Winchester 38 WCF model 1892 in great looking conditions BUT.....

[Camba]

Hi everyone!
I have just learn that my brother had bought a Winchester lever gun in pretty much pristine conditions with caliber markings of 38 WCF. The rifle, however had been somewhat "butchered" by a gunsmith wannabe that I believe makes the gun dangerous.
Before I go to the gun details, I like to explain the constraints that my brother is under as he lives in a South American Country where gun parts are not available and the current governments are throwing all kinds of gun laws that it is even hard to send him any parts, such as a replacement barrel to mitigate the situation.

OK. Now the details of the gun:
1. The gun is a Winchester model 1892, lever action, 38 WCF (38-40 win?).
2. This gun was purchased by one on my dad's friend over 50 years ago in South America when the rifle was chambered in 38 wcf.
3. Since ammo was not available for this caliber there, a gunsmith wannabe modified the chamber to fit a 44 cal round. This is where things are bad.
4. According to the person that sold the rifle to my brother, the gunsmith wannabe look at the 44 cal (44 spc, 44 mag 44-40?) and eye compared the 38 wcf and he figured the difference in diameter of the bullet was "close enough" and drill the camber.
5. The 38 wcf (or .401" cal) barrel still the same but the chamber is a 44 cal now. I believe my brother told me it is a 44 special chamber now but I need to ask him again and maybe get a picture of it. Because it could be a 44 wcf or 44-40.
6. Anyway, this rifle had been shot a couple of dozen times by the previous owner with no apparent problems.
7. I immediately told my brother to NOT to shoot that gun as it is dangerous. (boolit swaged from .429 to .401???).
8. He said he did try one shot to make sure it works. Luckily he has all his limbs and appendices and the gun looks fine.

OK. Now that you know that story, my question to you is the following. Also, my question takes into account of the constraints that I cannot send him a replacement barrel in 44-40, 44 special, 45 colt, or other caliber that would not require additional parts to be changed.
Question:
Assuming there is two choices for this situation:
1. Do nothing and just place the rifle somewhere in the house as an ornament (this would be last resort); or
2. to re-chamber the barrel so that the .401" bore can still be used over a case that will fit the new chamber (to be modified to).
Not knowing how much about the current exact chamber dimension, all I can do is speculate and think of a new re-chambering that will help him make a correction. And of course, whatever is used, it would have to be loaded to pressures equal or lower than the original 38 wcf.
My first thought was to use a 44 mag case necked down to .401 cal or to use a S&W 460 cal case necked down to .401 cal (would this be possible? And again, it would have to be reloaded only to low pressures).
The best solution in my book is to swap barrels with another 38 wcf or a factory 44 cal; but like I said before, sending him the barrel is futile. Much easier would be to send him a set of reloading dies, a chamber rimmer, and a bullet mold.
Any thoughts? (please don't kill the messenger). Thank you.

Camba

[Mk42gunner]

The problem is that unless it was reamed for the .44 WCF/.44-40 the base of the .38WCF/.38-40 is larger than the .44 Special or magnum, not sure of the .460 S&W case dimensions. I think you will run into overall length issues real fast on the 92 action if you try to neck down a longer one to fit the current chamber.

The best bet would be to rebarrel it to either the original .38WCF or .44 WCF. Next best would be to reline it to one of those calibers.

Another idea, and I am not sure if it is possible or even safe without having the rifle in hand to examine would be to sleeve and rechamber the chamber portion of the barrel, but there probably isn't a gunsmith there locally that you can trust to do the job correctly.

Given the legal situation, the best bet may be to turn it into a wall hanger; unless he can send it to you somehow?

Robert

[Bent Ramrod]

If it was mine, I would make a bushing that fit the new chamber, solder it in there and rechamber back to .38-40. Or drill the new chamber out with a standard drill, make a bushing to fit that cavity, solder it in and rechamber to .38-40.

[armorer59]

+1 on sleeving the chamber area and rechambering for .38-40/.38 WCF. I will say, MANY years ago P O Ackley took a .25-06 rifle and ran a .30-06 throating reamer into the chamber. Doing this allowed a .30-06 round to be chambered and fired which Ackley did. Without incident or overpressure signs. While I'm in no way advocating using your fiream to swage, it has been done without catastrophe in some instances.

[square butte]

John Taylor - a Gunsmith and member here - does chamber sleeves. Not sure this one is a good candidate, But he would be able to tell you.

[Camba]

Educate me on sleeving. Is this similar to the adapters to shoot i.e. 30 carbine in a 308 win chamber?
If that is what you mean, then that sounds like something that can be done. It would be nice to get the current chamber dimensions to see how that looks and what can be made to fit.
Camba

[Camba]

Well, I called my brother (and I actually spoke with my nephew) and asked him to read the head stamp letters and numbers. The current chamber to 44 cal is actually a 44-40 Win cartridge (the bore still is 38 wcf). That gives us a little more info that I thought was badly needed to formulate more opinions.
Camba

[MtGun44]

liner in the bbl.

Bill

[bob208]

this made on the assumption that it can not be sent back here for a proper repair and that your brother is handy with tools. given the ammo and location I would set up the barrel and fresh it out like they did the muzzle loaders. it can be done by hand. 401 to .426 would be some work but it could be done. then it would be a .44-40.

[John Taylor]

I can fix it but I can't send it back to him. Old guns can be sent to me from outside the U.S. but it takes a special license to send any gun part out of the U.S.

[olafhardt]

Get some of that chamber casting metal Brownells sells and send it to him. Let him make a chamber cast and send to you. Talk to mold companies about making you a set of dies to form and load brass from 44/40 to his chamber. Since it is a rimmed cartridge he might form cases by shooting 38 wcf in the gun. Dave Scoville of Rifle magazine wrote articles about some descripancies between chamber and cartridge dementions in the 38 wcf.

[Camba]

This sounds like a good idea too. At least that would clear the chamber shape doubt. The other can be the chamber insert method to make a 38-40 out of 45 colt cases or 44 mag cases (more available). I wish I had some knowledge of gunsmithing so I can help him when I visit him next year.


Get some of that chamber casting metal Brownells sells and send it to him. Let him make a chamber cast and send to you. Talk to mold companies about making you a set of dies to form and load brass from 44/40 to his chamber. Since it is a rimmed cartridge he might form cases by shooting 38 wcf in the gun. Dave Scoville of Rifle magazine wrote articles about some descripancies between chamber and cartridge dementions in the 38 wcf.

[dtknowles]

I would think that it would be safe to use with 38-40 ammo still or Special brass with very thick necks maybe turned from bar if not parent case can be found to shorten leaving thick neck.

Tim

[missionary5155]

Howdy
You would want to also consider taking a mold with you next time down. You can easily reload that fired brass by "scrounging" powder and primer from other readily available ammo. I use 45 ACP to reload my 44 WCF. A set of old Lee "hammer" dies also.
Another option is to suggest to your brother to be on the lookout for a 44WCF barrel in that country. In my near 30 years here in Peru I have seen and held 5 model 1892's. 4 were 44 WCF. The other one was an incomplete 32-20 (I think no markings left) that had been rechambered to 9MM which was loaded as a single shot. As I understand 44 WCF was the most exported caliber to South America.
Mike in Peru

[Camba]

One of my childhood friends bought a 1892 in 44 wcf a few years back. He found it among some farmer that had it behind a door for who knows how long. He paid $20 bucks for it and took it to a local gunsmith and re-blued it. Because all of the pitting on the gun, after the blueing, there were no much markings (readable) left but it is a 1892, 44 wcf, and has a ring attached to the receiver. The tubular magazine cannot hold the rounds as it will spring out of it. A good tubular replacement magazine can be a good thing for that rifle. I asked my brother to pay him a visit to see if he's willing to sell it to swap barrels and magazine. Next time I visit, I will bring some goodies for him.
As far as other more readily available ammo is the shotgun shells. I had experimented with them in the past with both cast 22 boolits and regular jacketed in my 223 Rem. What I did was to disassemble the 12 ga cartridge and melt the lead to make the cast 22 boolits and utilized 8 grains of the shotgun powder ( assuming it was as fast as red dot). It did shoot. Not the best for such a small sample but it can be done. The jacketed bullet did a little better. The point was to be able in a pinch (using the McGiver technique :) ) use a 223 rem to bring down a small game at a distance where a #7 shot would not do much. The accuracy could be good enough to bring down a pecari pig or so. My brother is SE from where you are, in the neighboring country.
Camba

[Camba]

Another bit of information I go from my brother is that the 44-40 fits in the chamber fine and you can action the rifle without much trouble. He only fired one shot to test it for the first time and he noted that the spent cartridge gets harder to extract, leaving scratching marks. I thought it is from just crude scraping of the chamber to make it fit by the person who open it up. Given the fact that the neck diameter difference between the two calibers is about 0.8 mm. I am wonder if it can still shoot the 38-44 wcf with it.
Camba


I would think that it would be safe to use with 38-40 ammo still or Special brass with very thick necks maybe turned from bar if not parent case can be found to shorten leaving thick neck.

Tim

[Speedo66]

Since a .38-40 is a necked down .44-40, I think it would be safe to fire .38-40 through it. The case necks might fire form a little large, but a reloading die should take them back down.

There might be some split necks, but I can't see any pressure issues. Be sure and wear shooting glasses though.

If he can send it to you, maybe you can sell it here, and send him the funds to buy another. If there's a problem, should be easier to correct here.

[MtGun44]

Get some accurate dimensions from the fired case - maybe have him send it to you.

May be OK for .38-40 ammo, and maybe reloading if only neck sizeing.

Push comes to shove and he can fire three cases, send them to RCBS and get
custom dies made. Not cheap, probably $200 or so.

Bill

[Green Frog]

The suggestions about custom cases (to shoot a .401" bullet out of an otherwise 44-40 chamber) will probably not work... the brass of the neck will not hold that small diameter bullet in that large a chamber, so you are right back to shooting 38-40 ammo in a 44-40 chamber... an option, but not a good one. As I see it, there are two satisfactory solutions, both of which have already been broached.

My first choice would probably be to sleeve the chamber only... this would involve making a short piece of barrel stock into a bushing the length of the chamber, reaming the existing barrel (chamber only) then silver soldering the bushing in and rechambering to the proper specs. I prefer this method because it preserves as much of the original gun as possible while making it able to shoot its original round. :D

My second choice would be to rebarrel the rifle (there in SA.) Perhaps your brother can work out an equitable deal with your friend or someone else for a suitable donor gun, (with good bore in either in 38-40 or 44-40.) Changing the barrel would leave a mismatch of finish wear, etc, but would give a good shootable rifle and he would also pick up some spare parts that he might be able to sell to someone else stuck with a rifle he can't shoot for some reason! :)

Good luck with it!
Froggie

PS Somebody mentioned reboring to 44-40 (.421" bore.) If somebody is able to do for him that locally in SA, that might be my "second choice" option and move rebarreling to third. ;)