17 hornet from 22 hornet

[Ramsey874]

Ok to start I can't find 17 hornet ammo or brass and this 17 hornet was sons 18th birthday present(he begged for it I wanted him to get a 204). But I need your Ideas on which way: To go use a 204 size die and start the sizing with that then step to 17 hornet? Have looked at the hornady forming die set up would love that but site says special orders on hold IDEAS? The other thought is bullberry forming dies. I want input which way I should go and which will be best and/or easiest.

[wch]

Bullberry dies are excellent and their customer service is even better.

[Ramsey874]

Will I still have to fire form the brass? Please talk your ideas though with me I'm learning!

[dave 45-90]

Unless you have the case forming dies and the neck turner, you will be in trouble with pressure problems...Thick necks and fire forming is a recipe for disaster...There is brass around the net.....To compound the problem, the Hornet headspaces on the rim....The forming of 25-06 from 30-06 is another example of reducing neck size and removing excess brass BEFORE reloading. Chamber casting will tell you exactly what you need to be safe....It all depends how much money you are willing to invest to be safe....With brass around, it's not cost effective to manufacture brass of dubious quality

[Ramsey874]

I'm new to case forming (very first time considering it) but other than the hornady case forming set up, what others are available? I've spent probably 20 hours or more looking for this ammo/brass none to be found have ammo ordered on 2 different sites for over 2 months, I have been to 3 gun shows called atleast 30 brass dealers/gunshops, and fingers almost bloody from searching(ok that one not true but). But it seems to me that converting 22h to 17h is my only option so guide me to do it safely please.

[fryboy]

i havent done this conversion so what i state will only be in general , first off while the hornet was originally designed to headspace on the rim the 17 can ( and should be ) headspaced off of the shoulder ( i do this with my 22K hornet ) as to being fireformed ... that depends - i count every first firing of new to me brass as "fireforming" my 22 hornet to 22K needs it - even when i neck up to 6 mm and then back down to give me a false shoulder to start with , if your sizing down new cases and it doesnt look like the 17's ( eg; shoulder not filled out ) then yes fire forming is assuredly needed , as to neck thickness ... hard to tell from here , mic one of your factory cases with a bullet in it , now mic a converted case - if it's much thicker yes it will need either neck turned or reamed , which one will be up to you to decide and choose based on cash for tool outlay
oddly enough i seem to see 17 hornet brass and ammo more than i see 22 hornet stuff

[Ramsey874]

well I got 186 22 hornet brass coming. But I'll glady trade you 22 for 17. Or tell me who to call or what website to visit, I do feel bad since Feb 3 rd (sons birthday) my son has had the gun but not one bullit down the barrel yet.

[fryboy]

i ummm aint really in the mood to drive around to the local supply houses ( my current budget was blown in the S&S section a few days back ..) they're kind of scattered out anyways , i can always check next time i'm there [shrugz] google fu turns up this however , how long it last after i post it ( if prior postings of in stock merchandise is any indication ) is anyone's guess ( g'luck ) there was a couple more i found but... far away and some even o'er the pond

http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/hrn8611.htm

[Ramsey874]

Well thank you I put an order in i'll see if it is in stock prob Monday. Again thank you fryboy

[Toddlo]

First off I'm a bit of a newbie to reloading and a bit of a hack, so if you take any of my advice, proceed at your own risk. I bought a Savage Model 25 17 hornet last fall and fell in love with the way it shoots. I went into it assuming ammo would be impossible to buy. The only reason I bought it was because I had a 22 hornet and had already reloaded with it for about 6 months and I had some extra brass. I got 17 hornet dies from Hornady and a trimmer pilot and shaft for my old Forster Trimmer so I could trim the cases. Then I began experimenting with getting the necks sized. I started by sizing the necks in my 22 hornet dies (in an old Lyman Truline jr) then moving to the 17 hornet dies. It was frustrating initially as I kept crushing the necks (about 40% of them) in the 17 Hornet dies, even with case lube applied. So I had the idea to take the 17 hornet die out of the press and try to tap the case in, thinking that the brass might respond better to a sudden force rather than a slow one (like metal stamping). I set the die on a block of wood to protect it and then applied some case lube to my brass, set the brass in the die, and gave it a few easy taps with a soft face mallet to start it in. I found that if I just sized the top of the neck (1/16" or so down) I could then pop it back into the press and finish the forming gently by hand. I then trim them to the correct length then load them. Once they're loaded, I fire-form them and double check the length before I reload. I've found that Winchester brass that is either virgin or once-fired is soft enough. PPU brass also seems to work well. As far as accuracy is concerned, it's better then the one box of factory stuff I actually tried. I'm able to get .5" groups at 100yds, 1.25" at 200yds with it and I've killed groundhogs out to 327yds with Hornady 20 gr Vmax bullets, 9.8 grains of Lilgun powder (pretty tame) and Rem 6-1/2 primers. There are probably much better ways to do it, but it works for me. I've fired a few hundred rounds this way with no real issues. One thing to pay close attention to in any hornet is the base of the brass; when brass is near the end of its life, a lighter colored line will form around them right before they split. Immediately discard any suspect cases or you will end up with a broken case in your rifle.

Best of luck!

97650

[Ramsey874]

I thank you for your experiences, I'll take it all in. One question does the shoulder form itself or do i need to pay special attention EI how deep the initial step is? But I do thank you for sharing.

[Toddlo]

After I fire-form in the gun I also full length size them in my sizing die when I'm reloading them for the first time. I hope that helps.

[Ramsey874]

Yep I helps thanks for your time Toddlo

[19112TAP]

I'm in the same boat I just got the Savage Model 25 and Hornady dies but was wasting a lot of virgin brass trying to form from 22 Hornet, I will have to try Toddlo idea of hammering them in then sizing. When I purchased the gun the gun shop had 12 boxes of ammo and not wanting to be a ammo hog I only got 3 boxes, I called them up today and they are out.

[Ramsey874]

Well just an update I decided $40 for the bullbarry forming dies was not that bad of deal so this weekend I'll let you know how it is going.

[Iowa Fox]

Ramsey- I have been shooting the 17AH for decades and that one has always been a form it yourself case. I have forming dies from three different sources including the Bullberry double end die. The Bullberry die will work fine for you but sizing wax is the key with any case reforming. I use Imperial and Lee. I actually like the Lee better as it seems a little slipperier when still wet. The Hornet brass has very thin necks and I have never had to turn necks including one rifle with a tight chamber. One good website for the 17HH and case forming is http://www.saubier.com/ Case forming is a regular discussion and the guys are nice and helpful. If I had a 17HH I would be forming my cases rather than trying to buy them. On my Bullberry forming die I did polish it with Flitz which really helped smooth things up. Varmint Als web site also has a lot of great information on case forming for the 17AH which is almost the same thing. Sometimes after I form then anneal the neck I take 5 grains of bullseye and plug the neck with case lube and fire just to have a sample of the chamber. One last thing, Lil Gun is dangerous as heck in either the 17AH or the 17HH. I won't use it in the little 17 cases. If you go to saubier you will see some guys have gotten into a pickle with it.

Good Luck and if you have any questions I'll be happy to relay any of my experiences with the 17AH with 17 grain and 20grain Vmax.

[Toddlo]

I've never heard of any trouble with LilGun, especially in the hornets, and have had awesome results with it in my 22 H and 17HH. I'll look around just the same, thanks for the red flag.

I've been meaning to try 4198 and 4227 in the 17HH as they both did well in my 22H.

[MarkP]

You will be fine running 22 Hornet brass into a standard 17 Hornet die and fire forming in your gun. (Take expander out of die when forming) I have had 17 wildcats based off of the 22 Hornet case for 20+ years never any issues. My cartridges look identical to the middle cartridge in Toddlo's post above. I ground my own reamers and I think my neck is 0.192".........not sure what the SAAMI neck dia is; You could even make a die by drilling a 7/8-14 bolt with a #5 C'Drill.

[Iowa Fox]

I've never heard of any trouble with LilGun, especially in the hornets, and have had awesome results with it in my 22 H and 17HH. I'll look around just the same, thanks for the red flag.

I've been meaning to try 4198 and 4227 in the 17HH as they both did well in my 22H.

Lil Gun works well in the 22 Hornet and I use it in some of the loads for mine. I did try some in the 17 AH without issue but gave up on it when some of the guys I know started to run into quirky pressure issues that seemed to come out of no place. They were charging well within or under book loads. These are long time small caliber shooters not new to the 17. For my 17AH I use Vit N120 or 1680- mostly N120 and I am happy with the performance and accuracy.

[Ramsey874]

Wow that was some great advise I'm starting to get excited about my brass getting here Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge

[Toddlo]

****! I forgot to mention about takin out the expander. This is why it's good to have lots of folks weighing in and filling in the cracks. Thanks MarkP.

[Iowa Fox]

I should have posted this link yesterday. Hope it works as its good read for case forming.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22639

[Ramsey874]

Thought you all deserved an update it was easy project in all getting that .17 cal bullet into neck was hardest part! Thank you all.