Forster is getting calls concerning their Tap-a-cap cap maker

[Texantothecore]

Their phone number is:

815-493-6360

Everyone give them a call asking them to bring this product back on the market.

[aspangler]

Been trying to find one. May give them a call but I have one that I am making from drawing in the 'net. Almost done and so far looks good.

[waksupi]

Pat Marlin is working on one.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I GAVE my Tap-A-Cap away because I grew weary of the homemade caps going off while inserting the paper cap in the metal pop can holder. The fellow I gave it to only had it about 6 months and he put it on FleaBay for the same reasons I gave it to himRobert

[Texantothecore]

I did some research on pyro sites and found out that 36 screened charcoal is used to make gold sparks which would probably increase the efficiency of the charge. They look to be above 801 f but not hot enough to erode the nipple bore.

With the r&d that is being done on this board it could a very different situation this time around.

[Texantothecore]

Waksupi,
The last I heard from Pat he decided to not continue with the project. I'm sure that could change but we will have to see. I sent him some ideas which I hope were useful.

[mooman76]

I GAVE my Tap-A-Cap away because I grew weary of the homemade caps going off while inserting the paper cap in the metal pop can holder. The fellow I gave it to only had it about 6 months and he put it on FleaBay for the same reasons I gave it to himRobert

I am not understanding this. I am not doubting you but I have done close to 1k caps and have never had any go off while inserting the caps or putting the cap on the nipple. I had some go off while punching them out but that's because the punch cut through the cap where the powder was.

[waksupi]

I had plenty caps go off while priming them.

[Battis]

I have one but it's useless and really frustrating. The problem is the red rolled paper caps that you use for ignition -sometimes they work, most times they don't.

[Texantothecore]

I am not understanding this. I am not doubting you but I have done close to 1k caps and have never had any go off while inserting the caps or putting the cap on the nipple. I had some go off while punching them out but that's because the punch cut through the cap where the powder was.

In Pat's thread on his capmaker he mentioned that he cut his roll caps square and then primed the cups and he had a great deal of success with those caps ignitionwise (100% ignition) and they seemed to prime more easily and they stayed in place.

After squaring the caps off he wets his finger, picks up the charge and drops it into the cap case. I assume that he uses a small tool to seat the charge.

Trying to jam too much cap into the capcase may be the real issue. Just a thought.

[Texantothecore]

The caps that seem work well are "Legends of the Wild West" available through Walmart and they are German caps.

I saw a reference a few weeks ago concerning a cap brand which had a warning to keep the capgun away from your face because the caps throw an unusual amount of sparks. I haven't found them yet but am still looking.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Guys
aspangler Contact me about the cap maker you are making.I have some experience with this and could help.
Cap dots going off while inserting them was a problem for me long ago.I don't seem to have that problem anymore.
Maybe it's the brand of caps I can currently get(the german one's). I constructed two easy to build cap cup holders for loading up the cups. They make the loading much more convenient and safe. I will get some pictures on here if anybody wants to see them. Cutting the dots out with a sissors would be very tedious. What is desirable is a paper punch of or close to 5/32". That will make the dots just barely bigger than than the cups. A lot less paper to get in the way too. For me the path to success is in a small amt. of FFFG BP in the cup first and one dot on top of that. A light spray of hairspray over the loaded cup holds it in and provides some waterproofing. I use Rave hairspray.
Going for a lot of blast with many dots in the cup usually dosn't work very well. You get more noise but almost no blast getting through the nipple.I proved this with my bench cap tester. The BP charged cap shoots a spray of orange sparks through the nipple and this is working well for me. The single dot on top of the BP dosn't sound like it has any power at all,pretty wimpy in fact. It is the way to go for using toy pistol caps. Some of the braver soles are making there own priming to do this. Maybe they can chime in too.
n.n.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

Hi Guys
aspangler Contact me about the cap maker you are making.I have some experience with this and could help.
Cap dots going off while inserting them was a problem for me long ago.I don't seem to have that problem anymore.
Maybe it's the brand of caps I can currently get(the german one's). I constructed two easy to build cap cup holders for loading up the cups. They make the loading much more convenient and safe. I will get some pictures on here if anybody wants to see them. Cutting the dots out with a sissors would be very tedious. What is desirable is a paper punch of or close to 5/32". That will make the dots just barely bigger than than the cups. A lot less paper to get in the way too. For me the path to success is in a small amt. of FFFG BP in the cup first and one dot on top of that. A light spray of hairspray over the loaded cup holds it in and provides some waterproofing. I use Rave hairspray.
Going for a lot of blast with many dots in the cup usually dosn't work very well. You get more noise but almost no blast getting through the nipple.I proved this with my bench cap tester. The BP charged cap shoots a spray of orange sparks through the nipple and this is working well for me. The single dot on top of the BP dosn't sound like it has any power at all,pretty wimpy in fact. It is the way to go for using toy pistol caps. Some of the braver soles are making there own priming to do this. Maybe they can chime in too.
n.n.schmidt

N.H.,
What type of measure do you use to provide consistancy of the black powder charge?
Do you press the roll cap hard or softly to seat it over the FFFg?
Have you done any tests to determine the minimum charge required to provide enough spark to set the main charge off consistantly?
Have you ever had the hammer move backwards using this method (too powerful a charge in a pistol)?
What has your ignition (of the main charge) percentage been using this method?

I think we need to keep in mind, as N.H. has pointed out, that a powerful charge does not correlate with successful ignition. Sparks do and the initial ignition charge can be fairly quiet so long as the temperature of the sparks exceed 801 F (the flashpoint of BP) at the face of the main charge.
Much as I would like to be able to set off the main charge with hot gases, it appears to me that the distance to be traveled by those hot gases makes it unlikely to ignite the main charge in a rifle (doubling the distance traveled reduces the energy to the cube root of the previous distance). Sparks need to be used and it shouldn't take much of a charge to light and push them to the face of the main charge.

Thanks N.H. for the info. It looks like you have developed a successful method for using a Tap-a-Cap or like equipment.

[Texantothecore]

For those of you following along, commercial caps are running about 6 cents apiece in my area of the wilderness and my preliminary figures using this method with a Tap-a-Cap would run about 6 caps/cent, a huge drop in cost with the advantage of an unlimited supply.

[ofitg]

N.H.,
I think we need to keep in mind, as N.H. has pointed out, that a powerful charge does not correlate with successful ignition. Sparks do and the initial ignition charge can be fairly quiet so long as the temperature of the sparks exceed 801 F (the flashpoint of BP) at the face of the main charge.
Much as I would like to be able to set off the main charge with hot gases, it appears to me that the distance to be traveled by those hot gases makes it unlikely to ignite the main charge in a rifle (doubling the distance traveled reduces the energy to the cube root of the previous distance). Sparks need to be used and it shouldn't take much of a charge to light and push them to the face of the main charge.



An interesting quote from Tenney Davis's book, Chemistry of Powder & Explosives -

Hot particles of solid (glass or heavy metal oxide) thrown out by a primer will set fire to black powder over a considerable distance, but they will fall onto smokeless powder without igniting it. The primers which produce the hottest gas are best suited for use with smokeless powder.

I believe those "hot particles of solid" are the sparks you refer to. A lot of the old primer compounds included antimony sulfide (source of heavy metal oxide?), some even contained ground glass.
Some "Super Bang" toy caps I have here list sand as an ingredient.

[Texantothecore]

An interesting quote from Tenney Davis's book, Chemistry of Powder & Explosives -

Hot particles of solid (glass or heavy metal oxide) thrown out by a primer will set fire to black powder over a considerable distance, but they will fall onto smokeless powder without igniting it. The primers which produce the hottest gas are best suited for use with smokeless powder.

I believe those "hot particles of solid" are the sparks you refer to. A lot of the old primer compounds included antimony sulfide (source of heavy metal oxide?), some even contained ground glass.
Some "Super Bang" toy caps I have here list sand as an ingredient.

It is amazing what you can learn on this board. I would never have thought that ground glass would set off a charge much less sand.

The color of sparking charcoal is gold as used in fireworks and the temperature of those sparks should be about 1800 F, based on their color. I had also considered that the exothermic reaction that charcoal generates would serve to preserve the higher temperature over the distance of flight to the main charge.

[ofitg]

TTTC, I'm not a chemist, so I'm still trying to put the pieces together.... I do believe you are correct about sparks being essential. I suspect that sand is a common ingredient in toy caps.
I don't see why charcoal couldn't contribute to the sparks as well. There are certainly a lot of "hot particles of solid" associated with BP..... we gotta clean em out of the barrel when we're done shooting.

[Texantothecore]

There are certainly a lot of "hot partcles of solid" associated with Bp....

'Zactly. Bp appears to be ideal for this application.

[n.h.schmidt]

I use a fired small rifle primer cup soldered to a copper wire for the measure. Leveled not heaped. The dot is seated just down on the powder,not pressed. No drama about the the cap throwing the hammer back. That part is completely normal.Probably less that normal back pressure. I only started using the BP late last year. I have likely shot 50 or more shots in three rifles total. All 50 fired the rifles and I used pyrodex as much as BP in the rifles. I have never before had this success level.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

N.H.,
Just to close the loop on the great technique you have detailed, are you using soda cans for the cap case?

It ocurred to me that the problem with the caps lighting off during initial paper cap seating or during the seating on the nipple may be due the cap containing an abrasive such as sand or groundglass. It may be that the german caps don't have any.

[n.h.schmidt]

I am indeed using pop cans. Double layer.I will not any longer use a single layer pop can for this. I can get a cap dot to fire when punching it out but, this is not often .My cup holding devise is brass and so is the dot seating tubing.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

This is getting more interesting every time I open it up.

Could we see some pictures?

What caused you to go with a doubled layer of soda can?

[ofitg]

While we're waiting on Forster to resurrect the Tap-O-Cap...... a fellow named "raa-7" on the High Road forum came up with a cool idea.

Punch out some 1/2" discs from thin metal - he says 0.005 copper works well, and I tried it with soft 0.005 aluminum from a disposable pie pan - and then cut four radial slits in the disc, as depicted here -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif.html)

I used my wife's cuticle nippers to cut the four radial slits.

Next, use a metal rod to push this disc into a simple die. I used a 0.157 push rod, and I built a die from a scrap piece of quarter-inch-thick aluminum - I drilled it through with a 13/64 bit, and then beveled the hole on the top side -


http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg.html)

The resulting cap fits fairly well on my Uberti nipples - just to be extra sure, I would probably pinch the cap's skirts for a tighter grip.

[n.h.schmidt]

Texan I will try to get a couple of pictures sometime today. I went to a double layer pop can cup beacuse the single layer self destructs too easily. I beleive the cup helps hold the charge and force it into the nipple. If the cup is too weak you loose at least some of the effect. Last summer I went too far in making very strong cups. I used derimed 22rf cases ,sized down and shortened. These were hell for stout.In fact you could resuse them several times. All good except for one very big problem. The cup acted like a piston and would fly off the nipple and put the hammer to half cock. Even with a nipple with a very tiny hole,no difference. This was a dead end because of that alone. They were also hard to make . The double layer pop can is stout eneough to hold the charge for a while and will not blow the hammer back.Also easy and fast to make.
oftig
What you have showed us is neat. It looks like it could work well. Possibly very tedious but cheap to make. The four slits would be a problem for me.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

The over pressures from a 22lr case seem to be very consistent. Nearly everyone who has tried that seems to have the same experience of the hammer being cocked as well as the cap case being ejected backwards at your face.
I am going to make a guess that a commercial cap case vents overpressures without any problem.

Thanks for your reply. We are looking forward to seeing your photos.

[Texantothecore]

While we're waiting on Forster to resurrect the Tap-O-Cap...... a fellow named "raa-7" on the High Road forum came up with a cool idea.

Punch out some 1/2" discs from thin metal - he says 0.005 copper works well, and I tried it with soft 0.005 aluminum from a disposable pie pan - and then cut four radial slits in the disc, as depicted here -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif.html)

I used my wife's cuticle nippers to cut the four radial slits.

Next, use a metal rod to push this disc into a simple die. I used a 0.157 push rod, and I built a die from a scrap piece of quarter-inch-thick aluminum - I drilled it through with a 13/64 bit, and then beveled the hole on the top side -


http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg.html)

The resulting cap fits fairly well on my Uberti nipples - just to be extra sure, I would probably pinch the cap's skirts for a tighter grip.

That is really a great idea. Thanks for the photo. I had been thinking about a set up like this but in my mind it looked more like a swaging die and was getting a bit complicated to make.

I believe I am going to stop by Lowes for some aluminum and make one tonight.

Thanks again.

[Texantothecore]

Soda can walls are usually .00447 aluminum alloy. The alloy is stiffer than raw aluminum and appears to shatter more easily in this application, so doubled soda can wall is the way to go.

[n.h.schmidt]

9780597807 Pictured here is two pictures of my cap holder. The cup is placed on the end of the tamping rod. Then the cup is slid into the bottom of the holder and rotated to a upright position. The rod removed and the bp dumped in. Then a dot is placed over the top and pushed down on top of the powder. Rotate up and pushed out of the holder you have a loaded cap

[Texantothecore]

Thank you. The pictures tell the story well.

Nice piece of equipment.

[Wayne Smith]

While we're waiting on Forster to resurrect the Tap-O-Cap...... a fellow named "raa-7" on the High Road forum came up with a cool idea.

Punch out some 1/2" discs from thin metal - he says 0.005 copper works well, and I tried it with soft 0.005 aluminum from a disposable pie pan - and then cut four radial slits in the disc, as depicted here -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7disc_zpsa4f50ff3.gif.html)

I used my wife's cuticle nippers to cut the four radial slits.

Next, use a metal rod to push this disc into a simple die. I used a 0.157 push rod, and I built a die from a scrap piece of quarter-inch-thick aluminum - I drilled it through with a 13/64 bit, and then beveled the hole on the top side -


http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/raa7cap004e_zps0d9cae8b.jpg.html)

The resulting cap fits fairly well on my Uberti nipples - just to be extra sure, I would probably pinch the cap's skirts for a tighter grip.


This is a serious question because I know nothing of machining - how hard would it be to make a punch to cut the blank?

[ofitg]

Wayne, I just used a 1/2" leather punch...... I set the "pie pan" aluminum sheet on top of an old leather belt and gave the punch a couple of whacks with a hammer.

[Texantothecore]

One the cheapo punch sets from Harbor Freight should work well. I may try one out tonight.

[Texantothecore]

It appears that a 4.9 mm drill could be useful to produce a #10 cap using the aluminum piece above.

[Texantothecore]

Another piece of information which may be helpful is that many of the old caps were lined with metal foil and apparently it helped seal the cap at ignition. The addition of foil to the cap was widely advertised so I suspect it resulted in more reliable ignition, particularly on worn nipples.

Modern regular foil measures about .0008 and heavy restaurant grade is about .0016.

[Texantothecore]

I picked up a 1/4" aluminum flat and a 13/64 drill. I am going to make up #11 cap maker and see how it works.

After the rain stops. Sheesh

[ofitg]

TTTC, this morning I experimented with a 0.185" hole (used a #13 Wire Gauge bit) - I'm still using the 0.157" pusher rod with soft .005" aluminum. The resulting cap fits nearly perfect on my Uberti revolver nipples, but the aluminum disc was more difficult to push through the die. The center tore out of the first one; I sanded/smoothed the inner surface of the beveled portion and my second cap made it through intact. I wouldn't try this with "beverage can" aluminum.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I am not understanding this. I am not doubting you but I have done close to 1k caps and have never had any go off while inserting the caps or putting the cap on the nipple. I had some go off while punching them out but that's because the punch cut through the cap where the powder was.

I was having detonations while cutting them off of a roll of paper caps and I was having infrequent detonations while placing the cut cap into the cup with a wooden match stick. I finally had enough when a cap went off as I was putting it on a nipple of a CVA .45 cal. once to clean the barrel of oil and moisture before loading a shooting charge. I only have 1 muzzle loader left now, a .50 inline. and I`ve converted this to using 209 primers.Robert

[Texantothecore]

Hardcast,
Do you remember what brand of cap you were using?

[Hardcast416taylor]

Hardcast,
Do you remember what brand of cap you were using? Seeing as all this was at least 10 years back, about the best I can recall was I bought the rolls of paper caps from a K-Mart. I don`t imagine they even carry them now after "tubby" Moore the producer staged his stupid escapades after Columbine at K-Mart.Robert

[Texantothecore]

Robert,
They probably had ground glass or sand in the which made them easier to set off. Hmmm
May take some german caps a part and see what we've got inside those little bubbles.

[mooman76]

I bought some cheap ones years ago and they weren't even round where the powder was. They would go off as I was punching them out. Caused a chain reaction with the ones already punched. I learned from that one and bought better caps.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I like the idea but i was thinking of a different angle , why not try to use large rifle primers

I was looking at it and took a large rifle primer and put it in the cup of my hammer , i had to hold it at the right angle then pull the trigger and when it slammed down on the nipple it fired

I suppose the biggest problem would be that it would more or less mean changing out the hammer , and nipple but it you made a nipple that held large pistol or rifle primer , or another idea would be to make a nipple that cut down 25 acp brass fit over you could cut down a dozen pieces of brass with drilled out flash holes , then have the hammer strike the center by drilling and tapping into the hammer and adding a pointed hex head into the hammer then priming could be fast and use conventional primers they should have plenty of fire to set off 3fg

but this was just me thinking , large pistol and large rifle primers seem like they are easy enough to find again , maybe more so than just the right brand of caps each time

[Freightman]

Just buy a Mag-Spark SG primers are easy enough to find, also keeps the crud off the stock, got tired of looking and got them for my rifles. Save the caps for revolvers

[Texantothecore]

Part of this project is due to the high cost of primers and powder and it will take me out of the overpriced gun and supply market which I feel will remain high-priced for at least 4 to 6 years. The ability to make my own caps is the last piece of the project. I should be able to shoot all day for about 6 dollars.

I also am going to be shooting with 10 children in the same family and it may get as expensive as....say 10 bucks!

All of them love to shoot but the cost of ammo is really restricting their shooting activity. This is the solution. They are my nieces and nephews and this is a gift I am going to be able to give them which will they will really appreciate.

[Texantothecore]

The next piece of this project is to order a '51 Navy pistol in .36 cal and to build a target box which is filled with rubber mulch for lead recovery. I will be ordering 55 lbs of pig lead to complete it. It should get me about 4000 rounds to begin with.

I hope they will enjoy shooting black powder for the rest of their lives.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I can understand that and I definitely appreciate the research yall do , cost is definitely a factor I bought what i though would be near a life time supply of caps 600 for my one caplock december 15 2012 at 4 dollars a tin for cci #11 since then I bought a second caplock , and we have been shooting them more , now next time I see any at a reasonable price I will be buying 1000 maybe more

I have a few pounds of powder , but have been looking at the making black powder sticky also

but for my 4H muzzle loading I will have to just find a stock of caps and keep buying powder , I cast for the kids and cut patches but I don't think rules let them run home made powder or caps

one of the other leaders mistakenly bought 500 #10 caps that has me thinking some #10 nipples would be more cost effective to use them up a nipple is only 3-4 dollars

[Texantothecore]

I can understand that and I hdefinitely appreciate the research yall do , cost is definitely a factor I bought what i though would be near a life time supply of caps 600 for my one caplock december 15 2012 at 4 dollars a tin for cci #11 since then I bought a second caplock , and we have been shooting them more , now next time I see any at a reasonable price I will be buying 1000 maybe more

I have a few pounds of powder , but have been looking at the making black powder sticky also

but for my 4H muzzle loading I will have to just find a stock of caps and keep buying powder , I cast for the kids and cut patches but I don't think rules let them run home made powder or caps

one of the other leaders mistakenly bought 500 #10 caps that has me thinking some #10 nipples would be more cost effective to use them up a nipple is only 3-4 dollars

After you get through with sticky thread read this extremely well focused one:


Http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185261-DIY-bp-gurus-will-I-need-to-corn-my-black-powder-for-use-in-cartrides&highlight=diy+bp+gurus


There is a lot of detail which is missing in the sticky thread including part numbers for various tools and such. The contributors were very generous with their knowledge and I am now making my own black powder for about 2.26 a lb.

[Freightman]

Been making my own BP for a year or more. And I am working on a nipple to use a .22 case cut down we shall see.

[Texantothecore]

Freightman,
I just received some information that leads me to believe that an empty .22lr may not be possible to use safely in a pistol. Even when the top of the case is drilled it does not operate as caps are designed to work. Be very careful as there is no venting down the side of the cap. I am going to ask the sender to post his pictures of fired factory caps and then we can comment on them. It may be of help to you.

[Texantothecore]

Green,
You have a PM.

[ofitg]

Freightman,
I just received some information that leads me to believe that an empty .22lr may not be possible to use safely in a pistol. Even when the top of the case is drilled it does not operate as caps are designed to work. Be very careful as there is no venting down the side of the cap. I am going to ask the sender to post his pictures of fired factory caps and then we can comment on them. It may be of help to you.


TTTC, here's a shot of factory caps fired in a Pietta "Colt Navy" revolver - it's quite common for the cap skirts to split and blossom outward, but it doesn't seem to affect the ignition of the main charge -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg.html)


The photo also illustrates how the slot in the Colt's hammer face allows the rear surface of the cap to bulge and sometimes rupture (again, no apparent affect on ignition of the main charge). The slot in the hammer face is designed to engage short pins on the rear of the cylinder, located between the nipples - this was a "somewhat" safe way to leave the hammer down on a fully-loaded cylinder.

[Texantothecore]

Thanks for the great pictures. The caps are much more damaged than I would have thought but they seem to be operating as designed.

So I am not going to worry about busted caps.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have been tinkering away in the basement for a while. I have made my own version of the Tap -O-Cap for reloading presses.They were called the Auto-Cap. Getting the sawtooth edge on the punch was a struggle but eventually worked out. I have been punching out double layered cap cups for a couple of weeks. It's easy and fast enough for me to consider selling the cups to experimenters. With the practice of a small amt of BP under a toy pistol cap found to work by me and others. Making your own percussion caps is now more rewarding. I may run a add in swapping and selling soon to sell the just the cups. Good luck to all who are working on this.
n.h.schmidt

[ofitg]

Nice work, N.H. Schmidt! If you could find a machinist to make more copies of your homemade Auto-Cap, you shouldn't have any problem finding buyers.

[Texantothecore]

N.H.,
I bumped into a reference the other day to your technique. It was apparently used with artillery and it was extremely consistent method of initating ignition. So apparently it was used very successfully for many years for the big dawgs.

[n.h.schmidt]

I could make the die as it currenty exists. Most wouldn't like the looks or the cost. Most would like the fast production though. I suppose it could be reworked to be better looking and fit more presses.
You guys using the caps made with the pie plate and drill press.Has anyone used these caps to fire a gun yet? I'm always interested in this kind of thing.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

I would think that the utility of your auto cap would outweigh any aesthetic concerns.

[ofitg]

I usually load caps with a homemade primer compound, but I've read about folks using a pinch of BP under a toy cap, so I had to give that a try. First I made a tiny powder measure by "tapping" a 2-56 machine screw into a soft plastic tube..... the plastic tube was cut from the ink cartridge in a ballpoint pen -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/powmeas2_zps39595989.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/powmeas2_zps39595989.jpg.html)

I backed the plastic piece off the screw 10 turns.... that makes the opening about 0.18 inches deep. I scooped up some finely-crushed BP "dust" with this tiny powder measure and dumped it into a Tap-O-Cap hull. The hull was formed from a single layer of soft "disposable pie pan" aluminum.
Next I seated a toy cap center over the BP (the cap was a German-made "Legends of the Wild West" cap). The powder and the cap took up approximately 1/4 of the volume in the Tap-O-Cap hull, so there was still adequate "skirt" length to grab a nipple.

On the first try, this combo ignited the main charge in a repro .41 sidelock derringer. Yes sir, it works fine, and I have every expectation that it would work on the "straight through" flame path in a percussion revolver.

The cap hull was not seriously deformed. The skirts did not spread out much; there are no visible splits or ruptures in the metal.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/BPcapC_zpsca3c0903.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/BPcapC_zpsca3c0903.jpg.html)

[Texantothecore]

I usually load caps with a homemade primer compound, but I've read about folks using a pinch of BP under a toy cap, so I had to give that a try. First I made a tiny powder measure by "tapping" a 2-56 machine screw into a soft plastic tube..... the plastic tube was cut from the ink cartridge in a ballpoint pen -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/powmeas2_zps39595989.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/powmeas2_zps39595989.jpg.html)

I backed the plastic piece off the screw 10 turns.... that makes the opening about 0.18 inches deep. I scooped up some finely-crushed BP "dust" with this tiny powder measure and dumped it into a Tap-O-Cap hull. The hull was formed from a single layer of soft "disposable pie pan" aluminum.
Next I seated a toy cap center over the BP (the cap was a German-made "Legends of the Wild West" cap). The powder and the cap took up approximately 1/4 of the volume in the Tap-O-Cap hull, so there was still adequate "skirt" length to grab a nipple.

On the first try, this combo ignited the main charge in a repro .41 sidelock derringer. Yes sir, it works fine, and I have every expectation that it would work on the "straight through" flame path in a percussion revolver.

The cap hull was not seriously deformed. The skirts did not spread out much; there are no visible splits or ruptures in the metal.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/BPcapC_zpsca3c0903.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/BPcapC_zpsca3c0903.jpg.html)


Great technique, data and pictures! Thanks for the post.

I may keep a small amount of my currently grinding meal for this use. Wouldn't be much, but it would be fast ignition.

Does anyone have a different technique or equipment?

[Mike 56]

ofitg, I made one of your scoops and just got done making a few caps to try. I am going to load a few wax bullets and try them out in my 51 Colt revolver in my backyard.

[n.h.schmidt]

I thought that I would post a couple of pictures of my cap tester. It has allowed me to get a better understanding of exactly what happens when a homemade cap is fired. Aslo the test is there is much difference in nipple types as relates to home cap testing. I can get a great visual of the flame or sparks produced.
n.h.schmidt100207100208

[ofitg]

ofitg, I made one of your scoops and just got done making a few caps to try. I am going to load a few wax bullets and try them out in my 51 Colt revolver in my backyard.

Keep us posted..... I suspect that you might have to load a few grains of BP under the wax bullets.....

These caps loaded with a tiny amount (approximately 0.0007 cubic inches) of BP under a toy cap center seem to generate enough sparks to ignite a main charge in the barrel, but since the cap hulls were not seriously deformed, I'm guessing that they don't produce enough pressure to propel a wax bullet..... ?

[ofitg]

I thought that I would post a couple of pictures of my cap tester. It has allowed me to get a better understanding of exactly what happens when a homemade cap is fired. Aslo the test is there is much difference in nipple types as relates to home cap testing. I can get a great visual of the flame or sparks produced.
n.h.schmidt100207100208

N.H. Schmidt, nice work - again! I wonder if there could be some way to "quantify" the differences you observe between various types of nipples? Different people get different test results, and the nipples could be causing the variations.

Just brain-storming here.... Perhaps a sheet of paper placed a short distance (1/2 inch?) in front of the flash channel, which would be visibly marked by the burning particles?

EDIT - another idea - instead of a sheet of paper, perhaps a plastic surface coated with something "sticky" (petroleum jelly?) which would actually capture the particles?

[n.h.schmidt]

ofitg
Thank you. Measuring results coule be elusive. Pictures of the spray would help. I don't know any way to do that.
If visual results mean anything as far as results in actual shooting,I have a clear winner. The Mountian State Spitfire nipple out performs all tested so far. This is using the BP and single german cap method. A nice shower of sparks several inches out from the tester. The worst tested so far( and this is a surprise) is the Ampco bronze nipple. Barely any sparks made it out the bottom of the nipple. The Ampco also has the smallest hole drilled in it.
I have tried some others with rather large holes in them and the spark output isn't so good but they still seem to work.
When I can finally get out to shoot ,I will report on a change to the BP and cap formula. Almost as easy and just as safe.
n.h.schmidt

[Mike 56]

I live in town i shoot wax bullets around the house. They are made for 44 cal cap and ball revolvers. I lube the barrel with pam cooking spray and i put six grains of ffg behind them.

[Mike 56]

Years a go i was given a few bricks of cci #10 caps and i bought a spitfire nipple for my CVA 50 cal cap lock rifle that took #10 cci caps i still have it. The plastic Big Bang caps as well as the as well as the paper caps worked well with it and they did not though a very big spark. I wonder if they make them for revolvers? After using all those cci #10 caps i found i do not like caps that fit to tight.

[Texantothecore]

Thanks for the heads up on the Ampco and Mountain States Spitfire nipples. I was seriously considering Ampcos but hung back when I found out about the small hole. You saved me 35 bucks. Thanks.

[Texantothecore]

Heads up. I'm going to be testing homemade caps this week and will write up a full report.

[ofitg]

TTTC, how did it go?

[Texantothecore]

I haven't done any testing. Too much rain and I need to let the range dry out a bit.
I am milling tonight though and it sounds as if it is going extremely well.

[Texantothecore]

Bttt some great stuff in this thread.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have gotten out a few times since I last posted here. I now recomend a cap dot placed in the cup bottom,BP then a cap dot on top. Use a little less bp since the dot on the cup bottom takes up some space. Not much difference when shooting BP. It does help a lot when using pyrodex. The hang fires go away. Using two dots also help insure at least one of the two dots fire. I have had some failures of the dot itself not exploding. Two improves the odds.
To punch out the bottom of the cup dot a 1/8" paper punch is used.These are easily available in craft stores and scrappbooking shops. Cheap and less paper in the cup.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

Thanks for the update N.H. I will try that and see what happens. So far, the ones I'm using are a good bit more effective than commercial.

[freedom475]

I have "NEVER" gotten my Tap-a-Cap to fire a single round down range...The roll cap idea just doesn't work. The new caps only have a tiny dot of powder and the dot often fits into the nipple opening and will neve fire.. I hang onto my cap maker in hopes to someday actually be able to make a cap that is safe and that will actually "fire" a round off.

I'm sure glad to see you guys still working with them ...someday we may actually get these to work :-P

[ofitg]

Freedom475, here's an old ad from 50 years ago -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/12calML_zpsa9aca963.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/12calML_zpsa9aca963.jpg.html)

Note that the ad refers to a 4.4 milligram charge..... that's how much the paper caps were loaded with 50 years ago.

Nowadays, the German "Legends of the Wild West" caps seem to be the best on the market, and each one contains 0.023 grains of powder.

If I'm doing the math correctly, converting milligrams to grains, the caps we can buy today are only 1/3 as powerful as the ones sold a few decades ago (thanks to the government's safety regulations).
I've been told that is why Forster stopped manufacturing the Tap-O-Cap.

It's still possible to make reliable homemade caps, but it's not so quick and easy anymore.

[Texantothecore]

Freedom475, here's an old ad from 50 years ago -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/12calML_zpsa9aca963.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/12calML_zpsa9aca963.jpg.html)

Note that the ad refers to a 4.4 milligram charge..... that's how much the paper caps were loaded with 50 years ago.

Nowadays, the German "Legends of the Wild West" caps seem to be the best on the market, and each one contains 0.023 grains of powder.

If I'm doing the math correctly, converting milligrams to grains, the caps we can buy today are only 1/3 as powerful as the ones sold a few decades ago (thanks to the government's safety regulations).
I've been told that is why Forster stopped manufacturing the Tap-O-Cap.

It's still possible to make reliable homemade caps, but it's not so quick and easy anymore.

That is the reason. I wonder if slicing the charge off the paper would help. I know that someone is doing that but I do not know whether it makes any difference.

NH's technique using a small amount of black powder seems to work well. My tests (limited) have resulted in 100% ignition.

His technique is to maximize the spark traveling to the face of the black powder charge, not necessarily maximizing the power of the cap. They are sort of quiet.

Another of our posters uses fines for the sparking charge with good success.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Freedom 475
Well at least you haven't tossed your Tap O Cap away. I have heard of others doing so. There is a ready market for them if you want to sell. I have one and have made my own copy of one to work on a reloading press. If you read this thread and some others you will find we are having results. Some wish to stay with the toy caps and P.B combo and the braver soles are using real primer mixes. If using toy caps try punching the cap dots out off-centered. I do that on the cap dot that goes on top. Using the dots just by themselves will often fail. I have used up to five in the cup.
Too much paper involved and little fire gets to the powder. The BP in the cup has changed that.
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

I was wondering today about an off center punch for the roll cap as it seems to me that it might work a bit more reliably. Just a small part of the cap has to fire for the rest of it to fire up and push the spark to the charge face.

Thanks for the heads up N.H.

[Texantothecore]

When I get into my home I am also going to take a look at slicing the charge off the paper roll with a sharp razor blade and trying some different techniques with the separated charge. Stacking them, maybe lightly crushing them so that the bottom of the cap is filled wall to wall with primer.

[True.grit]

I just started working with my cap maker and it seem that 3 cap dots is the magic #. I have not tried to shoot with yet but plan to try this weekend. I can have gotten as much as 5 dots in the cup and they seem very strong. The 1/8 paper punch works great. The only thing is if you don't get over the middle the cap will go off when cutting.

[n.h.schmidt]

If you are using the 1/8" paper punch you will have to hold them in the cup somehow. I use the 1/8" for the bottom of the cup but a larger dot to go on top. Even then sometimes all will fall out unless I spray it all with hairspray. If you have a cap go off in the punch out,You will need to clean the punch. I use soap and water and toothbrush(I knew I would find a use for that someday). The caps are very corrosive. You must be on your game in cleaning your guns.The rusting can be hard to deal with if your methods are not up to it.
n.h.schmidt

[True.grit]

I just finished 100 caps and I used the hair spray trick. It works well to hold them in the caps. Thanks for the warning about the caps being corrosive. I will be cleaning my hole punch when I finish this post. I am hoping to shoot them tomorrow. I takes a lot of time to make. I hope they work ok.

[Rattus58]

Texan I will try to get a couple of pictures sometime today. I went to a double layer pop can cup beacuse the single layer self destructs too easily. I beleive the cup helps hold the charge and force it into the nipple. If the cup is too weak you loose at least some of the effect. Last summer I went too far in making very strong cups. I used derimed 22rf cases ,sized down and shortened. These were hell for stout.In fact you could resuse them several times. All good except for one very big problem. The cup acted like a piston and would fly off the nipple and put the hammer to half cock. Even with a nipple with a very tiny hole,no difference. This was a dead end because of that alone. They were also hard to make . The double layer pop can is stout eneough to hold the charge for a while and will not blow the hammer back.Also easy and fast to make.
oftig
What you have showed us is neat. It looks like it could work well. Possibly very tedious but cheap to make. The four slits would be a problem for me.
n.h.schmidtCouldn't you just make the hole a little smaller, the material a punched in a circle and the hole formed in to have ridges cut in them to accept the "wrinkle"? It seems that is what a regular cap looks like, other than the top hats I use for the muskets... :grin: No?

[Rattus58]

If you are using the 1/8" paper punch you will have to hold them in the cup somehow. I use the 1/8" for the bottom of the cup but a larger dot to go on top. Even then sometimes all will fall out unless I spray it all with hairspray. If you have a cap go off in the punch out,You will need to clean the punch. I use soap and water and toothbrush(I knew I would find a use for that someday). The caps are very corrosive. You must be on your game in cleaning your guns.The rusting can be hard to deal with if your methods are not up to it.
n.h.schmidtDoesn't hot water do the trick as it does with the rest of the gun?

[Rattus58]

Thanks for the heads up on the Ampco and Mountain States Spitfire nipples. I was seriously considering Ampcos but hung back when I found out about the small hole. You saved me 35 bucks. Thanks.I learned with my caplocks, that ampco's are a pain in the butt. I used them for 1/4/28 thread musket cap nipples... but never no more. The small hole is one problem, the flat base is another and crud sticks to it... drilling it out (concaveing) helped a little as did drilling out the hole a little bigger. I didn't get blow back and hammer reset but concaving the base of the nipple I'm sure weakens the structure and it would only be a matter of time for gas cutting to do its dirty deed.... Spitfires for the #11 have been great for me... but I prefer one cap for all my guns if possible and musket caps are easier to get for me now than #11's.. that is why I'm interested in this process with tap-0 cap for my pistola's... :grin:

[n.h.schmidt]

Rattus58
Hot water or any other cleaning method will work with corrosive caps. It's not the cleaning that will save us it's the preserving you do afterwards. I first ran into this 30 years ago with the caps made in Itlay. Stout charge ,stout cup and corrosive as heck. You do your best cleaning and still get rust.The best I come up with is to slop a heavy coat of full strength Ballistal in the barrel and parts. Also follow up later with more. Most light oils do not work.I have one exception and that is with using 3in1 oil. It's available everywhere and seems to preserve things nicely. One thing, everything must be dry before using the Ballistol or 3in1.
n.h.schmidt

[Rattus58]

Rattus58
Hot water or any other cleaning method will work with corrosive caps. It's not the cleaning that will save us it's the preserving you do afterwards. I first ran into this 30 years ago with the caps made in Itlay. Stout charge ,stout cup and corrosive as heck. You do your best cleaning and still get rust.The best I come up with is to slop a heavy coat of full strength Ballistal in the barrel and parts. Also follow up later with more. Most light oils do not work.I have one exception and that is with using 3in1 oil. It's available everywhere and seems to preserve things nicely. One thing, everything must be dry before using the Ballistol or 3in1.
n.h.schmidt
I've used 3 in 1 in the past and still do in my separated triggers (timmy and Bold).. but I'm starting to use marvel mystery oil now too... followed with lucas gun oil and so far that is working... but I've not shot a homemade cap yet... so the future still awaits... :grin:

[True.grit]

Tap-a-cap field test

Ok I went and tried my homemade caps and they work great. Out of 25 rounds I had 2 that failed to set off the powder charge. The very first one did not work do to a dirty nipple and I tried to see if 1 cap dot would set off the round. The single cap dot was not successful. The magic number seems to be three cap dots. It is time consuming but I think worth it as long as I can get the paper roll caps. The hairspray as a glue worked relatively well. I think in the future I will try a heavier coat. The next quest is home made Black powder. Thank you to all the Poster's on this site, it was helpful to make my endeavor successful.

[Texantothecore]

Forster still has their instructions for the tap-o-cap on their site and says 2 to three caps so it looks like you are well within the parameters.

I sure wish someone would start producing some caps like I had as a kid. I suspect hearing loss might be a problem as they were very loud.

[Texantothecore]

Rattus58
Hot water or any other cleaning method will work with corrosive caps. It's not the cleaning that will save us it's the preserving you do afterwards. I first ran into this 30 years ago with the caps made in Itlay. Stout charge ,stout cup and corrosive as heck. You do your best cleaning and still get rust.The best I come up with is to slop a heavy coat of full strength Ballistal in the barrel and parts. Also follow up later with more. Most light oils do not work.I have one exception and that is with using 3in1 oil. It's available everywhere and seems to preserve things nicely. One thing, everything must be dry before using the Ballistol or 3in1.
n.h.schmidt


Thanks for the info. I am a believer in heavy oil after every shooting session because of rust damage to a muzzle loader a few years ago rather than a light coat.

I haven't had any problem since I went to heavy oil coating.

[n.h.schmidt]

I shot a BP match on Sunday. I used my two layer pop can cap cups.They were stuffed with one cap dot on the bottom,a small scoop of 3F and a cap dot on top.A light hairspray cote to keep it all in. The begining 15 shots used Goex 3f BP. The last 11 shots I used Pyrodex P. I had one failure to fire on the 17th shot,using pyrodex. Three fast hangfires in the begining of shooting the pyrodex .Keep in mind that the rifle had already 15 shots of BP fired through it before going to the pyrodex.The pyrodex shooting actually got better as after a few shots.I think it was slowly cleaning the breach of BP fowling.
The rifle used was a 40 year old Jukar 45 cal Kentucky. I won the 50yd target and got second on two others. The caps were a success and the best outing I have had with home made caps. I give credit to using the BP in the caps. Just the dots alone never worked this well. Well time to put some more 3in1 oil in the barrel.
n.h.schmidt

[True.grit]

I shot a BP match on Sunday. I used my two layer pop can cap cups.They were stuffed with one cap dot on the bottom,a small scoop of 3F and a cap dot on top.A light hairspray cote to keep it all in. The begining 15 shots used Goex 3f BP. The last 11 shots I used Pyrodex P. I had one failure to fire on the 17th shot,using pyrodex. Three fast hangfires in the begining of shooting the pyrodex .Keep in mind that the rifle had already 15 shots of BP fired through it before going to the pyrodex.The pyrodex shooting actually got better as after a few shots.I think it was slowly cleaning the breach of BP fowling.
The rifle used was a 40 year old Jukar 45 cal Kentucky. I won the 50yd target and got second on two others. The caps were a success and the best outing I have had with home made caps. I give credit to using the BP in the caps. Just the dots alone never worked this well. Well time to put some more 3in1 oil in the barrel.
n.h.schmidt
How much 3f bp? How did you measure? How was the fowling around the nipple? I noticed less fowling with my home made caps than with RWS caps.

[n.h.schmidt]

The scoop was pictured in a previous entry. In this case it was made from a small pistol primer with the anvil removed and the indent flattened out. It was then soldered to a coat hanger wire as a handle. This scoop had to be filed down a little as there was too much powder filling the cup. About a third was filed off. There is more to clean off from fireing than with regular caps. No special problems in doing so.
n.h.schmidt

[True.grit]

Ok, I took a look at your post. That's cool, I plan to give it a try. Thanks for the info

[Rattus58]

Just ordered this from this guy kevin.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=753136