Brass frame revolvers question?

[Fly]

I have never owned a brass frame revolver in all my years of shooting black powder guns.
As everyone knows they are not as strong & so on.But really, have any of you ever wore one out?

I would like to hear what you guys really think, that have had them, & the draw backs you have
seen, not what someone told you.Let,s be truth full on this please.

Fly:coffeecom

[John Taylor]

I have one that the cylinder set back in the frame. Cylinder to barrel gap was about .060". When you cock the gun the cylinder goes forward then back.

[Fly]

I have one that the cylinder set back in the frame. Cylinder to barrel gap was about .060". When you cock the gun the cylinder goes forward then back.

Could it be shimmed?Fly

[roverboy]

I wondered about the strength of these too. I had one of these years ago. It was a CVA 1858 "Reb" model. I actually never shot it. It was a kit model and was not blued or browned. It was in the white and the grips were not finished. I just never got around to finishing it and sold it.

[Battis]

Here's a pic of the recoil shield of an old Spiller & Burr .36 I have that had been abused.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020010_zps1607d170.jpg

[fryboy]

heavy loads can damage them , 'specially with repeated usage of them , i've had several and never wore one out , nipples yes ( especially if they're not properly set ) lite loads are great fun !! if your chosen load doesnt fill it enough some grits can be placed on top of the powder as a space filler ( that also help scrub the bore ) many guns of the era had brass frames ( including ye olde henry rifle )
because they can be abused much easier the steel framed versions command a premium

[Hellgate]

What happens often is the back of the cylinder pounds dents into the recoil shield on Remingtons and into the recoil ring on Colts. This soon allows the cylinder to travel back each time it is fired and the more denting that occurs the farther it travels back with even more momentum so the gap starts opening up even faster. It is a slower process in the Remingtons (and the Spiller & Burr). On Colts, sometimes the cylinder pin is pulled out of the frame as the threads start to strip from either high pressure loads shoving the barrel forward or hard ramming of over filled chambers or hard lead balls. Keeping loads to around 20grs (or less) powder helps delay the process considerably.

[Ragnarok]

Unless the newer manufactured brass-frames are better/tougher than they used to be..the brass frames are more for looks and not for extensive shooting. Some of the older made steel framed Colt-clones were not much better and would hammer to pieces with any real use.

[Outpost75]

I had a Filli Pietta Remington brass frame .44 repro from Cabelas. In less than 300 rounds in firing full charges of 3Fg and round balls it loosened up to 0.030" cylinder gap. I returned it to Cabelas. They replaced it free with a steel frame model, which worked fine until I found a Ruger Old Army and sold it.

[BrassMagnet]

I have never owned a brass frame revolver in all my years of shooting black powder guns.
As everyone knows they are not as strong & so on.But really, have any of you ever wore one out?

I would like to hear what you guys really think, that have had them, & the draw backs you have
seen, not what someone told you.Let,s be truth full on this please.

Fly:coffeecom

My first, and last, black powder pistol was a Hawes 1851 Navy with the brass frame. It did not last. I will never own another brass frame firearm.

[Battis]

I had a brass framed High Standard Griswold & Gunnison .36 a few years ago. I kept the loads down, and fired it a lot. It was a great gun,and never shot "loose". I would not get a .44 brass frame.

[mooman76]

I didn't wear one out but bought one that had been. It has a loose frame. I hoped to fix it but never got it fixed. It is a Navy 36 cal. I asked my friend how much he loaded in it. He said he didn't know, he just filled it up.

[rodwha]

I've really liked the Spiller & Burr, but have been hesitant as it's a brass framed pistol. I see the cylinder is a little shorter than say a .36 cal Remington NMN. Can these be loaded with hotter powders such as Swiss or Olde E and last?

I saw a Mike Beliveau video and he loaded up 18 grns of 3F and placed a wad down in there, and still had room left in the chamber. Is 20-25 grns too much for hotter powders?

[Alan]

Rodwha, for brass frame you are thinking in the wrong direction. Instead of hotter powders, try 2F. Shoots great in my .36's, and with brass frames, low pressure is your friend.

[Harter66]

I don't know how much actual shooting was done w/my 58' brasser before I recieved it ....the hammer was beat up to a point that it was dragging on the frame but I doubt it was shot very much. I've launched probably somewhat over 300 loads down range ranging from the balls bumping the bbl extention (12 total) to ''gallery'' loads . It has become a measure of sorts for my powder proformance. At this point I don't see a lot of peening or set back in it. The gap flash is not any worse that an old Colt 38 I had w/Unique or the S&W or Sec 6 w/38s. I haven't checked the end play but it was a very nearly minimum gap gun when I recieved it 7yr ago. Fact is I've shot it more in the last yr than in the first 6 yr I had it combined .

[rodwha]

Alan: I decided that I only really wanted to stock/carry afield 1 powder for my arms, and that since my pistol would be used for hunting I needed it to perform well, and so I looked to Triple 7 until Olde Eynsford came out, and settled on 3F as well since it gave better performance (velocity) as well as less fouling, but I have been considering that 2F might be quite nice as I asked a fellow why he loads max loads of 2F behind a ball in his Walker, and his reply was like yours in that it reduced the overall pressures, but was also quite accurate.

I am curious how it effects the velocity in shorter barrels though.

[John Allen]

Here's a pic of the recoil shield of an old Spiller & Burr .36 I have that had been abused.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020010_zps1607d170.jpg

Battis, that is impressive I have never seen one that bad.

[rodwha]

Curious what your load was Battis.

[curator]

I bought one of the first "replica" 1851 Navy Colt .36 caliber revolvers imported in 1965. It had a brass frame and I always kept charges in the 18-20 grain area because this is what produced the best accuracy. The remaining chamber room was filled with Cream of Wheat so the .375 diameter ball would be seated just flush with the cylinder face. I must have fired that gun several thousand times with this load but at one point the barrel went down range along with the bullet. At no time did it ever appear to be getting loose, just the threads in the frame let go all at once. I silver-soldered it back together and made a wall-hanger of it. One of my step-son's buddies stole it several years ago and for all I know it is somewhere still shooting. The price difference between brass and steel frames is so small as to be insignificant. The service life of the two is significant with the brass frame models failing after a few years and the steel frame ones soldering on.

[rodwha]

That is about how I feel about them, but I'm not just a paper puncher either so light loads generally aren't what I'd need to use.

But there's something about the Spiller & Burr...

[Battis]

The Spiller & Burr .36 that I posted about is an interesting gun. It was like that when I bought it. More than one person has said it might be an original. I am 95% sure it is a repro but I've often wondered. I can post pics or start a new thread if anyone wants to make a judgement. Like I said, I'm almost positive it's a repro...

[Omnivore]

Well at least the S&B wouldn't have the arbor threads pulling out. I almost ordered one from Cabela's as a while back they had them for around $175, but they're back up over 200 now. I didn't get one, because I couldn't see using it for anything that that the Colt 1861 I already have wouldn't do.

I was trying to be "practical" but in the end there isn't much "practical" about any percussion gun, so it really only comes down to what you like.

As for any semi-practical application, like hunting (but you think a percussion revolver would be cool as opposed to a 22 LR), there's little reason to have anything smaller than a 44 unless you're talking squirrels and rabbits and sucklike.

Maybe the best approach when selecting a gun in what is, after all, an obsolete technology is to the get what you like, and find a use for it, or a rationalization for owning it, later. If owning it ceases to please you at some point, you can always sell it, or give it to me. :wink:

I once was pretty hot on getting a LeMatt, and thought it would make a splendid pin-shooting gun, but then I realized that I hadn't participated in a pin shoot for years...(and by the way; a 44 percussion revolver does throw the pins off the table with some authority).

[beemer]

I was almost given a brass frame Navy style 36 cal., the cylinder was set back and the last 2 inches of the bore was rusty. I fixed the gun just to see if I could. I had to refit the cylinder, that was a chore because I had to rework the ratchet and pawl, the barrel and the wedge. The barrel was shortened, the loading lever reworked and the sight replaced. It was fun at the time but if I had it now it would be in the trash bucket. I gave that one away although it shot fine.

I had a steel frame Euroarms in 36 cal. that I wore out twice. I probably shot that one more than any handgun I have ever owned, when I traded it off the frame was still in good condition.

Dave

[John Taylor]

1851 Navy brass frame cylinder set back.

97890

[Omnivore]

Dang! John Taylor, that photo is an excellent illustration of how pathetically little recoil surface area there is in the Colt's design. Brass work-hardens somewhat too. Interesting that the steel at the edges of the nipple cutouts seem to be peened over too.

[Multigunner]

I was given a brass framed 44 to strip for parts.
The cylinder pin had pulled through the frame.
There was enough metal left to rethread the frame for a pin with larger diameter shank.
I made a pin with a ledge at the rear then turned a mating ledge inside the cylinder pin opening at the rear of the cylinder.
This way the pressure of firing never touches the frame, the ledges form a lock up.
I've fired hundreds of maximum loads with no problem.

PS
The threads of the pin weren't a great fit so I tinned frame opening and shank with silver solder then screwed them together while hot. I had knocked out the bent up lock pin in the frame and added more solder through that hole.
Result was rock solid.

[RedneckRob]

If you would please, post some pics.

[Fly]

OK guys I have posted this on more than this site.Now remember I have NEVER owned one.
But it seems the people that have not had trouble were the ones with .36 cal revolvers.
They seem to have shot around 18 to 20 grains of powder.

My question to you is this.Do you think the smaller cal & & light loads,in a brasser can whole up.
It seems the ones that have had good luck was the ones with .36 cal & light loads.Your
thoughts on this, please?
Fly

[Hellgate]

Well, a friend of mine gave me a 36cal brass Navy to help him fix up and it needed a new main spring, trigger/bolt spring, and a wedge to get it timed. Now all he has to do is repair the recoil ring that is hammered flat into an image of the back of the cylinder just like the 44s I have seen that were "shot loose".

[rodwha]

I was told that the Spiller is a much beefier frame and stronger. It's the one brass frame I would consider at this point as I'm not a fan of brass, but I do like that pistol.

20 grns of 3F Olde Enysford or Triple 7 seems just enough to me as this ought to get you into the .38 Spl realm.

[Multigunner]

If you would please, post some pics.
I'd like to but the only working camera I have right now is a dinky little snapshot camera that can't even take a photo indoors.
I have a good quality video camera thats supposed to take stills as well, but I can't figure out how to do it and the manual seems to be for a different model without this function.
Be great if I could use it, since it has a 300X built in digital zoom and a very steady tripod.

You might look through some of the older patent drawings. Some of these show the rear of the arbor pin with a tapered section that would have matched a tapered section in the arbor hole in the cylinder.
I suspect this was to limit movement if the gun shot loose. Thats where I got the idea of adding a sharp shoulder and ledge to take the full force of firing and recoil.

Also since most repros don't have the between the nipples safety notch pins I added these to all my cylinders. The hammers usually have the slot for the pins but the cylinders usually don't have the pins. Thats a good upgrade that improves safe carrying with a full cylinder.

[Multigunner]

PS
The frames made with brass are prone to breakage, the proper material was a bronze alloy.
Commercial brass had too much zinc.
The term "Gun Metal" originally meant a particular alloy of bronze used for casting cannon barrels.
"Gun Iron" was a Maleable cast Iron used for cannon barrels. AKA White Cast Iron.
Either of these was more than strong enough for a revolver frame.

[.22-10-45]

original Confederate frames were most likely bronze as Multigunner has said as church bells were donated for the cause. That said, even with high quality ordinance bronze..these were still a war-time expediency. None of the major arms companies either in this country or in England used brass or bronze frames for military revolvers.

[Fly]

Two very well made points.Something I never thought about?

Fly

[Texantothecore]

Fly,

Thanks for this thread. I will be ordering a steel '51 in.36 cal and it is going to be shot a lot.

[doc1876]

I wore 2 out in the 70s just firing blanks at re-enactments in a year. One the cyl pin pulled out of the frame and the other the thing just got loose all over......I hear the new ones ain't much better.

[True.grit]

I had one and I gave it to a buddy of mine and he made a cool lamp out of it. The next one I get will be steel. I could kick myself for not getting a SS ROA when they were still making them.

[dondiego]

You can still find SS ROA's.