200 grain boolit load in 38 S&W for Webley & Scott

[DonMountain]

I bought two Webley and Scott English top break revolvers 20 or 30 years ago, and didn't have much luck reloading Hornady 158 grain lead boolits in them. So I gave up reloading for them. Recently I came across a company named Matt's Bullets just South of me in Arkansas that was reproducing the correct 0.361" diameter, 200 grain lead boolits and decided to order some. Since they have shipped from the factory, I started looking for loading data for them. But the only thing I came across was in "Cartridges of the World", 6th Edition, by Frank C. Barnes, dated 1989. And their only load for a 200 grain lead boolit is 3.1 grains of Unique. Since that data was derived so long ago, I was wondering if anyone here has some more up-to-date powders and loads for a 200 grain boolit for a Webley. I would appreciate some suggestions.

[Outpost75]

I am not shooting a Webley, but in a Ruger. A charge of 2 grs. of Bullseye, 2.8 of W231 or 3.5 of Unique gives 630 fps in my 4" revolver, approximating the old. 380-200 load.

I would back off these 10% to start.

[jumbeaux]

Outpost75 are you lucky enough to own one of the .380 Rimmed Rugers (Speed Six) that were made for India and Northern Ireland ? If so, did you buy it when they first came out or were you able to find one when CDNN sold the surplus police trade ins ? I would love one but they are too rare and too many $$$...

rick

[mikeym1a]

The handloaders manual of cartridge conversions lists a load, 150gr boolit, dia .359, 4.7 grs Unique, 890fps. I know, not the british load, but, that Webley was a well built piece, and should easily stand up to that load. My old Speer Manual #8 has several loads, none for the 200gr boolit. These loads are intended for the old top breaks made in the US, which were not nearly as strong as the Webley. They list a 125gr bulletwith 5.0grs unique for 1059fps, top load. and the heaviest boolit is a 158gr swc, 2.7 grs Red Dot, for 740fps, top load. None of these are what you were looking for, but there is some variables out there if you are interested. The Speer #8 was first published around 1970. Perhaps one of the older lyman manuals would have something for you. mikey I just checked my lyman # 4 manual, and it lists a 195gr boolit with several modern powder loads in the 600fps range. If you don't have one, you should find one, either the #3 or the #4. They really are a great help. :-D

[Outpost75]

Outpost75 are you lucky enough to own one of the .380 Rimmed Rugers (Speed Six) that were made for India and Northern Ireland ? If so, did you buy it when they first came out or were you able to find one when CDNN sold the surplus police trade ins ? I would love one but they are too rare and too many $$$...

rick

I don't own one of the contract revolvers, but bought an extra 9mm/.380Rim cylinder and crane assembly and fitted it to my "school gun" when attending the armorer's school, back in the 1980s.

[DonMountain]

The handloaders manual of cartridge conversions lists a load, 150gr boolit, dia .359, 4.7 grs Unique, 890fps. I know, not the british load, but, that Webley was a well built piece, and should easily stand up to that load. My old Speer Manual #8 has several loads, none for the 200gr boolit. These loads are intended for the old top breaks made in the US, which were not nearly as strong as the Webley. They list a 125gr bulletwith 5.0grs unique for 1059fps, top load. and the heaviest boolit is a 158gr swc, 2.7 grs Red Dot, for 740fps, top load. None of these are what you were looking for, but there is some variables out there if you are interested. The Speer #8 was first published around 1970. Perhaps one of the older lyman manuals would have something for you. mikey I just checked my lyman # 4 manual, and it lists a 195gr boolit with several modern powder loads in the 600fps range. If you don't have one, you should find one, either the #3 or the #4. They really are a great help. :-D

Thanks for the help. I have a Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" number 3 and it only goes up to a 158 grain boolit, which I tried with the Hornady 158 grain lead boolits. Thats when I discovered that the Webleys required a larger diameter boolit of maybe 0.361" diameter, and were designed for a 200 grain boolit. The Lyman "Reloading Handbook" 46th edition also lists 158 grain boolits as the max weight. Since I retired I can't afford any new books since my wife wants me to spend all of my money on construction materials for rebuilding the house. So I was wondering if you could post the loads for the 195 grain boolits from your Lyman #4? I would appreciate it as a guide.

[Char-Gar]

Funny you should mention that. I just got some of those same bullets from Matt in today's mail. I loaded them over 2.5/Unique for use in my Webley Mk. IV. My handgun is in good condition, but the Webley design just makes me a little queasy, so I am proceeding from an abundance of caution.

[mikeym1a]

Thanks for the help. I have a Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" number 3 and it only goes up to a 158 grain boolit, which I tried with the Hornady 158 grain lead boolits. Thats when I discovered that the Webleys required a larger diameter boolit of maybe 0.361" diameter, and were designed for a 200 grain boolit. The Lyman "Reloading Handbook" 46th edition also lists 158 grain boolits as the max weight. Since I retired I can't afford any new books since my wife wants me to spend all of my money on construction materials for rebuilding the house. So I was wondering if you could post the loads for the 195 grain boolits from your Lyman #4? I would appreciate it as a guide.
SURE, Glad too. And this comes with the standard statement,'...use at your own risk. use only in firearms in good repair, and never exceed maximum listed loads....' etc,etc,etc. #358430 - 195gr #2Alloy
Bullseye; starting load - 1.4gr - 451fps - 7200CUP == MAX - 1.6gr - 536 - 10500CUP
700X starting load - 1.4gr - 482fps - 7900CUP == MAX - 1.6gr - 544 - 12200CUP
Titegroup starting load - 1.5gr - 534fps - 9400CUP == MAX - 1.7gr - 602 - 12400CUP
N320 starting load - 1.5gr - 520fps - 9500CUP == MAX - 1.7gr - 544 - 10900CUP
231 starting load - 1.6gr - 489fps - 9100CUP == MAX - 1.8gr - 550 - 11200CUP
Unique starting load - 1.7gr - 516fps - 8100CUP == Max - 1.9 gr -605 - 12800CUP
sr-7625 starting load - 1.9gr - 493fps - 8800CUP == MAX - 2.2gr -542 - 10500CUP
AA#5 starting load - 2.6gr - 513fps - 9200CUP == MAX - 2.8gr -581 - 11700CUP
True Blue starting load - 2.2gr - 539fps - 8200CUP == MAX - 2.6gr -603 - 11200CUP

These are the loads listed in the Lyman #49 reloading manual, with the boolit listed above. Not sure what I've done with my #4 cast boolit manual. Can't seem to lay my hands on it today. They weren't in the stack of materials where I usually have them. GGGGRRRRR!!!!!!! I hate getting old. CRS. Anyway, hope this helps! mikey :-D

[mikeym1a]

Well, my neat columns all went to plzzzzzz. I'll edit and try to fix it.

Well, it did not stay in columns. Must not have been holding my mouth right. mikey

[Treeman]

Lyman 49 has data for 195grain boolits.
1.9 grains Unique for 605 fps at 12.8k CUP.
2.6 of True Blue for 603fps and 11.2k CUP
1.7 of Titegroup yielded 602 at 12.4k CUP

Those are the only listed loads that made over 600fps. Looking at the data for 158 grain boolits shows that it is reduced from what was listed in Lyman 45 or Speer 11. That is probably a combo of caution for all the old .38S&W guns and actually pressure testing the loads. Still it is possible to get an authentic load at mild pressures.

[Treeman]

Hah! Mikey beat me to it but my post is prettier. :^)

[DonMountain]

Thanks Mikey and Treeman for the data. This gives me a widening area of information to load from. Unfortunately Unique is the only powder I have available to load from for this 38 S & W so far. I have probably 15 different powders that I use for loading shotgun, magnum handgun and rifle. But none besides Unique on this list so far. My shotgun powders are too fast (Red Dot, Titewad, Clays and Promo). And my handgun powders except for Unique are too slow (Blue Dot, 2400, H110, SR4759, 680). And my rifle powders are totally too slow. Guess I need to look for some more handgun/magnum shotgun powders?

[9.3X62AL]

I have used 3.0 grains of Unique and 3.3 grains of Herco in 38 S&W loads for the Webley-Enfield and S&W M&P revolvers and the NEI #169A bullet, which duplicates the British WWII service bullet at 202 grains. These run about 650-675 FPS in both revolvers, and strike right where the sights look at 25 yards. Sizing matches the throats @ .363".

[Char-Gar]

I made it out to the range today with the Webley and loads in post #7 above. A couple of my pals, had never shot a Webley before and they wanted to give it a try. They had a blast and both tried to buy it from me on the spot. It is a sweet shooting mild load that shoots to the sights and give a very satisfying "whack" when it hits whatever. The pistol and load shoot as good as I can hold, so that makes me good to go.

[DonMountain]

Well, I decided to try a couple of loads using the suggested 3.0 grains of Unique under the 200 grain Matt's Boolits boolit. I am not sure what happen, but the boolits are so long when I seated it deep enough to crimp it over the front edge of the first ridge on the leading end of the boolit, the powder was really crushed in the small space under it, but there was about 3/16" of space left over in the cylinder. So I have decided to not seat it so deeply and to just turn the crimp down tight on the full diameter of the boolit so I can slide the cartridge into the cylinder, with maybe 1/16" of clear space in the cylinder. When I fired the longer two test cartridges at 25 yards, they hit about 1" apart and 3" above point of aim on the target, right in the center. But there appeared a slight crack in the new brass 1/4 of the way around the brass right where the bottom of the boolit had been. So, my next couple of test reloads are going to be, seating the boolit to clear the end of the cylinder by 1/16", load 2.5 grains of Unique and just closing the belled end of the casing tight to the surface of the boolit. Anybody have any more suggestions?

[Char-Gar]

The bullet in question has a crimp groove provided that when used gives a loaded round of correct length. Load 2.5 grains of unique and set the crimp at the top of the tapered crimp groove. It works great. The rounds in pic 7 above are loaded with Matt's bullet.

[9.3X62AL]

The NEI #169A bullet has a L-O-N-G nose and short rear drive-band section with one lube groove centered between the bands. When crimped into the provided groove, the cartridge is JUST short enough to fit in the Webley's charge holes and clear the barrel's forcing cone. The bullet is in fact longer than the case it is seated into--.810" vs. .775".

There are all sorts of quirks the reloader needs to be ready for in dealing with the 38 S&W. The case walls are relatively thick, and vary between makes. This can cause gymnastics events when trying to fit fatter or slimmer bullets into cases of varying makes for revolvers of varying dimensions. The RCBS seating die for its Cowboy Die Set will not accept a drive band shank that mikes at or larger than .362"--nicely enough, the NEI bullet's shank never enters the bullet alignment sleeve of this die--only its undersized nose. I have also had to resort to using the slightly wider 9mm Makarov tungsten sizer die with the thickest brass makes (W-W nickel-plated), otherwise the brass gets over worked. The Makarov's .361" expander spud is just the thing for prepping cases for the .363" bullets, too.

[Char-Gar]

Here is a pic of the .361 Webley bullet that Matt sells. IIRC it comes from a group buy mold we did a few years back. Sorry for the fuzzy pic, but it is a severe crop. I am using W-W cases and an older set of Lyman dies. The expander plug is the traditional .356 which is to small. I open up the cases with a .3585 RCBS wadcutter expanding plug and the use the Lyman to put a slight bell on the case to accept the bullet base without shaving lead. This makes for a two step expanding and belling, but such is the way of dealing with odd ball rounds like this. The seating die in the Lyman set works just fine with this bullet.

I think the use of a Makarov expander is a good idea, but I just use what I have.

[DonMountain]

The Matt's Bullets that I received measure 0.825" long, 0.361" in diameter, have two lube grooves, and a slightly reduced diameter nose section with a hemispherical front tip. The picture appears to have a slight taper to it and mine is not that way. Maybe I ordered the wrong one from Matt? And mine doesn't have the crimping groove. And weighs 206 grains. My 38 S & W die set from Hornady expanded the casings and belled the mouth for easy insertion of these boolits. How long is your loaded round?

[9.3X62AL]

I wish I could post a pic of the NEI bullet like Char-Gar did. To compare, my bullet's bands are shorter and the lube groove a mite narrower than Matt's bullet in the pic. FWIW.

I have also "fattened" Lyman #358430 to about .361" via Beagling prior to obtaining the NEI mould. These shot OK in the Webley-Enfield, no leading resulted. These 200 grain bullets do give a healthy WHANG to iron plates at 25 yards, even at their modest velocities. Lotta fun to be had with these old revolvers.

[Char-Gar]

The Matt's Bullets that I received measure 0.825" long, 0.361" in diameter, have two lube grooves, and a slightly reduced diameter nose section with a hemispherical front tip. The picture appears to have a slight taper to it and mine is not that way. Maybe I ordered the wrong one from Matt? And mine doesn't have the crimping groove. And weighs 206 grains. My 38 S & W die set from Hornady expanded the casings and belled the mouth for easy insertion of these boolits. How long is your loaded round?

Matt makes and sells 4 .361 bullets for the 38 S&W, three of which are a nominal 200 grains. One copies the Webley Mk I, another (mine) the Webley MkII and the third for solid frame revolvers. Thus far I have had good results with the Mk II in my early 50s Singapore police Webley Mk IV, pictured above.

[DonMountain]

Matt makes and sells 4 .361 bullets for the 38 S&W, three of which are a nominal 200 grains. One copies the Webley Mk I, another (mine) the Webley MkII and the third for solid frame revolvers. Thus far I have had good results with the Mk II in my early 50s Singapore police Webley Mk IV, pictured above.

Ok, I have the one Matt sells as the Mk 1 boolit. I'll try seating them out a little farther so they just fit in the cylinder and crimp the casing tight to the boolit with 2.5 grains of Unique and go shoot them! See what happens.

[Char-Gar]

Ok, I have the one Matt sells as the Mk 1 boolit. I'll try seating them out a little farther so they just fit in the cylinder and crimp the casing tight to the boolit with 2.5 grains of Unique and go shoot them! See what happens.

I am going to load some more today and I will measure the OAL and post it here.

[Char-Gar]

I am going to load some more today and I will measure the OAL and post it here.

1.3260"..oops that should read 1.2360

[DonMountain]

1.3260"

You must a different Webley and Scott than I have. The overall length of my cylinder with a cartridge seated, and including the rim thickness is 1.260". The cylinder length is 1.214" on both of my Webley's. So, are mine odd ones? They both look the same with the same markings but one of them has a cross bolt safety button on it that locks the hammer from coming back. So neither of mine will take the cartridge length of 1.3260" that you can load in yours. So I need to load mine more than 1/16" shorter in order to fit in the cylinder and clear. Plus a little for safety.

[DonMountain]

Ok, I reset my boolit seating die to end up with a total cartridge length of 1.250", leaving just a hair of length short of the cylinder end. And crimp them in tight to the boolit surface. I hope they won't budge in recoil under 2.5 grains of Unique. But the powder just fits in the space now, without being crushed like before. I will take them out to the range tomorrow. Since I will be there anyway splitting some firewood before it rains again. I loaded 6 of them so I can shoot 3 of them and have my wife shoot 3 of them for comparison. I have been having trouble with her and shooting. Me and the son-in-law were out back the barn shooting trap on Saturday and the girls came out to see what we were doing, and ended up shooting up more than half of my ammo and all of my skeet. And she sent me out to the store to get more. And a couple of more boxes of reloads for the 12 gauge from the house.

[Char-Gar]

Pics with numbers..My dyslexia with numbers kicked in again on the cartridge overall length stated above. I inverted two numbers. These pic will keep me from pulling the same stunt again.

[DonMountain]

Ok, I shot my 6 loaded rounds with the 209 grain Matt's Boolits MK-1 Webley model. Loaded at 1.250" over all length, with 2.5 grains of Unique and Remington small pistol primers in Winchester casings. They shot real well without the boolits creeping forward in the cylinder. I haven't quite had enough practice though to see where the sights will hit. The last two at 25 yards hit real close to what I was shooting at on the target. So now its back to the loading bench to load another 50 for accuracy testing. Its just unusual in firing this gun to hear it go off and then it seems like a long period of time and you can hear the boolit hit the metal target holder (an old road speed limit sign left in the ditch in front of my farm). So, it looks like if I was deer hunting with this pistol and the deer was running, I would have to lead them quite a bit? Even at 25 yards?

[9.3X62AL]

These bullets do take a little time to arrive. I don't think I would deer hunt with these loads--the 357 Magnum with similar-weight bullets might not be a bad combination, but my Lyman #358430s in the 357 start out and arrive at twice the velocity of these 200 grain 38 S&W loads. Apples and oranges, entirely--and the bullets are cast as softpoints.

[Outpost75]

Dusting off this old thread, Accurate 36-190T is probably the optimum bullet for those wanting a heavy, low velocity bullet for the .38 S&W or .38 Special.

Correct charge for standard pressure in the Colt Police Positive, Webley Mark IV or S&W Victory Model is 2 grains of TiteGroup measured with RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #00, or 2.2 grains of Bullseye using the Little Dandy Rotor #0.

In the S&W Model 32-1 Terrier, Model 33 Regulation Police, or the Ruger India Model Service Six you can go up to the Little Dandy Rotor #1 (2.5 grains) of Bullseye, or 3.5 grains of Olin AutoComp, measured by the same rotor.

When crimped in the crimp groove using .38 Special brass, Ctg. OAL is 1.59".

The standard pressure load in the .38 Special is 3.0 grains of Bullseye measured using Little Dandy rotor #3.

The +P load in .38 Special is 3.5 grains of Bullseye, measured with Little Dandy rotor #5 or 4.9 grains of AutoComp measured with the same rotor.

211143

[9.3X62AL]

Outpost et al--

This Accurate Molds #36-190T looks in all respects to be a superior design to service the needs of a heavy-for-caliber bullet in 38/200, 38 Special, or 357 Magnum. It could easily replace at least 2 existing moulds in my cabinet, though I would greatly miss Lyman #358430/195 grain version--that bullet just plain SHOOTS in 38s and 357s. Someone still exploring the possibilities in this venue could do far worse than to get an Accurate #36-190T, for darn sure.

[Outpost75]

With its .442" nose length, OAL in .357 Magnum brass would be 1.73", OK in NM Rugers, but not S&Ws

[9.3X62AL]

With its .442" nose length, OAL in .357 Magnum brass would be 1.73", OK in NM Rugers, but not S&Ws

Not very different than Lyman #358429 in that respect. #36-190T might be best-suited to the 38/200 niche, but it could do good service in other calibers with a few adjustments.

[Outpost75]

Not very different than Lyman #358429 in that respect. #36-190T might be best-suited to the 38/200 niche, but it could do good service in other calibers with a few adjustments.

Absolutely Stellar in .38 Special!

[Outpost75]

I just received back from John Taylor the .38 S&W barrel fitted to my pre-war H&R .44/.410 shotgun frame. Barrel is 20" long, and 0.70" diameter at the muzzle. Overall length of gun is 34-1/2" and it weighs 4-1/2 pounds. Barrel is a Green Mountain 9mm Parabellum blank in 1:10" twist, because I wanted to stabilize the 36-190T bullet at the lowest velocity which would reliably exit the barrel. Chamber reamer which John now has is a custom from Dave Manson which has a .363 major diameter to the forcing cone and 3 degrees, Basic throat with no cylindrical ball seat.

Photo of breech seated 36-190T bullet shows engraving on forepart of bullet as breech is closed.

When seated and crimped in the crimp groove nose will still be engraved, but not as forcefully.

The .38 S&W cartridge is an ideal choice for use in old blackpowder actions as the factory rounds don't exceed 14,000 psi, and unlike .38 Special, there are no +Ps to worry about accidentally getting into the rifle. I haven't had a chance to shoot this yet, as it just arrived today, but I will be testing a variety of factory .38 S&W loads in this rifle, as well as my S&W Victory Model with 5" barrel and S&W Model 32-1 with 2" barrel. I will also work up handloads in the Ruger India Model with 4" barrel and try those in the rifle when the weather gets warmer.

Objective is NOT to see how much velocity I can get, but to see how low and slow I can get with the 190-grain bullet for minimum noise. My reasoning is that an ordinary revolver load which gets 600 fps. should exit the rifle barrel, but with the tiny powder charge and 20 inch barrel, velocity gain should be modest and muzzle exit pressure very low. I don't expect rifle velocities with standard-pressure 190-grain loads to exceed 750 fps. A mild "Lettuce Defender" which won't disturb the neighbors.

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