Hard Loading

[koehlerrk]

Cast a bunch of Lee 50 cal Modern Minie boolets and while they shoot great from my TC Black Diamond, loading them is a major workout. Yes, it's the "fast twist" 1:28 barrel and I'm using white-hot pellets. It doesn't matter if it's the first shot or the fifth, it's still a bear to push them in. They're cast from pure lead and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, Bore Butter, and a 50/50 crisco/beeswax mix. Nothing seems to help, and using sabots is awful expensive for letting my son shoot paper.

Should I get a Lee sizer die and size them down a few thousandths? With the hollow base I know they'll seal on firing. So, how much should I reduce them? Bore diameter minus 2 thou, 5 thou, try another alloy, try a different lube? Any ideas are appreciated.

Rick

[johnson1942]

size them down 2 thousands as that is what the finished size they would be if they were paperpatched. now also when you size them down 2 thousands you can roll them back a forth between two sharp clean flat flat files and knarl them up some and then lube them with alox. knarled bullets go down alot easier as they are honey combed looking. also you could size them down 8 thousands and paperpatch them 2 wraps with number nine onion skin paper, dry wrapped and that would work also. i paperpatched that bullet once just to see if it would work and they really shot well. another thing i shoot sabots for fun as mmp sabots sell them in bulk with a 20 percent discount on bulk orders and their shipping is free. i have two guns i shoot them in as i make my own bullets and buy 500 at a time from mmp sabots. my sabot guns are really accurate, the one shoots a .456 grain .458 diam bullet and the other will shoot a .40 diam 250 grain bullet. its sounds like your doing everything perfect but your bore must be right on tight. you will really enjoy shooting with your son when you get it figured out what to feed it and keep going untill you do.

[idahoron]

I am thinking that you "pure" lead might not be that pure. If you don't have a hardness tester or know anyone that has one you can send me a couple and I will test them for you. Ron

[johnson1942]

ron, i think your on to something as pure lead shouldnt be a problem. i bet thats it.

[BrassMagnet]

They do sound like they are hard cast.

If they are hardened with antimony, they might not expand and seal the bore properly.

Clip on Wheel Weights are 0.5% tin and 3% antimony. Brinell hardness of 12.

Stick on wheel weights should be 0.25% tin and the rest pure lead. Brinell hardness of 6.

Range lead 0.17% tin and 1% antimony on average. Brinell hardness of 10.

Pure lead. Brinell hardness of 5.

So if your lead has a little tin it will be easier to cast, but not much harder.

If you have as little as 1% antimony, it will be about twice as hard.

[dikman]

I accidentally cast some .451 balls for my Remmie revolver from (pistol) range scrap. They were mixed in with the pure balls, unbeknown to me. I was reloading at the range, rammed the first three down ok but number 4 stuck solid, half in/half out of the chamber!! A lesson about just how a little extra hardness in a boolit can be a problem. (I re-melted the whole batch).

So before you do anything else, cast a couple from a known pure lead and try loading them.

[mooman76]

I had the same problem with them. they come out too big is the problem. They are suppose to be slightly under sized and are not plus for me they were a few thousandths over sized(according to the mould size) so I kind of gave up on them. If they are that hard to load I figured I might as well use maxis.

[koehlerrk]

I am thinking that you "pure" lead might not be that pure. If you don't have a hardness tester or know anyone that has one you can send me a couple and I will test them for you. Ron

Well, these were cast from a batch of old lead pipe that I had gotten, so that "should" have been pure lead. They are definitely softer than my pistol bullets that I cast from isotope cores.

No, I don't have a lead hardness tester (yet). Been thinking that I really do need one, will likely order one soon. In any case, it might be nice to have someone else measure them too, so I know if I'm doing it right. Shoot me a PM and I'll mail you a few. Do you want me to do the icky job of de-lubing them first?

Thanks everyone, you've given me some great ideas to pursue. I'll chase them down and report back.

Rick

[BrassMagnet]

Sounds like your alloy is good. You may have a mould dimension issue. Lee, Lyman, & RCBS have all had that issue. Send me some and I will see what I can do with them.
As is, where is, and in their current condition is fine! The more the merrier!

[mooman76]

Mine drop at .502/3. I used near pure lead from house flashing. You can mail a couple to me if you like and I'll measure them.

[Omnivore]

Lee says their 50 cal Minies drop at .500". I'd first want to know if that were true in your case.

A pair of half-way decent dial calipers isn't expensive.

I'd also want to know the bore (land) diameter of the barrel in question. Knowing those two things for sure would go a long way. If your barrel has an even number of lands and grooves, it's pretty easy to slug the bore and measure the slug. Drop a length of loose-fitting brass rod into the bore, and stuff in one of those Minies nose-first (so your brass rod doesn't get stuck in the hollow base). Then use the brass rod to shake-pound out the slug and measure the diameter across the grooves engraved in it by the barrel's lands.

If the mold drops oversized, let Lee know about it, and ask for a replacement that will hold to their published spec.
If your barrel bore is smaller than .500 for some reason, then you'll have to find a different mold, or custom order a mold, or size your boolits.

You probably are already aware of this, but if there are any burrs, or any particles or shavings of lead and whatnot, between the mold halves that'll spread the mold and cause it to drop over-sized lead. This happens to all molds sooner or later, usually sooner. I had a pair of handles once that would touch at the back end of the wood and not allow the mold to close with any presure at all. My easy fix was to file the wood until there was space between the handles with the mold closed.

[Freightman]

I have a CVA Hawken .50 that will not load the Lee minie But a CVA Frontier that will and accurate in the Frontier. bought a .501 Lee seizer and it will load in the Hawken but not as easy as in the Frontier.

[wgr]

I have 3 diff. t.c. rifles and they all have tite bores. Even maxie balls load hard out of soft lead.

[idahoron]

Well, these were cast from a batch of old lead pipe that I had gotten, so that "should" have been pure lead. They are definitely softer than my pistol bullets that I cast from isotope cores.

No, I don't have a lead hardness tester (yet). Been thinking that I really do need one, will likely order one soon. In any case, it might be nice to have someone else measure them too, so I know if I'm doing it right. Shoot me a PM and I'll mail you a few. Do you want me to do the icky job of de-lubing them first?

Thanks everyone, you've given me some great ideas to pursue. I'll chase them down and report back.

Rick

DOn't worry about the lube I will handle it and get a measurement on them. I sent you a message to send me a couple. Lead pipe is normally soft BUT, and that is a BIG BUT. If you melted the joints into the mix that will increase the hardness. I did this by accident and ended up with lead that was 9 BHN. It depends on how many joints are melted in. Joints are solder and tend to be hard. Ron

[tomme boy]

Something is wrong. I have 5 muzzleloaders. 4 T/C and 1 CVA. They all load fine with the Lee 250 gr and the 350 gr REAL bullets. I had a Lee mini ball mold and they would just fall all the way down the barrels on all of them. I had to flair the skirts on them so they would not fall out. They were never really very accurate. The REALs on the other hand are very accurate. I would get rid of the minie mold and buy a 250 gr REAL mold.

[koehlerrk]

Thanks everyone, much appreciated. Idahoron and BrassMagnet, you two can expect some mail. To everyone else who offered their services via PM, thank you, but I think these two gents can do what I need to have done. I'm greatly impressed at how willing to help folks here are, thank you.

I'll have to find my box of ML boolits, they're currently buried in my garage as I'm re-working it for a new loading bench. I'll measure some, post that here, and mail some to you two gentlemen. I'll also slug the bore on the Black Diamond.

Thanks again!

Rick

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

this is why everyone like as different patch thickness , one guy thinks a .490 and a .010 is great the next guy thinks , .015 is the ticket , the next .018 or .020 is the only thing that makes them happy

.002 more lubed fabric is a lot more forgiving than lead , the R.E.A.L uses relatively thin bands so that you displace less lead but makes them well over sized so that they can be pushed into a lot of barrels

I actually made up a bunch of R.E.A.L boolits from strait WW air cooled and they loaded fine if I wiped the barrel with a moist patch first , i had to give them a good whack with the short starter but after that they slid down just fine , it has a lot to do with design

I have thought about having the rifling turned out of some of my barrels for the last half inch with a nice taper to make loading easier , i think .520 back bore would get reals to sit in nice and strait then be pushed down.

I wonder how much this would cost

[BrassMagnet]

I have thought about having the rifling turned out of some of my barrels for the last half inch with a nice taper to make loading easier , i think .520 back bore would get reals to sit in nice and strait then be pushed down.

I wonder how much this would cost

The following comments are tongue in cheek, but somewhat accurate never the less! Please don't be offended!

You can put a nice taper on the last bit of rifling in your barrel by cleaning it sloppily with a steel cleaning rod. You can switch to brass, wood, or fiberglass when it is tapered enough.
All it will cost you is the price of a new barrel when you decide you actually want to hit your target!

Now, all joking aside. A single ding in the crown (Rifling at the end of your barrel) can destroy all accuracy for that rifle. Re-crowning the muzzle can restore the accuracy.
You can put more wear and tear on a barrel through too much cleaning or poor cleaning techniques than you can shooting the same barrel. Many surplus military rifle's accuracy has been destroyed through cleaning with a steel rod and not using a bore guide to protect the barrel from muzzle erosion.

[randyrat]

I had an old Lyman maxi ball mold that cast just a bit larger than I needed and they loaded real hard...Solution- I rolled them between two flat heavy pieces of iron and then they loaded fine all day long after that...Then I sold it and bought a different mold, this one cast just perfect..

There is a trick to rolling the boolit and you get good at it with practice. Roll it just a little at a time until you get good at it and you also may want to just roll the base, anyway practice makes a perfect boolit that shoots perfect.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

The following comments are tongue in cheek, but somewhat accurate never the less! Please don't be offended!

You can put a nice taper on the last bit of rifling in your barrel by cleaning it sloppily with a steel cleaning rod. You can switch to brass, wood, or fiberglass when it is tapered enough.
All it will cost you is the price of a new barrel when you decide you actually want to hit your target!

Now, all joking aside. A single ding in the crown (Rifling at the end of your barrel) can destroy all accuracy for that rifle. Re-crowning the muzzle can restore the accuracy.
You can put more wear and tear on a barrel through too much cleaning or poor cleaning techniques than you can shooting the same barrel. Many surplus military rifle's accuracy has been destroyed through cleaning with a steel rod and not using a bore guide to protect the barrel from muzzle erosion.


right but what i was talking about was a recessed crown , intentionally cut to leave an over bore area of about a half inch so that the rod doesn't touch the crown

I have shot one like this they were still just as accurate but much easier to load as you could thumb the ball and patch into the barrel , then run it down there was no short starting it while it was perched on the muzzle , it was hard to get a conical in crooked if it was already 3/4 of the way in the barrel strait before it met resistance

[OverMax]

FWIW: I suspect your White Hots are fouling the barrel more than you think. You might be better off giving Black Horn powder a try. Heard some good words about its use concerning shooter reload-ability.

[koehlerrk]

right but what i was talking about was a recessed crown , intentionally cut to leave an over bore area of about a half inch so that the rod doesn't touch the crown

I have shot one like this they were still just as accurate but much easier to load as you could thumb the ball and patch into the barrel , then run it down there was no short starting it while it was perched on the muzzle , it was hard to get a conical in crooked if it was already 3/4 of the way in the barrel strait before it met resistance

Actually, the Black Diamond has exactly that setup at the muzzle... helps to start sabots straight. It's after that starting section that it's much harder to ram one down vs. the Hawken.



FWIW: I suspect your White Hots are fouling the barrel more than you think. You might be better off giving Black Horn powder a try. Heard some good words about its use concerning shooter reload-ability.

Well, I can certainly try that... been wondering if Blackhorn would light in the sidelock Hawken... since Ye Holy Black is getting harder and harder to get here in NY.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

everyone bore size is jut a little different , you may need to try smaller sabots or size down the bullet your putting in the sabot , try just putting a sabot down with no bullet on a charge , how does it go down ? if it slides down fine on a clean barrel then try a smaller bullet in the sabot see if sizing it down a bit helps.

if your not cleaning between shots my experience with tight sabots or conicals is that you will get about 3 shots the have to clean or hammer them down

when i take my front stuffers hunting i carry a loaded gun 2-3 speed loaders and some patches and a patch worm, yes you always loose a patch at the worst time miles form the house, If the deer goes right down I clean with a few spit patches , if not I run another load down and go after it to finish it off , only one ever did this and i learn my sight had come loose and moved on me

we keep hunting all day but go back to the truck each time we get a deer , i can leave my powder horn and measure there

[koehlerrk]

Well folks, just got back from the range, and I have great news to report.

First off, slugging the bores - the Hawken measured 0.500" while the Black Diamond slug measured out at 0.496 or 0.497... my digital calipers was going back and forth between the two, so it's definitely a tight bore.

The suggestion of rolling a slug between two files worked wonderfully! Rolled some down to 0.493 and they loaded like a dream all day long, yet the skirts expanded on firing and accuracy was great, 5 rounds touching at 50 yards. The nice part is that the rolled slugs get file marks engraved on them, so it's real easy to tell them apart. This pile is for the Hawken, this pile is for the BD.

Looks like I don't need to send them off for sizing, thanks again to the guys who offered their services, I appreciate it, but it seems I have it under control now.

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Rick

[dikman]

Isn't it nice when you get a problem sorted? :drinks:

[Omnivore]

Nice! Five rounds touching at 50 means it's time to see what happens at 100, and 125, and 150, and...

[koehlerrk]

Agreed, but I rather foolishly, only rolled down 5 slugs... my son was mad because they loaded and shot so well. Time to roll down a bunch more.

[True.grit]

You might try to spray the inside of the mold with mold release like Frankford arsenal from midway. They will cast better and be under sized depending on how many coats you put on. Knurling has got to be a very slow process. Happy shooting