Does ammunition loaded with TiteGroup require a crimp?

[Naphtali]

I load 45 Colt ammunition with two powders, H110 and TiteGroup. My experience with TiteGroup indicates it is extremely forgiving regarding where it is in 45 Colt brass in terms of ignition and consistent accuracy - that is, squib loads that leave nearly the entire space for propellant empty will shoot as reliably, consistently, and accurately regardless whether revolver was in muzzle-down or muzzle-up position before being fired.

I am less certain, but still pretty doggone close to it, that TiteGroup will achieve this consistency when bullet is retained in its case by a firm roll crimp or a taper crimp.

What happens, less in terms of consistency than in revolver safety, were case mouth to have no crimp and TiteGroup to be fired from a bullet seated with finger pressure? Considering the lack of recoil in squib loads or, for that matter, loads using moderate TiteGroup charges, are their reasons of which I am not aware why TiteGroup need always use handloads having some sort of crimp?

[leftiye]

Uncrimped - If it generates enough recoil to pull the boolit when fired, you'll have problems. At the very least bad fluctuations in pressure. I believe the only time the crimp is unbeneficial is in single shot weapons. I'd use a light crimp, and size enough for a light grip anyway. I'm leery of just a crimp.

[13Echo]

I always crimp loads for revolvers to prevent bullets moving forward under recoil and locking the cylinder. The degree of crimp can vary depending on the load and the cartridge.

Jerry Liles

[bobthenailer]

I load TG in all my straight walled pistol cartradges which are 38/357 , 44mg and 454 casull, these loads are between 800 and 1,100 fps, i use a light roll crimp or a light taper crimp.on all
but it also depends on how much the case is sized to and what diameter the expander plug is , as this will also affect bullet pull which acts something like a crimp.

[Garyshome]

I always crimp if just to remove the case flare.

[I'll Make Mine]

I agree; crimp is mandatory for a revolver with more recoil than .38 wadcutter target loads. A combination of crimp and case tension, possibly with an under-bullet cannelure, is also required for tube magazines and for pistol magazines, for the opposite reason -- rather than to keep bullets from pulling out of the case, to keep them from pushing in (which can cause a hazardous pressure increase).

[Naphtali]

Stepping to one side, how do percussion cap lock revolvers get away with uneventful shooting of bullets not being crimped? I looked in an older Dixie catalog to find that original Civil War-era 1860 Colt and 1858/63 Remington 230-grain bullets were loaded with up to 30 grains of black powder in government issued cartridges. This sounds like a significantly heavier load than my squib 45 Colt loads in revolvers having significantly inferior fit, finish, and metallurgy.

[Scharfschuetze]

Naphtaili,

When loading BP Colt style revolvers with a ball in 44 calibre, I've always shaved a ring of lead from a .451" ball when seating it with the loading lever. This makes for a "very" tight friction fit. I've also seen others loading the 36 cal revolvers in the same manner. I guess if you used an under size ball, you'd run the risk of what you ask, but properly loaded, the balls stay seated through recoil. I've never loaded the pointed projectiles in a cap and ball revolver so I can't comment on that aspect.

13Echo,

I use Tight Group in my 45 Colt and 45/70s with a slight to medium crimp on the boolit. I get great accuracy and consistency that way so I've never bothered to try it without a crimp in my Marlin 1895 or SAA replica revolver. By crimping moderately, I don't risk a seized cylinder from a boolit that slips out from recoil or one that is pushed deeply into a case while in a tube magazine due to a case that has lost its integrity due to an incipient longitudinal crack.

I've found that TG is almost as consistent as black powder as to standard deviation and extreme spread when used in voluminous cases and it is now my go to powder when duplicating BP velocities in the older calibres. As noted in a previous post, it seems to be virtually position insensitive.

[ShooterAZ]

A very light roll crimp is what I do with revolver boolits...for 45ACP I taper crimp.

[Naphtali]

AHA! Apples and watermelon.


Naphtaili,

When loading BP Colt style revolvers with a ball in 44 calibre, I've always shaved a ring of lead from a .451" ball when seating it with the loading lever. This makes for a "very" tight friction fit. I've also seen others loading the 36 cal revolvers in the same manner. I guess if you used an under size ball, you'd run the risk of what you ask, but properly loaded, the balls stay seated through recoil. I've never loaded the pointed projectiles in a cap and ball revolver so I can't comment on that aspect.

13Echo,

I use Tight Group in my 45 Colt and 45/70s with a slight to medium crimp on the boolit. I get great accuracy and consistency that way so I've never bothered to try it without a crimp in my Marlin 1895 or SAA replica revolver. By crimping moderately, I don't risk a seized cylinder from a boolit that slips out from recoil or one that is pushed deeply into a case while in a tube magazine due to a case that has lost its integrity due to an incipient longitudinal crack.

I've found that TG is almost as consistent as black powder as to standard deviation and extreme spread when used in voluminous cases and it is now my go to powder when duplicating BP velocities in the older calibres. As noted in a previous post, it seems to be virtually position insensitive.

[.22-10-45]

The British Adams percussion revolver was introduced with what was termed the "wadded" ball. these were either round ball or conical with a short sharp pointed tang extending from base. In use, a lubricated felt wad was pushed onto base & tang bent over to hold in place. These were faster to reload due to being pushed into cyl. mouths by thumb pressure only..the wad doing the holding. The cavalry soon found themselves with an unloaded weapon & a holster full of powder & balls due to jarring of horse! The later Adams and other British revolvers all had loading levers added.

[Scharfschuetze]

"AHA! Apples and watermelon."

Naphtali,

Do you have a problem with answering the two questions in the thread with one post? Did you bother to read the whole thread? Too bad you didn't have anything constructive to add.

22-10-45,

Interesting tidbit on the Adams revolver.

[Naphtali]

Scharf:

You misunderstood me. I had been attempting to conflate two completely different loading methods - trying to make apples and watermelon the same. "AHA!" is my short form of saying. Oh boy, I get what you mean. I've been viewing the issue from a skewed perspective.

If I've clarified my error, perhaps, "AHA!" is a response you might make with a smile?

[leftiye]

Stepping to one side, how do percussion cap lock revolvers get away with uneventful shooting of bullets not being crimped? I looked in an older Dixie catalog to find that original Civil War-era 1860 Colt and 1858/63 Remington 230-grain bullets were loaded with up to 30 grains of black powder in government issued cartridges. This sounds like a significantly heavier load than my squib 45 Colt loads in revolvers having significantly inferior fit, finish, and metallurgy.

They're smashed into chamber mouths about .010" smaller than the ball is. Apparently this has held against recoil for almost 200 years now. The cylinder steel springs back upon the lead which has no spring, I guess. You'd better not find a way to crimp the chambers down, your gun would only last 6 shots before you needed a new cylinder.

[I'll Make Mine]

Adding to Sharfschuetzer's reply, it's very uncommon to leave one or more chambers loaded and "top up" a cap and ball revolver, but in some kinds of shooting this can happen with cartridge revolvers, and it's very common with tube magazine rifles -- and a round that sits in a chamber or magazine through, not up to five, but perhaps twenty or more shots is subjected to a lot more "kinetic bullet puller" action than a very tight ball in a C&B chamber through, at most, five prior shots...

And I've read that this can be an issue with come C&B revolvers -- notably the LeMat, with nine .36 chambers around a 20 ga. central barrel; the center barrel requires very tight wads to keep the load together, and if the shot barrel is fired before emptying the outer chambers, that recoil plus that of the others can loosen the last ball enough to lock up the cylinder.

[Scharfschuetze]

Naphtali,

Yikes! My apologies. I completely misunderstood your post. I guess Homer Simpson would say "Dohhh" at this point!

[bangerjim]

Since I have so much of it, I use TG for just about everything in pistols!

I use a very VERY light crimp on 38, 40, and 45's with excellent success. Very light because I use PC on everything and a tight crimp could scrape it off while exiting the case. I have tried ZERO crimp and have not observed any degradation in performance.

banger

[prs]

What I don't understand about the OP is seating boolits with light finger pressure. TG or other, that can't add anything to the consistency of the ballistics. I strive for best retention from boolit to case fit and add just enough roll crimp to set the case mouth into the canalure. That crimp adds little to nothing to retention during ignition, but rather is a means to prevent the boolit from being bumped backward into the case.

prs

[kd7kmp]

I find that in most all of my reloads if I don't apply even a light crimp shot to shot consistency isn't as good. This goes for light to heavy load and boolits.

Kevin

[gwpercle]

I crimp all my revolver loads if for no other reason than to keep the boolits firmly in place. Recoil will cause them to creep forward , and that can't be good. What harm can crimping do?

Gary