Bottom Pour or Ladle?

[Themoose]

I'm an old geezer, but not stuck in my ways and am willing to learn... I have been casting for years over a propane burner using cast iron pots and ladle...although I do have a Lee 10 lb and an old unmarked (Saeco, I think) electric pot that holds about 25lbs. I mostly cast projectiles from 300-600 grains and have pretty much stayed with the propane/ladle method... This winter has forced me to stay inside to do my casting and got me to thinking which is always an opportunity for disaster of some sort.
In what few times I tried, I had poor luck in casting acceptable "boolits" from the electric pots... I attributed this to the slower method of filling... and also loss of temperature... I have had better luck with the ladle in getting good fillout and less defects with the same alloy used in both methods...
Now, I have been reading about PIDS... could this be the answer to my problem... does anyone have good experience with them in casting big, heavy "boolits" or should I stay with the ladle?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

TheMoose

[bangerjim]

I cast 300gn 45's with a 4-20 bottom pour with excellent success, especially using pressure casting. I have tried using the lyman "bottom-side" pour CI ladle with only success on small cal 2 cav molds.

I would highly recommend the bottom pour method because your source of hot lead never runs out! Unless you forget to fill you pot! And you NEVER get dross or worry about floating garbage with a bottom pour.

A PID controller will NOT compensate for technique! Only controls the lead temp. I do not use any thermometer or PID (I sell them in my company!) at all and get perfect pours from just experience and knowing what to watch for about lead and mold temps. The most key thing I have learned is to preheat the mold(s) on an electric hotplate!

bangerjim

[OuchHot!]

Moose, I started like you going from kitchen stove to propane and a pot all, with ladles. I still choose to cast BPCR boolits with a ladle and now have a WAAGE but propane and a pot worked well also. I do not use a PID on the waage. I only went to PID on bottom pour pots because I have a flock of multiple cavity molds in a wide variety of boolit sizes (.22 45gr on up) and in iron, brass, and aluminum. The variety of heat capacity coupled with the rather large dead band in both my pro-melt and 4-20 just made life too irritating. I have found that some molds (lee 6 cavity aluminum and four cavity Mihec hollow point) need fast casting cycles that my poor wrists cannot handle using a ladle. I cast a lot of boolits without a PID but found that my Pro-melt and a friend's both had very large temp fluctuations and the lee 4-20 was even worse. The PID proved to be a real help there. As long as I was working with 1-2 cavity molds, I never noticed the need for PID.

[Hickok]

Themoose, I after about 40 years of using the pot and laddle, I still like it the best. I tryed the bottom pour electric pot, but I guess I am just too contrary to change. I can run good boolits faster and better the "old fashioned way."

Whatever makes the boolit casting enjoyable and most rewarding for you is what counts!

[OuchHot!]

At the risk of starting a war, I think that the PID thing is a bit of a fad and being sold as a necessity.....unless your pot has no control whatever, it isn't. A good eyeball can set a propane pot just fine for most purposes. One thing I have found is the dial thermometers that were sold 20-30yrs ago were sometimes pretty sorry. A good thermometer (electronic is cheap nowadays) does help getting dialed in. I am starting to write labels for my molds as to what temp for the pot and what temp for the hotplate and I seem to get going faster. I am getting old and stupid so I need lots of notes like this. PID helps there.

[Themoose]

Thanks for the input folks. A couple of the concerns I have is that the large pot, which I am most interested for longer sessions with larger bullets has no heat control on it at all... it is either fully on or off.... think it was an old Saeco that had some southern engineering done. I was concerned about the quality of large projectiles from a bottom pour... I cast a lot of shotgun slugs and great plains style bullets weighing from 400-600 gr. Pistol bullets in the range of 200-300 would probably be ok with the bottom pour and may be better when making hollowpoints with a Cramer style mold.

Thanks again

[blixen]

Timely post for me. I just upgraded from my white-gas Coleman stove, stainless-steel pot and ladle method to a new Lee Pro 4-20 bottom-pouring melter. I only upgraded because my Coleman clogged up and it seemed ridiculous to invest in another one.

It took a while to figure out the temperatures with the Lee--i was running too hot at first. But in about an hour I had it right and my production went up . Also, I seem to have less bad boolits. (Note: I've only had one casting session.)

Bonus: The whole set up seems to be safer, for me anyway--less interaction with hot lead, implements and open flames.

[OuchHot!]

At the end of the day, I can say the Chinese PID that I have messed with all worked well and were cheaper than any mechanical alternative. Auber has good stuff and fast shipping but I bought some off ebay with no problems. I do some other things that really, truly need tight control and the $30 PID is just marvelous. I just don't want anyone to get the idea they have to have PID. For the large pot with no control, there is no question a PID will make you smile (after it trains). They really do work well.

[bangerjim]

Timely post for me. I just upgraded from my white-gas Coleman stove, stainless-steel pot and ladle method to a new Lee Pro 4-20 bottom-pouring melter. I only upgraded because my Coleman clogged up and it seemed ridiculous to invest in another one.

It took a while to figure out the temperatures with the Lee--i was running too hot at first. But in about an hour I had it right and my production went up . Also, I seem to have less bad boolits. (Note: I've only had one casting session.)

Bonus: The whole set up seems to be safer, for me anyway--less interaction with hot lead, implements and open flames.

I do not use a PID. I have found for 95% of my sessions, I set the 4-20 pot dial at 5.5-6 and get perfect pours with a preheated mold.

Hey............... this is not rocket science! I have at my access many high-end temp controllers and T/C's in the company I own, but I choose NOT to use any of them. If the pot was made for a t/c, then mabe. But having wires and probes running around all over the casting area................not for me. These Rube Goldberg after market fit-ups are indeed a fad.

Just go with your gut/instinct/knowledge and you will get perfect boolits every time!

banger

[bhn22]

Bah! Them new-fangled bottom drippers are a passing fad. Treat yourself to a new ladle and live a little!

[dikman]

Bah! Them new-fangled bottom drippers are a passing fad. Treat yourself to a new ladle and live a little!

:grin: But, hey, a guy's got to have his toys, and bottompours and PID's are fun toys to play with.

[Dale53]

Themoose;
I have been casting since about 1950. I started with a Lyman ten lb. cast iron pot on the kitchen stove and a ladle. I made good bullets, but slow. I met an older man at the range (Lord, he must have been at least 35 years old[smilie=1:), and he showed me how to cast in volume. I bought a Lyman 11 lb bottom pour and I spent the time learning how to use it. I have never looked back. My production went from about 100 good bullets and hour to about 700 good bullets an hour (using multiple cavity moulds). I used that pot until I wore it out, a couple of hundred thousand bullets later). I rebuilt the pot until it was working as good as new and sold it to a feller that is still using it. I bought an RCBS 22 lb bottom pour and later added another one that I got from an Estate sale for small change.

I competed in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette for 15 years. 40/65's and 45/70's require BIG bullets. There was a bit of a learning curve to produce LOTS of big bullets but GOOD big bullets. If you are going to be competitive in BPCR, your bullets must be GOOD. If I had to go back to using a ladle, I might "take gas"...

I even cast commercially for a few years, as a side line, so I have a pretty good feel as to what works well. I do not have a PID but have nothing against them (whatever works for you...). My RCBS pots work just fine, as issued, thank you. I did have to show a fellow shooter and caster how to adjust the temperature on his RCBS so the knob read correctly. RCBS would have fixed it but he didn't want to send it back.

At any rate, do not be afraid of a bottom pour pot. Those how can't cast good bullets with them just haven't learned how to do it.

I pre-heat all of my moulds, whether aluminum, brass or iron. I leave the screw lose that adjusts the valve handle. As the pot level drops I give the screw a tweak with my gloved fingers to maintain a constant flow. I set my moulds about 1/2"-3/4" inch below the spout. Adjust the flow until its just on the "strong side" of dribbling (just barely continuously flowing). I run my temps at 675-725 depending on the alloy. I run it a bit hotter for hollow point moulds (maybe as much as 750). Temps checked with a good thermometer.

NOTE:
The Saeco melting pot you have originally came in two versions. One had a thermostat. One, did not, it was cheaper. I made the mistake of buying the one without the thermostat. I still have it. It works well but it is a pain to plug it in and unplug it to TRY to control temperature. Now, THAT pot is a good candidate for a PID. I may rehab it and add a PID and put it back in service as a melter to enable continuous casting (to feed my casting pot).

Hope the information is of help,

Dale53

[Themoose]

Dale53,
Thanks for the info... sounds like I have the cheaper Saeco.. there is no control... a previous owner installed a knife-switch so that he did not have to plug/unplug the pot.... this is the one I was thinking of using for the PID... sounds like it is something that would make the pot a whole lot more useful. Thanks for your informative answer...greatly appreciated.

TheMoose

[popper]

Only been at this a couple yeas so no previous attitudes. I have a Lee 4-20 BP, don't cast anything more than 180 gr. I have a PID, it works well and I won't get rid of it - but not a requirement. I also have a ladle that is dirty, crusty and no longer used. I suspect the saeco spout is not large enough for the BIG boolits so you HAVE to pressure cast. I suppose the drain hole & valve could be enlarged a tad to give the same performance as the ladle - that is the real difference between ladle & BP techniques.

[blixen]

I do not use a PID. I have found for 95% of my sessions, I set the 4-20 pot dial at 5.5-6 and get perfect pours with a preheated mold.
banger

I know the dial is relative, but that's about the same setting that worked on mine. I'm expecting my next casting session to go much better. How do you pre-heat your molds?

[w0fms]

A PID is nice because it has a tight dead band (so it's much tighter than a "bang-bang" thermostat, because a thermostat can only react not proactively predict the temperature swings) but also because it always shows the temperature of the pot.. so it's also like having a thermometer monitoring the process.

Certainly not needed, but it takes a variable out of the equation and makes one less thing to think or worry about...

[OuchHot!]

Dale's comment about flow rate on bottom pour pots is very true. I find different molds require different flow and spacing from the pizzle. Some even work best "pressure cast" with the sprue plate right up against the pizzle. When I do BPCR boolits I seldom make more than 125-140 at a time and kinda go into lobotomy mode smelling roses watching bees and just enjoying the ladle action. I am glad that I have several pots....one is ladle only.

[Duckiller]

There are bottom pour people and there are ladle people. You are a ladle person, I am a bottom pour person. Every time I try to use a ladle the lead sets up before I can pour anything. This is just something we have to learn to live with and adapt our casting to this limitation. You might try turning the temp up on your bottom pour pot.

[Bullshop Junior]

I prefer bottom pour.

[btroj]

Bottom pour. Works just fine for me so why change?

[MrWolf]

Haven't cast yet but bought a bottom pour - and a ladle for backup :drinks:

[gwpercle]

I don't think there is a right or wrong way...it's more personal technique and what kind of mould you plan on using. I started out with an open pot and Lyman ladle on the kitchen stove, progressed to electric pot with ladle and then moved up to the bottom pour electric pot. All of my moulds are 1 and 2 cavity , no 4 or 6 cavity and this might make the difference of why I can cast more with the bottom pour but the rejection rate is twice as high as with the ladle. I cast more good boolits with the ladle. So in my case , with 1 and 2 cavity moulds the open pot and ladle work better. If I had a 6 cavity mould I bet things would be different...the bottom pour would probably rule.
I got a bottom pour pot...one day I'm going to bite the "boolit" and get a 6 cavity mould to go with it.
Gary

[357maximum]

I started with a ladle and it worked, bought a 4-20 por bottom sucker and it worked, but not as well "quality wise" for me. Bought some Rowell ladles and switched back........ never happier................ I AM A LADLE MAN.

If you are a bottom sucker I do not hold it against you though......whatever makes YOU happy...use it.

[snuffy]

[QOTE=bangerjim;2644520]I do not use a PID. I have found for 95% of my sessions, I set the 4-20 pot dial at 5.5-6 and get perfect pours with a preheated mold.

Hey............... this is not rocket science! I have at my access many high-end temp controllers and T/C's in the company I own, but I choose NOT to use any of them. If the pot was made for a t/c, then maybe. But having wires and probes running around all over the casting area................not for me. These Rube Goldberg after market fit-ups are indeed a fad.

Just go with your gut/instinct/knowledge and you will get perfect boolits every time!

banger[/QUOTE]

That's quite a statement! Nothing is "perfect" this side of heaven. As far as having wires all over the place, one TC probe wire is all the extra wires there are. As to how to mount the TC, there's many ways, here's mine;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/mattswedding/websize/TC%20mount%20001.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/mattswedding/websize/TC%20mount%20002.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/mattswedding/websize/TC%20mount%20003.jpg

[QUTE]At the risk of starting a war, I think that the PID thing is a bit of a fad and being sold as a necessity.....unless your pot has no control whatever, it isn't.[/QUOTE]

Too late now, let the battles begin!:coffeecom Basically, a PID takes the guess work out of temperature control. No denying that. Temperature control is one of the variables in casting boolits. The better your temp control, the better your boolits will be.

The lee pots are a good value, they just have terrible thermostats. They read off of air temp inside the tower, then use a cheap make/break bi-metal switch to control temp. From full to empty, the temp swing can be 100 degrees!

As for the ladle--bottom pour battle, why choose sides? I USE BOTH! For run-of-the-mill handgun boolits, I use the bottom pour feature of my 2 Lee 4-20's, both PID controlled. For big 45-70 and .500 boolits, I use my Lyman ladle in contact/pressure pour mode.

I also have a lee dipper pot that I'm going to convert to PID control. That simply means making another bracket, another TC and another TC plug for my PID cabinet;

97406

Last but not least and the oldest is a saeco 25# melter without any thermostat. One of these days I'll plug it in to see if it still heats up. Then figure out a TC mount for it.

Oh, did I mention you can control your heater for the Lyman lubrisizers?

97407

Precise heat control is dead certain, no more runny lube or it getting too stiff. But then there's this type of control;

97408

It's what I use all of the time, because precise control of lube is not necessary.

[jmort]

For someone who loves to spray PC and eschews lubes, Bangerjim is missing the boat on the PID. Very simple deal. Does not require a compressor, regulator, hoses, jigs, actually quite simple to use. Try it, you'll like it.

[a.squibload]

Ladle was good enough for the caveman & it's good enough for me!

Jmortimer makes a good point, electric is easier to use, & PID controller
is way better than points. I mainly use propane 'cause it's what I use for smelting
& I'm too cheap to buy/modify an electric pot!
Besides, I have an old prejudice against bottom-pour. A friend's pot stuck one time
and the small stream of hot lead wouldn't stop 'til the pot was empty.

[jmort]

There is always the most simple solution, smelt/cast from pot using wood or even more advanced, propane.

[a.squibload]

Speaking of ladles, my big one is a mushroom can on the end of a rebar,
might be time to make a better one.

[dikman]

Maybe it just needs a new can? :lol:.

The bottom pour is just so nice to use and I can churn out roundballs much faster than using a ladle (and they seem to be more consistent in quality). But I seriously doubt that I will ever cast enough of them to cover the cost of the pot!