshot]

...........Interesting. But this is all worth..........what? I'd really raher read about someone getting an old beater 1888 Commission running again then this other stuff.

However, if some use is coming of it, by all means please continue. So far not an issue but lets continue to keep the language in check and try not to be too nasty to each other.

..............Buckshot

[trk]

The accelleration of the boolit cannot be such that the long, relatively thin, nose/point of the boolit slumps the boolit to be off balance. Yes, the point of such a boolit must be dead center at and during ignition. Hopefully, the nose keeps that same shape entirely down the bore. Must always keep in mind that the lead molecules are mashed to the rearward direction during accelleration, and once a molecule gives up its stationary position, a chain reaction occurs. Pointed boolits are indeed the most challenging shape, and should be avoided for the most part when up-front accuracy is paramount, meaning little or no load development. ... felix

Felix -

Excellent point!

I noticed someone posted something about the nose punch leaving a mark on the bullet - caught my attention, but it wasn't until tonight (when I cast up some and tried seating a gas check (.311 diameter die). The bullet slumped just under the pressure of sizing! This enlarged the nose, letting the nose punch mark it (which it wouldn't have if the bullet hadn't been so soft).

So I tried oven-heating and quenching. I'll know soon if the alloy is hard enough to try. If not it'll be another week or so to get back to it.

[waksupi]

TRK, i had the nose bumping problem when I started in with the .358 Win. Couldn't figure out what seating depth was so far in the case, with a long throat. Went to a Lee push through die, and eliminated the problem

[C1PNR]

Just what I was thinking. A Lee push through to size and seat the gas check, and then lube in same size, or slightly larger, Lyman/RCBS die.

I'm afraid I'll have to do this extra step with some other designs as well.:groner:

[trk]

TRK, i had the nose bumping problem when I started in with the .358 Win. Couldn't figure out what seating depth was so far in the case, with a long throat. Went to a Lee push through die, and eliminated the problem

My concern is that on firing the shape will be changed, which will lower the BC as the shape of the nose was chosen to maximize it.

Perhaps why may folks have said HARD boolets are a key.

[trk]

Cleaning up the mould and using straight linotype metal resulted in much cleaner bullets, sizing problem (deforming) disappeared when sizing to .310". Will likely take out the 40x soon with several test loads. Working on reducing the runout (measured on side of bullet in loaded round) by adjusting loading techniques. Don't have it as good as I want yet.

[Buckshot]

Cleaning up the mould and using straight linotype metal resulted in much cleaner bullets, sizing problem (deforming) disappeared when sizing to .310". Will likely take out the 40x soon with several test loads. Working on reducing the runout (measured on side of bullet in loaded round) by adjusting loading techniques. Don't have it as good as I want yet.

With a slug like that, I agree that getting it pointed down the barrel straight would be a big plus. Are you going to measure casewall or neckwall thickness and orientate the cases?

..................Buckshot

[trk]

I've tried 2215br with no luck. Just started on one load of 4759 and got all 8 of 8 on a 3x5 at 50 yards. Not good, but the percentage improvement is amazing!

Pat I. had suggested taking a 30-06 and forming it to a .308 (7.62 Nato actually) to give a thicker neck to better position the bullet.

I have been measuring runout on the side of the bullet using a Neco fixture. Generally runs 1-2 thou for most with a few 3-6 thou TIR of the loaded round. My experience with the M14 and orienting is that it helps (and therefore should be done) but it was one of the minor influences. (Since the bullet is seated into the grooves.)

What has been good is that this has gotten me to the range many times interleaved with short sessions of reloading - educational - changing one thing at a time and refining my loading techniques.

Concurrently, I'm teaching a friend from work to shoot at 200, 300, 400 yards in prep for his trip out west this fall to go elk hunting. He's glass bedding his 1903 Springfield now, has ordered a good trigger for it and has been reading through my old field manuals on marksmanship and sniper training. In the process I've been loading for accuracy (J-boolets) and will soon be determining a load for his rifle that will do the job. When we're out praticing my objective is to get 5 of 5 on a 3x5 from the standing with sling postion with iron sights (for woodchuck hunting). I can do it at 50 yards, just need to get better. Then to be able to do that with CAST! Have done about as well with my P17 Winchester and M1A Springfield so far.