Clip-On Wheel Weight XrF Data

[BNE]

I recently sorted through two, five gallon buckets of wheel weights. I kept a sample of every different type of wheel weight I found.
I separated them by brand label and then by weight. I wanted to see if the same alloy mix is used on different weights and then see how much variation occurs within an individual weight. (See samples # 6,7,8 below.)
It will take me several weeks to get the weights measured on the XrF and then posted, so bear with me please. I have at least a dozen different brands or types to measure.

First Group "AL"
97378

Next Group: "MC"
97498

Next Group "Micro"
98716

Next group: "No Label"
98717

Next Group "P"
100282

Next Group "T"
100283

Next Group "AL MC"
102678

This is my "To Do" List:
97500

[cabezaverde]

I am surprised at how consistent they are.

[William Yanda]

Thanks for an informative post. To me, it appears to confirm that + 1% tin, will give a lead allow with nearly even Sb/Sn which if I understand correctly will toughen the lead by forming a bimetallic network of crystals as it cools. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[lwknight]

BNE, that little sample assay right there is a is worth a lot.
Big help good info.
Thank you for your work.

[jmort]

Great post/info. I agree, there is consistency but it would be nice if they all just used 3% antimony like #5.

[khmer6]

Great data analysis. Thanks for sharing

[tomme boy]

These seem to be all newer type of WW's. Do you have any older ones? It would be neet to see the difference of older to the newer ones.

[lwknight]

Somebody already melted all the old WWs into boolits. They are in the berm.

[bangerjim]

Good info. Thanks for taking the time to do it and sharing!

banger

[badbob454]

awesome .... this helps to make a good alloy mix

[triggerhappy243]

would strait W/W make a good bullet for my 45 acp?

[NHGrumpyGramps]

Very good information. I wonder if you have any marked "Micro" as these seem to make a large part of what I find and wonder what the composition of these are?

[swheeler]

Good post and great information! They seem to be a little shy of tin, at the price of it I can see why.

[NewbieDave007]

Very cool. Thanks

[bhn22]

and I thought I was analytical...

[khmer6]

Somebody already melted all the old WWs into boolits. They are in the berm.

Hahahahaha ROFL. Somebody out there probably still has buckets and buckets they collected from the 70s

[BNE]

Thank for the nice comments folks.

I have added the second group and my "To Do List" so you can see what is coming.

If it is OK, I will just edit my original post each time I add new data. I think this will make it easier to reference in the future. If tere is a better way, please let me know.

You will see some variation in the appearance of the different weights. Some look clean and others look old and dirty. I am not sure if this is due to age, or they just belonged to somebody who never cleaned their car. IF SOMEONE has an old stash that they know has been held in reserve for
10+ years, it would be interesting to get those measured.

I do have some marked "Micro" and will do those next.

As for what this data means? I'm going to reserve judgement until I see more.

[lightman]

This is very interesting and I thank you for the work that is involved. Lightman

[fortrenokid]

Howdy Pard

Thanks for the very detailed research. I, too, was surprised at the relative consistency of the alloy mixes.

As a side note, I'm curious if you came across many non-lead wheel weights. I recently bot a 5-gal bucket of ww's from my tire dealer (they used to give 'em away free if I made tire purchases but not any more) and am more than a little distressed at the number of non-lead ww's. Now, most are lead but I am checking each ww individually. First I run a magnet over it and that picks out the ones with iron content (the ww itself; not the iron clip). Then I give them the "scratch test" by running a sharp nail over them. The lead ww's take a deep scratch; the non-lead ones either just barely take a scratch or the nail just slides over them. Many show up by visual inspection as they are stamped Fe (symbol for iron), Al (aluminum), or Zn (zinc). Some of the ones with Al must refer to a brand name as they are otherwise obviously lead.

The tire dealer gave me a good deal on the 5-gal bucket but there's quite a bit more hassle than in previous years to separate out the non-lead ones and , as the pile of non-lead ww's grows, it diminishes the amount of "good" ww's left for bullet casting.

Years back it seems that a non-lead ww was a comparative rarity ... but sadly not now.

[BNE]

Together both buckets were about 215 pounds. I was able to get ~150 pounds total into ingots from this. ~130 pounds were clip on and ~20 pounds of stick on. The rest were a mix of Zinc and steal. I use the bend or clip test to find the Zinc. I can't bend or clip Zinc. I tried scratching Zinc and was not able to tell a clear difference. By the second bucket, I was able to separate them mostly by the shape and the weight difference.

[el34]

Another vote of appreciation!
It shows me I can cut back on the added tin from 2% to 1%, and that's good news.

[DLCTEX]

Al. designates a weight that is safe to use on aluminum wheels and is either coated or of an alloy that will not corrode the wheel.

[richbug]

I'll give you A for effort, but there is a problem with your testing... The MC/AL/P/AWN/EN/TN etc... are the types of wheels they fit, not the manufacturer. I have a chart on my balancer. I think BADA makes/made most of them, at least the new ones I have.

[wistlepig1]

Good info and Future Sticky?

[BNE]

I'll give you A for effort, but there is a problem with your testing... The MC/AL/P/AWN/EN/TN etc... are the types of wheels they fit, not the manufacturer. I have a chart on my balancer. I think BADA makes/made most of them, at least the new ones I have.

Thanks. I would appreciate knowing how to match each type to the manufacturer. Either way, I sorted and grouped them by the label I could find on the weight. I added two more tonight.

[Mod42]

richbug is correct, the two letter code that you are sorting by is just the indicator for the rim type that the coww fits. There really are only three major producers of wheel weights in the USA, BADA is the largest, Perfect Equipment , and the third escapes me at the moment.

[pretzelxx]

You are the man! Thank you for this wealth of information, I have 200lbs waiting to be smelted.

[propwashp47]

# micro?

[evan price]

Thank you for this!!

Your research REALLY puts paid to all the people who say they NEED 92/6/2 Hardball alloy for 45 auto or other low velocity/low pressure loads...when we've been using straight clip WW the whole time which are roughly 97% lead, 2% antimony and 1% tin.

Next time cast bullet makers insist you need Hardball and 16 BHN for your pistol bullets, remember this study when you get leading.

[BNE]

# micro?

I don't understand your question. Can you expound?

[Defcon-One]

richbug is correct, the two letter code that you are sorting by is just the indicator for the rim type that the coww fits. There really are only three major producers of wheel weights in the USA, BADA is the largest, Perfect Equipment , and the third escapes me at the moment.


I think he was filling in the third one, but he wasn't sure, hence the question mark!


# MICRO?

*****************


The third company is PLOMBCO.

Yeah, that is why he put a "?". He was guessing!

[jsizemore]

Micro is made by BADA. The third company is PLOMBCO.

[Mod42]

I think that you will find that the formula changes very often due to the fact that the requirements for COWW is not very difficult. I would bet that raw materials are always out for bids, and the formula changes slightly each time raw materials are purchased. My guess would be that most COWW are made from recycled materials to begin with, which will constantly move the formula around.
Don't know any of this for a fact, but that is exactly what was done in the factory that I used to work for.

[GaryN]

I would also like to nominate this thread for stickie status. This is information we can all use. Especially when it is completed.

[sirsloop]

Where did you get the analysis done at? What was the cost?

Thx!

(Or do you have access to a XRF gun???!!) jealous!

[wrench man]

I'll give you A for effort, but there is a problem with your testing... The MC/AL/P/AWN/EN/TN etc... are the types of wheels they fit, not the manufacturer. I have a chart on my balancer. I think BADA makes/made most of them, at least the new ones I have.

Correct, I also have all of these NEW at work, I also, and for the most part use "I7" and "TAL" TRUCK wheel weights!, we use the "Perfect" brand at work.

[RogerDat]

Since one might typically melt a fairly large batch of COWW I am looking forward to finding out a combined average from all the different sets. Figure a hundred pound batch should follow the the composite average pretty well.

[BNE]

Where did you get the analysis done at? What was the cost?

Thx!

(Or do you have access to a XRF gun???!!) jealous!

I have access to several XrFs at work. The cos is just my time. I am very careful to not test during normal work hours or to get in the way of the off shifts. My boss is fully aware of me using the machines for a "government project" and I intend to not abuse this privilege. Between business being good and some travelling my time is limited. I hope to get another group in this week.

[RedHawk357Mag]

If your thinking of maybe having your lead assayed this is what I found looking for XrF services. I have yet to use them but will be sending my Lino/Mono/Foundry alloy in for a break down of material make up.

http://www.expressxrfanalysis.com/shipping-contact-info


Where did you get the analysis done at? What was the cost?

Thx!

(Or do you have access to a XRF gun???!!) jealous!

[Larry Gibson]

Have to commend BNE for the excellent post and information!

If we look at the average of the 4 different makes (how many of us really separate COWWs by make?), since most of us just smelt 'em down as they come out of the bucket, we see the average content of tin is .71% and the average content of antimony is 2.85%. I we add 2% tin as I always suggest we have 2.71% tin and 2.85% antimony. That is almost a perfect balance for the tin and antimony to mix as SbSn. That then mixes perfectly in solution (refer to the "Metallurgy" articles in Lyman's' CBHs).No wonder it turns out to be such an excellent alloy for fillout and hardness that is actually very close to Lyman's #2 alloy in performance.

Thanks again BNE.

Larry Gibson

[40-82 hiker]

would strait W/W make a good bullet for my 45 acp?

Late reply: Add 2% tin to COWWs and it makes a great boolit. Some alloy with pure lead too. I just use COWWs with the tin for 200gr. SWC for my NM pistol.

[cbrick]

I think that you will find that the formula changes very often due to the fact that the requirements for COWW is not very difficult. I would bet that raw materials are always out for bids, and the formula changes slightly each time raw materials are purchased. My guess would be that most COWW are made from recycled materials to begin with, which will constantly move the formula around.
Don't know any of this for a fact, but that is exactly what was done in the factory that I used to work for.

I've agreed with this and have posted the same for several years.

What has really surprised me is that this is the third such test over the last several months including weights from both coasts and weights collected over several years, both clip-on and stick-on weights and the results have actually varied very little. Maybe shocked is a better word than surprised. It is good news for us certainly but . . . well, surprising.

Rick

[mikeym1a]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says add 1lb 50/50 solder to 9lb WW to get Lyman #2 equivalent. So, I've used that for years in my handgun, only I did 10lbs WW to 1lb 50/50. Works great.

[histed]

Just found this thread (so much to read here). Its information like this that makes it easier for us newbies to get the right mix for the right boolit first time out. Thanks for the information. This has been a very helpful discussion for me

[BNE]

I added "P" and "T" today. In case yo are wondering, I scraped a spot on the back of these to get through the paint or dirt.

[quack1]

Would it be possible to add zinc to the elements you are looking for? I'm guessing that since most new weights are made of recycled used weights, there would be more and more zinc included over time. I can't imagine the manufacturers would sort out zinc weights when they recycle the used ones. Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire, but having ever increasing amounts zinc in the alloy over time might eventually cause some problems with casting bullets. I hope any zinc would be a very small percentage, but checking for it periodically might be an eye opener.

[wrench man]

Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire

You don't balance tires do you!??, we see Zn weights all the time as Les Schwab, the nations #3 tire seller, has gone to them and I have to redo the balance they put on tires all the time!, Zn weight SUCK for balancing tire too!

[quack1]

You don't balance tires do you!??, we see Zn weights all the time as Les Schwab, the nations #3 tire seller, has gone to them and I have to redo the balance they put on tires all the time!, Zn weight SUCK for balancing tire too!

No, never balanced tires, but now I'm curious. Why would zinc be any worse than lead weights (or steel weights, for that matter) when used to balance tires? Other than a zinc weight being a little larger than a comparable weight made of lead, I'd think anything with some weight, clipped or stuck on the rim in the right spots, would do the job of balancing. Am I missing something?

[BNE]

Would it be possible to add zinc to the elements you are looking for? I'm guessing that since most new weights are made of recycled used weights, there would be more and more zinc included over time. I can't imagine the manufacturers would sort out zinc weights when they recycle the used ones. Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire, but having ever increasing amounts zinc in the alloy over time might eventually cause some problems with casting bullets. I hope any zinc would be a very small percentage, but checking for it periodically might be an eye opener.

Yes it is possible. I have actually already done it out of curiosity. The only problem is the way the machine works....If you tell it what to look for, it will try to find it... Typically it will show a VERY small amount like 0.05% or even give you a negative value. I am trying to learn more about it each time I measure samples. The machine will display the spectrum during the scan. Any element present in measureable quantities will show a peak in that area of the spectrum. So I set the machine up to look for Pb, Sn, Sb, and As, but I also look at the spectrum during the scan and look for any peaks that are above the random "noise level". If I get a chance to measure this week, I will try to print out a scan and post it so you can see what I mean.

Having spent most of my career as a process engineer, I doubt they are getting much Zinc in their melts. This is just my opinion, but I would hope that a company set up for smelting alloy for WW would have enough process control capability in their equipment to prevent Zinc gettig melted into the mix. If they allowed Zinc in, they would have the same issues we have with casting and they would not reach their advertised weight. I could definately see them not being too concerned about using a little less Tin or Antimony, but I think Zinc would mess up their process. Again, just my opinion. I hope to track down a technician or a process engineer at one of the WW manufacturers. A few questions would greatly add to our knowledge here.

[wrench man]

No, never balanced tires, but now I'm curious. Why would zinc be any worse than lead weights (or steel weights, for that matter) when used to balance tires? Other than a zinc weight being a little larger than a comparable weight made of lead, I'd think anything with some weight, clipped or stuck on the rim in the right spots, would do the job of balancing. Am I missing something?

You NEED the weight in a fairly specific location, as you spread them out they start to counteract each other, the lighter Zn weight will do this faster than the lead weight as they weigh about a two thirds of the Pb for the same volume, I took 7 Zn weights off of an 11R 22.5 on a Freightliner and put 3 Pb weights back on to make it right.
I've also had to use COWW and SOWW in the same location to get some of those big mud tires to balance out!

[AMT7]

I balance my own tires since commuting in a '94 2 door 3cyl Geo Metro being one of the lightest mass produced vehicles imported to us from Canada with a aluminum block, head and manual trans and 155 R 12 tires. It is extreemly succeptable to some resonances that get bad between 63 mph and 73 mph so a racer told me while I overhauled the engine overnight on a pallet in my driveway. I had the resonance issue he complaoned of. He was pushing 150 hp out of that 1L 3cyl stock trans with a ceramic clutch face that started life with 53 hp. However he had attributed the resonance to CV / axle, wheel rotor and engine resonance feedback peak but was wrong about the source as after thinking about it for several months and digging rocks out of my tires and noticing improvement that very slowly worsened over many tens of thousands of miles we decided to search forums and talk to old timers about light tire motorcycle balancing issues and resonances which rose to improper wheel assy balancing as most common cause. So we bought a cheap tire buster from HF and a inexpensive wheel bubble balancer and very carefully balanced all four used tires after removing pebles, and about half or more of the spin machine job weight installed when tires were new. So goes it with every spin balanced wheel assy since on about 6 vehicles and several sets of tires since including our 95 Merc Villager minivan with Michelins. The use of zinc or any other lighter material less mass / density will surely worsen the balance job from an already not near ideal starting point. Those old sage engineers realy knew their stuff when choosing lead IMHO. I dont get my lighter vehicles, Geo Metro or Mazda MX-3 with 1.6L 4cyl and 5 spd manual trans tires mounted or balanced ever we bought a box of valve stems and DIY and I have two of the most stable acting vehicles on solid ice I have ever driven, as we own 10.

[RogerDat]

On the consistency from manufacturer, I doubt that WW companies are melting used WW's. My guess is the "scrap" from recycler goes to someplace that produces the ingots to specifications from scrap. That company probably has production process to sort out the component metals in an alloy for remix to meet specifications of standard alloys consistently for general resale.

Scrap gold gets processed to remove the silver, nickel, copper etc. in order to get pure gold. And the metals removed are also sold in their pure form. No reason they would not do this for scrap lead. After all the tin content of the solder in the lead bin at the local recycler is worth a great deal more than the lead. Worth noting when you sell scrap gold you only get paid for the percentage of "gold" times your weight. The silver, copper, nickel etc. is bonus money for the place that actually does the melting.

[evan price]

Zinc and iron tire weights suck for two reasons:
1. Not as dense, so the weight isn't as concentrated in the spot that needs it (Weights are bigger for same weight).
2. They are too hard. Lead weights will conform to the rim better when hammered in place. The zinc and iron weights don't bend. They rely entirely on the spring clip to hold them on the rim. If the spring clip is cheap and poorly treated (common) they will break or fail and the weight flies off when you hit a bump.

[BNE]

I just added "AL-MC". Sorry for the long delay since my last post. Work has had me on the road and it been busy when I've been back in the plant.

The picture below is a print out of one of the "AL-MC" weights. This "Spectrum" is what I monitor while scanning. The two large peaks are both for lead. Note the "-0.05 value for As. I would interperate this as 0% As present.
102688

Sorry for the grainy picture. I need to figure out how to save it as a PDF and then have a link here.

[cbrick]

The link to the attachment isn't working.

Rick

[AMT7]

Same here.
What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.

[gtgeorge]

Same here.
What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.

Don't do it. Car batteries are not safe to melt and would not yield useable lead for casting bullets. Leave car batteries for the foundry although you could salvage the posts.

Here is the sticky why not http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?40769-Why-Car-Batteries-Are-Dangerous

[cbrick]

Same here.
What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.

Not only for your own sake but for those in the area around you . . . Don't do it!

Rick

[btroj]

Same here.
What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.

Car batteries are bad news. Like kills you dead bad news.

I would take them to a recycler and let the pros deal with them.

Don't become a statistic.

[BNE]

As for the question of what good does 0.1% As do for you? Read the alloy chapter in "From Ingot to Target" and he will give you all the detail you could want.

[HeavyMetal]

Has anyone suggested this be a sticky?

This is great info that needs to be put someplace it won't drop off, I'd also like to see the test sheets just a tad larger.

Meanwhile I will see if I can print each sheet larger for a refference folder for the next time I blend an alloy.

Nice to see manufacturing ha some consistancy WW alloy has been debated here for yrs and this certainly irons out that wrinkle.

[cbrick]

Has anyone suggested this be a sticky?

This is great info that needs to be put someplace it won't drop off, I'd also like to see the test sheets just a tad larger.

Meanwhile I will see if I can print each sheet larger for a refference folder for the next time I blend an alloy.

Nice to see manufacturing ha some consistancy WW alloy has been debated here for yrs and this certainly irons out that wrinkle.

There is another thread with more XrF testing that is a sticky. This thread should be combined with that thread and locked to avoid trying to find this important data in a 300 post thread. As for me, I copied the info from both threads and combined them in a Word document. Much too valuable info to loose.

Rick

[BNE]

I plan to make and post a summary sheet when I get through. Each group is consistent enough that the average values will be useful. I'm sorry it is taking so long, If I didn't have that nagging day job to take care of... Oh wait, thats who is letting me use the equipment and paying me....

PM me if you want the actual Excel file.

[Harry O]

Hahahahaha ROFL. Somebody out there probably still has buckets and buckets they collected from the 70s

Just a couple of weeks ago, I bought a .50cal ammo box at an estate sale that was about half filled with wheel weights. All were good. I melted them down and cast them into ingots. Got 15-1/2 lbs for $4.00. They cast clean and measured about Bhn 12 or so after a few days of setting. Most of the other stuff in his garage was for work on OLD cars (lots of points & condensors, spark plugs, etc.). 1970's would have been a good guess. I admit the number of such finds are a LOT fewer now, but I still find them once in a while.

[RichardF]

Offer still good for a spreadsheet of this info? Thanks!

[lightman]

BNE just sent me the results from some samples that I sent to be tested. Four years after the test posted at the beginning of this thread, clip-on weights still seem to be about the same alloy. My samples were a random ingot from 2 different 350# batches smelted from a 6000# haul.

Sample #1 Sample #2
PB- 96.7 PB- 96.4
SB- 2.7 SB- 2.8
SN- 0.6 SN- 0.8

These were not sorted by brand or type, just 100% clip-on weights. If it matters, they came from the deep South.

[Brass&Lead]

Thank you for all the time and effort that you put into this. It has helped me understand WW.

[Daekar]

I recently purchased two boxes of COWW from different eBay sellers, one 50lbs and one a bit over 70lbs. After melting them down into 1lbs ingots, I performed a ~25% sample across the entire yield. The attached printout has the complete dataset, but the overall numbers are:

Sn_avg = 0.416% StdDev 0.072%
Sb_avg = 2.236% StdDev 0.196%
Pb_avg = 97.101% StdDev 0.336%
Zn_avg = 0.085% StdDev 0.024%

All other elements fell below the sensor's level of detail.

That looks pretty shootable to me on its own, and just a bit of tin from scrap solder rolls could even out your SnSb levels. Does this look much like the COWWs of yore?

[John Boy]

Great data ….l