32 Winchester Special Casting

[compass will]

First off, thanks for this great resource; I am already learning a lot before I get started.

Anyway, I am hoping to cast some boolits for a .32 special that will feed an early 20's vintage model 93 Marlin. I want to use it for lever action silhouette. I understand this caliber uses .321 jacketed boolits, but I hear I want be around .002" larger for lead. Therefore, I am looking for .323.

Lee has a .324 for the 8mm at 175 grain, but it’s a round tip. I understand I am not supposed to use round tips in a tube magazine, so here is my question.

Can I just build a jig to shave off the nose of the boolet to make it a flat tip? Better yet, modify the mold tip?
On the other hand, is a soft lead round top not a problem in a tube mag?

I see Lyman makes a .322 mold for the 32-40. Some have recommended the RCBS mold but the books show it as a .321, ain't that to small for what I want?

All I will do is shoot steel varmints with these boolits :Fire:


Thanks ahead of time
Compass Wil

[sundog]

The RCBS boolit is correct for the 32 Spl, to which all others should be compared. If you find it to small, which more than likely not, it can always be beagled.

[hydraulic]

Round nose cast bullets are OK to use in tubular magazines. I have an 8mm Ideal 323470 that I size .325 in my Model 8 .32 Remington. The 323470 is a Loverin design.

[NVcurmudgeon]

You can also use a flat point top punch to put a flat on a RN boolit as you size it.

[jtaylor1960]

The RCBS bullet shoots very well out of my 32.They make the 8-170-FN which is special order and looks identical to the 32 bullet but it is .323 in diameter.I have a NEI mold that casts a 195gr. bullet that should be good also.

[compass will]

The RCBS bullet shoots very well out of my 32.They make the 8-170-FN which is special order and looks identical to the 32 bullet but it is .323 in diameter.I have a NEI mold that casts a 195gr. bullet that should be good also.
When you say the RCBS works well, which one are you using? The 32-170-FN or the 8-170-FN?

[IcerUSA]

If you want to try the Lyman 319247 165gn FN PB let me know and I'll send a few for you to try, my mould drops boolits at .321 and it dosn't do too bad out of my 1952 vintage Marlin 336 with Ballard rifleing .

Keith

[MTWeatherman]

As Sundog has already said...the RCBS 32-170-FN is the standard by which other bullets are judged. It would be a pretty tough bullet to improve on. Mine actually weighs closer to 180 grs and drops at just under .323. However, I use the .321 sizer which is near groove diameter in my .32 Special and it works very well.

I have the Lee 175 gr. bullet and Lyman 323470 in the 8mm. If you want a flat point for either and have a lubrisizer, it can be accomplished rather easily by using the RCBS 550 top punch designed for their bullet. Just use the punch shortly after casting while the bullets are relatively soft and give them an extra bump when they bottom out. Works very well for the 323470 as the countour of the bullet nose allows the top punch to center the bullet pretty well when resizing and bumping. With the Lee, I start the bullet into the sizer with the punch...then lift the handle to make sure I have the punch centered on the bullet nose...nose design on the Lee makes centering less automatic. That Lyman bullet minus the gas check works pretty well for "plinker" loads...never saw the need for that .32-40 PB bullet.

I no longer use the Lee bullet in my .32...didn't match the RCBS for full performance or the Lyman for plinking.

If you want to invest in a single mould that will allow you to take full advantage of that .32 you need a gas check. You could likely make the Lee work if you have a lubrisizer, but no way can you turn it into that RCBS bullet.

Get the RCBS...you won't be disappointed.

[jtaylor1960]

I am using the 8-170-FN. It is sized at .323.The bullets I have I bought from Gardner's Cache.I do have a 32-170-FN mold but haven't cast from it to check the diameter.You can save about $40 if the regular production mold fits your gun.

[felix]

Boolits from my and Sundog's molds make 323 sized boolits. We both have Winnie guns and the boolits are a perfect fit to each one of our guns. If it were not for the gas checks, then we would not have to size the boolits at all. We're talking the standard, stock version molds, made approximately around year 2000 or so. ... felix

[sundog]

I ran my last batch thru a .325 sizer. Work 'jes-fine'.

[jtaylor1960]

I just checked my 32-170-FN mold with a set of calipers.As near as I can tell it measures over .323 and should be able to produce a bullet that will fit your 32.As the other guys already pointed out this is an excellent design for the 32 Special.Good luck,I've had a lot of fun with my 32.

[compass will]

Thanks for the help everyone. Once I get through Christmas I can get to work.
Compass Will

[compass will]

Thought I would update this. gun is done, all cleaned up :)

I received some samples from Oregon Cast. They measure .322". when loaded they cycle through action fine.

Problem is I bought 500 from Hunters supply @ .324". when loaded they are .002" larger then the Oregon cast but don't cycle through the rifle. They catch on the case just behind the bullet. I tried to cut one down to .323" and it still would not cycle. This is new winchester cases, but I do have some 30 year old winchester ammo around that measures the same wall thickness.

[sundog]

Compass, is there a crimp groove on that boolit? If there is, can you crimp in the groove and still have an OAL that will feed and function. For a lever gun, there should be at least a little crimp. A crimp will provide a smooter boolit to brass transition while feeding.

[compass will]

Yes, there is a crimp groove and I have the crimp in the groove. The OAL is shorter then when loaded with jacketed because that bullet has the crimp groove lower then the lead bullet. It feeds well, but the last about 1/2" the action will not close. Pull the cartridge out and you see marks on the head of the case that go back around 1/8" (where I stopped forcing it), just behind the bullet. Looks like the bullet swells the case bigger then the chamber will allow. I need to look closer at the chamber tomorrow. No, I did not cast the chamber so I don't know the true size.

[mroliver77]

Will are you positive that is what is catching? Diferent style boolit is not engaging rifling at same over all length? You can size boolit to .322 between two pieces of flat steel plate by gently rolling boolit between them until the size you want. If .322 will fit and .323 will not the fired case should be tight enough to snugly hold another boolit.
I would do a chamber impression and then know what your chamber neck size is. If you need help in doing this just ask. J

[compass will]

I will try sizing using 2 plates as you said.
NOTE: The Oregon cast measure .322, and when crimped into an empty shell it cycles where the .324 will not.

The OAL is way shorter with the cast over the factory jacketed. I will load a jacketed tomorrow and measure the difference. In fact I think to make the OAL the same, I would need to crimp in the most forward lube groove of the cast bullet

[compass will]

So if I buy this RCBS 32-170-FN, I have a couple questions.
do I have to use Gas checks?

Can I use the Lee equipment to put the gas check on? They only sell the .323 sizer (or I can get any size i want for $25.00

help a new guy out here. what will I need? I think the .324 bullets are going back in exchange for a pot and Molds :) Besides, that is why we are here, to cast our own, not throw away money on someone elses hobby.
melting pot (lee 10 pounder)
RCBS mold (I think handles are extra)
Book, I already have Lyman's cast book.

[Oneshot]

Had the same problem with a lever gun. It is caused by making the bullet to short.

If you move the bullit out from the case a little bit it will work. If the bullet is to short it allows the problem you have to happen . If you set the bullit out further from the case it will change the feed angle and allow the case to miss because the bullit is already pushed down to chamber.

I may not be very good at explaining but it all relates to AOL and feed angle to the chamber. Move the bullit out of the case a little at a time until you find the correct length to feed.

[Rimfire]

Have you checked your bore diameter? Older Marlins usually had tighter bores, the 93SC I had measured .3195.

[compass will]

I guess I am confused. OAL in books is 2.565"
With a factory Winchester 170grain Jacketed FP lead nose I measure 2.542" with the bullet seated so the case crimps in the grove.
This puts the tail of the bullet flush with the top of the angle before the neck.

With the Lead bullet, I crimp in the grove which gives me an OAL of only 2.400", and the tail of the bullet is back at the larger side of the case to neck angle.
Now that you guys brought this up, Should I go for OAL or should I crimp in the forward grove? It sure makes for a longer jump before the bullet hits the rifling.

Looking at the cast bullet, its the same length as the jacketed but the crimp groove is .175" further forward. Sitting a lead bullet next to a cast, I can see that the if I would crimp into the forward lube groove I would have the same OAL as a factory bullet.

I just tried it. I seated the lead bullet to have an OAL of 2.565, the crimp will just catch the front of the forward lube groove. Using the .324 bullets, the top of the case still measures .343", and it sill will not seat the last 1/4" when putting it into the chamber, this is at the point that the neck of the case goes into the chamber. With the .322 bullet, it will seat with no problem.

[mroliver77]

Will,
Why dont you go ahead and make a neck throat impression and quit guessing? It is not hard to do. If you need some soft lead I can send you some. 15 minutes and the guessing is done.
What I do is take a fired case and shorten the neck about 1/4 inch. I then fill case with melted lead or a piece of bar stock to just above the shoulder neck junction. I use a pure lead slug and tap it down the barrel (making sure barrel and chamber is lightly oiled)with a soft steel rod from the hardware. I buy rod as close to bore size as possible and peen end to bump up close to bore size if needed. I then give a few sharp raps with a 2lb sledge on the rod to swage lead into the neck/throat/rifling. Easy does it or you can pack it so tight that bolt will stick. open bolt and tap out slug/case and go to measuring. This gives you an almost perfect look at your neck throat area. It took longer to type this than to do it. J

[CENTEX BILL]

COMPASS WILL:

To expand your choice in loading for this 32 special, you might want to take look at the group buy 32/8mm light wt bullet that is now open. This bullet was designed to work in the 32 special and we need some more takers to close out this group buy.

Look under the Group Buy forum and the sticky for the 32/8mm light wt bullet.

Centex Bill

[Ranch Dog]

I'm working on a bullet for the Marlin's in 32 Special. In reality, it won't be ready for a while because of the wait at Lee. Here is what a Marlin chamber looks like.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC323170RF/ThroatLeade_cutout.gif (http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC323170RF/)

compass will, cartridge OAL (especially comparing a seated jacketed bullet to a cast bullet) doesn't mean anything. What it takes to fit the chamber and what it takes to move from tube to chamber is what counts.

As Rimfire pointed out, there are some very tight barrels that Marlin used at one point. I've found them to be in minority.

[sundog]

Compass Will, before you go laying out bucks for the RCBS mould, consider letting one of us who has the RCBS mould gift you some for the price of the postage. Try before you buy. Of course, if you had enough to last for a spell, Ranch Dog's mould might be ready to go and you could get one of them [instead] [too] (you fill in the blank). If you want to take me up on the offer, PM me.

Earlier in this thread Felix mentioned that he and I both have the RCBS. Mine was from back when, before it was discontinued (a lot of folks thought the .32 Win Spcl was obsolete. Ha! As far as I'm concerned it 'mo betta' than 30-30!). Then, they reintroduced it. His is the later version [I think]. It appears to be the same cut.

Ranch Dog, I'm just waiting on you and Lee. Will there be a 6 banger? I'll need one to make enough for both me and Felix!

[compass will]

Looking at your (beautiful) drawing below, where I have the problem is right where you have "step >15". If I use a .324" bullet, the case sticks right at that point.
If I use a .322", it fits fine. I even think a .323 was tight at this point.
The smith said he can't open it up "only .002".



http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC323170RF/ThroatLeade_cutout.gif (http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC323170RF/)

[Ranch Dog]

At the point you identified, the bullet fit to the throat/leade is everything. The radius of the nose should match the throat/leade. Most designs tend to use a "fat" bullet as a patch to butt up against this point and then cartridge overall length becomes an issue. I spend a lot of time fitting the bullet to that particular location but I can't speak for the bullet that you are using. I sure would not modify my rifle to fit a bullet!!! It should be the other way around!!! Cast with a cooler (minimum) temperature... the mold cavities won't expand as much.

[compass will]

Now that it's lunch time, I was able to study the drawing a little closer

Ranch dog, I think the throat/leade area is where the lead bullet meets the angle in the chamber? My problem is at the end of the case, where it swells where when the bullet is pressed into it. Right below the marks on the drawing Step>15., not where the arrow points. sorry, still learning the terms here.

On the bottom of the drawing, it shows Neck2 .3432". From the location of the note I am assuming that means the measurement of that area of the chamber.

What I found is the case has a neck size of .343" when the bullet that measured .324 (made for 8mm?) is seated. I think I recall that .001" is a press fit? this drawing shows I only have .0002" clearance, that is why my shell will not fit in the area where the end of the case is in the chamber.

Now the case has a neck size of .341 with the .322" bullet seated, giving me .0022 clearance, and they do seat (and fire) fine. A fired case does measure .343+" outside measurement at top of case.

In the drawing he shows a .323 bullet. My measurements show the winchester case adds .019" to the total thickness at the end of the case so he would have an overall width of .342 loaded, which would allow .0012 clearance. Is this enough to allow it to fit, plus allow clearance for the bullet to leave the mouth of the case?

I will get around to measuring the chamber, but from what I am seeing with my experimentation is .322" is as large as my 1921 Marlin model 93 is going to allow me to put into that hole :-D

By the way, thanks for the detailed discussion.

(Edit: I was using some wrong terms, so I had to edit them out).

[Ranch Dog]

Compass, I took another "cutaway" view of the chamber drawing to show the base of the neck as well as the outside diameter of the case. There is only a slight taper to the chamber and the case itself never gets to the area identified as "neck2".

I need to go back to the lead question... I forgot what it was. I spent a couple of hours casting this afternoon and I'm pooped!

[compass will]

I understand, I was using "neck 2" just as a measurement. I did not know it was slight taper, but that also enforces my thought of what I am seeing.

Until I cast the chamber I will not have exact numbers, but as explained in post 29, Using the larger bullets, they will not go all the way into the gun (lever will not close).
When I pull the case out, it is scratched from the top edge to about 1/8" back.
With the smaller bullet, the action closes and there is no scratches on the case.

today I also learned "why or how" to seat the bullet in the case instead of worrying about OAL. Thanks for the education so far. I pulled apart the 5 samples I had loaded, then tried to make the OAL longer. I found that when crimped in the crimp grove, the lead was just hitting the throat. that is where I already had them. Yesterday I did shoot one .322 bullet and it went bang, and came out of the barrel :). that is how I got to measure the fired case at .323+ at the top.

Maybe this weekend I can take my 5 samples to the range and poke a couple holes in some paper. (I already have 50 45-70's with 405 grain lead loaded so the trip will be more then just 5 shots).

PS: I might be interested in one of your molds, but from what I have seen so far I would need to get Lee to make me a .322 sizer.

[Ranch Dog]

II might be interested in one of your molds, but from what I have seen so far I would need to get Lee to make me a .322 sizer.

I hope you will but my .323" mold won't be out till very late this year and it would be able to handle being sized down to .322" (much better than cutting on the gun!). I mainly offered the chamber image so you could visualize the dimensions of the 32 Win Spl.

You might want to take Sundog on his most generous offer by dropping him a PM. Lee will cut you .322" sizer and I believe Buckshot is still doing the same.

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog, I'm just waiting on you and Lee. Will there be a 6 banger? I'll need one to make enough for both me and Felix!

I will want to put my bullet through its paces side by side with the RCBS offering.

[Bret4207]

Will- AM I hearing you right that your cases are "swelling" with the larger diameter boolits? That could be the big issue hear. If the case neck is larger with the bigger diameter boolit, it may just bee too big to chamber. Please clear this up for me. FWIW- if that IS the case, Lee makes a die that'll fix that for not much money- the FCD die.

[compass will]

Will- AM I hearing you right that your cases are "swelling" with the larger diameter boolits? That could be the big issue hear. If the case neck is larger with the bigger diameter boolit, it may just bee too big to chamber. Please clear this up for me. FWIW- if that IS the case, Lee makes a die that'll fix that for not much money- the FCD die.

Yes, this is the case. the case is swelling with the bigger diameter boolit, Since the chamber is tapered, it goes all the way in accept maybe the last 1/8", then stops when the swelled case hits the sides of the chamber.

does FCD mean factory crimp die? they don't make that for 32 win special

[Ranch Dog]

compass,

You would need to special order the Lee Factory Crimp Die but I'm not sure that the collet style rifle FCD will help. The pistol FCD applies the appropriate crimp and sizes the exterior of the case. Is this what you are referencing Bret? The collet rifle FCD does not perform the same step as the pistol dies. This very step can spell problems for 44 Mag rifle shooters that are trying to use .432 bullets. They can order a rifle (collet) FCD.

Some fellows are able to use the 30-30 win FCD but you would probably be better served with one of the appropriate diameter. Again, I don't think it will help your issue but I've been wrong many times...

[grumpy one]

I'm missing nearly all the background to this issue, but I'll just ask an obvious question anyway: are you sure your roll crimp isn't bulging the case neck just behind the crimp? When I used a roll crimp on my 30-30 I had this problem, and had to use a rather light crimp to overcome it. If I didn't do this, I couldn't chamber the rounds because the bulge increased the outside diameter of the neck right behind the crimp, just at the point you seem to be talking about.

I gave up using the built-in crimp feature in the seating dies because I found my case lengths varied sufficiently to make some cases bulge if I set the die to give a light crimp on the shortest cases. It's OK for the cases I keep re-using, which are all trimmed to SAAMI +0, -.003". However randomly selected reclaimed cases seem to vary in length by .025", which is way too much to get satisfactory performance from the built-in crimper. I use a Lee FCD now - at least it doesn't distort the cases.

[Ranch Dog]

Very good point grumpy and worth looking into! Try some without the crimp. Might have to be very gentle because of the large bullet. What are you using to expand the case neck to seat the bullet? If you are not using a expander die, just forcing the bullet into the case with your bullet seating die, that could also cause a slight case bulge.

The Lee FCD might be worth the cost. I had Lee make me one, it was $25 + $4 for shipping. Here is the text from their web site...


To place an order, send payment of $25 for the 7/8x14 series die plus $4.00 S/H along with a dummy cartridge (a bullet seated in an empty case). The dummy cartridge is for testing purposes, so make sure it is within normal demensional tolerances.

[Tom Myers]

First off, thanks for this great resource; I am already learning a lot before I get started.

Anyway, I am hoping to cast some boolits for a .32 special that will feed an early 20's vintage model 93 Marlin. I want to use it for lever action silhouette. I understand this caliber uses .321 jacketed boolits, but I hear I want be around .002" larger for lead. Therefore, I am looking for .323.

Thanks ahead of time
Compass Wil

Will,

Some of the early Marlin-Ballard chambers are reamed with a short taper at the case mouth portion of the neck area.

My 1890 Marlin 93 in 38-55 chamber is cut in this manner.

Redding makes a Taper Crimp die that is designed to form the loaded cartridge to match this taper and it works just great when loading bore diameter + bullets in case necks that are just a tad too thick to chamber that last 3/8 of an inch or so. You can adjust it and lock it down then any type of case/bullet combination that you load will chamber just right.

I do not know for sure that Redding supplies a taper crimp die for the 32 Special but it sure would be worth checking out.

Hope this helps.

Tom Myers

[compass will]

I shot the five .322" bullets I had today, they seemed to group around 2" at 50 yards. This is with open sights, so does that mean that .322" is an acceptable bullet size for my gun?

I also took my problem to the guys at the "cast bullet assoc. match" today. Several recomended that I could remove .001 from the outside of the case. Sundog is sending me some bullets from the RCBS mold, I will see how they work out.

[Ranch Dog]

I shot the five .322" bullets I had today, they seemed to group around 2" at 50 yards. This is with open sights, so does that mean that .322" is an acceptable bullet size for my gun?

Unfortunately compass the answer to your question will take more shooting in my opinion. Evidence as to whether the bullet/size is acceptable is hard to answer in so few shots. The question is probably better answered by what is left in the barrel after a dozen or more shots and whether that group you just shot grows in size. I take it that you have no history with your rifle as it's performance with other bullets would be a basis for examining this bullet. Remember that items such as the powder selection might also influence the group.

Greetings Tom... good to see you up! Fellows, this is the guy responsible for the image of my chamber above. He is very modest, I'm not... he has the best firearms/casting/reloading software on the market. One of things that makes it the best is his practical experience behind the bits and bites!

[MTWeatherman]

Anyway, I am hoping to cast some boolits for a .32 special that will feed an early 20's vintage model 93 Marlin. I want to use it for lever action silhouette. I understand this caliber uses .321 jacketed boolits, but I hear I want be around .002" larger for lead. Therefore, I am looking for .323.

Compass Wil


Everything I have read so far here suggests that you don't need .323 bullet. The assumption that you want that bullet is based on others experience with their rifles...not necessarily applicable to yours. Felix and SunDog have Winchesters that like .323s. Doesn't mean your Marlin needs one...or my Winchester either which handles .321s in the RCBS every bit as well as a .323. You rifle won't chamber a .324 or .323 bullet but can handle the .322...yep maybe its the crimp but just as likely, the bullet is too big. Short of slugging the barrel, thats one way of determining cast diameter...shoot the biggest diameter that will chamber.

Consider:
--The .32 Special departed from usual nomenclature in being named for the groove diameter not the bore...it was designed with a .320 groove diameter. I have an old set of SAAMI specs (printed in Herter's manual from 1964...will remember them and odds are you're of the over 60 crowd also) which sets the groove diameter of the .32 at minimum of .3200 and maxium of .3205. A .321 bullet is over groove. Would seem to me that Oregon Cast did their homework...as .322 seems an ideal choice.

--Doesn't mean that your .32 doesn't have a .321 groove diameter or larger, but it would be out of those specs listed due to wear or simply larger than specifications. Conversely, it doesn't mean that it isn't less...Marlin did make some .318s. I note that ranch dog shows a .322 groove diameter in his schematic...so the SAAMI specs may have been updated to a higher max or perhaps its based on the actual measurements of a particular rifle???????

--Lyman cast data back to the 50s was all based on .321 bullets in the 32...they have never seen the need to create a .322 die...the .323 was for the 8mm.

I have three sizers in the .32 class...a .325 Lyman, a .323 Lee, and a .321 Lyman. I've never developed a fondness for Lee lube so use the .323 to size bullets lubed in the .325 Lyman. I tried .323 in the .32 Special and when I did it 20 + years ago when my eyes were better (sized in an old 310 tool) memory says that the .321 had a slight edge in accuracy at maxium loads with checks and the .323 a definite advantage when used without the check. That predates my RCBS 170 mould and though the groups have opened up a bit with age...one seems to shoot as well as the other with GCs and since I can lube and check in one operation...I use a .321. However, .323 definitely does the best minus check with 323470 Lyman bullet.

My advice would be to try those .322 bullets and see how well they shoot...decent accuracy with no leading and its likely you don't need anything larger. However, take one of those fired cases and see if you can fit a .323 or .324 bullet in it. If so, you should be able to chamber the larger bullet in a loaded cartridge. Next, run the cases into the sizer die just enough to provide a minium amount of neck sizing...and insert those bullets deep enough just reach the crimp groove. Manually insert the cartridge into the chamber and close the action. The bullet will push in to reach the maxiumum OAL of your cartridge...if it pulls out, you can tap the bullet out with a cleaning rod and experiement a bit with neck resizing to get the right tension.

If a .322 bullet works, there's a good possibility that a .321 would also. You'd have to experiment to find out. The good news is that you can get a .321 die for a lubrisizer. However, if you're not able to make the investment in one, you'd have to go the custom Lee die route.

Just checked the posts before sending this "novel" out...Compass Will, seems you made it out to the range, tried some of those .322 bullets, and posted while I was typing. I've got to learn to be briefer with my responses. In any case, 2 inches at 50 yards first time out seems pretty good to me. More load development could likely improve things. Any leading? If not, IMHO you don't need more than .322 and could find .321 works as well.

[sundog]

Hmmm, based on the discussion, I may send Will 2 different boolits, each in 2 different sizes - enough of each to see what will feed and function.

First, of course, is the RCBS 32-170-FN. Length with GC is 0.933. Diameter forward of the front driving band is 0.316.

The other is the GB .326-175-FN. Length with GC is 0.928, essentially the same length, but it does not have a crimp groove. The meplat is smaller so the nose profile is more acute, not as blunt. Diameter forward of the front driving band is 0.320. If the issue is a tight leade, this one may not chamber. Just have to try it to see.

I will prep some of each at .323 and .321. My next smaller die is too small, a lapped out .314 for my SMLE and Jap. My next larger is .325, and from the looks of things, that's just too large.

Right now I have 50 each lubed and checked @ .325. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll run 25 each @ the .323 and 25 each @ .321. Hopefully I will get them mailed out early next week so we can get Will going.

[IcerUSA]

Just some more info to through in , my Marlin slugged at .319 , it's a 1952 vintage with ballard rifling , just got done making a .322 push thru sizer and tried a couple dummy rounds in the Marlin and it works slick , this is with the 323 plinker GB that Cat just got shipped out in the last week or so and they cast at about
.3235 to .324 and in my alloy the average 151gns , need some better weather here so I can get out and try these .

Offer still stands if you want to try those boolits out from my earlier post in this thread .

Keith

[compass will]

However, take one of those fired cases and see if you can fit a .323 or .324 bullet in it. If so, you should be able to chamber the larger bullet in a loaded cartridge.


I just checked all the cases I fired. Keep in mind it was the lowest powder load of H4198. I show .320". I can't even push a .321 jacketed into the case with my fingers. I guess the power charge had enough power to neck size the case.

You know I am starting to really like it around here :-D So many people with so much knowledge and willing to share it.

[MTWeatherman]

Welcome to the board Will!

You’re likely already aware of this, but just so there is no misunderstanding...the fact that you couldn’t get a .323 bullet into a fired case means one of two things:

1. You have a tight chamber and can’t load a .323 or larger bullet.
2. You were firing a low pressure load which didn’t allow for good expansion of the case neck.

Based on your report, it sounds like it was the latter. You haven’t confirmed that you can’t use a larger bullet...just that you weren’t lucky enough to have it fit and confirm that you could.

Sounds like Sundog is setting you up with a good array of bullets to try...with the .321 and .323 sizes from him and the .322s from Oregon Cast, you’ll have all you need to confirm bullet size. Given my experience, I’m curious how it turns out. Please keep us posted.

A sidenote...the .32 Special is hands down my favorite cast rifle. Its the least finicky one I own...suspect that with the proper bullet you could develop a reasonably accurate load with about any powder you could name. That’s stands in total opposition to my .223 which is temperamental beyond belief and still insists on throwing occasional fliers.

You've got a good one...

[sundog]

Wxman and Will, I grow curiouser and curiouser by the day.

Boolits are ready to ship -- hopefully go out tomorrow.

Yeah, the flyer thing in the .223 is most frustrating. Several in a nice, neat little cluster, and then, zingo, four inches out!

[Bullshop]

MTWeatherman
There is another possibility for the boolit not fitting into a fired case. If the brass is slightly too long for that particular chamber and the mouth extends slightly into the lead so that the mouth holds a slight taper. Its a simple matter to trim back a fired case a few .000", inside debur and try the slip fit again. If it goes after a trim you know what the problem is.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[MTWeatherman]

Bullshop:

Very good point. I overlooked that one. Make that three reasons.

I was assuming the cases were trimmed to length. However, even assuming that, if the chamber specifications were off...it could still happen and can't be ruled out. Flaring the fired case neck or cutting it back and deburring it as you suggested would be a good way to check.

[compass will]

Thanks for the help everyone. This experiment will be delayed a few days as I am heading to Beautiful, sunny warm Chicago for the week :(. I will still be on the internet, but away from my hobby (NTSA don't like you to take this hobby with you), but I will take my Lyman book. good reading on an airplane, it tends to keep the person next to you from trying to talk to you unless they are a booolit loader too :)

PS: The cases i was testing with were 10 Factory loaded winchester cases I had pulled the jacked bullets on. The unfired cases are 2.025", the five I fired are 2.034" but I have not sized them since firing. I think the case should be max 2.040" according to Lee's book?

[compass will]

Sundog, Wife told me your box came yesterday. THANKS! I am supposed to fly home From Chicago Friday, but they are calling for a snow storm tonight. well see.

[johnly]

I hope to join the 32 Special crowd tomorrow when I pick up a 1948 Marlin 336A. Ya Hoo!:drinks::drinks:

John in Oregon

[compass will]

Johnly, I have a 336SC in 30-30 that is within a year or 2 of yours. It was grandmom's and I don't think its been shot more then a couple times :).

Sundog, I got home and opened your box. Way more then I expected :-D thank you very much! I owe you one. At least let me return the boxes and pay for postage.

I will see if I can load some up tomorrow to check some sizing. Around what speed would you push these at if you were shooting them? I have load data from Lee's book in the cast section (in front of the book) for 30-30. I will be using either H4198 or H4895 (since that is what I have and both are in the lee book for 170 grain)

[sundog]

Will, my best loads run around 2K, but start back from that. Try some at about 1600-1800 and see what happens. Once you get something that looks like it might work, bump it up a grain at a time until the group opens up then back off a grain or two and shoot several more groups of 3 or 5 shots. Pick the one that looks best.

That 'way more than expected' will use up pretty quick when you start testing. Enjoy! Both those powders you have should work.

So, I take it that you did not get snowed in chi-town??? Home is a good place to be.

Range report required.

[compass will]

Update:

Both of the boolets sized at .321" load into chamber perfect.
The shells with the .323" 175's stick around 1/4" short of seating into chamber.
the shells with the .323" 170's stick around 1/8" short of seating into chamber, but you can force them in with lever. I fear this might be causing a press fit where the brass might not be able to expand enough to release the boolet causing high pressure spike.

Edit: there is no marks on the lead boolets that do not seat, the marks on all the way at the top of the case, on the brass. It is not the boolets sticking, it is the thickness of the case where the boolet is seated. I tried both crimped and uncrimped.

I did load all the .321's.
I loaded everything in groups of 5.

5-170 grains with XX grain powder.
5-175 grains with XX grain powder.
then the next 10 got XX+1 grain of powder
then the next 10 got XX+2 grain until I ran out boolets. (and powder)
I got 50 loaded for tomorrow. I really expect to have tight groups, I don't think .321" is going to bounce around inside the barrel. :)

[compass will]

Range report:
Range was crowded. I got there 1/2 hour before you can start to shoot and it was packed. (first warm day we have had in a while).

I could only get on the 25 yard range, but for just shooting groups 25 is fine.

Using just a front "V" shaped bag with open sights.
This is the results in MY gun.

I started my loading for around 1600fps, all the way up to 1800fps.

With both boolets, the faster they went, the tighter the group. Worse groups were around 1.5" across.

The RCBS boolets seemed to shoot just a little better for me. The best group was the 5 fasted loaded with RCBS 32-170-FN. They had a group with all 5 holes touching (really 4 leaf clover). I could have shot at 100 yards to see a bigger group, put then my eyes would have enlarged the group as well since I would have been shooting at a 6" bullseye instead of a 3/4" yellow dot in the middle of the 6" bullseye.

I think either boolet would meet my needs. The 175 might have a little more knock down power on that steel ram at 200 yards?

I need to do some serius thinking on this. My first attempt to find some wheel weights turned up empty buckets. If I found at least one bucket to get me started I would jump on the casting bandwagon. First match is mid April so I got a little time yet. I guess since I need to return a box of 500 "to large" boolets to Midway, and they don't sell the ones that fit, I could exchange them for a melting pot.
Then if I decide to go the Lee sizer route, I would need to special order the .321" which takes time.

[MTWeatherman]

Sounds as though you found your bullet and size. Not surprised that the RCBS has come out the winner...and that's good. Since the other bullet was a GB, its your only option at this stage unless another board member wants to give up their mould.

FYI, I use 3031 powder to drive that RCBS .321 bullet at 2100 fps with excellent accuracy. I don't use straight WW but use 3 parts WW to 1 part Lino for the alloy...yielding a bullet weight of 178 gr. Your experience somewhat mirrors my own in that the .321 performs well with the hotter loads.

With only 5 grains different between the two bullets...one would expect that the better ballistic coefficient would be the deciding factor on ram knockdown at 200 yds. However, before you assume that you actually have 5 grains difference, suggest you weight them..in general, the RCBS runs heavier than 170 gr. with WW. Or if you've shot the bullets up, perhaps Sundog would be kind enough to provide the information for you. If the GB bullet is the heavier and per Sundog's report has a smaller meplat to give it a higher B.C., it should indeed have a slight edge on 200 yd knockdown given equal muzzle velocity...due both to heavier weight and retained velocity. However, I'm betting that in actual use you wouldn't tell the difference...and I'm also betting, that if necessary, you can use that RCBS bullet in a hotter load while still maintaining decent accuracy.

Depending on your finances, and since a standard Lee sizer is not available, keep your mind open toward applying that custom Lee sizer cost toward a lubrisizer purchase with a .321 die...you could have it in a week. Once the casting bug strikes you may just be postponing the inevitable by not doing so now. Many of us long-time casters have already been down that road...its well traveled. No you do not need a lubrisizer and yes, there are casters who are happy with Lee Liquid Alox. However, a lubrisizer certainly increases lubricant (unless you're happy with panlubing) and sizer options...and the former becomes really noteworthly when it comes to rifles.

[sundog]

Well. Well, well, well. One more tough nut seemly cracked (finding feed and function, that is). Good on you, Will! I like it when a plan comes together.

[compass will]

I only got one more question.
Gas Checks:
Do I need to find .321", or does the gas check resize also?
The ones I see in the stores are called .32-8mm.

[MTWeatherman]

Those are the checks you need...the .32 Special and 8mm both use the same. The resizer will size them to your bullet.

With casting, persistence and experimentation are a large part of individual success. Congratulations on yours. You've demonstrated all the characteristics of a new convert.

Good casting!!!!!!!!

[johnly]

Will,

Rather than return the bullets to Midway, I would suggest running them through a sizer a second time and reduce the diameter to .321"

John

[compass will]

Were starting to get away from the original 32 winchester special thread, but:
You might have an idea here John. Resize the 500 I got, then in the month or 2 it takes me to use them up I could buy the other equipment I need! People here even think like me.
I really need to get started. I ran out of 45-70 500 grainers last night, they cost like $16.00 per hundered.

Which resizer do most folks seem to like?
Lyman 4500
RCBS Lube-A-Matic 2
something else?

[HORNET]

Look around at gun shows, old gun shops, and do a lot of asking and sometimes you can pick up an old Ideal/Lyman model 45 for a good price. I think mine was $25 (with a .358 sizing die). They're old but still good.

[compass will]

If one was looking at buying a Lyman 4500, what top punch would he order to match the RCBS 32-170-FN boolet?

Is it worth going with the heated model? If yes, there is 2 options, one option is to buy one with the heating element built in, the other option is to buy the 4500 now (to resize the boolets I already got that are already lubed) and buy the heated plate later. Price difference is only around $10.00 more to add the plate to a later order.

[MTWeatherman]

FYI, the Lyman 450 was their updated model to the number 45. I've used mine for nearly 40 years without a problem. Can't address the 4500 specifically, but it was the recent update to the 450. Prices are usually a bit less for the Lyman. Although some will tell you they prefer the RCBS over the Lyman, would guess that the price on the Lyman still makes it the most popular. Both take the same sizer dies and top punch.

The RCBS #550 top punch is made for their 32-170-FN bullet.

You don't need a heater unless you are using some of the harder lubes. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to Lar45's LsStuff and you'll find some lubes at a good price that work well and don't require it. Not necessary at this point, especially if you want to hold down startup cost...heater just makes more lubes available to you. You can improvise one for yourself at less cost if you need it and want to save a few bucks.

[compass will]

Thanks everyone. yes the bug has bitten. I just picked up my first load of wheel weights. I stopped by to see some guys I used to work with and got 3/4 of a bucket for $10.00. Better yet, now I have 2 shops saving all wheel weights for me :-D
Still got three more shops to hit that I know the guys, one of them is a tire dealer so this is all coming together. I got a recycling guy on the next mountain over that might have what ever I need to harden up the wheel weight mix. (but I will search on that answer as I am sure its already on this list).


Soon to be :castmine: