Preferred rifle bullet alloy/hardness for medium game?

[gpalma]

2/6/92?

9+1?

Lyman #2?

What is your preferred alloy for hunting deer/bear at muzzle velocities of 1300-1800fps for 100-250# critters within 100yds (and hopefully a LOT closer)?

[largom]

I use an alloy of 50/50 wheel weights and lead with about 2% tin added for most all of my hunting boolits.

Larry

[Larry Gibson]

What is your preferred alloy for hunting deer/bear at muzzle velocities of 1300-1800fps for 100-250# critters within 100yds (and hopefully a LOT closer)?

For those specifics I would use 16-1 lead/tin.

If pushing to 1900 - 2200+ fps I use OWWs + 2% tin and then mix 50/50 with lead as does Larry above.

Larry Gibson

[Djones]

95/3/2 air cooled Pb/Sb/Sn

[Blammer]

I like air cooled ww's in my 30-06.

[gpalma]

Have killed a ton of deer/bear/elk since '72 with muzzleloaders and most of those were with pure lead bullets from 45-58 caliber. If I were using one of those for big game, I can draw on enough field/range experience.

But, this whole cast bullet & smokeless powder thing is new to me. I do not cast bullets and likely never will. A friend makes 9+1 alloy bullets for my 375 Winchester in 250FB and 265CG varieties. I also have 265GC bullets from Montana Bullet (22Bhn - heat treated) and Western Bullet (have no idea of the alloy or hardness) as well as a 230FB bullet from BadMan Bullet (92/6/2 alloy at 15-17Bhn) that I would use strictly for deer/javelina. Somewhat undecided on which I want to sling at elk...but, it will be one of those 265GC bullets.

[TXGunNut]

I prefer ACWW's for simplicity's sake but most of my rifles seem to prefer a HT version of the 50/50 alloys listed above. I've used the HT'd 50/50 blend on critters with excellent results. Only reason I heat treat is to be able to (hopefully) break both shoulders on a big hog. Been working pretty well so far but I'm waaaay behind Larry in field-testing.

[williamwaco]

What is your preferred alloy for hunting deer/bear at muzzle velocities of 1300-1800fps for 100-250# critters within 100yds (and hopefully a LOT closer)?

For those specifics I would use 16-1 lead/tin.

If pushing to 1900 - 2200+ fps I use OWWs + 2% tin and then mix 50/50 with lead as does Larry above.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

What is an "O" wheel weight?

[725]

For ML's I us pure lead. Most everything else gets 50% / 50%, WW / lead. Sometimes I toss in a wee bit of linotype.

[MT Gianni]

50-50 lead/lino with lead/ww water dropped a close second.

[DLCTEX]

50/50 works for me in rifle and pistol.

[gpalma]

Larry Gibson, I was talking with my friend today and he says that he has some 20-1 lead/tin that he can cast for me. How could one expect that to expand (or survive) going through an elk shoulder or just the ribcage within 100yds, started out at say 1950fps?

[hickfu]

My alloy for the 45-70 is 3/1 COWW/Pure Lead with 1% pewter for fill out, Water quenched to 19 to 20 bhn, will take out shoulders on both sides and keep going... big hole in/big hole out and not very much meat damage.


Doc

[Changeling]

[QUOTE=The Real Doc Holliday;2666941]My alloy for the 45-70 is 3/1 COWW/Pure Lead with 1% pewter for fill out, Water quenched to 19 to 20 bhn, will take out shoulders on both sides and keep going... big hole in/big hole out and not very much meat damage.

I really liked the play on words "Pewter aka Tin", thats a Hard bullet and will devistate most all North American animals up to and including the bears and moose. Without BLOWING up complete shoulders/whatever with unneeded expansion.
There is NO way any animal with a 1 to 2 inch hole through its vitals can survive more than a minute or so. Blood pressure will go to "0", no oxygen/blood to the brain, so all normal functions will cease to exist!
Increasing descruction through HP's, will posibly hinder blood loss due to wound tissue slowing blood loss. However the shock factor that initiates miliseconds after the "Hit" can possibly cause a colapse of motor functions immediately putting the animal down.
I'll take a 25 yard run with a small amount of damage over a DRT with a completete shoulder wasted.

It will benefit all to really think about this.


On deer at the proper velocity I have no doubts it is extremely effective without massive meat distruction.
You know exactly what you are doing Doc, don't change!8-)

[dragon813gt]

I use 96/2/2. But I start w/ 96/3/1 and don't have to add much tin to reach 2%. The 50/50 mix w/ 2% works out to 97/1/2. My alloy just has a little more antimony but it's not brittle and expands properly.

[taco650]

Read this thread by goodsteel. He posted pics of his results with 50/50.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

[Ktmrider]

I know I'm new to this but what would the best way be to add the 2% tin to the mixture be? I just found a guy that has many many pounds of WW's and I just bought some from him for $.50 last week and I would like to be able to replicate this and give it a try. Because of this forum I have made my first bullets and this past weekend I made some what I consider amazing bullets out of the 50/50 mix from my NOE 358 200g RG mold, these suckers are to pretty to shoot!!! THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!

[largom]

Lead free solder is a good source for tin. You can strip off a piece and weigh it or just guess at the amount. Either way make notes so you can repeat later.

Larry

[Larry Gibson]

For ML's I us pure lead. Most everything else gets 50% / 50%, WW / lead. Sometimes I toss in a wee bit of linotype.

"O" or is that "doh":wink:

My thumbs sometimes get crisscrossed on this smart phone. .......:???:
Obviously supposed to be COWW.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson, I was talking with my friend today and he says that he has some 20-1 lead/tin that he can cast for me. How could one expect that to expand (or survive) going through an elk shoulder or just the ribcage within 100yds, started out at say 1950fps?

It will expand very well indeed. Question is; will it shoot accurately at 1900+ fps? Unless PP'd it probably won't unless the twist is slower.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

It will expand very well indeed. Question is; will it shoot accurately at 1900+ fps? Unless PP'd it probably won't unless the twist is slower.

Larry Gibson

Not only that but why would you want to? Cast lead is much more effective than most people give it credit for, and soft-ish boolits should not be shot into deer faster than 1900fps.
Sometimes more of a good thing is a bad thing.
Speaking strictly from a hunting point of view, 1800fps is easy to get good accuracy with without jumping through any hoops, and it also happens to be where it works best for harvesting venison.
Coincidence? I think not.
Personally, I think that in an average rifle caliber, 1800fps is the speed at which the boolit begins to be easily damaged by the environment it is being effected by (Ie: the barrel) and the environment it is having effect on (Ie: the game).
Push faster, and your barrel will start to have a detrimental effect on the boolit (unless certain measures are carefully taken) and the boolit will start to have more than desired effect on the game. All of this is caused by the strength of the alloy being tested to exhaustion.

[Larry Gibson]

Depends on where you hunt and the size of the " medium game". Where I hunt mule deer and white tails most shots can come out to 200 yards. Some out to 300 yards and occasionally farther on the open plains. When hunting with cast bullets I have previously restricted my max range to 200 yards. A cast bullet at 1950 - 2200+ fps will still have sufficient velocity to expand sufficiently for effective killing at 200 yards. The velocity also provides a trajectory flat enough to reduce range estimate errors.

When I hunt areas where shots could very well be farther than 200 yards I have used j bullets. However, as you are aware I have perfected the ability to push a good ternary alloyed cast bullet to 2600 fps and will probably achieve 2700 - 2900+ fps when you barrel my M98 with a 26" long 16" twist barrel chambered in 30x57. That will give me at least a 300 yard range on deer, antelope and coyote but more likely 400 yards. That will cover all of the game shooting opportunities I would encounter and I could use cast bullets all the time. Restricting myself to 1800 fps would severely limit the opportunities where I hunt.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Well, granted, I'm coming from an Arkansas state of mind.
My feeling is that a 358Winchester pushing a 200 grain cast boolit made of WD 50/50, at 1800fps is good to 150-200 yards, and if you see a deer further than that, you need to work on your sneakiness and woodsmanship.
In Arkansas, that's pretty much the way it is (heck, lots of people around here hunt with a beat up twice-bore LOL!)

My fear would be that preparing for an ideal 200 yard shot with a cast boolit would make an exploded deer at 50 yards a very real concern?
But heck, I'm no expert. Most of my deer are shot at 75 yards, and if I wanted a 200 yard shot, I would have to go looking for it.
If I ever make it out your way Larry, you'll have to let me have a taste of your style hunting. That would probably give me some perspective.

Still, seems like most folks across the world are in a similar situation to mine.

Now, all that said, I am trying to figure out this HS cast lead boolit thing, but for me, its more of a scientific experiment than anything else, because I don't need all that speed. I'd just like to be able to do it.

[Larry Gibson]

Please don't get me wrong, 1800 fps is certainly quite adequate for hunting in a lot of places. Hunting from stands as I did in Texas would be the place for me in the near future.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Please don't get me wrong, 1800 fps is certainly quite adequate for hunting in a lot of places. Hunting from stands as I did in Texas would be the place for me in the near future.

Larry Gibson
You should come hunt with me here in Arkansas.
We just ZipTie a corncob to the end of the barrel and when all the munching wakes you up, you click off the safety and pull the trigger. LOL!

[dragon813gt]

You should come hunt with me here in Arkansas.
We just ZipTie a corncob to the end of the barrel and when all the munching wakes you up, you click off the safety and pull the trigger. LOL!
That isn't much different then how I hunt. My stand is set up on the edge of a cornfield. They deer just make their rounds and well you know the rest. All my kills have been at archery range. Still hunting and spot and stalk aren't an option around here due to population density. A 100 yard shot would be a long one. I really need to get out west to experience that type of hunting.

[superior]

Here is what air cooled, clip on WW did at 50 yards. This is the entrance wound.
45 Colt .. Lee 300. 19.5 gr. 2400 ... I don't have a clue what the velocity was. 98785

[pls1911]

Soft as-cast alloy, heat treated rock hard.
What I get is a hard but NOT BRITTLE bullet which can be shot with confidence to 2100fps, even in Micro groove barrels, but with an alloy which retains enough malleability to NOT break up on impact like linotype when impacted or an animal.

[taco650]

Here is what air cooled, clip on WW did at 50 yards. This is the entrance wound.
45 Colt .. Lee 300. 19.5 gr. 2400 ... I don't have a clue what the velocity was. 98785

Was it DRT?

[jhalcott]

I guess that's the exit hole. You were probably only getting 900 FPS from a 6=7" revolver in .45 Colt. That much lead at that speed SEEMS to be all you need!

[runfiverun]

experiencing long shots out here ain't all it's cracked up to be.
traipsing all over a mountain range for 2 weeks and maybe getting a shot at 3-400 yds isn't all that fun.
if you haul a rifle that's capable of making that 400 yd shot you are too damn tired from toting it to make the 3 second decision and settle in.
you guy's watch too much T.V.
but anyone in the area come October is more than welcome to bring their back-pack, and a rifle.

[SlippShodd]

experiencing long shots out here ain't all it's cracked up to be.
traipsing all over a mountain range for 2 weeks and maybe getting a shot at 3-400 yds isn't all that fun.
if you haul a rifle that's capable of making that 400 yd shot you are too damn tired from toting it to make the 3 second decision and settle in.
you guy's watch too much T.V.
but anyone in the area come October is more than welcome to bring their back-pack, and a rifle.

LOL. 300 yards, line of sight. 1/4 mile of rocks and sagebrush down, 1/4 mile of rocks and sagebrush back up to him if he's DRT. And now you're 3 of those draws and a mile and a half back to the truck.
I keep saying I'm going to put in for a doe tag so I can just go shoot one in the stackyard with my pistol and spend the rest of deer season fishing.

mike

[marlinman80]

For the last 4 years i have used a 150 grain lee gas checked bullet in 30-30 made out of range lead behind 32 grains of reloader 15 at 2000 fps. Weight with lube and gas check is 168 grains. I have killed 12 deer with this load and it is devastating. it gets full expansion .60-.750 caliber 5 have remained in the carcass and 7 pass thrus. I don't see any reason to change things. heart and lungs are normaly pulped by this cartridge. I shot a 9 point 190 lb buck last year head on in the breast plate and the bullet was in the rear left ham 1" from the hide.

[gpalma]

I can purchase a .379" flat base bullet in a 230gr or 250gr with a 96/2/2 alloy. With a .060" poly wad under the 230gr I can get very good accy in the 1870-1940fps range. Have not fired the 250gr bullets, but I suspect that I can drive them in the 1700fps range. Either bullet would cover medium game to 250# at distances inside 150yds.

My real dilemma is for elk within 100yds. I currently can buy 265GC bullets (.379") in a 96/2/2 alloy (Western Bullet) and the same alloy that is heat-treated (have 500 from Montana Bullet) that I can drive in the 1930-2015fps range with very good accy. A friend can make up that same bullet for me in a 9+1 alloy or he said he can make some up in a 20:1 lead/tin alloy. My concern is that if I must take a shoulder going in...will the bullet hold up (if he's at 20yds) and it he's out at 100yds (classic double-lung broadside shot), that I do not just core a 3/8" hole through his ribcage like a FMJ bullet.

[MT2DAY]

looking for information on bullet speed and hardness.. at what hardness will bullets resist shattering? or another way to put it what is the hardest bullet to use for hunting?

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Another vote for 50-50. It seems to do all I need. Expands, pushes through, makes a descent exit hole and is accurate to boot. One 180 grain caliber .30 costs maybe 3 cents. What more can I ask.
Mike in Peru

[Pilgrim]

Hardness really isn't the right question. The alloy determines the brittleness, or lack thereof. WW or WW + Pb whether heat treated or not isn't going to shatter when it impacts game. Linotype is more brittle than the aforementioned alloys, but even linotype doesn't always shatter from what I have read. You don't need linotype for any use as a boolit as far as I know. If you need a BHN in the range of linotype (22 BHN), you can get it with heat treated WW or WW + Pb without the brittleness of linotype. Linotype is best used as a source of tin and/or antimony in an alloy with pure Pb. As far as performance on game is concerned, find the alloy that gives you the velocity and accuracy you need, and go hunting! A very soft alloy will expand like crazy and destroy a fair amount of meat if it hits bone on the way thru the critter. An WW + 2% Sn, air cooled will give you a BHN in the vicinity of 14/15, and depending on boolit fit, barrel condition (smoothness) you can fairly easily exceed 2000 fps and this boolit will pass clean thru an elk and exit, or at least stop under the skin on the other side of the critter. Anyway FWIW....Pilgrim

[clintsfolly]

I find that I have moved from AC ww to Lyman#2. It's easy to make and casts like a dream plus all the deer can not tell the differences. Have used it in 30/06,9.3x62 and 458AccRel . Just work long a go and now. Clint

[Hardcast416taylor]

Larry,

What is an "O" wheel weight?


Probably like me, "O" meaning OLD!Robert

[taco650]

I'll be sticking with WC WW/range scrap mix 'cuz that's what I've got and it shoots good from my guns.

[Grendel99]

I guess that's the exit hole. You were probably only getting 900 FPS from a 6=7" revolver in .45 Colt. That much lead at that speed SEEMS to be all you need!

He says it's the ENTRANCE, I would like to see the exit! In my .44 Mag with 20 grains of 2400 under a 280gr bullet, I was getting around 1250+ fps out of a 7.5 inch barrel. It's hard to tell from the picture, but did you spine that deer right above the guts?

I don't have a lot of experience with cast bullets but at magnum handgun velocities (1200-1400 fps) ACWW's with a little tin added has done very well on deer using Keith SWC's and Devastator HP's. All exits except one head on shot and the bullet went all the way through and was found in his back leg after going through the entire deer.