1911, Polishing the bolt face for reliability in feeding

[Animal]

Hey folks,

I've pretty much settled on a RIA 1911 .45 Government model. I've put close to 1000 rounds through it, 100 of them being Armscore Ball ammo. It gets a healthy diet of COWW from a Lee 452-228-1R. I've found this boolit to be extremely accurate (for me) and probably 90% reliable with Wilson Combat #608 mags.
Her clean-up involves a light copper brush through the barrel, Ballistol and Miltech 1 on the lube points.

I set out see if I could make it through 200 consecutive rounds without barrel leading, failures etc... I had 3 failure to feed by the time I reached 194 rounds. I thought these were pretty good reliablity odds, but figured improvement was needed.

I've heard of polishing the feedramp and other components, so I carried my weapon, last 6 rounds and the magazine to my local gunsmith. He cycled my ammo and reproduced the problem. It appeared that the head of the case wasn't seating against the bolt face properly when the slide was going into battery.

He felt that my magazine and round nose boolit were both adequate for the design of the weapon and suggested that I allowed him to polish the bolt face. I thought this was odd because it seemed like polishing the feedramp was almost SOP with these guns. However, it made sense because after he showed me the jammed round that didn't quite chamber, it would seem reasonable. He mentioned that that would be a "starting point", if not the "fix".

I left him my gun feeling good about the plan. It seems like all these 1911s need a good polishing at some point.

What are your experienced thoughts on this procedure? I'm wondering if I should call him and ask him to take care of the feedramp to.

[reed1911]

Cost wise, I would. If I'm going to tear down a gun to do X, and the customer may want to do X and Y, it is more time for me to do it in two trips and I would charge for that. So if the cost A, in two trips would be A+A or A*2, likely the cost in one trip will be A*1.5. If we throw some numbers in there (just for the math not really the price). Call it 100.00 for the feed ramp and 100.00 for the bolt face in two trips, thus 200.00, likely it would be 150.00 if he does them both at the same time. Make sense?

[frkelly74]

I also have a RIA 1911 and will watch this thread to see what the outcome is.

Another thing that I have seen with my pistol is the rounds jumping out ahead of the extractor and then not going into battery because the extractor won't snap over the rim of the chambered round. Do you notice this?

[Love Life]

I had to do it for a Kimber Custom Royal. This pistol would rarely make it through a whole magazine regardless of bullet profile. The black finish on the bolt face was ROUGH!!! After I polished th bolt face it fed and ran like a friggin' sewing machine. I later sold it to buy a Colt 1911. The Colt wasn;t even on par with the Kimber for fit and finish, but it was 100% reliable (and still is) with anything fed into it. However, my Colt 1911 is another story altogether...

[ffries61]

Check extractor clearance and tension, can cause FTF, I'm working on this issue on my Sig.

Fred

[tomme boy]

1911's are not designed to close the slide on a round in the chamber. It is supposed to feed from the chamber. It is a good way to mess up the extractor. OP, I would check the extractor for the right amount of tension and profile.

[Animal]

I also have a RIA 1911 and will watch this thread to see what the outcome is.

Another thing that I have seen with my pistol is the rounds jumping out ahead of the extractor and then not going into battery because the extractor won't snap over the rim of the chambered round. Do you notice this?

I can't say that I have. But I will keep an eye out for it.

[Animal]

1911's are not designed to close the slide on a round in the chamber. It is supposed to feed from the chamber. It is a good way to mess up the extractor. OP, I would check the extractor for the right amount of tension and profile.

Yes, I have noticed that the slide doesn't like to go into battery when the round is already in the chamber. This was not the issue though. I'm having a tough time visualizing what it looked like, so that makes it difficult to explain.

[MtGun44]

Polish and bevel, if it is not already - most nowdays are, the bottom inner corner
of the extractor portion just behind the hook. Polishing a rough breech face is a
good idea, too.

And I know it is a typo - but others may be confused - tomme-boy meant "feed from the MAGAZINE"

Bill

[tomme boy]

Yes, yes, yes. Feed from the magazine. My mind runs a lot faster than my fingers do. The extractors are one of the main reason for failure to feed in a 1911. But once tuned right, they run great.

The test I have been doing for the extractor is to load one round in the magazine, then eject the mag and fire the round. Do this at least 15 times. The case should be thrown from 3-5 o-clock. If it does not make it out of the gun, you need to adjust the tension. Usually tighter. The reason for this test is because the magazine that is still in the gun will support the round as it is being drawn from the chamber. If the mag is not there, the shell will drop down into the gun and jam.

[22cf45]

The symptom you mention is a classic description of a problem with the extractors. Those who have suggested polishing and beveling the bottom of the extractor notch are right on the money.
Phil

[Animal]

Tomme boy...

I'll take you up on your test once I get my gun back. Just to make sure I'm following:

1. Insert loaded magazine
2. Chamber the first round
3. Remove the magazine
4. Fire chambered round
5. Notice the shell tossed between 3-5 O'clock. If shell does not eject, adjustment is needed
6. Do this 15 times

[Animal]

The symptom you mention is a classic description of a problem with the extractors. Those who have suggested polishing and beveling the bottom of the extractor notch are right on the money.
Phil

Is it common practice to include this service when a gunsmith "polishes the bolt face"?

[BD]

Most of the "new pistol glitches" common to the 1911 can be addressed with a little oil and 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper in about 15 minutes. A fine file is very rarely required, and a dremel tool has no place on the bench for this work. Keep in mind that the issue is often caused by the rotary action of the various mills involved, and when you are smoothing things up a bit, you should be only working in the direction of travel. I call this work "fluff and buff". For me it includes the breech face, feed ramp, frame rails, trigger tracks, hammer sides and very occasionally the corners of the barrel lugs. A small section very fine square stone is helpful as well. Brownells sells one they call a "trigger track stone" which is perfect.
2,000 rounds of FMJ will accomplish the same things in most cases.
BD

[seagiant]

Hi,
Try this! http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-58497.html

[tomme boy]

Animal, yes. Do you know how to take out the firing pin? All you need is a small punch. Take the slide off the frame. Look where the hammer hits the firing pin. Now take the punch and slide it into the pin hole just a little bit and try to slide the plate down. You want to slide out the firing pin stop. There is a spring on the firing pin, do not lose that. Now slide out the extractor. It should have a slight bend in it. Now is the time to polish the front end of the extractor. Here is a picture of the polishing needed to be done. I only do the inside of the hook and the bottom angle.

[Animal]

Very cool. No, I have not taken the firearm apart further than the basic field strip for a good cleaning. I need to learn because I'm at that 1000 round mark. The info you posted will be helpful. I called my gunsmith this morning to see if he could tell me the status. I also asked him what the service would include (working on the extractor and so fourth). He said very confidently "you brought it in for a feeding issue. I am certain that you won't have those issues anymore." I'm not sure if he was being an ******* or giving me confidence. He didn't seem interested in sharing details with me. He might have been swamped with customers. Hell, I've been in that situation with the work I do. Time will tell.

[Animal]

Hi,
Try this! http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-58497.html

Great read!

[mikeym1a]

Huh. You learn something new every day. I'm in the custom of dropping a round in the chamber, releasing the slide, and then seating a full mag. But, this is an auto-ordnance 1911A1. After thirty years, I have learned my error. gee. golly, gosh. I don't know what to say..........

[Bored1]

Wish I would have asked here before sending my gun back to rock island! But, may need this yet. Taking the compact out to the range tomorrow to see what happens!

[frkelly74]

Indeed this is a most helpful thread. I have looked at my breech face and found it to be rough and the feed ramp as well. I have learned how to get the extractor out of my slide and also how to get it put back together. And I have learned that I might need a few new magazines to boot. from this and the peripheral readings suggested. Thank you to animal for asking and to all who had answers. Keep em coming.

[frkelly74]

Indeed this is a most helpful thread. I have looked at my breech face and found it to be rough and the feed ramp as well. I have learned how to get the extractor out of my slide and also how to get it put back together. And I have learned that I might need a few new magazines to boot. from this and the peripheral readings suggested. Thank you to animal for asking and to all who had answers. Keep em coming.


A side question if I may. Can the extractor have a bevel ground on it so as to permit the extractor to snap over the rim of a round already in the chamber? Or is this not a good idea?

[tomme boy]

I wouldn't. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This was one reason there are 1911's that have an external extractor. I think if you just do a good polish on the face of the slide and bottom angle and grove of the extractor you will be fine.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I've built a few 1911's from scratch and they are just complicated enough to be interesting. JMB was a keep it simple type of guy and the 1911 is a work of genius! Probably why it has been copied for 100+ years.

From my experience,in spec parts are the first hurdle and they are not cheap. When you have a problem,half the problem is finding the RIGHT REASON for the problem as it can be caused by different things! This is probably the reason that talented men can still make a living building and working on these pistols.

Before I pulled out the tools and started removing metal,I would try to get a little educated on this system and invest in some good books and DVD's showing the actual work. I see A LOT of people that think education is a waste of money and just jump right in with the "fix" and make things worse! We live in an information age now and there is no reason not to take advantage of it!

[David2011]

Huh. You learn something new every day. I'm in the custom of dropping a round in the chamber, releasing the slide, and then seating a full mag. But, this is an auto-ordnance 1911A1. After thirty years, I have learned my error. gee. golly, gosh. I don't know what to say..........

A proprly fitted extractor SHOULD tolerate a Bubba loading without causing problems but the gun SHOULD always be loaded from the magazine. It will stress the extractor to the point that it may eventually break, although you seem to have gotten away with it so far. I had a barstock extractor break after about 50K rounds even with mag only loading.

Something else I do on 1911s is to chamfer the intersection of the bolt face and firing pin hole. I've seen the top edge of the hole be sufficiently sharp that it would shave brass. That brass mostly goes back in around the firing pin and can hang up the firing pin on a gun that's shot a lot.

David

[MtGun44]

VERY high stress on extractor doing that. It will survive - but not indefinitely. The gun is
intended to feed from the mag, it is a controlled round feed, similar to 98 Mauser. Same issue,
altho few stock mil Mausers will snap over a cartridge dropped into the chamber.

Bill

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well...All of these great tips and info are really just basic,must/should do when you are building a 1911! However most people don't know a lot of the info given in this thread. One of the most mis manufactured parts on the 1911` today is actually the slide! This of course gets sticky when you go to fit a barrel! I've also seen where the angle of the feed ramp in the frame was cut at the wrong angle!

These are things that the new owner will probably never figure out as he never took the time to gather the info and do some basic measurements to see what he had bought. I will pass on that the best two books you can buy to work on your own 1911 is Jerry Kuhnhausen's 1911 books,Vol. I&II. Volumne II will give you a LOT of info on seeing if your parts are in spec to begin with!!!

[gunshot98]

I used this thread on a RIA 9mm 1911 yesterday and now it works flawlessly. This is a good thread. Thanks guys.

[lefty o]

Indeed this is a most helpful thread. I have looked at my breech face and found it to be rough and the feed ramp as well. I have learned how to get the extractor out of my slide and also how to get it put back together. And I have learned that I might need a few new magazines to boot. from this and the peripheral readings suggested. Thank you to animal for asking and to all who had answers. Keep em coming.


A side question if I may. Can the extractor have a bevel ground on it so as to permit the extractor to snap over the rim of a round already in the chamber? Or is this not a good idea?

you should not do it. even if it doesnt break, everytime the extractor snaps over a casehead, you seriously mess up the tensioning , and it needs to be properly tensioned in order to work correctly.

[David2011]

Jumping back in on an old (but good) thread. . .

The post on what to do to the extractor is dead on. A few come with part of the fitting done. Pretty much all of them need to be finished and the tension set. The extractor is very important for both feeding and extraction.

I have to think, without benefit of inspecting it myself, that a rough breech face is working in conjunction with excessive extractor tension to cause a problem. I would test the extractor tension with a trigger pull gauge and extractor tension gauge before removing metal.

I once had a 1911 come in that had so much extractor tension that it wouldn't allow the extractor to slide over the rim and consequently wouldn't feed a case. Reduced the tension and it fed properly.

Other places to check when rounds fail to feed:
Intersection of the barrel ramp and chamber. If the intersection is sharp, as machined, it will dig into the side of the case.
If the gun has been running well for a while and starts failing to go into battery completely there may be a carbon buildup in the forward part of the chamber. This is especially common if shooting lots of light loads.
Recoil spring- they will wear out if shot enough and will not push the slide fast enough to complete the reloading process.

David