FN vs. RN cast bullets for hunting?

[GooseGestapo]

Over the years, I've killed a number of deer with cast bullets, but all to date have been with flat-nose bullets. Ranging from .22 50gr FNGC (head-shots with a .22Hornet @ 2,100fps; deer that were trapped in confined areas or injured while I was a cons. officer) to .45cal (muzzleloader and .45/70). Also with .357mag and SWC's.

I have used round-ball buckshot and found that the hard cast buckshot significantly out-performs the soft chilled or swaged buckshot.

From those that have experience, how well does a blunt round-nose (not spitzer as Lee .309" 155gr Pt'd GC) such as the Lee .338 220gr RNGC, or Lee .311" 200gr RNGC perform relative to a similar flat-nose ?
Is it worth the trouble to grind/file flat or drill hollow-point? Assume similar alloy's.

[btroj]

Speed matters.
For lower velocity in a 30 cal I want a flat nose. For velocities over 2000 fps or so I don't know that it matters as much.

My personal view is that diameter, shape, alloy, and velocity on impact all need to be balanced.

[Bullshop Junior]

A flat nose will be more effective. If you don't believe me, go do some lung shots on rabbits with a 22, start with round nose, then file a small flat on the tip and try that.

[JeffinNZ]

A flat nose will be more effective. If you don't believe me, go do some lung shots on rabbits with a 22, start with round nose, then file a small flat on the tip and try that.

I absolutely agree. Even a RN .32-20 bullet at rimfire velocity is not a brilliant stopper on small game. FN levels them.

[jhalcott]

One time a few years ago, my buddy asked the same question. I took a .35 whelen, some gallon jugs and a box of ammo to the range. We hung the water filled jugs at 100 yards. He was on the spotter, I did the shooting. The first bullet, a round nose 200 grainer, went THRU the jug and barely moved it. I filed a flat nose on the second round and shot the same jug that was dripping some water out the bullet hole. The jug exploded when the bullet hit it! The top went about 40 feet in the air and the jug was split into several pieces! I've seen deer have similar reactions to RN bullets at around 2000 fps impacts, they just look around for the noise. then walk off. The reaction to a FN or HP bullet is very different, and they seldom make it 30 yards.

[fouronesix]

This will be debated to the end of guns.

If you examine solids designed for penetration, almost without exception, they will have a flat nose. Woodleigh makes what they call a hydrostatically stabilized solid that has a rebated shallow cup on the nose to achieve straight line penetration similar to the function of the flat nose design. Those designs ARE NOT for expending energy along the wound channel. They're for helping maintain straight line penetration. If you have examined cast bullets NO MATTER IF THEY STARTED OUT FN OR RN, that have been recovered from animals, that have a minimum, modest impact velocity (normal ranges) out of standard rifles you'll usually notice either a flattened nose or ablated flattened nose. Actually, the round nose, if the impact velocity is high enough and the alloy soft enough, will flatten within a very short distance of the entry anyway. A flat nose of course will already be flattened when it enters but consider, all other things equal like alloy and muzzle velocity, that it will get to the target at a slightly lower velocity, with less momentum and energy and with a slightly loopier trajectory. Personally, I'll take penetration over shallow impact obturation if given a choice and use an alloy appropriate for the job. Nose shape, RN or FN, would be way down my the list for bullet design detail to control terminal performance with a cast bullet.

High quality controlled expansion Jbullets attempt to balance terminal performance within a certain range of impact velocities and the same should hold true for monolithic cast bullets. The idea with the cast bullet being the balance between alloy and impact velocity. The arguments of the super wide flat nose folks are usually accompanied by such anecdotal evidence of effectiveness as "thump", "whack" or some such highly scientific verbiage. :roll: Actually, why not just call that bullet design a modified wadcutter. But wadcutter doesn't sound very cool- so "Thor's Hammer" or "Hog Thumper" it is. The discussions sometimes take on the sounds of the subtitles in a Batman cartoon.

Of course for maximizing load potential and for fit of a heavy bullet in a limited OAL platform, it's sometimes necessary to design the bullet with a big fat nose to maximize the weight to length ratio if bullet mass and case capacity are the objectives of the load. Tube magazines also require a fat round or flat nose for obvious reasons.

I think the flattened (or cut-off with a knife) 22 rf bullet thing has been around at least 50+ years. I tried it of course... 52 years ago to be exact. All I found was that accuracy (the key ingredient for cleanly killing small game with a 22 rf) went south and the hits I got revealed no difference between them and a regular RN. I even tried to cut an X in the nose to increase the "thump". Hah!

[youngda9]

FN dumps more energy to the game than a RN. It's quite obvious.

[BruceB]

Allow me to point out, as well, that it's quite simple to make a cast bullet with a PURE-LEAD nose and harder shank. Such a soft nose will expand well regardless of its initial shape, while the shank will tend to retain its shape for penetration.

Kynoch in Britain has been making round-nose "solids" for generations and have not yet decided to change their ways (as far as I know). These were the legendary bullets and cartridges used on heavy African game for over 100 years..... and they are still used today. Never say "Never", and never say "Always."

It's possible that Kynoch may be out-sourcing some of their bullets today. Even back in the 1970s, I bought some Boxer-primed Kynoch .404 factory loads and the boxes said "Made in England With Some Swedish Components" I never did find out WHICH components came from Sweden, but I suspected the cases. Those Kynoch solids were round-noses and had VERY heavy steel jackets.... I recovered a number that had only rifling marks after impacting hard sandbanks.

[quilbilly]

FN dumps more energy to the game than a RN. It's quite obvious. I quite agree but one thing I have noted with the round nose CB's I have tested for terminal ballistics is that the RN's tend to tumble after a few inches making a vicious wound channel. That was particularly true of the Lee 30 cal. 160 gr. RNGC but also of a Lyman Loverin style 6mm 87 gr boolit. The tests were done at 40 yards. The MV of the 30 cal was 1600 and yielded 16" of penetration in soaked phone books and the MV was 1900 yielding a penetration of 14-1/2". The wound channels in both far exceeded the length (!!) of the boolit. Nevertheless, one of the reason I prefer shooting patched round ball when ML deer hunting is that they deposit all of the energy on target.

[Three44s]

On small critters a RN would be very deficient.

I once shot a gray digger ....... ground squirrel at close range with a lead RN in .357.

My father asked: What of the "mighty 357?"

The squirrel humped up and ran off sideways!

It's a good thing he wasn't in "attack mode"!!!

Best regards

Three 44s

[Slow Elk 45/70]

[smilie=1: We all have an idea about what works best...I think we are talking about Animals,
The idea about what is best, has a number of factors, large bore /small bore, velocity, what kind of boolit material you use, What you are shooting at, elk, bear, deer, rabbit, gopher, on and on.
IMHO , I'll take a form of flat point and as soft an alloy that performs a quick kill. I have tracked my share of game shot through the lungs that did little to slow the animal down, I have a couple of buddy's that think this is the only way:(:( to each his own, use what ever trips your trigger.[smilie=1::Fire:

[RugerFan]

I've shot a few deer and hogs in GA with the round nose Lyman 311291 out of a .308 Win. Wound cavitation was significant and animals went no further than those taken with flat nosed bullets out of a .358 Win. These were all hard cast boolits (@ 2000 fps) that likely expanded little. I would not hesitate to shoot big game with round nose boolits in the future.

[GooseGestapo]

Thanks RugerFan. Thats what I was thinking. I've got FN and RN gascheck boolits and wasn't too sure that it was worth the effort to alter the tips.
I've got some excellent RN bullets, specifically those two mentioned and they consistently out-shoot some other flat-nose boolits. Specifically, I was wanting to try my M1 Garand with a load I worked up for reduced range matches (200yds) and It shoots as accurately as service grade ammo besides operating the gas automatic. (38.5gr H4895 w/200gr RNGC for 2,000fps). This same load is near 1moa from my Colt Lt.Rifle and I wasn't sure that it would expand/perform acceptably on deer for shots to ~125yds.

In retrospect, the performace of the buckshot should reassure me as I've gotten very satisfactory results from a 10pellet load of .31" round-ball from my 20ga shotshell loads.

Most likely, I'll be using the 220gr .338" RNGC from my .338MarlinExpress. With 40.0gr of RL15 it gets 2,000fps and nearly duplicates the accuracy of the 200gr FTX bullet.

Thanks for the replys.

[jhalcott]

I found BruceB's SOFT nose (RN or pointy style) to be VERY effective on deer and similar critters out to 250 yards. The main difference being a FLATTER trajectory and increased terminal velocity. A FLAT nosed bullet drops more and slows quicker, making long shots a bit more IFFY!
I STILL prefer a FN for most of MY HUNTING, proper alloy and speed of course.

[Beerd]

......... why do so many .35 Whelen shooters have such a fascination with the Lyman 358009?
..

[Three44s]

Ross Seyfried wrote a great article on soft nosed cast bullets several years ago ...... though I have not tried it yet, I have been planning on it.

His write up on it was very convincing ....... Another +1 for soft nosed


Three 44s

[jhalcott]

Beerd, it the old HEAVY for caliber bullet thing casters have been going with forever! MOST casters use as heavy a bullet as they can get. It does make some sense as the weight will carry a heavy slug farther thru an animal than a lighter one at much higher velocity. Accuracy,though, trumps all! A lighter bullet (boolit) that penetrates the heart is as good as the heavy one that blows on thru the critter! That is a PERSONAL OPINION of mine!

[pls1911]

My head hurts... I think folks are over thinking the issue,. BOTH bullet styles perform well when the shooter does his part.
I use both in .30 and .45 calibers and must admit, the resounding SLAP factor is cool. and makes converts easily.

[Alferd Packer]

This will be debated to the end of guns.

If you examine solids designed for penetration, almost without exception, they will have a flat nose. Woodleigh makes what they call a hydrostatically stabilized solid that has a rebated shallow cup on the nose to achieve straight line penetration similar to the function of the flat nose design. Those designs ARE NOT for expending energy along the wound channel. They're for helping maintain straight line penetration. If you have examined cast bullets NO MATTER IF THEY STARTED OUT FN OR RN, that have been recovered from animals, that have a minimum, modest impact velocity (normal ranges) out of standard rifles you'll usually notice either a flattened nose or ablated flattened nose. Actually, the round nose, if the impact velocity is high enough and the alloy soft enough, will flatten within a very short distance of the entry anyway. A flat nose of course will already be flattened when it enters but consider, all other things equal like alloy and muzzle velocity, that it will get to the target at a slightly lower velocity, with less momentum and energy and with a slightly loopier trajectory. Personally, I'll take penetration over shallow impact obturation if given a choice and use an alloy appropriate for the job. Nose shape, RN or FN, would be way down my the list for bullet design detail to control terminal performance with a cast bullet.

High quality controlled expansion Jbullets attempt to balance terminal performance within a certain range of impact velocities and the same should hold true for monolithic cast bullets. The idea with the cast bullet being the balance between alloy and impact velocity. The arguments of the super wide flat nose folks are usually accompanied by such anecdotal evidence of effectiveness as "thump", "whack" or some such highly scientific verbiage. :roll: Actually, why not just call that bullet design a modified wadcutter. But wadcutter doesn't sound very cool- so "Thor's Hammer" or "Hog Thumper" it is. The discussions sometimes take on the sounds of the subtitles in a Batman cartoon.

Of course for maximizing load potential and for fit of a heavy bullet in a limited OAL platform, it's sometimes necessary to design the bullet with a big fat nose to maximize the weight to length ratio if bullet mass and case capacity are the objectives of the load. Tube magazines also require a fat round or flat nose for obvious reasons.

I think the flattened (or cut-off with a knife) 22 rf bullet thing has been around at least 50+ years. I tried it of course... 52 years ago to be exact. All I found was that accuracy (the key ingredient for cleanly killing small game with a 22 rf) went south and the hits I got revealed no difference between them and a regular RN. I even tried to cut an X in the nose to increase the "thump". Hah!




This reply should probably go under "tools I have made."
Wanting to accurately file a flat on my round nose rimfire .22's, I cut a piece of one inch mild steel bar just long enough so that a hole bored thru the steel endwise would allow a little over a sixteenth of the round nose lead bullet to project. I also couterbored a recess on the bottom so the rimfire shell could be seated flush with the bottom surface.
{I borrowed the idea for this tool from Paco Kelly who markets just such a tool although one of my Mom's Uncles made one of these in the 1930's to put meplats on his .22 rimfires for hunting.He was an oldtime Machinist and Blacksmith.}
The rimfire wouldn't be set off (hopefully) when I filed on the slightly projecting bullet nose. You only need a tiny flat meplat (flat spot on the nose) to make a hi-speed .22 really flatten your game. I have made these filing steel bullet gauges for other round nose bullets I cast. For a .32 -77 grain round nose LYMAN bullet I cast for my .32 Colt auto pistol. It will knock over rabbits with authority, whereas before, that round nose bullet just drilled holes in them and they kept going..That .32 is probably a little better for defense, than it was before. Those .32 flat noses still shoot thru a rabbit, but they also bowl them over and they just lie there and kick a little. Before, they kept going and probably died down in the hole. Those flat nose 77 grainer .32's also shoot from a 30-06 with a couple grains of Bullseye too. Don't need them for that because I have the LEE bullet mold for the 32-20 in 113 grain flatnose-which is good for my 30-30, .308, .30-06. and .32 H&R Ruger pistola. That bullet is just a tad too big lengthwise to be used in the 1903 Colt auto pistol, thus the 77 grain bullet with a small meplat filed on the nose.
No, if you cut the rimfire noses off with a hunting knife, or wire cutter pliers, it will be too inaccurate to use. Too crude. No wonder it didn't work. One more thing, Never file noses of jacketed military bullets with lead open bases . The lead cores can blow out and leave the jackets in your barrel.
Hope this helps someone.

[waksupi]

This reply should probably go under "tools I have made."
Wanting to accurately file a flat on my round nose rimfire .22's, I cut a piece of one inch mild steel bar just long enough so that a hole bored thru the steel endwise would allow a little over a sixteenth of the round nose lead bullet to project. I also couterbored a recess on the bottom so the rimfire shell could be seated flush with the bottom surface.
{I borrowed the idea for this tool from Paco Kelly who markets just such a tool although one of my Mom's Uncles made one of these in the 1930's to put meplats on his .22 rimfires for hunting.He was an oldtime Machinist and Blacksmith.}
The rimfire wouldn't be set off (hopefully) when I filed on the slightly projecting bullet nose. You only need a tiny flat meplat (flat spot on the nose) to make a hi-speed .22 really flatten your game. I have made these filing steel bullet gauges for other round nose bullets I cast. For a .32 -77 grain round nose LYMAN bullet I cast for my .32 Colt auto pistol. It will knock over rabbits with authority, whereas before, that round nose bullet just drilled holes in them and they kept going..That .32 is probably a little better for defense, than it was before. Those .32 flat noses still shoot thru a rabbit, but they also bowl them over and they just lie there and kick a little. Before, they kept going and probably died down in the hole. Those flat nose 77 grainer .32's also shoot from a 30-06 with a couple grains of Bullseye too. Don't need them for that because I have the LEE bullet mold for the 32-20 in 113 grain flatnose-which is good for my 30-30, .308, .30-06. and .32 H&R Ruger pistola. That bullet is just a tad too big lengthwise to be used in the 1903 Colt auto pistol, thus the 77 grain bullet with a small meplat filed on the nose.
No, if you cut the rimfire noses off with a hunting knife, or wire cutter pliers, it will be too inaccurate to use. Too crude. No wonder it didn't work. One more thing, Never file noses of jacketed military bullets with lead open bases . The lead cores can blow out and leave the jackets in your barrel.
Hope this helps someone.

I made the same kind of tool, then case hardened it so the file wouldn't wear the surface.

[hickfu]

98532

Heavy Flat Nose!!!



Doc

[Blammer]

thar ain't no room for powder or a primer on that one...

[hickfu]

Hard to get that one in the 1911.... 542gr 22bhn .460 made for when I go up to Alaska to my sisters property, she got caught between a mama and her cubs a couple years back and luckily only got a false charge... I would have shot!


Doc