How many groves do you lube???

[SWANEEDB]

Somewhere some time ago I read where the NRA did a pretty good in depth study on the amount of lube groves to be filled, if I remember correctly they found out only one was needed, I think they were using a S&W mod 52 for one and got the best results with one filled, don't know how many other guns were tested, SO, I'm going after the pros & cons from the experts on this forum---Have at it ladies & gents.

[btroj]

I lube enough of them. The number depends on bullet design, lube, and application.

No set answer.

[osteodoc08]

I lube all the lube grooves present all the way to the crimp groove. That being said, most of mine have one groove, 2 at most. I may have one 357 heavy with 3 small grooves. But most have one large groove in a shape modeled after the famous Keith boolits.

[Ben]

Wouldn't it be better to let the pistol / revolver tell you how many ? ? ?

[Djones]

I keep it simple... All

[Larry Gibson]

I lube enough of them. The number depends on bullet design, lube, and application.

No set answer.

+1. Short, sweet and to the point.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Enough to lube the whole barrel.

[Forrest r]

Somewhere some time ago I read where the NRA did a pretty good in depth study on the amount of lube groves to be filled, if I remember correctly they found out only one was needed, I think they were using a S&W mod 52 for one and got the best results with one filled, don't know how many other guns were tested, SO, I'm going after the pros & cons from the experts on this forum---Have at it ladies & gents.

I believe you're talking about their 38spl wc tests. Back in the 80's to mid 90's I cast/shot tons of cast boolits from a 6 cavity h&g #50 mold.

I used nothing but soft lead (40 to 1 lead/tin 8bhn) air cooled
nra 50/50 lube.
2.7gr of bullseye with the bullet crimped/seated in the standard crimp groove for 38spls
3.2gr of ww452 with the bullet crimped/seated in the top emplty lube groove for 357's

I sized the bullets to .358 & lubed the only the bottom 2 lube grooves leaving the top lube groove empty. Either of these loads would produce bugholes (all bullets touching) @ 50ft in nra targets with the revolvers I used to use back then.

k-38 5 screw
colt target
2 586's
colt python

I still test wc/hbwc's to this day by filling the different lube grooves & testing different seating depths. A s&w 624 & cast hbwc's that I tested for it. The picture shows lube in 1 groove & 2 grooves along with tumble lubing and standard lube/tumble lube combo's. There's also test loads with the boolits seated flush to being moved out & seated in the different lube grooves.

98100

I did the same lube/seating tests with a cast hbwc for a s&w model 10 38spl.

98101

Some 38spl wc's loaded long to be used in 357 revolvers with custom 1 in 12 twist bbl's.

98102

Soft boolits @ target speeds that are sized properly don't need much lube. I've actually ran into problems accuracy wise with quality match bbl's & cast boolit designs that had a generous single lube groove. The groups would shrink with keeping everything the same except for changing to a lesser quality bullet lube.

forrest r

[Old School Big Bore]

I'll have to give you the standard OCS answer. Depends on the situation & terrain. Different applications blah blah yak yak. In my match revolvers I lube the bottom groove or two & crimp in the top grease groove so there's some shank to pilot in the throat.

[Bigslug]

I'm a very simple creature on this matter: if it's enclosed by brass when loaded, I lube it. If there's a crimp groove not being used and seated below the case mouth - as on a 452423 in a .45ACP, I'll usually lube that too.

I figure each lube band as its own separate gas seal. That seal can be compromised by irregularities in the bore, gaps/bubbles in the lube, bullets "compromise-sized" for multiple guns, etc... Lube is also helping as the bullet squishes around to fit the bore. Until I get a bug to science that out (may be a long time) I'll go with my gut feeling that consistency is easier to maintain in a lube flood than a lube drought.

[6bg6ga]

One should work nicely but out of habbit I lube them all just to be safe.

[Shiloh]

All of them.

Shiloh

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

So, to further the OP"S question-
How bout some of you "use just enough" answerer types
fill us in on how you go about determining, how much is enough?
Go on, I dare you

[1Shirt]

Ben as usual has it right!
1Shirt!

[Jack Stanley]

Just barely enough to leave a star at the muzzle without leaving lead along the tube anywhere . Use enough to produce good accuracy , at first try I'll use more lube and if accuracy is poor use less .

Jack

[GSM]

The OP is probably referring to an article prepared by Col. Harrison in an NRA publication. I think the testing showed that only 1 groove was necessary at target level loads and more than 1 groove actually had a negative effect after a short period (over lubricating). The lube that was found to be best, overall, was a 50/50 mix of beeswax and Alox (aka the NRA 50/50).

[mpbarry1]

I never considered lubing less than all of them available. It never occurred to me not too. Is there an advantage to less lube is some situations?

[wallenba]

All in my rifle boolits. My 38 wadcutter just gets one lubed. Helps keep the smoke down at an indoor, and with the light loads, it's enough. (Carnuba Red)

[TXGunNut]

So, to further the OP"S question-
How bout some of you "use just enough" answerer types
fill us in on how you go about determining, how much is enough?
Go on, I dare you

Fair question, Jim. Many of the boolits I use are tumble lube design so the correct answer for them is "all", at least for me and my guns. For my grease groove boolits I first determine COAL, since most of my loads are potentially hunting loads I like to keep the lube inside the case. The number of grease grooves inside the case becomes the maximum number of grooves to be filled. For a handgun I'll try one groove and if a lube star is present on the muzzle and there in little or no leading then one is all it needs. A rifle may require more lube.
The problem with such a simple question is that the answer has to deal with too many variables; lube type, lube groove capacity, number of lube grooves present, barrel length (and possibly condition), velocity and in some cases atmospheric conditions. The only possible answer is "enough", it's up to your gun to tell you how much is enough. If you would ask me how many grooves to lube on the Lyman 375449 boolit in a 375 Winchester in my 94 Big Bore I'd tell you I fill the bottom two grooves with SPG, but YMMV.

[btroj]

How do we know?

We test. We experiment. We lube more or less and see what happens on paper.

Is it that difficult to try different things and see what works? Isn't that what hand loading is all about?

[butch2570]

I lube enough of them. The number depends on bullet design, lube, and application.

No set answer.

IT's amazing to me that some people come here to find knowledge about " this art " that we've all become addicted too, because we realize that there is NO BETTER knowledge to be had than by trial and error, and that being from you "veteran casters" whom have already been there and done that. The O P asked a question for the EXPERTS, veterans, the men that have more knowledge about this than he himself does, and to get a vague answer like :I lube enough of them depends on bullet design, lube ,and application. That is not the most helpful info , would explaining that in some detail not be more helpful ? or at least refer him to another post with more detailed info be better? I have been surfing these posts for a month now and there are lots of answers i can't find.. But considering i work 6 days a week, 11.5 hrs a day and drive a hour and twenty minutes each way, that leaves very little time for searching thousands of old posts, as i'm sure there are lots of other newer to casting guys in the same boat here.I have read lots of posts where you have given invaluable help ,this one lacks..

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

How do we know?

We test. We experiment. We lube more or less and see what happens on paper.

Is it that difficult to try different things and see what works? Isn't that what hand loading is all about?

No, it is not difficult, providing you have an idea what you're doing! The UN-enlightened among us including myself,
read bits and pieces here and there, but I have never seen an "article" on lubing. When I began casting, I just figured
that it has lube grooves, it needs to have them all filled. Why else would they be there? Not so!

[btroj]

Well, I am no expert but I have been shooting long enough to know that the source of real knowledge lies not in the internet but in personal experience.

Those here with far more knowledge than myself got that knowledge the old fashioned way, they earned it. They fired tens of thousands of rounds. The shot many guns, lube, and bullets. They made observations, tried different things, and determined what worked IN THEIR GUNS.

My suggestion to ALL casters is the same. You will learn far more at a casting, loading, and shooting bench than you will ever learn at a computer bench.

[butch2570]

Well, I am no expert but I have been shooting long enough to know that the source of real knowledge lies not in the internet but in personal experience.

Those here with far more knowledge than myself got that knowledge the old fashioned way, they earned it. They fired tens of thousands of rounds. The shot many guns, lube, and bullets. They made observations, tried different things, and determined what worked IN THEIR GUNS.

My suggestion to ALL casters is the same. You will learn far more at a casting, loading, and shooting bench than you will ever learn at a computer bench.

Different times now, i've been handloading since 88 , shooting cast in my 44 and 357 for 5 or 6 years, dabbling with casting for about a year now , the availability of componets ,the price of powder being what it is 28 -35 dollars a pound here , you can't just waste things if you can't dependably replace them. That's why you're seeing so many noobies here, because you can't just waste things now ,

[btroj]

How is learning a waste?

Totally different mindset I suppose.

[TXGunNut]

You will learn far more at a casting, loading, and shooting bench than you will ever learn at a computer bench.-btroj

So true, lots more fun too! Like many folks here I started loading long before Al Gore invented the internet so I learned to enjoy my hobby the old fashioned way with hundreds of hours reading loading manuals and articles followed by countless hours at the loading bench and the range. Sometimes a specific question about a specific situation is more easily answered on a forum but if I could get all my questions answered easily I would have found another hobby years ago.
Gathering info from books and other sources is all theoretical, hard data are only gained by casting, loading, shooting and measuring the results. From these data we can learn the only answer that really matters.

[Elkins45]

My usual practice is to lube all, unless its a multi-groove design like a Loverin. In that case I do the bottom 3-4 as a starting point. If I start to see purge flyers in rifles or make a greasy mess in handguns then I will back off.

If at all possible I try to shoot tumble lube in handguns, so the answer there is "all".

[hickfu]

I Lube every groove but Im sure I could leave the top one bare on this one...

98171


Doc

[butch2570]

Learning is not a waste , But if you are one of the guys that has a limited supply with no hopes of replacing it at the time being are you going to waste yours? I have plenty of powder but some do not , I can assure you if you only had 2 1 lb cans of unique for your pistols , right NOW you had better not waste it until things settle down. Your'e not talking to a noobie in handloading , casting yes. I couldn't tell you the pounds or rX 7, Blue dot ,herco unique,4350, 4756 , h 380, h4895,4064,800 x,h335,the thousands of jacketed bullets i' ve wasted when learning about penetration, expansion and bullet drop at long range . That's another thing i respectfully disagree with , i could set a shooting bench for a year with a hand full of guns and componets and there is NO way I could get more knowledge than reading what hundreds of guys with 20,30,40,years of trial and error have with thousands of different guns ,powders,primers and different alloys have written down on this forum, in a week..Evalution of loads and componets is a MUST ,i agree ,but why not read the results from you older guys on what MAY or MAY NOT work , before hand and get some base knowledge, I guess before the computer came about that's why we bought books..

[btroj]

Butch, ever notice how many people here get good results with different approaches? Maybe it is because there is NOT one single solution.

Larry Gibson uses Alox with good results and likes Lyman moulds. Ben uses Bens red. Many use CR, Felix, or LBT. All of those lubes work yet some love one, hate another. What does that tell you? Try to get Geargnasher or 44man to use Alox, it won't be pretty.

What makes people think they can learn in a few moments online what others learned over decades of experience?

[kryogen]

i powdercoat I dont lube the grooves

[leftiye]

I never considered lubing less than all of them available. It never occurred to me not too. Is there an advantage to less lube is some situations?

Two that I can think of. With some lubes you'll get fliers as the lube builds up in the barrel and then purges. These are mainly oily lubes. If you have a wet lube star, purging could be coming. The other is that any lube that builds up on the bore can (probly will) cause problems with deposits (deforming boolits, and causing blowby), especially in cold temperatures. So, try to have a bore coated enough to give good accuracy and not more. There are a number of lube ingredients that leave carp in the bore that you might want to avoid. See Ultimate Lube thread, simple lube thread, 357 Maximum lube thread, etc..

[butch2570]

Butch, ever notice how many people here get good results with different approaches? Maybe it is because there is NOT one single solution.

Larry Gibson uses Alox with good results and likes Lyman moulds. Ben uses Bens red. Many use CR, Felix, or LBT. All of those lubes work yet some love one, hate another. What does that tell you? Try to get Geargnasher or 44man to use Alox, it won't be pretty.

What makes people think they can learn in a few moments online what others learned over decades of experience?

very very true, i mean no disrespect to you at all , but if could give someone a answer to a question i would give a informative one if possible without leaving holes for the OP to read in between the lines.. I really thought that was the purpose ,to come here and share experiences THAT took decades for everyone to learn. But then again we're all not on Larry's ,gear's ,or Felix's level either.

[Beagle333]

I agree with the NRA..... one.
One big ol' fat one!
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/cast%20boolits/PC005_zpsf18935cd.jpg

[btroj]

Butch, we can answer questions all day long but at some point a guy has to get out and shoot.

Asking how many grooves to lube is a question that is far to open ended.

If a guy asked how many grooves to lube on a 38 wad cutter for 38 special target loads it is simple, one.

Asking how many to lube on a 30 cal Loverin design is another question entirely.

Ask specific questions to get specific answers. Vague questions get vague answers.

It depends so much on alloy, gun, pressure, bullet design, lube, and weather conditions. Understanding how those factors change things is where experience pays off.

[butch2570]

Butch, we can answer questions all day long but at some point a guy has to get out and shoot.

Asking how many grooves to lube is a question that is far to open ended.

If a guy asked how many grooves to lube on a 38 wad cutter for 38 special target loads it is simple, one.

Asking how many to lube on a 30 cal Loverin design is another question entirely.

Ask specific questions to get specific answers. Vague questions get vague answers.

It depends so much on alloy, gun, pressure, bullet design, lube, and weather conditions. Understanding how those factors change things is where experience pays off.
EXACTLY : That's the kind of answer the guys new to handloading/ casting can relate too. I hope the next UPS truck that comes to your door brings you a wheel barrow load of your favorite powder .. :wink:have a nice day

[Elkins45]

I agree with the NRA..... one.
One big ol' fat one!
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/cast%20boolits/PC005_zpsf18935cd.jpg

What is that boolet? Is that the collar button from MP?

[sthwestvictoria]

Depends how many grooves I have been able to purchase from Waksupi that month.







...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?24972-Loob-grooves-for-sale

[Beagle333]

What is that boolet? Is that the collar button from MP?
Yes, it is. 8-)

[btroj]

No, that is a lube eating machine. I have never seen a groove that deep.

[MT Gianni]

Col. Harrison's excellent book Cast Bullets from the 50's showed an experiment with a 4 groove old and 38 wadcutters. Accuracy was best with one groove lubed and worst with all 4. I have experimented some with some bullets and found it is dependent on the lube used, as well as velocity and bbl length. An easy way is to look at your lube star, see when it appears and how heavy it gets. If it is heavy after 25 shots you may be lube purging and accuracy might improve by cutting it back. I try with a rifle and a louverin style to only lube what is inside the brass but will cut things back a groove when I have a good load if my lube star appears too soon or looks to be heavy. This unfortunately for me does not carry over for different bore sizes. I believe it can improve a good group but will do little to rescue a poor one.