Stevens Buckhorn .25 RF

[Bent Ramrod]

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I finally cobbled together a scope and mount and took the Stevens Model 53 out to the range for some rare exercise. Figured I'd get it sighted in at 50 yards and maybe go squirrel hunting with it some day. Took 14 shots to get two 5 shot groups to point of aim at 50 yards. (The odd shots are the ones I turned the crosshairs on to get the 5 shot groups centered.)

Then I tried some .25 RF blanks with 0.257" lead balls rolled in Lee Liquid Alox at 15 yards, with not very encouraging results (last photo). Plenty of power; more, actually, than I would like to put behind a heavier boolit, but no accuracy, difficult extraction and some leading when I cleaned up.

Fourteen UMC rounds that I'll never see again (*sob!!*). Shooting .25 Stevens RF is a decadent luxury, but, like eating frozen Mammoth meat or opening one of those insanely expensive bottles of rare vintage wine, sometimes "The Experience" is worth it! :mrgreen:

The rifle is rather handsome, with a nearly adult size stock of nice wood and finish and a well done, if painted on, "ebony forend tip." Kind of a stiff trigger, and the action was marred by two ugly aftermarket screw holes on the off side, but by judicious welding and redrilling, I got one of those old sheet metal Weaver side mounts to fit the holes. Mounted is a small Colt .22 scope. The rifle has a bunch of British proof marks on it; maybe it belonged to a gamekeeper over there. Obviously, it wasn't used a great deal, and was pretty well taken care of.

I saw another 53 Buckhorn in .22 WRF at a gun show one time and lusted after it, but the price was much higher than this one and the condition much worse. The more routine examples are in .22 S-L-LR calibers, but the single shot versions don't seem to be all that common in any of the rimfire calibers.

I have a Favorite in pretty good shape in .25 Stevens caliber, and will take that out and sight in the scope one of these days. That one will not be used with these blanks; they are way too powerful. Haven't tried the modern color coded driver blanks yet.

[w30wcf]

Neat! :grin: There has been quite a discussion on the .32 Rimfire thread regarding the Duo-Fast .22 & .27 cal blanks.
The Duo-Fast .22 level 2 pushed a 90 gr bullet to 805 f.p.s. and a 48 gr round ball to 960 f.p.s.
I also tried the .22 level 2 in a .22 rifle with a 30 gr. bullet - 1,505 f.p.s. I would expect about 1,300 f.p.s. with a 40 gr. bullet.

Perhaps going to a power level 2 .25 caliber would give better results. In comparing the .22 cal. power level 3 and .27 cal. power level 3 they produce pretty much the same ballistics with a 90 gr bullet in the .32 - 969 vs 988 f.p.s. 2 different rifles used (see .32 rimfire hread).

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ramset-0-25-Caliber-Brown-Disc-Powder-Loads-for-Ramset-Tools-100-Pack-00616/100488470?N=5yc1vZc3d5

It would be interesting to see how the .25 power level 2 and power level 3 would work with the 257420 bullet (65 grs less g.c.)

[Chev. William]

W30wcf, Bent Ramrod,
There is a small problem with the different Powder tool Load (PTL) caliber descriptions.
The PTL body diameters for the .25 and .27 Calibers are slightly smaller than their designation.
Example: The .25 Cal PTL measures ~.248" Body diameter.
Example: The .27 Cal PTL measures ~.268" Body diameter.

The .25 Stevens, and the Center Fire .25ACP, are about .276" Body Diameter.

I believe you MAY be able to fire .27 Cal PTL loads in a .25 Stevens chamber without any adapter but you probably will find 'sooting' of the case and chamber.
I do not believe a .25 Cal PTL load without a chamber adapter (case) will be possible to fire in a .25 Stevens chamber as I believe the rim will not be retained in firing position.

I also believe a .22 PTL/.22 Blank Chamber Adapter could be made out of either a reformed and cut down .22 Hornet case o rcould be machined from Bar stock.

If you find out differently, Please post your results on the Thread.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Bent Ramrod,
That is one lovely Rifle you 'scored', Good Job.

Would you post the measurements of your .25 Blanks, who made them, and where you found them?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
Thank you for the case dimensions. I should have realized that the .25 cal. blank was smaller than the chamber. It would seem that the rims could be cut off the fired .25 Stevens cases, a .25 cal blank installed, and a crimp applied by a .25-20 Lee FCD to take up the windage if necessary.

The easier option would be to use the .27 caliber blank. Since there may be a slight amount of windage in the chamber, a pressure sensitive label could be used on the face of the breech block or case head to take up any headspace and seal the chamber end if need be.

A friend who has a keen interest in single shot rifles and who has a number of references recently wrote me this:

I have a splendid little book on antique European military firearms, which gives a lot of clever ideas for firing guns in obsolete chamberings, and I recall that the author suggested using a power blank for a masonry nailer, with a bullet separately breech-loaded in the Schützen manner, for the .25 Stevens rim-fire. It must have been one of the “.27” loads; I know that a cartridge adapter wasn’t involved. I hadn’t thought about this until now that I see you have successfully used the Duo-Fast charges in the .32RF cartridge adapter—not just as a primer, but as the entire charge.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

W30wcf,
Thanks for relating that quote about Breech loading using powder Tool Loads, it confirms that we are treading in the foot steps of others and are on the right 'trail' to success.

Just how thick is the .25 Stevens RF case?
Might it work if the base bit were removed leaving the rim front face and perhaps the outer edge in place?
.278" -.248" = .030 or about .015" wall needed to hold the .25 Cal Blank in a fired .25 Stevens case if I understand correctly. Less if the .25 Stevens is run through a sizing die to return it to unfired diameter.

The idea of using a Collet Crimp Die to squeeze down the case base to hold better is a good one, we just need to try it.

Absent a case to try, you might try using a piece of Hobby .014" wall Brass tubing of a suitable size, say 9/32" Outside Diameter (OD) and see if it will hold the Blank well after crimping. Admittedly the tubing is somewhat over diameter but a pass through a sizing die will swage it down to proper .276" OD.
I do not have a .25-20 die to try it with myself.

I have tried just using a section of the 9/32" tubing run through a .25ACP carbide sizing die and it lightly grips the blank (I tried this for use with my ".250 Diameter Bullets in Rifle Length Barrels" experiments but did not have anything to 'crimp' the blank in place.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

W30 and Chev,

The blanks are "Hilti" DX500 "Medium Charge" Cal 6.8mm (.27 caliber) made by Sinoxid in Nurnburg, W Germany. I found most of two tins at the Costa Mesa Gun Show a few years back. Dimensions of the unfired blanks are 0.700" long, 0.266" diameter, rim ~0.050" thick. Fired, they are 0.720" long, 0.280" diameter and the rims are 0.053" thick. They have no trouble fire forming to the extent of the chamber. They blow straight out with no smudging, all the way down to the rims. I had no burst rims, but the extractor rode over three of the five shells tried. It was not hard to push them out of the chamber with a cleaning rod though.

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The unfired UMC .25 Stevens Long shell is 1.152" long (1.377" to end of bullet) 0.275" diameter with a rim 0.050" thick. The metal of the shell itself is somewhere between 0.0115" and 0.0113" thick; there may be some remains of the crimp at the mouth that influences my readings. The CIL Dominion .25 Short in the bag had the same diameter and rim thickness.

Obviously, "medium" power is a little much for driving boolits, although the accuracy needed to drive nails and spikes is not nearly so critical :mrgreen:. I have the 257420 and was thinking of using it if the round balls seemed to do OK but I think a major reduction in charge pressure is needed first. I may go over to Home Depot and get some of those .27 calibers at the low end of the power scale and try them.

In my experience, neither the .25 or the .32 rim fires were loaded to anywhere near the intensity of even modern .22LR standard velocity rounds. All the .25's I've played with had the copper cases, even up to the end of manufacture, where the .22's had long since switched to brass. The Brazilian .32s had brass cases, but probably because they didn't want to switch back to copper.

I've almost always had to rebuild Favorites to shoot even standard velocity .22's. I remember replacing a 1894 Favorite link with a bigger one made of Stentor tool steel with two drill rod link pins. That lasted for one carton of CCI Blazer Hi-Speed before the rims started bursting again. Meanwhile, all the old, droopy lever Favorites that I never bothered doing anything with soldiered along with the .25 and .32 rim fires without a murmur.

I did some chronographing from a couple Favorites a while back. Three shots of CIL Dominion .25 Stevens Long clocked 1137, 1104 and 1105 ft/sec. Western 25 Long got 1035, 1137 and 1105 ft/sec. The CIL Dominion .25 Shorts went 987, 969 and 987 ft/sec. (These last made an interesting sound; kind of a hollow "phutt!" with an overtone or echo like it was being shot down a culvert pipe.)

All I ever had was the Navy Arms Brazilian stuff in .32 Long. It reistered 977, 976 and 952 ft/sec. I never had the reliability or accuracy problems with this imported .32 RF that a lot of people do. It obviously isn't a target cartridge and most of my .32 RF bores are pretty to impossibly bad, but hunting accuracy at woods distances was acceptable, and they all went off.

Wish I'd bought more back when Navy Arms offered them for an outrageous $24.00 a box. I really wish I'd bought a few cartons of CIL Dominion .25 Stevens when they were going for an extortionate $4.95 a box in the Seventies!

[w30wcf]

Bent Ramrod,
Thank you for the reports. Interesting. :grin: Just out of curiosity, what is the charge weight in the .27 blanks you have? Perhaps the weight difference between an empty and a loaded one would be close enough without having to dissect one.

The .22 Number 2 is loaded with 1.66 grs (average of 10) .32 / 90 gr bullet - 805 f.p.s. average / 48 gr RB - 960 f.p.s. average
The .22 Number 3 is loaded with 2.10 grs (average of 10) .32 / 90 gr bullet - 969 f.p.s. average .
The powder burning rate is pretty much spot on with Bullseye.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Bent Ramrod,
Thank you for reporting the Velocity data on .25 Stevens Factory Cartridges. The 'current published listings' seem to be 'downloaded' and your numbers are closer to the Early 1900s era Catalog data that has been reported elsewhere.

Based upon others testing, it may be that a Grade 3 or possibly Grade 4 PTL blank would give similar performance with a similar weight Bullet, which if I remember correctly was 67 grains for the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge (perhaps anywhere from 65 to 70 grains would be acceptable).

I do not know what the actual pressure levels for the .25 Stevens were, or are if CIP in Europe is still testing them, SAMMI does not list the .25 Stevens because it is not a Current production cartridge in the USA. Modern RF cartridges seem to have SAMMI pressure limits of around 23000 to 25000 PSI with the new 17WMR having a slightly higher pressure limit (Remington makes them from cases similar to the .27 Cal PTL blank, only longer).

Now, IF we could just get Olin/Henry/Winchester or Remington to make .25 Stevens Long RF again our shooting would be easier, although possibly more expensive.

Oh Well, I guess that is just wishful thinking.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

The charge weight in the Hilti blanks appears to be 4.8 grains.

[w30wcf]

Thank you. If the burning rate was similiar to 2400 that would be almost ideal but based on your results with them, it likely is not.

I used a sharpened nail in combination with a seating die in my press to slightly open the petals of the .22 blanks to obtain the data for the powder charges. If you were to do the same and remove, say...... 3 grs of the powder, or thereabouts, perhaps that would make them ideal for the application.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

The charge weight in the Hilti blanks appears to be 4.8 grains.

I'm sorry to need to ask, but is that derived by weighing an unfired Blank and a fired case, then subtracting?

If so, then the 4.8 grains would also include the priming. Since these looked like 'star' crimp blanks, there would be no 'Wad' in them.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

I weighed all five empties, tared the scale and weighed five full ones and divided by five. Have any of you weighed the empty vs full color coded .27 blanks to get a similar idea of loading?

I would not imagine that the weight of priming mixture minus the weight of the remaining primer residue along the rim and in the shell would be more than a couple tenths of a grain. It's mostly lead by weight in either case.

I used to pick open the star crimps on .22 Shot cartridges and replace the shot with lead BB's, but I wasn't digging into the powder charge with them. Before I try that on these, I'll get some of the milder colored blanks next time I'm at Home Depot and just give it the empirical approach.

I looked up the Buckhorn No. 53 in Sharpe's book. They were only made for a ten year period that was interrupted for at least four years by the war. Not so amazing that they don't show up very often.

[w30wcf]

Bent Ramrod,
I weighed 5 each .22 Level 3 blanks - fired, unfired, powder removed.

Difference between unfired and fired.... - 2.25 grs.
actual powder weight removed average - 2.10 grs.
weight of the priming charge ...............- 0.15 grs.

w30wcf

[Bent Ramrod]

I got 100 of the Ramset .27 caliber blanks today. The lowest power level Home Depot had was 3, although the .25 and .22 calibers could be gotten in lower powers. They are shorter than the Hilti ones, so hopefully they are less powerful, although 3 on a scale of 5 sounds pretty "medium" to me.

We're getting our badly needed rain and not needed at all wind today, but I'll get out and try them when time and weather permit.

[w30wcf]

Bent Ramrod,
It will be interesting to hear how your tests went.

A couple of years ago I worked on a .25 Stevens replication loads for my .25-50 '92 Winchester SRC.
2.5 grs. of Bullseye produced 1,183 f.p.s. with a 257420 bullet (no gas check).

Since the .25-20 is a larger case, the 2.1 grs of powder that the .27 number 3 power** may contain, might just provide close to the original .25 rim fire ballistics.

** The .22 number 3 power blank produced pretty much the same velocity as the .27 number 3 power blank as reported in the .32 rimfire thread. The powder burning rate is similar to Bullseye.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

I got 100 of the Ramset .27 caliber blanks today. The lowest power level Home Depot had was 3, although the .25 and .22 calibers could be gotten in lower powers. They are shorter than the Hilti ones, so hopefully they are less powerful, although 3 on a scale of 5 sounds pretty "medium" to me.

Bent Ramrod, that Grade 3 is on a range of grades from 1 to 12 with 1 being the weakest and 12 being the strongest. Grades 2 through 6 seem to be the ones that are presently available for sale in the USA with grades 5 and 6 being rarely offered. Back in 1969-1974 I used Grade 7 PTL as Blanks in a Ruger Standard Automatic, with a blank firing adapter on the muzzle, and they cycled the action very reliably and provided the 'Sound and Fury' of a Much Larger Cartridge in my use in Counterinsurgency training of Reserve personnel. Two 'shots near an inattentive sentry usually both got their attention and taught them a lesson that would keep them alive in combat. Chev. William

We're getting our badly needed rain and not needed at all wind today, but I'll get out and try them when time and weather permit.

Friday through Sunday rain and wind here, thunder storm took out my U-Verse Service Friday night and did not get it up until Sunday evening, Monday let me know I will need to replace the Canvas on my Vehicle Tent/Shelter, and a bucket left exposed had 8"of water in it Monday morning (Sun Valley, CA).

Best Regards,
Chev. william

[Bent Ramrod]

A glorious, windless, slightly overcast day today, so I took the Buckhorn out. The .27 cal. Ramset #3 blanks were much milder than the Hilti blanks, and worked much better with the .257 round balls. Here are the targets at 15 yards, ten shots each. It would be nice to have a subload that zeroes at 50 feet or so at the same setting for the regular cartridges at 50 yards. This one would be pretty close to that, if I could tighten the group up.

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Only 3 of the 25 blanks fired failed to extract, and they were easily pushed out with a cleaning rod. Very little leading was seen on cleanup after 24 shots fired, unlike the five shots last time. There was some gas blow-by, which was kind of disconcerting and may have caused some flinches and off shots. The cases were often smudged with soot. Another reason for off shots could be lumps of dried Lee Liquid Alox on some of the round balls. Of course, I couldn't load them "sprue up;" it was enough work getting them in the chamber. The blanks were hard to load too, as they were very short compared to the Hilti blanks and regular rounds. There is no loading ramp on the rifle. I tried four off the bench at a 50 yard gong, but didn't hit it once. When I try the 65 gr boolits, I'll have to cobble together some kind of loading tool. But this is much more encouraging result than the first try.

[Chev. William]

Bent Ramrod,
As i understand your last post, the Grade 3 .27 Cal. PTL Blank is ocasonally letting gases past the base when fired in your rifle?
I wonder if one or two wraps, closely and tightly laid, of Scotch Tape just ahead of the rim would 'shim' the case just enough to better seal in your chamber?
The idea is that the .268" or .269" diameter case is already smaller than the .276" diameter of a .25 Stevens case so the two to four thicknesses of tape would bring the Blank closer to the same overall body diameter. And closer to chamber diameter also.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

Chev,

The tape might work, but might also cause the shells to stick worse in the chamber. I'll see if the additional pressure of a .25 boolit causes better gas sealing before I try that, but it's nice having techniques in reserve.

[w30wcf]

Bent Ramrod,
Thank you for the range report. Things are certainly looking better.:grin:
As you indicated, perhaps the higher pressure with the heavier 257420 bullet might expand the blanks enough to seal the chamber.

If not, Chev. William's idea sounds like it would work.

w30wcf

[Bent Ramrod]

I took a cursory look through my boolit cabinet. Somewhere in there is a box of 257420 HPs but I couldn't find them. So I got some solid ones cast from Hoch mould No. 25865, sized 0.258" with Lyman gas checks. I loaded one ahead of the Ramset #3 blank with tweezers and fired them at 15 yards. Ten in the first group; nine in the second. (One fired for effect to make sure nothing drastic would happen.)

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There was still the occasional puff of gas out the breech, and some of the off shots are probably the result of the variances in holding I made to keep my face away. However, the smudging was pretty much gone on the cases, and at least a third of them needed a tap of the cleaning rod to remove. There was some evidence of boolit tipping as well. But the boolits definitely grouped tighter than the round balls.

Ill see if I have a 0.251" sizer and look again for those HPs. Hopefully the reduced weight and changed center of gravity will reduce the hard extraction and tipping. If I can find those I'll try 25 and 50 yards next time.

[3leggedturtle]

Thats looking good. This post, the one about 25ACP in rifle and a few others,are most of th reason why quit being a lurker. I really ike seeing old,obsolete and it "can't be done" projects this THAT get solved and are able to be used again. I have passed on a few really nice singles in 25RF because of no ammo. Almost bought them anyway because of there workmanship. You wouldn,t go hungry if you have squirrels, rabbits and pheasant around your place.

[mikeym1a]

Just a suggestion, if you have the patience: you might get a sheet of hobby brass, .005 or so, and make some 'belts' to go around the base of the case, to keep it centered, and it might just seal the gas leakage. And, as these are a split ring, they should be reusable for the next round of shooting. I did this in my Comblain rifle when I was trying to fireform cases, and it worked well, but, that case is a LOT bigger than yours. mikey

[w30wcf]

Bent Ramrod,
Nice.....a definite improvement!:-D Most of the shots in 1" at almost 50 feet. I would be curious as to what the velocty is.
Is your Hoch mold for a 65 gr. bullet? Hopefully you'll find the misplaced 457420 H.P.'s.

.251"? Rifle's groove diameter?

w30wcf

[Nobade]

I am following this thread with great interest. Yesterday I found a nearly mint Stevens Favorite, 25 Stevens, in the LGS. I wonder how long it will stay there? This could get expensive in the future.

-Nobade

[Bent Ramrod]

I misspoke on the .251". That was the diameter of the English .25 rifles. I recall the Stevens rimfire was nominally less than 0.257" though. I'll have to look it up, or maybe slug the bore. I'll also cogitate on what can be used to make up the difference in diameters between those blanks and the chamber walls.

The Hoch mould is pretty much a copy of the 257420, nominally 65 grains.

I'd hesitate to do this kind of development work with a 1894 Favorite, though if everything proves out safe I hope to be able to shoot mine with this kind of loading. The 1915 Favorite might have a little better safety margin, a Remington #4 would be better still, and the larger rifles much better. The Hopkins and Allen 925 would be a pretty good test bed, but all I've ever seen were in .22 or .32 rimfire. The majority of the kid's rifles and all the "big" rifles in .25 Stevens I've been able to afford were shot out wrecks which weren't accurate enough to bother experimenting with.

[Chev. William]

I misspoke on the .251". That was the diameter of the English .25 rifles. I recall the Stevens rimfire was nominally less than 0.257" though. I'll have to look it up, or maybe slug the bore. I'll also cogitate on what can be used to make up the difference in diameters between those blanks and the chamber walls.

The Hoch mould is pretty much a copy of the 257420, nominally 65 grains.

I'd hesitate to do this kind of development work with a 1894 Favorite, though if everything proves out safe I hope to be able to shoot mine with this kind of loading. The 1915 Favorite might have a little better safety margin, a Remington #4 would be better still, and the larger rifles much better. The Hopkins and Allen 925 would be a pretty good test bed, but all I've ever seen were in .22 or .32 rimfire. The majority of the kid's rifles and all the "big" rifles in .25 Stevens I've been able to afford were shot out wrecks which weren't accurate enough to bother experimenting with.

I hear you on the Cost and Condition Problems.
My two 1894 actions were 'lucky' purchases at about total $300 each after the California Transfer fees and taxes and shipping were added on.

My 1915 'modified' Action was better buy at about total $250.
The second was a distressed stripped one at a total of about $150.

The first Model 44 receiver cost me $250, the second one $150, and the third about $250 again.
These are all somewhat distressed and stripped so I will need to find internals to make them usable.

Then there are the barrels I have purchased over time, which varied from about $50 shipped to about $150, plus two NOS .308" 'Blanks' that cost about $180 each and a new purchase .25ACP/6.35mm Browning Rifle length 'Blank' for $160 shipped.

Yes it is an 'expensive' hobby but when spread over time it has been an affordable endeavor even on my 'decreasing purchase power' Retirement pensions.

I got into these in looking for a single shot action that I could use to develop 'lengthened .25ACP' cartridges, later .25 Stevens replacements, and still later .32 "Colt" size variations. I now have the tools and abilities to reform .22 Hornet cases to .25ACP diameters and yield cases as long as 1.380", lately I have added the tools to reform the .32 S&W series to .32 Colt diameters.

The hobby "just Grew" but I do not have the tools nor the desire to Cast Lead at home, this may chnge in the future IF I find a source of additional income (not too likely at my age).

Keep up the good progress and keep posting progress reports.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: the .25ACP and the .25 Stevens RF (both Short and Long) share the same bullet diameters, nominal .250" and so far my .25 Stevens barrels have all Slugged .252" or less Groove diameter. Chev. William

[slumlord44]

Been following this with great interest. I have several .25 Stevens rifles. Got a box of #3 Ramset .27 blanks. Tried them in my Stevens 44. Fired fine. Extracted fine. Have to be careful because of the short length. Pulled a bullet from a .25 Stevens Short to see what would happen. Pretty much mangled it getting it out but stuck in in the breach and put in a .27 Ramset. Fired and bullet hit my 50 gallon trash burn barrel at about 20 yards. Need some proper 67 grain .251 or .252 bullets. Have 87 grain .257 bullets for my .25-25 but fear they are way too heavy. Anyone got a source for .251 67 grain lead bullets? Need to get some and run them through the chronograph to see where I am at velocity wise. This particular 44 is unusual for a .25 Stevens gun. Flip up front sight, veneer tang sight, and double set triggers. The set trigger has an extremely light trigger pull. May need to adjust it. Most accurate .25 Stevens I have with Canuck ammo from the '70's.

[Chev. William]

You will need to search for the 67 grain bullets. I have been looking also and have not found any yet. One Mold company lists a design for a 50 grain one they said they could extend another driving band longer and get a 65 grain mold but would not quote me a price when asked. "Old West Moulds" did not have a .25 design yet when I asked him bu tdid have some interesting .32, .38, and .41 designs that would go with my 1877 Colt pistols.
If you do find a source, please share it with us.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[slumlord44]

Carolina Cast Bullets has a 50 grain .258 RNFL soft lead bullet for $8 100. They want an extra $15 to size them down to .253 I think. Need to push a .257-.258 bullet that I have for my .25-25 through my .25 Stevens barrel and see what I come up with. The .258 works fine in my .25-25.

[Chev. William]

Slumlord44,
The one Stevens 44 Barrel I have that was in 25-20 slugged .257" Groove diameter and about .251 bore. It Was a 'Bastardized' one that the previous owner had started cutting a new '44' tenon on so far forward he cut off all the markings after the '25' of the caliber marks and everything after 'J. Steven' of the manufacture's name. I have since further machined the tenon to fit a 1915 Receiver socket but have not yet set it up for head space nor cut either the retaining screw socket or the extractor slot.

For testing, I would think you could size a few of your 25-20 bullets down to around .252" or even .251" even with the Gas Check already on them. Perhaps the Gas check would "cup" and give you a 'cup base' bullet to try? Might be helped with a rounded end on the punch used to run them into the sizing die.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

The windstorms of the last three weeks finally died down in the mornings and I was able to go out and try the Buckhorn with the 257420 HP boolits and the Ramset 27 blanks. I decided to go out to 50 yards this time, as there is no target frame on our range at 25 yards, only steel gongs.

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There is quite a lot of scatter at 50 yards, and the boolits are tipping worse than at 15 yards. The first 10 (on the target at left) were simply dropped in the chamber and the Ramset blank seated and fired. The second 10 I pushed the boolits home with a cleaning rod, although there was no sensation of "breech seating;" the boolit just went in and stopped rather than moving into a leade. This method of seating did not seem to be an improvement on dropping the boolit in, but maybe the extra scatter (two boolits missed the paper entirely) could have been reduced by cleaning after the first string.

I was surprised to note that the elevation at 15 yards and 50 yards was almost the same for this load. I'll have to set up my target frame at 25 yards and see what the trajectory is.

Only three shells failed to extract, and they were easily pushed out, rather than having to tap them loose with the cleaning rod as before. It looks like the HP boolits' weight is better for pressure than the solid examples, although there was still a slight poof of gas on some of the shots. I held a piece of target paper around the breech so I could cheek the stock tightly and not be affected, and saw no evidence of combustion products on the paper, so maybe it is just the air behind the leak that reaches the shooter. The sound of the shots varied, which indicates to me that the blanks are not loaded as consistently as they might be. I'll get some more chronograph data when time permits, and I'm sure a polite letter to the manufacturer, enclosing the data, explaining what I am doing with their products and asking for tighter QC in the future, will straighten this out in a jiffy:mrgreen:.

Next time I'll try cleaning more often, and also see if I can size the boolits down some. A 257420 with the gas check shank milled off the mould cavity might solve the tipping problem, but I don't have the heart to mess up my moulds that way.

[Chev. William]

You might consider carefully machining one cavity to remove the Gas check reduced diameter heel, making the Base of the bullet square cornered, flat, and of the same diameter as that of the bullet forward of the Gas Check area. This would minimally affect the weight cast and only affect the one cavity.
Depending upon the alloy used, the bullet should still be suitable for velocities to around 2000fps, according to what I have read.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

For further consideration: I ran across "Hunters Supply" who sell a 62.9 grain (measured sample) bullet of .258" as Cast diameter. Sizing the bullet down to .252 by the "kluge" method of chucking in a portable drill and using a mill file to gently reduce the base diameter to .252" resulted in a couple of bullets that fit my home formed .25 Stevens Long cases; but they had three 'notches' pressed into the nose contour, from the chuck jaws. I have ordered a Lee 'Lube and Size' push through sizing kit in .252" diameter, with the 60 day delivery promise, so eventually will be able to 'properly size these bullets for shooting trials.

Once the sizing die arrives, I will start considering any .257" nominal Bullets commercially available in the 65 to 70 grain weight range for trials. I already have .25ACP bullets of 35 to 50 grain weights to 'play with' that measure between .250" and .251" diameters; but most fo them are jacketed rather than Cast. The exceptions to date are "Carolina Cast Bullets" of nominal 50 grains, and "Hunters Supply" of nominal 63 grains.

IF you are willing to form your own .25 Stevens cases, you could make them into RF adapters by drilling and counterboring to fit a .22RF blank as either primer or primer plus propellant.
The .22 'starter' acorn shaped blanks would be the 'primer' type and use a separate powder charge behind the bullet. (Dixie gun Works sells machined adapters with off center pockets for the .22RF blank).
The .22 PTL blanks, currently available in Grades 1 through 4 generally and sometimes up to grade 6 would be the 'primer plus propellant types.
Grade 1 PTL blanks are listed presently on Amazon.com site as labeled "Simpson Strong Tie" and the box is marked that they are made by Winchester.

NOTE: in normal usage PTL blanks are fired with the internal Propellant positioned in the 'nose of the blank, away from the priming charge, which may explain the differences in the way they perform in your rifle as possibly due to varying propellant to primer positioning.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[slumlord44]

Got some sample 65 grain bullets from one of the members here who was nice enough to send me a few, both with and without gas checks. These are from the Lyman 257420 mold. Did a comparison with the Canuck factory rounds, 50 grain .25 ACP cast bullets, plain base and gas check Lyman bullets. These are at 25 yards from my Stevens 44 with double set triggers. Bore is good but not pristine. Need to try it with my Stevens 418 with a pristine bore and also run them all through an chronograph. The gas check 65 grain seems to be the most promising. Also need to go out to 50 yards.
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/slumlord44/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/D3679057-E4E7-4192-B401-617460F1CA96_zpslyj3jeei.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/user/slumlord44/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/D3679057-E4E7-4192-B401-617460F1CA96_zpslyj3jeei.jpg.html)
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/slumlord44/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/47194FBA-43F5-450F-8BF5-DB0D8E7C303D_zpsccdyjihk.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/user/slumlord44/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/47194FBA-43F5-450F-8BF5-DB0D8E7C303D_zpsccdyjihk.jpg.html)
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/slumlord44/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/8C2A20F1-DB57-46E4-B344-B18833D75CCF_zps57tf3irz.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/user/slumlord44/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/8C2A20F1-DB57-46E4-B344-B18833D75CCF_zps57tf3irz.jpg.html)
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/slumlord44/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/B97FD717-6C01-4A0E-B976-BE227DF4C74B_zpsnmtqiqvf.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/user/slumlord44/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07/B97FD717-6C01-4A0E-B976-BE227DF4C74B_zpsnmtqiqvf.jpg.html)

[Bent Ramrod]

Slumlord,

That is very encouraging! I haven't had a chance to get back to my rifle due to loading and practicing for the Quigley match and a backlog of other experiments when I got back. I went from 15 yards to 50; too much of a jump too fast perhaps.

I use the 257420 as well as the hollow point version. Haven't sized any down to .251" yet.

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the range reports! I was thinking that since the bullet, when inserted into the approx .280" diameter chamber, the base can be out of alignment with the bore by approx .011" (.280" -.258" = .022" dif x.5 = .011"). If there was some way to center up the base of the bullet so that it was in proper alignment with the bore, accuracy would improve.

A bullet with a .280" diameter base band would be interesting to try.
Perhaps paper patching the base of the bullet might work....or a sleeve in the chamber ....
or a tool that would hold the bullet centered while it was being placed in contact with the lands.


w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Musing on the subject of Breech seating a bullet that is not large enough to 'center itself' got me wondering if a selection of a suitable piece of Brass 'Telescopic Hobby Tubing' might wok to insert the bullet centered in the Chamber Bore?

Just a Thought.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Musing on the subject of Breech seating a bullet that is not large enough to 'center itself' got me wondering if a selection of a suitable piece of Brass 'Telescopic Hobby Tubing' might wok to insert the bullet centered in the Chamber Bore? Just a Thought.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

That or perhaps a fired .25 Stevens case with the head bored through.....

Another idea would be to use a .270 gas check (.277") annealed dead soft on the base of the bullet... That would be a pretty good squeeze in a .252 groovr though.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Why not a .257" Gas check?
Fully annealed it should have no problems squeezing through a .25 Bore.

[Chev. William]

I spent the last few days preparing parent cases For the .25 Stevens Family of cartridges.
These latest ones are made with my Current Set of tooling and I have modified some of them to be Rimfire adapters using my new Cutters/Tooling.

1. Started out with used R-P .22 Hornet Brass, Expanded the necks and shoulders to .250" inside diameter, then used my "RC" press, the .25ACP Carbide sizing die, and the 'RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit', with an added Fender Washer, to form the cases Full length, including 'coining' the rims down, to .25 Stevens Case diameters and rim thickness.

2. Trimmed a group of the parent cases to .25 Stevens Length (1.125" roughly), and using a Battery Drill Motor and a Fine Single Cut Mill File, finished the Rims to thickness and diameter (.346" to .348" diameter by .060" thick) to fit my Stevens Barrels chambered for the .25 Stevens Rf cartridge.

3. I then Set up my "#8 Cap screw combination Drill and Counterbore in my Drill Press over a Machinist Vise C-Clamped to the Press table positioned so a Case clamped in the Vise "V" would be centered under the Chuck and its Tool. The Drill/Counterbore needs slow feed as it is sharpened for Steel, not Brass, cutting. The Drill Press depth stop was used to limit counterbore depth to less than the rim thickness (depth of counterbore cut was set to about .040", leaving about .010" rim metal thicknes).

4. The same setup was used with a #2 Drill to open the case hole from about .179" to about .219".

5. The Same setup was used with a "Match Grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber reamer to open the through hole in the case head to fit 'Tightly' a .22 Blank.

6. Using a separate, smaller, Machinist Vise on my Loading Bench and the same Mill file, I cut a Firing pin Clearance slot in one side of the nearly finished adapter case rim.

7. I then deburred and smoothed the the 'finished' Adapter Case base and rim before primer/load was inserted.

8. Inserted a .22 Caliber Grade 1 Power Tool Load Blank and use dmy loading press to push it home in the Adapter, using a Dummy Chamber and the Stripper cup from the Swage Kit WITHOUT the Swage Punch.

9. Polished the finished loaded Adapter using the Battery Drill motor and a Green Scotchbrite pad.

These 'loaded' Blank adapter cases have the existing Grade 1 PTL powder loading of 1.31 Grains of flake, fast burning, powder and I intend to use them to verify I have enough Firing pin clearance to set them off in a Stevens Favorite Rifle fitted with a '22LR' Breech Block and a .25 Stevens Chambered Barrel.

Later, after reloading and reassembling the Stevens Favorite with a .25 Stevens RF Breech Block and the same .25 Stevens barrel, I will check the firing pin will fire the Blank, as my measurements appear to allow.

This series of tests will verify I can fire my Stevens Favorite with either a "CF" Breech Block, a ".22RF" Breech Block, or a ".25RF" Breech Block assembled in to my action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Spent Yesterday and this morning working to get my "PhotoBucket" account back and running again, in the process apparently lost the previously used links to the posted photos.

But I did get a new photo of my .25 Stevens RF/CF case forming project uploaded and titled so here is the link:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/25%20Stevens%20Family%20Cartridges%20Development/2014040713_Pictures003crop_zps1bbce0aa.jpg
This photo is a cropped detail of a larger image and shows: a fired .22PTL Blank (fired in one of the Adapter Cases I made); side and bottom views of the completed .25 Stevens CF case; bottom view of pilot drilled and counterbored RF case; bottom view of #2 Wire Size Drilled RF Case; Bottom view of Match Grade .22LR 'Freeland' chamber reamed RF Adapter Case; Side and bottom view of Adapter case with PTL blank inserted; side views of, in order .22 Caliber, Grade 1 (Gray) PTL, Grade 2 (Brown) PTL, Grade 3 (Green) PTL, and Grade 4 (Yellow) PTL Unfired Blanks.

NOTE: The RF Adapter Cases are shown with the residual Rim edge uncut for Firing Pin Tip Clearance. This cut MAY NOT be needed as there is a radial clearance between the RF Rim (.269" diameter) and the Inside Diameter of the Rebate (.290"+ diameter) and it may clear your firing pin tip 'overlap'. In any case, the 'notch' is easily made by holding the case upright in a small Machinists Vise, with a vertical 'V' in one jaw, and using a fine cut Mill File edge to work down the standing edge of the Adapter Rim to Flush with the face onto which the RF rim seats. This 'notch' need only be wide enough to afford clearance for your firing pin tip diameter so the full force of firing is taken by the RF rim being crushed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William