1911 Throating

[BD]

About once a month a new thread appears concerning the use of cast boolits in a 1911. IMHO the majority of the problems with failure to go fully into battery, or leading in the first inch of the barrel, when folks first try cast in their 1911 result from the lack of throating in many newer production line models. As I recently needed to throat a barrel for a commander build I was completing for my wife, I decided to take a few pictures and post this thread explaining this simple process. Maybe it would make a suitable "sticky"

97539
These are the boolits that I use in all of my 1911s. My goal is always that they function reliably without any leading. The lineup is a H&G #68 style SWC, the BDacp and a group buy HP version of the BDacp

97540
Here is the BDacp sized .451 and dropped into a very tight 1911 chamber (bore is .449) easy to see that it is not going to allow the pistol to go completely into battery. In this barrel the HP BDacp and the #68 did better, but still did not fully seat.

97541
This pick is the BDacp after throating. This is what I want to see, the head of the case just slightly below the barrel hood

97544
Here is what is required: A 1911 throating reamer and handle, and a little cutting oil.

97545
This is a closeup of the end of the chamber prior to throating it. Note the abrupt sharp edge at the end of the chamber, and the abrupt square start of the lands. In most barrels all that is needed is to slope the start of the lands just a bit. As this chamber is very tight, and the bore only .449, the reamer will also put a bevel on the end of the chamber. The real issue with most leading in the first inch of the barrel is that you simply can't shove a .452 object through a .450 hole, when both have square edges, without shaving off some lead. Rifles have "ball throats", revolvers have "forcing cones" and before the advent of CNC mass produced 1911s, nearly all nonmilitary 1911s had someone spend the 20 seconds needed to throat the barrel before it left the factory.

97546
This is a closeup of the end of the chamber after throating. If you click on this pic it will get big enough to really see what's going on. Note the taper on the end of the lands and the bevel at the end of the chamber. In a barrel that slugged .4505 - .451, (the more common dimension I see in modern 1911s), you would barely be able to discern the bevel at the end of the chamber. In a .452 bore, the reamer would only touch the lands. It's about 30 seconds work to get to this point. This particular reamer has been used between 30 and 40 times, and I've lent it out 7 or 8 times, so it is not as sharp, and does not cut as clean as it once did. It is also apparent that it was back turned at some point, (rotated counterclockwise while in contact with the lands, a definite no-no), so it's probably ready for retirement.

97548
Bore slug for this barrel.

97550
Throat slug. I do this by starting a soft lead ball into the throat, then I stand the barrel up with a 3/8" brass rod in the barrel against the ball while I tap the ball a few times with another brass rod from the chamber end. This embosses the end of the chamber on the ball so when I tap it back out I have a definite point at which to measure the throat. .452 is all the reamer will do, if you over do the reaming, you just get a little longer section at .452 I prefer just enough throat to allow my boolits to enter the very start of the barrel so they are centered up before they get the big kick in the rear sending them on their way.

I am going to try and embed a link to a short 20 second vid that junkyard was kind enough to put on U-tube for me. I don't know if it will work or not. If not, maybe junk could put it in a response to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6FXZEfNCmU&feature=youtu.be

Ok, the link seems to work! My wife is demanding film credits for shooting the short clip, "Thanks Claudine!". In any event, this is a very quick and easy process. The key being to use plenty of cutting oil, and take your time to feel for the very start of the lands before you try and turn the reamer. NEVER turn the reamer backwards against the lands as this will turn down the very fine, sharp leading edges of the reamer.

BD

[RobS]

I've worked on 3 barrels recently due to very short/abrupt throats. Two were OEM barrels and one was an aftermarket.

[Bored1]

Thanks for sharing!!! I am going to have to take a look at the barrel on my RIA compact when I get home. Had an small issue with it at the range yesterday and this could very well be why.

[nicholst55]

I have a Bar-sto barrel in one of my 1911s that was very finicky about what it would shoot. Turns out that it had essentially NO throat whatsoever! After reaming it a bit, it works just like its supposed to. First time I had encountered this particular problem in a 1911; now I look for it.

[Certaindeaf]

This is great.. thanks!

[DougGuy]

Great thread and photos!

This pic is looking down a Kahr barrel from one of their poly framed CW-45 pistols, afaik their barrels are made by Walther. This one has a match grade chamber, very tight on the dimensions, it will cycle factory ammo all day but will not fully chamber any .452" boolit despite the excellent workmanship inside the throat. For the size of the pistol, it is surprisingly accurate. Instead of fighting it, I just feed it plated boolits sized .451" and it's happy all day.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01663_zps042e1b97.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01663_zps042e1b97.jpg.html)

[Hickok]

BD, great post and pictures! You know what you are talking about!

[BD]

DougGuy,
I size all of my boolits for 1911s .451 There is no need to size to .452 unless your bore slugs more than .451
BD

[junkpile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6FXZEfNCmU

Here is the video to accompany the pictures and description. Would have posted this earlier, didn't realize it went straight to sticky status. I am unable to get the video embedded in a post.

[bhn22]

FWIW, this also the likely cause of so much unhappiness with Springfield XDs and cast bullets, especially 9mm & 40 Short & Whimpy.

[sleeper1428]

I had this same problem with a Para-Ord single stack 45ACP that I bought a couple of years ago. I essentially couldn't shoot anything other than 230gr Ball since all my 45 cast boolits wouldn't allow full chambering. Finally I made up several dummy cartridges with each of my 45 cast boolits - 125 gr spire point, 185 gr spire point, 200 gr #68, MiHec's HP 45 boolits, SAECO and Lee 225/230 gr truncated cone and RCBS 230 gr #34 RN - and took them in to a gunsmith who's done several small jobs such as this for me in the past. Testing each of the dummy cartridges, he carefully throated that barrel so that all of them would chamber completely and the cost was less than $20 for the job. I doubt that I could have either purchased or rented a throating reamer for that price so I feel it was worth it to have him do it rather than tackling the job myself. Oh, and that pistol works fine now, with no hangups when using most of the tested boolits with the exception of the lighter spire point boolits with which I will infrequently have a FTF problem.

sleeper1428

[BD]

The reamer is $40 from Brownells, (you'll need a handle as well if you don't already own one), the process takes about 30 seconds, (after your first one, which might take 60 seconds).

Watch the video, it's very short.

I'd say $20 to a competent smith is more than fair. If you are not "handy", paying a smith is wise.

If you have, or are going to have, more than one or two .45acp barrels it is probably worth buying the tool.
BD

[detox]

Is this the reamer you are talking about? $70.00

513-051-459wb (N99845M)

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-blanks-tools/reamers/centerfire-reamers/45-acp-sku513051459-7740-19475.aspx?sku=513051459

[BD]

Nope that looks like a chamber reamer, It's the one below:
97840

Here's the number:
97841
All it does is bevel the ends of the lands, and the end of the chamber just a bit if the bore is less than .452
BD

[C. Latch]

I have two 1911s that aren't terribly accurate, even by pistol standards. I realize that pistol accuracy is far more complex than simply worrying about the barrel itself (there's fit to the barrel bushing, locking lug fit, and so on) but I have considered rebarreling one or both of them, and am curious: is there any particular aftermarket barrel that has proven to be more cast-friendly than others, i.e. properly throated out of the box?

[c1skout]

Thanks for the breakdown, would the same be involved for a 45acp revolver cylinder?

[detox]

is there any particular aftermarket barrel that has proven to be more cast-friendly than others, i.e. properly throated out of the box?

Good question. Leading and bullet design is the number one cause of inaccuracy.

[ACrowe25]

IMO a lot of feeding issues can be solved with a PROPER crimp. Many people say to barely crimp. while it works for some that's perfect. If your having feeding issues try tightening the crimp a little more. Works well for me.

[cwheel]

I've had to do a dozen or so of these so far with the same reamer BD posted a pic of. Works well. Last one done was my Springfield XDs 45. Doesn't seam to be a problem with ball rounds or most factory loads. Sure shows up using cast boolits fast though. Well worth doing.
Chris

[AnthonyB]

BD:
You just cost me $60 from Brownells. I have three XDs 45s I think this will help.
Tony

[47redwillys]

How do you know if you have taper crimped enough? I worry about crimping too much but having the boolit slip back in the case is no fun either.

[Treetop]

How do you know if you have taper crimped enough? I worry about crimping too much but having the boolit slip back in the case is no fun either.

Welcome to the forum 47redwillys! The generally accepted way of knowing when enough crimp is enough, in the .45 auto, is adjusting your taper crimp die to .468"-.469" diameter at, or as close to the case mouth as possible, using your dial calipers. Tt.

[skeet1]

BD,
Very good post. My .45 is in good shape but I have a couple of 9MM's that look like they may have a problem. Do you think that this is the problem that many have with the 9MM leading?

Ken

[BD]

Skeet, it's possible. I'm sure no expert as I've never owned a 9mm. Probably should remedy that one of these days.

[nagantguy]

Lot to think about here, great sticky.

[C. Latch]

BD:
You just cost me $60 from Brownells. I have three XDs 45s I think this will help.
Tony

Did you buy the reamer?

If so, would you be interested in renting it out? I'd gladly pay a fee to be able to have it mailed to me (with handles, etc), use it on my 2 .45ACPs, then mail it back or mail it to the next user.....if that interests you, let me know.

[ackleyman]

Brother and I really appreciate this post!

[Sheldon]

I have read the XD in 45acp has a design issue that makes it hard to feed SWC bullets. From what I have read the extracting case will hit the ledge of the SWC bullet on the round in the magazine causing it to nose dive into the barrel ramp. The nose diving round's case will sometimes deform the back of the magazine causing them magazine to stop sropping freely from the gun due to the deformation. Solution seems to be switching to a bullet with no ledge on it.....I'm going to try the LEE round flatpoint 200 grainer.

Some barrels have a very tight chamber dimension. I ordered a match BarSto barrel installed on my Colt Gold Cup and specified I wanted the chamber reamed to Colt dimensions. When I got the pistol back from them the gun would not reliably chamber by reloaded lead swc handloads. I called them and it turns out they did not ream the barrel to the Colt spec. I mailed the barrel back and they reamed the barrel and it has been fine since. My son had a RIA match 1911 that had a very tight chamber as well. Sent the gun back and they reamed the barrel and it fed the ammo fine after that too.

[bangerjim]

I have come to the conclusion 1911's are made so we casters have to spend tons of money MORE to get our OWN boolits to work. (collusion amongst the big FMJ makers?!?!?!? Let's think about this!) Factory FMJ ammo cycles perfectly but I refuse to spend 50 cents to 75 cents per round to plink.

Anyway I have tried the 451 sizing die and the factory crimp die on every setting I can possibly set it at and the 200gn RNFP's will STILL not fully chamber.....lacks about 1/8"! 200gn SWC's will work but I do not like that boolit. I do NOT like it Sam-I-Am.

So now I am stuck shooting a slug I do not like just to make the stupid gun chamber and cycle. I bought it because I have 9 molds for 45cal and everybody seems to rave about it on here.

And here goes another $40 + shipping for that darned reamer! Give me a break!!!!

I am sticking to anything that is NOT semi-auto including both of my 9mm's. All my other guns will eat just about anything/everything I can cram in the cylinder/tube/magazine/whatever. Time to start listing stuff on WTS, I guess. NO PM's .....PLEASE! You will see my listing when/if I do it.

Any helpful comments would be greatly appreciated.

bangerjim

[C. Latch]

You buying a 1911 45 throatinf reamer? I'll rent it from you. Or buy it at slightly reduced price, use it a couple of times, then sell it to the the next guy for another slight discount.

[c1skout]

Hey Bangerjim, I've been using the Lee 200 RNFP with no trouble in my Springfield 1911. It has also worked well in 2 other 1911's and a Ruger P90 that I've tried. I seat them pretty deep with a light charge of Accurate #2. PM me for details if you'd like.

[dragon813gt]

Finally got around to doing this on my Remington R1 tonight. Took me awhile because I couldn't fine a handle that wouldn't slip. Ended up purchasing a Starett. And I now know why I needed the handle I did. The throat on mine was not tapered at all.

I thought I was doing something wrong after watching the video. It seems like very little force was being applied and the reamer ran really smooth. I had to really clamp the barrel down to prevent it from spinning. Had to apply a lot of force to start the cutting. After the initial cut it was easier to turn. The cut is smooth and everything chambers properly now. Hopefully I can get to the range this week to see if the failures to fully go into battery go away.

[C. Latch]

Dragon, do you want to rent out your reamers?

[Ausglock]

Thanks for the sticky.
I have a Para GI Expert in 45ACP that would not chamber my 230gn FP Lee bullets. Got the throat reamer and after a few twists, it now chambers fine. Fired it today for the first time since reaming. At 15 yards I had 8 shots in a clover leaf. 4 shots went through the same hole. All HI-TEK coated.

[jakec]

Did you buy the reamer?

If so, would you be interested in renting it out? I'd gladly pay a fee to be able to have it mailed to me (with handles, etc), use it on my 2 .45ACPs, then mail it back or mail it to the next user.....if that interests you, let me know.
ill be second if you find a willing participant C.latch. ill rent it or buy it from you when your done and send it back or send it on if somebody else wants to.

[cwheel]

Sheldon, my XDs had the same problem. Turned out the chamber reamer they use is very good, just a very square headspace step in the end. Barrel needed throating to work with any common cast boolit. Easy job with the reamer. Also a test others can do to see if this is the problem. Load a round without primer or powder to the right OAL listed for that boolit. Field strip the pistol, barrel in hand, drop the inert round into the barrel, if it seats to headspace, fine. If it stops short of headspace, lightly tap the back of the round and remove from the barrel. Look at the boolit, is there rifling marks in the boolit next to the case mouth ?? If yes, barrel needs throating for that boolit. Properly throated barrel will make no difference with whatever round you load after throating if loaded properly.
Chris

[C. Latch]

If I get enough interest, I'll buy a reamer and handle and use it then sell it or rent it to the next guy.
Here's the signup thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245603-Sign-up-thread-for-those-interested-in-1911-throating-for-cast-bullets

[quasi]

if your pistola has a chrome lined bore, you will need a reamer made of carbide.

[cwheel]

Even with a carbide reamer you would be cutting through the chrome, and be setting it up to chip the chrome off a little every shot at the transition from steel throat to the chrome bore. Chrome lined barrel would be better for a hardball gun if it has a very square shoulder.
Chris

[DougGuy]

Anyone interested in having their barrel done may send me a PM, as this .45 ACP is now an added caliber to what I am already set up for.

[stu1ritter]

Thanks for the breakdown, would the same be involved for a 45acp revolver cylinder?

Usually, we measure revolver cylinder throats and size accordingly, or if way too small, use a throating reamer to bring the cylinder up to size. Use pin gauges to measure the cylinder throat, available from Amazon (made by Vermont Gage) starting at $2,50 each.
Calipers are not accurate enough for this work.
Stu

[destrux]

I think I'll try this out to see if I can get the Colt barrel in my Ballester Molina to stop leading. Tried everything else including powder coating and it still wants to lead. The throat is as abrupt as a brick wall right now.

[DougGuy]

Left and right, before and after, SA 1911 compact barrel. This barrel would not chamber a .452" with conventional COA dimensions until it was throated. Shoots very good, no leading. The length of freebore does not seem to be really particular if there is a bit of free jump as it is called before the boolit engages the rifling. Have done a few KKM barrels with as much as .220" throat and they work great.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg.html)

KKM barrel for a Glock, owner wanted to shoot .45 Super seated out long, and this throat worked out well for him:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/8b5f5e57-990e-4a7d-9b80-9911ab6438f1_zps53fb17d2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/8b5f5e57-990e-4a7d-9b80-9911ab6438f1_zps53fb17d2.jpg.html)

[Quiettime]

Had a problem chambering Hornady TAP 230 (Trnc Cone HP) in my Sig Ultra Compact yesterday, had to force the slide closed and when I ejected the round there was a slight ring (no rifling marks) around the bullet.

I remembered this thread and after re-reading, I ordered my reamer today. For 40 bucks I can do all my 1911's

Could not find a handle recommended (Brownells site kinda sucks) so I think I am going to try chucking it in my drill press and removing the belt so I can turn it by hand.

Also saw on another site someone recommended making a short chamber guide by cutting the head off a fired case.

Any thoughts?

[DougGuy]

Did you get the pilot kit that comes with the reamer or did you get a non-piloted reamer? Big difference in the two, very difficult to ensure concentricity with the bore without a pilot that fits really snug. You won't see it until you are done if it is off center.. Then you will need some fine rubber abrasives to polish it out with when you are done. Craytex, not cheap.

Some barrels will surprise you in that you use the .4525" reamer that finishes about .4527" in a .45 Colt cylinder, but a .452" pin gage will not go into the chamber throat even after using a .4525" reamer on it. Ask me how I know this.. The barrel out in front of the locking lugs is thin and springy and will expand when you use the reamer on it, and the reamer won't cut cleanly at the diameter it's ground. It leaves some barely detectable high spots where the rifling was. For these you need a specially made aluminum lap with some very fine lapping compound.

I do barrels for half the price of that reamer + shipping. $40 looks like a bargain, -until- you get into it and see that there is a LOT more going on than just chuck it up and cut it.

[Quiettime]

I got the same part number shown by the OP for my 1911 throat.

I'm handy enough, have fitted hi-ride beaver tails and thumb/grip safties etc and I know less is more in this case. Can always cut more if needed but damn hard to put it back!

[Quiettime]

Got my reamer today.

Tried to slip the bushing I made from a fired case on the reamer and it didn't want to go. Fearing the likelihood of slicing my fingers on the reamer, I figured I'd try without it.

The drill thing, yeah...that's a no-go. So I found a small tap handle that fit the reamer fairly well. After several failed attempts I was ready to give up. The reamer wanted to grab too much rifling each time I'd insert it and lock itself up.

So I decided to try the bushing again. I carefully forced it on very slowly with a small screwdriver pushing between the flutes until it slid over the reamer.

Bingo! With the bushing I was able to carefully control the cutting depth and turn the reamer by hand, then tap it once or twice with the screwdriver handle and repeat.

Worked out pretty well and I was able to put a really nice chamfer without going to deep. Best I can tell it is very concentric and smooth.

Thanks again BD!

[Quiettime]

Here's the finished product, best as my phone will capture
121896

[mjwcaster]

So when I order the throating reamer from brownell's what should I get for a handle?

I have searched on their site for reamer handle and the closest thing that comes up is starrett tap handles.
I have a few tap handles, what size do I need for the reamer?

Thanks,

Matt

[DougGuy]

The handle you want is for their forcing cone cutter, it's aluminum with a setscrew, it's called a Chamfer Tool Handle, $12.99

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/38-45-chamfering-kit-parts-prod26162.aspx

The Brownell's .45 ACP throating reamer is made by Manson. It is a nice tool, however the nose is .4415" and I find that I use a .4425" pilot for almost all the .45 barrels I throat. That one thousandth of an inch undersize in the pilot can mean an off center cut in the throat that you can see with the naked eye. It you can see it, what do you think it will do to the boolit when it's fired?

The cheap reamer Brownell's sells, is $40 plus shipping.

The Manson piloted reamer I use is $75 + another $50 for the pilots. Plus shipping. <--THIS one is the one you want if you really care about how concentric your throat is.

I think you have to get the piloted reamer right from Dave Manson, I don't think Brownell's even sells them.

The service I offer is much more precise than the $40 reamer is even capable of. I do barrels for $20 plus $12.50 insured return shipping. The work is fast, concise, and professionally done. Want the quality offered by the high dollar reamer at half the cost of the cheap one? PM will get the ball rolling.

[dragon813gt]

I ended up buying a straight handle tap wrench. None of the collet handle style handles I own worked. They all slipped and are worthless. I'm pretty sure the handle was made by Starett.

[prs]

I like the idea of the cartridge case as guide/stop bushing.

prs

[DougGuy]

I have put together a package deal that addresses not only the throat, but the feed ramp and the crown. Response by owners who have sent their barrels in for this has been very positive. This is a very affordable way to accurize a 1911 barrel and cure it's feeding woes all in one go round. It's a no brainer to see that the throat will now let you seat any style .452" boolit at whatever COA you choose, and these will "plunk" a whole range of different boolits, basically if it will feed through the magazine, it will feed and fire in this barrel without issue.

A few shooters want to run .45 Super in their Glock 21 seated out long, the throat they need is slightly longer than what is pictured, but this is certainly the ticket for this setup!

Radiusing the top of the feed ramp just breaks the sharp corner off the bevel, if there is one, it doesn't really alter the shape or size of the ramp, it just makes it smoother and easier for the round to break over the bevel when it goes up under the extractor and heads into the chamber. The "shoulders" at both sides of the chamber mouth are also blended in with the ramp and taken farther up the sides so they won't gouge or dent a boolit as it is being fed.

Re-crowning the barrel may not look like it's needed, but you would be surprised how much improvement the crown makes when you have one precision cut on 20° as this is pretty much an optimum angle for burning gas to exit the barrel behind the boolit. The crown is sharp yet free of any burrs, and held concentric to the bore and square to the axis of the bore by a Dave Manson precision mandrel made especially for this job. Accuracy is un paralleled as this tooling has less runout than a lathe, and groups shrink accordingly. Recutting the crown helps to reel in any flyers and the most positive response has been that shooters will often notice they are putting rounds through the same holes on their target. Gotta love a good shootin' .45!

As always, work is fast and professionally done. This package is VERY affordable, you can't even rent the tooling for what this package costs PM for details.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1911%20Crowning/ThroatCrownampPolish2_zpse2qdypmb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1911%20Crowning/ThroatCrownampPolish2_zpse2qdypmb.jpg.html)

Update 3/28/15 Currently offering this in .45 ACP, .45 Super, 9mm/10mm and .40 S&W!

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Want to say thanks to the OP. I know this thread has been around a while, but I've never seen the relevance people put on the importance of the age of the thread so long as the topic is still relevant. Anyhow...I bought the tool from Brownell's. I spent about 15 minutes with the cutter on my DW that has never chambered lead consistently. It took MUCH more cutting that I was led to believe. Anyhow, never got it to pass the plunk test. However...I did get it to function flawlessly. I even had one round that had completely jammed it the other day at the range (I mean it took pounding to get the thing open). But I fed it and it ate the round without a hiccup. AND I shot 4 groups at 21 yards, from a rest, that averaged UNDER 1.25"!!!! So I don't think my accuracy was hurt.:drinks: The gun has always been accurate; usually averaging between 1.5 and 1.75". But 1.25"?!?!?!?! Needless to say, it was a good day! :grin: Thanks!

[tazman]

I took advantage of the package deal DougGuy provides for a 1911 45 acp barrel I had that wouldn't feed anything but hardball or a similar profile cast boolit.
Now it feeds flawlessly with anything and is even more accurate than before.

[wquiles]

I took advantage of the package deal DougGuy provides for a 1911 45 acp barrel

I am building a compensated 1911 (on my SS series 80 Colt Commander) to run heavy 45acp boolits, and I just sent my threaded barrel to DougGuy for this package deal of throating, polish/bevel, and crown cutting :)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1911%20Crowning/ThroatCrownampPolish2_zpse2qdypmb.jpg


Will

[tazman]

He has one of mine to have the same done to it at the moment.

[Sailormilan2]

Realizing that this is a very old thread, I will weigh in anyway.
I've been told by 1911 aficionados, that all replacement 1911 barrels need to be finish reamed. It's been my experience, though limited to only 9 barrels of various calibers, is that this is a true statement. This includes 2 45 acp barrels that were labeled as "Drop In", and 2 10mm barrels that were not labeled as "Drop In" but were. The 10mm Chambers were undersized in diameter and length, and had no throat.

[wquiles]

Well said. I just got back from Doug a brand new 45acp 1911 (Commander) barrel for a 45Super project I am working on, and the barrel "did" in fact need Doug to do the finish reaming. Doug also did the deep throating as I want to be able to shot "fat" bullets once I manufacture the compensator for this threaded barrel :)

[Engineer1911]

I bought the Brownell's reamer shown in post #14. I throated fifteen 1911 45 ACP barrels. The accuracy improved across the board and leading went to ZERO in each gun. Money well spent for a DIY project.

[onelight]

my experience with 45acp with my guns and several good shooting buddies totally supports what Dougguy has posted . In our group we have 2 Walthers 2 HKs a CZ97 2 sig p220s springfield 1 xds 1 xde and 2 Glocks a large assortment of 1911s I may have missed some , we all shoot commercial cast Hi-Tek 200 grain rnfp .452 bullets we all use the LFCD and we get little to no leading but we all had to work up loads with a shorter OAL than is ideal , because of the way the chambers are cut.
I am the only one that casts in this group . I don't have a barrel done by Dougguy because I load for so many I would have to get them all done to work with the same load or none to keep from having to match ammo to gun I don't want the complication , so at some point I may send Dougguy 4 or 5 barrels at once to have done , what we do works for what we shoot but is not what I consider ideal.

[cobia]

my experience with 45acp with my guns and several good shooting buddies totally supports what Dougguy has posted . In our group we have 2 Walthers 2 HKs a CZ97 2 sig p220s springfield 1 xds 1 xde and 2 Glocks a large assortment of 1911s I may have missed some , we all shoot commercial cast Hi-Tek 200 grain rnfp .452 bullets we all use the LFCD and we get little to no leading but we all had to work up loads with a shorter OAL than is ideal , because of the way the chambers are cut.
I am the only one that casts in this group . I don't have a barrel done by Dougguy because I load for so many I would have to get them all done to work with the same load or none to keep from having to match ammo to gun I don't want the complication , so at some point I may send Dougguy 4 or 5 barrels at once to have done , what we do works for what we shoot but is not what I consider ideal.

Did you by chance have Dougguy work on any for you? I wonder what it would cost now days as I have 4 45's that needs help with my cast 230's PC'd.. I should just contact Doug...

[Bigslug]

Having. . .ummm. . .several 1911's, tweaking every one of them is an impractical option - especially when some are vintage that I wouldn't tweak regardless.

The conclusion I've arrived at for cast is to just make the gun think it's shooting spec .45 ammo, and there are plenty of mold choices out there to do that with. In that regard, it's no different than making a custom mold for a particular rifle, but the "particular rifle" is a 1911 with a hardball throat. The LBT 230 grain LFN is designed to provide the desired full diameter shank, a taper that begins right at the case mouth and clears the average throat, a C.O.A.L. that feeds in a 1911's geometry, and a reasonable meplat that compromises nicely between target destruction and not interfering with how a 1911 operates. There's quite a few that follow that formula out there.

298226

The other part of the function equation is to simple make the measurements of the case those of the blueprint you see in your loading manuals. Most of my failures were simply a matter of not enough taper crimp - and that's with jacketed or cast.

The good or bad thing about the 1911 and the .45 ACP is that they can be and has been tweaked for many different purposes - my take is that the need for throating most likely stems from a departure from the original purpose. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to do some homework if you do. If the goal is simply to get the gun to run reliably and clean, look to that original purpose.

[Txcowboy52]

Great post and great pics . Many thanks BD , I think you have helped out lots of people who have read your post and watched the video , very informative, thank you again!!!

[DougGuy]

Time to update and share a couple of things..

The cheaper throating reamer that Brownell's sells is a Manson reamer, made with a solid nose pilot that is not interchangeable. Typically this pilot is quite a bit smaller in diameter than what I would consider optimal, they have to make it smaller or it would only fit in half the barrels. I don't have an actual dimension as I don't use the solid nose reamers but considering they use a .447" nose on a .452" cylinder reamer, the throating reamer for 45ACP would be close to .438" possibly as big as .440" you would have to give Dave Manson a call to verify exactly what their pilot measures.

Pilot diameters. Generally, I get the most use out of a .442", .4425" and .443" most 45ACP 1911 barrels will use one of these three pilots. There are exceptions, Dan Wesson at .4405" some Para USA at .4415" Kahr with Ballard rifling .441" and .4415" Kahr with polygonal rifling .4385" and .439" and for these barrels I have to machine a pilot to fit the polygonal rifling. Added expense and added time.

It really is critical that the pilot be fitted as snugly into the rifling as possible, as this fitment controls how concentric your freebore and leade-ins will be to the existing rifling. At this stage, it is imperitive you use pilots sized in .0005" increments. Yes piloted reamers are twice or more the cost of the solid nose reamer, but you honestly do get exactly what you pay for, the piloted reamers are MUCH more accurate to the center of the bore than a pilot that will go in the rifling only rattle tight, and once the solid nose reamer starts cutting, it will stay on that cut and you are stuck with wherever it decides to center itself.

Some barrels are chambered slightly eccentric to the rifled bore, which is really not a good thing, but with a long freebore that is concentric with the rifling, even some misalignment can be tolerated without causing major problems as long as it doesn't shave the boolit on one side.

I often see barrels where the rifling is a tad bit deeper on one side than the other, it's like the lands aren't on the same center as the groove is, and since the reamer pilot will center off the lands, it can make the freebore look a bit wonky, or create a bigger "shadow" on one side than the other, and there really isn't much that can be done with a barrel like this but shoot it and hope for the best, or chalk it up to runout in the barrel itself and replace it with a better quality barrel.

And now for the bad news... I have pretty much had to quit throating salt bath hardened barrels in 45 caliber, as the carbide reamers I have are worn beyond their ability to cut smoothly and price and lead time to have them resharpened is STUPIDLY expensive and months of waiting. Typically a carbide throater with live pilot will run close to $300 with a lead time of 4 to 6 months, and $200 to have it sharpened after waiting weeks and weeks.

9mm I have a few cuts left in two carbide throaters, they are very near end of life. 10mm/40S&W reamer has a bit of life left.

When these wear beyond use I don't plan to renew them, costs have gone crazy, and I am LUCKY if I can get 10-12 uses out of a carbide throater before it starts cutting a ragged throat. Divide the cost of the reamer by the number of throats that it cut, you will see the tooling going away at roughly $30 per throat each time it gets used.

It has become much more practical to use an aftermarket stainless barrel, used to be I could buy two KKM or LW barrels for the price of one carbide reamer. These aftermarket barrels can then be throated to use whatever COA you could cycle through the magazine.

Case hardened barrels like the CZ Shadow2 are pretty much impossible to throat even with carbide tooling. Carbide will ride on the hardened layer, it will squeal loudly when trying to crown a barrel for instance, then with hard pressure against it, suddenly break through and the metal underneath the hardened layer is super soft. It's nowhere near as hard as a standard WWII era carbon steel 1911 barrel. The only way a barrel like the Shadow2 could be throated, is in a lathe with a miniature internal tool post grinder with a tiny fine mounted point, and because the metal under the hardening is so soft, I would not recommend nor would I even attempt to throat a case hardened barrel.

[DougGuy]

my take is that the need for throating most likely stems from a departure from the original purpose.

You are exactly right. However, it isn't the handloader or caster that has deviated from the path, it is the manufacturers who deem it "proper" to run the rifling right down to the headspace ledge at the end of the chamber, with barely enough of the lands beveled back to chamber SOME factory ammo.

They do this not only to save manufacturing costs, but to deter use of reloaded ammunition! Some go as far as to void a warranty if the owner uses reloads. There, right there is why barrels now need throating.

Afaik, JM Browning invented and perfected the 45ACP 1911 a LONG time before SAAMI became an organization, and I can only assume they took chamber and bore dimensions from drawings supplied by Colt among other long term manufacturers, and there was freebore in the barrels as witnessed by current SAAMI specs adopted by 1926 that distinctly show a parallel section of .452" diameter freebore in front of the chamber, before the leade-ins begin to define the rifling.

WWII 1911 barrels never needed throating, because the factories that made them adhered to the specs that were already set out and pretty much carved in stone. BTW, original mil spec and also SAAMI spec for the round nose leaded ammunition call for a boolit of .453" diameter.

How far would you get trying to use ammo loaded with a .453" cast round nose at the 1.250" COA in modern barrels?

Edit: Let me also add this.. Remember reading about the super thorough tests done in 1908 where they shot thousands of rounds through rusty magazines, smushed bullets, smushed cases, corroded cases, ammo covered in sand and dirt, ice, salt water, every kind of obstacle that would cause the 1911 to jam or cease to function was tried, the guns fired until the barrels were red hot.

Think about this for a second.. The throats in those barrels were designed to NEVER FAIL to chamber a round and go fully into battery, as a jammed weapon could cost a soldier his life, or worse, be attributed to many soldiers killed because the one man who could have prevented it, had a jammed 1911 at the worst possible time.

These scenarios never happened. The 1911s were by design, engineered so they would never fail to feed and fire, regardless of conditions.

Let me ask one final time, how much of this torture testing and consequently well over a century of globally acknowledged, well deserved reputation, would have been possible with any number of modern manufacturer's "throatless" or "short throated" barrels?

[BD]

I agree with DougGuy here. My oldest 1911, issued to my great grandfathers brother in 1915, came with a proper throat. I have a 1941 barrel that also has a proper throat. My first Kimber came with a proper throat. It wasn't until the 1990's that I started seeing new factory 1911 barrels with no throat at all. Apparently most of the major manufacturers simply stopped hand throating thier barrels about the same time that they went to CNC production.

[josper]

I just bought an RIA 1911 fs and I shoot cast bullets. after reading this thread I looked at the chamber and rifling and it didn't look abrupt like the picture. the rifling looks like it kind of blends in with the chamber. so is this barrel good to go??

[DougGuy]

I just bought an RIA 1911 fs and I shoot cast bullets. after reading this thread I looked at the chamber and rifling and it didn't look abrupt like the picture. the rifling looks like it kind of blends in with the chamber. so is this barrel good to go??
Load up a dummy round with the boolit
Seated out to your chosen COA and see if it'll plunk

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Got my 1911 9mm barrel back from Doug recently and it shoots great! Both j words and cast.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

So, I made my cut today. I used the cheaper cutter without the pilots. I purchased before I knew there was a better one available. My cuts were sloppy as it was hard to turn with it seated all the way. Maybe it's too sharp and wanted to dig in.

Anyway, it's done and a Lee 452-228-1R will now fit. It's close to a ball profile more so than the Lyman version. Wadcutters will now fit as well. All are very snug and don't exactly "plunk" as I'm putting a 452 bullet in a 452 hole but will easily seat with little pressure. Dummy rounds cycle well.

I did have to make my own tap handle since the Brownell's one is backordered. I cut some 1/2 aluminum bar stock and tapped for an M6 grub screw.

[DougGuy]

So, I made my cut today. I used the cheaper cutter without the pilots. I purchased before I knew there was a better one available. My cuts were sloppy as it was hard to turn with it seated all the way. Maybe it's too sharp and wanted to dig in.

That barrel can probably be saved with the right pilot on a piloted reamer. Those solid nose reamers are so far undersized in the nose, you might as well not even have a nose up there. Throating reamers really are a tool where you get what you pay for.