does your lube have enough friction

[runfiverun]

here's a good chance to talk about something that is rarely discussed when it comes to boolit lube.

FRICTION.

now you are just about to click off this thread, thinking dude Run has been up too late again.
but think about how does a lube actually work.
yeah it lubes.
it also seals.
it releases oils from the solids.
how does it release those oils?
and when does the release actually happen? when the wax flows?
think about that for a second [the wax flows] what makes that happen and when does it stop....
the stop point is what we call the relax point and you can actually see it happen in a long barrel with many lubes.
it looks similar to leading when viewed down the barrel under poor lighting.
is that caused by friction or heat loss ooor does the wax need further modification
to remain in a flowing state.

yeah some rambling going on,, but follow the train of thought laid out and let's see what y'all got....

[RickinTN]

:coffeecom

[.22-10-45]

Harvey Donaldson (.219 Donaldson Wasp) wrote of this. His lube formula contained Rosin..lubrication, but with drag. Also claimed this would leave bores shining.

[fryboy]

ummm i shouldnt think before i have morning coffee :razz:

friction in it's barest essence is part of why j-words build up the pressure that they do ( with that pressure comes higher velocities ) sadly when translated to cast lead even tho that lead seems to have more ( this may not be the correct word/term i'm searching for ) lubricity than the guilding metal jacket it's softness/malleability also works against it , consider the copper fouling of a bore for a minute ... a pure copper bullet often fouls a bore more than a guilding metal jacket , the zinc in the guilding metal works much like antimony and/or the tin does in our lead alloy , it's makes it harder , also consider the quenching or heat treating process some of us use - same alloy yet in many cases a quenched casting can cure a leading problem or at the very least allow us to drive that same alloy at a higher velocity/pressure level , the mechanicism could only be the increased friction in my humble opinion by the tempered alloy

eh, i'll have to contemplate this more sometime ( after i've had some morning coffee lolz )

[btroj]

This is making my head hurt. Again. And still.

So we need something in the lube that still maintains a seal and lubrication past the relax point. We also need something in the lube to prevent over lubrication so we keep a consistent level of friction- prevent the purge flyer problems due to inconsistent friction levels.

[leftiye]

Is powder burn/ pressure buildup due mainly to friction or is it because of inertia and mass of boolit? Both I'm sure. If you reduce friction, and pressure drops, add sum powder. It'll go faster too. I kinda think the issue to worry about would be when do you lose your seal?

Would purge flyers still happen if the oil were applied and removed each time you fire? Ie. light enough to scrape off and then replace by the same boolit after it has passed. Is the need for friction, or is it for lubrication? Or is it neither, but for a consistent barrel condition that avoids boolit deformation and leading.

[btroj]

Leftiye, those are exactly some of the questions we have been asking. The consensus, amongst the hats and a few others, is that a constant bore condition is key. We want a very minimal residue left in the bore and prefer that it be something that doesn't change with time or temp. Leaving too much oil in the bore can often lead to a buildup and purge flyers. Too dry and it is like a clean barrel each shot.

[btroj]

Ok Run, I put my thinking cap on while in the shower and have a few questions.

Does the relax point pertain to the lube or the bullet? Both? I think it has far more to do with the bullet relaxing and this alters the lube "pumping" mechanisms.

Is the relax point, and it's affects on lube, part of what is causing cold barrel flyers with a lube like CR?

Is the reason we can alter a lube like Felix with a bit of Vaseline for cold weather use because it alters the way the relax point affects the lube? Would the same work for CR?

I'm thinking that at the relax point the bullet is no longer receiving the pressure from behind that it needs to maintain a solid seal with the bore. At this point the lube is no longer getting the same pressure either. This leaves a smear of lube that gets deposited at this point in the barrel. This smear becomes a barrier to all future bullets until the barrel gets warm enough to make this smear remain soft enough to present less of a problem.

Can we add something other than Vaseline to our lubes to modify the viscosity to get past the relax point? Is this why a very knowledgable lube guy kept talking about cetyl esters?

Was the residue we saw with TnT in rifles a sign of the relax point? The residue only went part way up the barrel. We assumed it was because the oils were blown from the grease due to pressure. What if it was more a case of pressure allowing the grease to break down and we were leaving the soap behind. The residue stopped around the relax point because the pressure dropped off enough to prevent further de-oiling of the grease.

I think an investigation into lube ingredients that keep a better seal past the relax point is needed. What materials have the ability to remain semi-liquid under low pressures? I think cetyl esters need another look. We thought they would be important for initial lubrication on ignition, we never thought about the relax point and farther down the barrel.

Ok guys, have at it. This is a normal discussion amongst guys in hats.

[44man]

Good thought provoking post!
I do not believe in lube being a seal, the boolit is the seal.
Purge fliers? Only if half the lube leaves a boolit at the muzzle exit. Fliers are more often caused by lead too soft so a boolit does not engage the bore straight. Barely stable with the twist is another.
The amount of lube left in the bore is very tiny and no boolit will shed all the lube in the bore. Why I don't like huge, deep grooves, just more lube to get rid of out in the air and a change in boolit balance.
Friction IS needed to retard boolit release from the brass and maintain a consistent bore condition.

[btroj]

44man, if purge flyers are caused by bullets too soft then why do some lines give them at temps over 90 but not at 70 degrees? Bullets all from same batch. I think the lube becomes too soft, loses viscosity and it leaves too much oil and too behind it in the bore.

I will say that revolvers and rifles have hugely different lube demands. The revolver has that pesky cylinder gap that changes everything. A rifle allows for seating a bullet into the lands, pretty tough in a revolver. Notice I didn't say handguns, a single shot or auto loader is more like a rifle than a revolver.

[Eutectic]

Ah yes..... 'friction'

Friction is extremely important; but not all by itself.....

I'm not sure the amount of friction (within reasonable limits) is too important either..

What we want is 'uniform friction' !! A harder target yet we seek is 'uniform friction' across the board of all conditions and influences! TALL ORDER GENTLEMEN!

What we call the 'relax point' is involved and could be important. It does 'move around' in bore location for me which I relate to powder burning rate or maybe better put, the time pressure curve of the particular load being used. It has to be uniform so total bore condition friction dynamics remain so.

I tried some Chevron Delo 400 SAE 30 oil I had no use for. I remember when Chevron came out with Delo 400. It has an additive that disperses
carbon (of which a diesel has plenty!) basically keeping deposits in solution..... We make a lot of carbon shooting boolits! Should we try and purge it? Delo 400 also has ZDDP in it Lamar.... something we kicked around earlier. Well Delo 400 SAE 30 is a 'slick' lube! I found that out! And it did seem to 'gather' (for lack of a better word) carbon up different that other lubes.... But it also blew it out! More that a lube purge if was.... more like blowing your nose! You know how you have to blow your nose more than once usually? Well, that's how the flyers went!!

I almost think our 'actual' lube component needs to be a border-line lube quality vs. a superb one....

Yes, 'uniform friction' is an extremely important part of C.O.R.E. and our quest for a boolit lube for all occasions. To achieve it requires something we haven't tried yet I believe.... Maybe Brad has a point with cetyl esters...

Eutectic

[bhn22]

I believe that the lube does act as a seal, but mostly under full pressure. Bullet lubes also prevent/inhibit lube groove collapse under pressure, lube has a multitude of functions. I always thought if interesting that bullets are typically lubed near the base, rather than at the nose. The fact that this works negates to a point the position that lube only lubricates the bore, providing a sacrificial coating for the bullet to ride on. Contradictions exist however, tumble lube, or flood coating for one, which does seemingly only provides lubrication between the bullet and the bore. Another is the lowly 38 wadcutter, many of these are only lubricated in one single center groove, and when you recover fired specimens, they show little, if any consumption of the lubrication. Obviously velocity come into play at some point, along with pressure. What I'd really like to see is pressure gun lube tests done with compressed air, rather than burning gun powder, I think that by removing the heat issue from the tests, a comparison would give us much better insight into lube performance. Now that I've managed to talk in a complete circle, I think I need to hit the coffee as well.

[wlc]

Ya'll make my head hurt. I love following all these threads. I just wish I understood more, but I am getting an education. Amazing. Carry on.

[geargnasher]

I'll try to outline what I've learned about lube in the last few years.

Boolit lube is a lubricant. It serves as a both a dynamic film barrier between boolit and barrel, and as a boundary lubricant.

Boolit lube is a dynamic micro-stop-leak sealant. The analogy here is oil film on piston rings in an engine. For short durations under pressure, even 5-weight engine oil provides a substantial decrease in the very tiny gaps present between boolit and barrel. This seal is delicate, dynamic, and dependent on pressure between boolit and barrel. Lube also acts as a self-lubricating seal. I've learned from using too much polybutene that if the lubricant is too cohesive, it won't "smear" or stretch out through the bore as fast as the boolit is traveling. In that case the film breaks up and leakage or lube deposits can occur. Too much friction or cohesion and the lube tears itself apart, generates heat, etc. It needs to be slippery (consistently so) against the barrel steel under various pressures from engraving to muzzle. A lube that is too "dry" (insufficient oil) or contains wax that doesn't melt quickly enough will cause friction variance and ultimately loss of film lubrication ability. IOW, if the lube can't make a film that keeps up with the boolit travel, the film breaks down and a boundary lubrication condition exists. If the lube doesn't have components that are tolerant of a boundary lubrication condition (dry lubricating solids like graphite, hBN, mica, talc, high melt-point wax, metal soaps, organo-metallic compounds of zinc or moly), and the fluid film mechanism that delivers those boundary lubricants where they're needed isn't working, then metal begins to rub off on metal and we get things like abrasive lead deposits and antimony wash.

Boolit lube is a barrel pre-lube. Unless breech seating or muzzle loading, some degree of boolit lube is blown around the boolit before full engraving and bore obturation (seal) is achieved. This lube mist ahead of the boolit will be "run over" by the passing boolit, and whether or not it is evenly distributed and the physical state it is in (melted, solid blobs, wet coating) affects the way the boolit will respond to the pressure behind it. Blowby can be relied upon to a certain extent to deliver boundary lubricant compounds to the bore ahead of the boolit.

Boolit lube is a friction modifier. As has been said, the lube needs to provide some drag so the powder has something other than boolit inertia alone to work against. Finding ways to formulate lube so that this boolit/bore friction is consistent from one shot to the next is the principle difficulty that we boolit lube "engineers" have been working to overcome. Slip-stop conditions due to lube viscosity variances (or more correctly, film or boundary friction variances) play hoc with barrel time and pressure curves. The viscosity of the fluid film needs to be consistent independent of temperature or pressure, as evidenced by wax-based lubes and "relax point" in the barrel. My theory on the relax point is that as pressure drops off behind the boolit, the boolit base shrinks back a bit and the gaps between boolit and barrel enlarge. In extreme cases where the seal was iffy to begin with (hard, brittle alloy, marginally oversized boolits, and/or fast, peaky powder) the gap can be sufficient to cause gas-cutting. This totally incapacitates the lube and also lays down the eroded lead particles in the bore resulting in muzzle-end leading. The general observation (false) is that the barrel is too long, the lube grooves not big enough, and the boolit is "running out of lube". What's really happening is loss of obturation due to the relax point being reached for the given system of components. In less extreme instances, the lube layer spread by the boolit will thicken significantly as the boolit relaxes and the residual high pressure in the groove causes the groove to dump its payload in the bore. There is a good reason some boolit designers incorporated a "scraper groove" in front of a sharp front band; such a boolit snowplows the bore each shot.

I read an article not long ago which discussed the results of a test done on copper-jacketed bullets that had tradtional, grease-type boolit lube applied to them. The velocity was increased (IIRC) something like ten percent and the SD numbers cut in half. Very interesting stuff.....

Theories I've had and tested: 1). Non-melting lube. This only works if the lube is the consistency of 30-weight oil. I've used JUST two-cycle engine oil on boolits and never had the slightest bit of leading or lube purging, even at over 2400 fps. If it was practical to apply to the boolits, this would be THE solution. Keep that in mind, folks. If the non-melting lube is a grease consistency, problems with cohesion, lack of lube dispersion, loss of film barrier condition all occur and leading, vertical stringing, lube smearing, etc. become big problems. Grease can't handle high speed unless it's a gelled oil like automotive chassis greases which are really a metal soap matrix like a sponge impregnated with oil. Such greases squeeze out oil under pressure and the solids mostly make it out of the barrel. Sodium grease can be an exception, though, as the long-stringy fibers of the matrix can rub off and stick to the bore as the oil is squeezed and burned out of it. 2). Granular lube filler as a stop leak and temperature-pressure-consistent friction modifier. I tried everything from Metamucil to talc to powdered paper towels and the latter worked very well IF one can keep it IN THE GROOVES. If any blowby occurs, the boolit has a hard time running over the fibers without trouble. In rifles with a very snug boolit/throat fit it was no problem, but in revolvers big globs of lube would blow around the boolit and adhere to the bore. When the boolit ran over the lube/fiber blobs lead was torn off and streaked down the bore while the fibers were ironed on. Not good. Paper is one of the most consistent barrel/boolit film lubricants there is, and also makes a very durable, flexible, pressure gasket, but it's difficult to employ in a lube without making a paper jacket. 3). Solid lubricants. This has shown some promise, but most things don't work because it's too difficult to get a consistent layer delivered to the boolit/bore interface. hBN may be the answer, my results with it as an additive to a non-melting grease-type lube have been very positive. 4). Brick grease lubes. These are made with very high concentrations of metal soap, and, in one instance, bentonite clay. Generally this works very well, but sodium soap begins to leave solid residue beyond a certain pressure (20-30K psi). Accuracy problems resulted from lithium brick-grease (and also slight leading issues until 15% wax was added), and the clay brick grease was a leading nightmare. If sodium stearate had a higher heat tolerance it would probably work well with a thin oil as a brick-grease lube, but unfortunately, once the sodium stearate begins to melt at 450F, it leaves a gummy coating in the bore.

Lots of challenges, lots of things tried. Solve one problem, create another. Still working on it. The only things that will work under all circumstances are a liquid oil or a solid, unmeltable lubricant. All we need is a way to apply them to the boolit as it goes down the bore. Ok, then we add wax. Then we have to deal with hot/cold variances, phase change energy, etc. and we're back to square one. This is why we think about this in the shower and wake up thinking about it in the middle of the night: It's a huge puzzle with many pieces.

Gear

[felix]

Excellent, Ian! Well conceived and worded. ... felix

[357maximum]

Ok Run, I put my thinking cap on while in the shower and have a few questions.



Brad......Must have been a very inefficient shower with a thinking cap that big. :lol:

Gear...All i have to say to you is.........attaboy, ya done good. :smile: I hope some day you figure out the magic elixar....then I will stop using what is merely "good-nuff". :mrgreen: The way you put most loob alchemists "random thoughts" into a sentence that most the time makes sense is quite amazing actually. GOOD JOB

[geargnasher]

Some other things I messed with that didn't work. I tried several different approaches using polyethylene and a "synthetic wax" made of long-chain (50+ carbon atom) polyalphaolepins in an effort to make a lube that had consistent friction characteristics whether solid or melted. I made a primitive Timken-style wear tester to test film strength of various lubricants, in various phase states between lead alloy and barrel steel. My inspiration was the solid polymer lubes installed in some types of sealed ball bearings, really a "plastic bearing cage" cast to surround the bearing elements and apply a constant film of lubrication as J-sticks do in open-bearing wells. The problem making it work in a rifle? HEAT. Smokeless powder gets hot when burned in confinement and the various plastic lubes and greases I made using polymers as a gellants caused plastic fouling to condense on the surface of my bores.

Lessons learned.

1) Wax-based lubes tend to be very cold-start and temperature sensitive unless modified with just the right sort of oils/greases to provide consistent friction (or slip) regardless of phase or temperature. Congealed wax residue in the bore must be of the sort that doesn't change the boolit friction much compared to when the barrel is hot and the lube is partially liquid or even vapor. Some wax blends seem to pull this off very well, particularly ester waxes like beeswax. Carnaba, also an ester, is the opposite. Paraffin wax has a surprisingly consistent friction factor in a gun bore whether liquid or solid film, but all of the paraffins have a low film strength and tend to need help from other additives and waxes to function well as a lube/sealant. Conclusion: Wax as a carrier has some drawbacks, but generally can be formulated to work acceptably under a variety of weather conditions. The problem of hot-weather storage and low melt point still exists.

2). Metal-soap brick greases are problematic in a couple of respects. First, the thickener can become an issue in high concentrations as a barrel fouling. Also the thickener, in high concentrations, may not release the oil like we'd like it to by the time enough is added to make grease that will stay on the boolit without wax or other thickeners/carriers. Second, the base oil itself can be difficult to get right. Polyolesters, diesters, and polyglycols are very slippery and exacerbate irregularities in the gun barrel rather than mitigate them, and conventional brightstock or paraffinic oils have low viscosity indices. Low VI numbers translate to different flow rates at different temperatures, so cold-barrel or altogether cold-weather performance will be different than hot-barrel or hot-weather performance of the lube. The lube may prevent leading, but may also print in different places, throw cold-barrel flyers, or make groups large in hot weather as the viscosity falls. Polyalphaolephin oils (like synthetic crankcase oil, gear oil, or two-cycle engine oil) can be an acceptable compromise of VI, "slipperyness", and film strength, but have to be chosen carefully and don't seem to work very well when carried only by a heavy, metal-soap matrix. Final thought on metal soap as a lube oil carrier: The oil may work fine under all conditions, but the metal soap carrier becomes a liability even though it solves the melting and temperature sensitivity issues associated with the waxes.

3). Non-melting grease-like substances. So, if waxes melt in the heat and leave hard residue in the cold, then how about making a grease that will stay in the grooves and not melt, ever? Done it. There are two compounds of which I'm aware that can be formulated into EP greases that won't melt or burn in a gun barrel. Runfiverun knows about one and I know about the other. The one I'm playing with is expensive, hard to get, and has problems. It's about an NLGI #3 lubricating grease, but it has a high tack and very high resistance to slide. At low speed, less than an inch per second, it works fine, but don't try to force it because it will tear apart and leave you without a lube film. I added various waxes to this and made an acceptable lube, but only because the wax melts and makes a liquid portion that will flow at boolit speeds.

4). Solid lubricants. Thermoset paint and paper jackets are the most successful of these because they are thick and flexible and isolate/seal the boolit/barrel interface. They also don't leave much behind to affect bore condition. The "jacket" principle is sound and well-proven. Cogitating on WHY jackets work so well is key to finding semi-solid lubricants that will work well: Temperature insensitive friction characteristics, positive sealing ability, and low residue.

Some other food for thought regarding our high-speed boolit "lubrication" is the speed rating of the film lube itself. ASTM has established guidelines for determining bearing speed and the viscosity of the substance suitable for lubricating it. Sliding surfaces and rolling surfaces differ a bit, but I did some calculations one time and came up with a number for a rifle boolit at 2500 fps that was about twice what the thinnest, NLGI #000 lithium/ester grease was rated to handle. That grease had a very thin oil, about like automatic transmission fluid, and just enough thickener to make it like engine oil. So, as a rifle boolit gets up to speed in the barrel, the lube needs to be very, very thin. If the lube uses a wax for a carrier, it must melt and thin-out very quickly through powder heat, friction heat, pressure heat etc. and allow at least the "ice skate" effect of film lubrication. If it doesn't melt easily enough or thin enough, too much friction will tear the lube film apart the the boolit will skate directly on the bore. At best this means big groups, at worst, leading and keyholing.

Just like high-speed babbit bearing lubrication, a boolit seems to like a pressurized, low-viscosity oil to accompany it through a barrel. How to put it where it needs to be, and keep it there, is the rub. A heavy sodium grease has been the answer for me and a few others with the TnT lubes, but only at pistol velocities and pressures. There are also some accuracy issues with it, but I think that's mainly from using the "wrong" oil. If we could keep the sodium stearate from burning and maybe switch to a blended-molecule oil we'd have it made for all purposes.

Anybody else know a good way to keep oil on a boolit without wax or anything else that leaves a residue? Hydrogenated oils like soy wax and castor wax, together with extreme-pressure ester compounds like GY-HTO may provide some answer if we can keep them from melting in hot weather. These items are homogenous and function as both lubricants and carriers regardless of phase.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Brad......Must have been a very inefficient shower with a thinking cap that big. :lol:

Gear...All i have to say to you is.........attaboy, ya done good. :smile: I hope some day you figure out the magic elixar....then I will stop using what is merely "good-nuff". :mrgreen: The way you put most loob alchemists "random thoughts" into a sentence that most the time makes sense is quite amazing actually. GOOD JOB

It may not accomplish a successful formula, but it keeps us entertained anyway! I'm glad R5R brought up the friction thing again, it's rather key and we hadn't discussed it directly too much. Sorry I went off on a comprehensive lube tangent, it's just that I can't think about lube friction as only one part, it's so involved with every factor of the whole.

Gear

[btroj]

Agree entirely on the relax point being bullet and pressure related. Alloy makes a huge difference too. I agree that this is the cause of the "running out of lube " leading.

Looking at MML and what Eutectic mentioning regarding needing a borderline lubricating oil could it be that we have been using too good an oil? Is a full syn 2 stroke or the ester 100 AC oil too good? Are we better off with something like a generic lithium grease and the marginally oils they use?

I still think something like a cetyl ester or even some soy wax has a place. These melt at low temps/pressures and could well help get us past the relax point. I still think the relax point is a big part of the cold weather issue with some lubes, like CR. Once the barrel warms the lube remains soft enough to flow and get out of the barrel but the first few shots leave a smear of stiff wax in the bore at the point were the pressure drops.

Gear, as usual, summed it all up pretty well. Ok, he left off wrapping grooves in string or using o-rings......

[runfiverun]

the relax point is kinda funny.

where the lube smears show up is not where the powder volume ceases to be enough to keep the boolit under pressure.
with a harder lube [carnuba red] it takes the lube a bit to drop off remember carnuba red is a mix of 7 different waxes so there is a lot going on there.
my moly complex lube is a mix of 3 waxes but also has calcium stearate and lithium stearate soaps.
it also has the metal component [moly] which I added as a heat carrier for the cold [maybe the wrong thinking at the time]
it's final component which really woke the lube up was the addition of the poe [atf] oil.

now the simple lube I come up with will occasionally need the addition of some calcium soap [alox] to help it past the relax point when used in normal speed [1600-1900 fps] applications in a rifle barrel.

what I think it really boils down to is modification of the waxes used.
the oils and [metal] fillers we use are doing nothing more than propping up the wax as it transits through the changes it makes in it's journey.

we discussed thixotropic lubes many, many times and I firmly believe we are now looking for something that is controllably thixotrpic, but [ain't there always one] control of the oils release without leaving the wax behind is about as close to the grail as we can get.
it's the waxes [soaps in some cases] left behind that have to be causing the c.o.r.e. condition that is not desirable.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=btroj;2642615]
Looking at MML and what Eutectic mentioning regarding needing a borderline lubricating oil could it be that we have been using too good an oil? Is a full syn 2 stroke or the ester 100 AC oil too good? Are we better off with something like a generic lithium grease and the marginally oils they use?

QUOTE]


It is the route I took, but it like skinning cats has many ways to get there I am sure. I made my wax base "weak" and "porous" and the oil/soap complex barely adequate....it worked for both MML and Satan's Lube, but I do not need a melt temp like some do.

[bruce381]

What you need is a liquid but something that will stay in a grease grove figure that one out.
So then you are stuck with a solid that stay in grease grove and handle loading that will immediately upon firing flow like a liquid.
How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

[btroj]

Ok Run, if I am following you then the relax point, as you call it, if a point up to a few inches from the point at which the bullet loses seal with the bore. I also gather you are saying how far depends on the formula of the lube and the temp of the barrel.

I suppose we are using the term relax point differently. I think of it as the point where the bullet relaxes in the bore, the smear comes after that point.

Two different ways of looking at the same thing.

I kind of like Mike's idea of a porous, weak wax base and a barely capable oil. Is this almost what Felix lube is? We know that castor oil is a great film lube but the amount present is minimal.

I think some ATF in a lube is a good thing. It gives some lubrication but also tends to leave little of itself behind. It also doesn't over lubricate like I think the ester 100 did.

I have some ideas I want to try but need some better weather to get out and shoot.

I got a PM from a member here who said we are making his head hurt. Worse yet he understood much of what Gear said. I warned him to stay away.

[runfiverun]

nope we are using it the same, just pointing out that the place you see the lube in the barrel and the actual relax point are two different places.

I don't think felix lube works quite that way, I believe it's more like a controlled release of a captured oil and it still relies on the wax flowing.

to fit the bill something like a soy wax, poe oil mix thickened with a dry lube would fill the bill.
gypsum is something I have been looking at for quite a while as a filler [a lifetime supply would cost about 10 bucks]
maybe non drying paste would be better term for something like that.

[btroj]

I may look at some methyl cellulose powder. I can get some that is very, very fine. Dissolves in water but won't dissolve in oils. Should work as a thickener. Chemically inert.

[geargnasher]

What Felix lube and many of the better lubes do is provide a pretty darn consistent friction characteristic between boolit and barrel under all shooting conditions and phases of the lube. Castor oil doesn't burn in the barrel, so is present always. Too much, though, and accuracy suffers. The castor provides consistent film lube, and the other ingredients don't muck it up too much while holding it and carrying it along. Mineral oils (liquid paraffin) have been show over and over to have negligible effect on bore condition, so are relatively inactive softening ingredients. Lanolin is an EP wax that adds some grab, but gets swept cleanly away during the firing event and doesn't settle out in the bore to cause fluctuations of C.O.R.E. The beeswax is fairly benign, too, when tempered with the other ingredients. Also, here's a little secret: Guess what happens when you put 10 measured tons of hydraulic pressure on Felix lube? It sweats castor bean oil. Now you know.

Bruce, you got it. In the terms I tend to think, "Extreme Lube" for all-weather, either needs to be a very high VI liquid or a slippery solid. Whatever it is, we have to find a way to put it in lube grooves and keep it there when it least wants to be (initial firing), get it to dispense going down the barrel, and finally fling off the last bits at the muzzle. It could be one more thing, and more likely will have to be, something like a modded Felix lube, Speed Green, Starmetal Lube, or Mike's dry lubes (6661 or MML) that simply have consistent friction characteristics whether frozen, liquid, thick film, thin film, rubbing against itself in a pre-fouled bore or bare steel, or under high or low pressure, or between high or low speed sliding surfaces.

We worked on this some, and I think Eutectic is still after the solution to the SUPER cold problem via solid, slippery dry lube additives that make the boolits slide down the bore like they're on a film of runny, molten owl snot on a July day in Texas, but when the lube itself and the gun (with lube fouling in the bore already) is 20 below. If the lube provides the same friction whether it melts fully or not, or is encountering hot liquid residue of itself or frozen-solid congealed residue, then it doesn't matter about viscosity, thermal coefficient, or extended/delayed phase changes in different shooting/weather conditions. The SL-series of lubes were sort of aimed in this direction because the soap is slippery when solid. I just didn't manage to get it quite right, that high soap percentage is a double-edged sword. With my wear tester I can get an idea of how a lube behaves when molten or cooled by controlling the temperature of the contact points (freezing or heating them), but I can't really measure friction with it, only wear scar/time/pressure. I may have to devise another machine to do just that, maybe as simple as a sliding block like is used for verifying CoF calculations in Physics 101 lab exercises.

I believe that consistent friction, low residuals, and easy flow from being very soft are some of the reasons that Starmetal lube worked so well. I never could duplicate the wax nor the Vaseline he used, so was never able to duplicate his recipe. Even though it got very stiff in the cold and thinned some in the heat, it always shot the same in my guns and wouldn't come close to melting on my dashboard in full summer sun.

Gear

[runfiverun]

we keep looking at the poly stuff too.
poly glycol [J-lube], polymerized oils [felix lube], poly olephin ester, and poly alphetic oils.
there has to be a poly type solid out there besides the glycol esters which are not really a carrier base. [and a pita to work with because of their caking nature over 450-f and unwillingness to bond with anything else]
they seem to really perform in temperature extremes.

[357maximum]

How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

Been tried with several different impregnators...all failed in one form or another. Was tried enough that I ruled out methodology of string application.....I think that some "rollover" or "rollout" Ie.. the string messing up the leading edged of the following drive band was the cause after looking at some fired bullets caught in a large swimming pool I was tearing down for a client. Could have been just a carp idea too. Still think the answer lies in the "base" using traditional "lube"...not sure what magic potion that will be however....one of you large hats will figger it out eventually. A mix of beeswax/micro/paraffin gets one close, but screwing with the percentages of the three still only gets you close.......the base is the key methinks.....find that and the actual lube will not matter....deep supposition on my part however.

[cs86]

Thought this was an interesting read. I got through most of the first page and I'm shot and need to go to bed, but I'm wondering one thing. Do longer bands on the boolit design give more consistent drag since you have more surface area riding the bore? Wondering if part of the focus should be on the boolit design for drag? Just a thought to share if it is any help at all... I'll have to read more of this earlier in the day, and learn more from you guys.

[runfiverun]

long bearing bands are well,,,, more grip on the rifling.
they do increase the engraving pressure slightly at the beginning which is not [generally] a bad thing with the amount and kinds of powder we generally use at elevated [for cast] velocity's.
I have been amazed at how much lead I can actually run down a barrel with just a small amount of lube to back it up, several times.

[Bzcraig]

I feel like I am sitting quietly at the feet of the masters to learn! I really appreciate you guys being so willing to take the time to put this in print for the rest of us to learn. Often I have to use my google-fu to understand everything written but, most importantly, I DO learn. Thanks gentlemen!

Craig

[runfiverun]

Bruce:
we can get a lube to flow almost immediately, the issue that pops up there becomes the lube blowing ahead of the boolit.
once the lube makes it to the muzzle you can most assuredly count on it being a carbon soaked mess and generally purging flyers.
I seen this happen in my 9m's last week I had some homogo lube I was/am burning up.
it took about 20 shots for it to reach the muzzle and about 30 more before I had to flush the gun out from the lube gunk in it.
that was at 35-f I'm not looking forward to seeing what happens at 90-f
on the bright side I don't have to lube those cases for reloading.:lol:
this lube might be a good candidate for the gypsum bolstering.....

[smokeywolf]

Is there an ideal or optimal point in the boolit's travel down the barrel that you want that relaxation point to occur? Like maybe in the last 1 to 2 centimeters before exiting the muzzle?

smokeywolf

[gon2shoot]

Good thread,but now you got me thinking. Too windy to mess around outside, the wife ain't gonna be happy with you.

[leftiye]

What you need is a liquid but something that will stay in a grease grove figure that one out.
So then you are stuck with a solid that stay in grease grove and handle loading that will immediately upon firing flow like a liquid.
How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

Sounds like simple green. I like the idea of an oil in a carrier, and stop. I believe the carrier is the problem, as it has to leave the oil behind and not the carrier. And you have to worry about getting the right oil that doesn't turn into varnish, and you have to have it not leave too much, and, and,and......

[leftiye]

Good thread,but now you got me thinking. Too windy to mess around outside, the wife ain't gonna be happy with you.

They really do think we're pets (go lay down by your bowl and lick your cashews). It's not about us having a life, it's about you moved the pillows on the sofa you bad boy. And heaven forbid anything that doesn't smell like perfume should be smelled (Spanish noblemen on the galleys of the Armada?)

[44man]

44man, if purge flyers are caused by bullets too soft then why do some lines give them at temps over 90 but not at 70 degrees? Bullets all from same batch. I think the lube becomes too soft, loses viscosity and it leaves too much oil and too behind it in the bore.

I will say that revolvers and rifles have hugely different lube demands. The revolver has that pesky cylinder gap that changes everything. A rifle allows for seating a bullet into the lands, pretty tough in a revolver. Notice I didn't say handguns, a single shot or auto loader is more like a rifle than a revolver.
Not sure yet is if the rifle needs a different lube of course all my cast rifle shooting was done long ago until I just started with another one. Yes, most of what I do is with revolvers. Lube blown ahead of the boolit is a bigger problem in a revolver but as long the tiny pores in the metal are kept filled (Lube function) and the rest is removed ahead of the boolit so the bore maintains an even condition for the next shot, it does not matter too much unless there is a total loss of friction. Loss of friction or should I say a change from shot to shot is no good in any gun.
Purge from the bore of excess lube and fouling by the boolit has to be there every shot.
Some lubes do not hold up and straight Alox and SPG are two I will not use. SPG always failed after so much barrel length so a dry patch would need pounded through, both leave undesirable junk in the bore to be run over. You can see the affects of a poor lube with leading and even lead plated gas checks. Running over that junk in the bore opens gas ports.
The same thing was happening with moly coated jacketed bullets, it would build up in the bore and was the devil to remove. Then the lube powder that was put on top of the gun powder to increase velocity and seal but it seems to have gone away. Teflon will also build in the bore.
Same as grease cookies, lubed wads and any type of wad for BP cartridge. Except for a filler, they are not needed and bare powder at the boolit base shoots the same. My conclusion is there is not much of anything needs laid down behind a boolit.
I don't know a thing about chemistry and think more in mechanical ideas. It is good there are many really working at it here but there is a thing about it all. When it gets to the point you can't buy ingredients or it gets too hard to make the lube or it costs more then it is worth---WHAT END?

[44man]

Now, I do a lot of lube testing for accuracy. There is a huge difference in groups between one and another along with changes in the POI. But normally I don't see much increase in fliers, just an overall increase in groups.
Too soft has been the flier king and i can use the same lube in the same boolit on the same day and watch fliers go away as I harden the boolits but once too hard it is not worth the trouble.
You contend with skid, slump, uneven starts, and even a complete compression of the lube grooves before the boolit is entirely in the bore.
Even jacketed if not in line with the bore, will not straighten out, rifle or whatever. What chance does bare lead have? Have any of you checked the run out on your cast loads? Have you checked brass run out?
So with all the lube testing being done, there is something you MUST have first. The boolit must be right, from shape, length for twist, velocity and alloy for the gun before you can make the decision about a lube. The powder can't be changed so you can't dump Red Dot in your 06 and then try 4350.
Only one variable should be in play, the weather.
There is my mechanical contribution. Remember, lube testing needs accuracy first, not like the guy that wants to become an expert but his gun can only do 10" at 20 yards.

[geargnasher]

44Man, I maintain that soft lube isn't a problem, even in revolvers, it's slippery soft, oily/greasy lube that gives flyers and big groups. There are some very soft, very "dry" lubes that I've made and tried, among them SL-62 which was only canning paraffin, Ivory soap, and Vaseline in equal parts. That lube leaves no oily residue in the action, bore, or on the outside of revolvers, and no powder fouling. It liquifies under pressure and blows out cleanly. The only problem with it is the soap can accumulate in the first part of the barrel on rifles and accuracy gets erratic after a few shots unless you use a compacting buffer behind the boolit that keeps the heat off the boolit and swabs out the residue each shot.

Gear

[runfiverun]

smokey:
that's a tough question.
from what I have seen, and the reports I have gotten back, about 3/4 the way down the barrel is where it occurs in most rifles [and lever guns too] using what we/i consider 'normal' cast loads.
quite often you'll not see a smear of lube, but will pick up antimonial wash.
this I believe is caused by the pressure not being quite high enough to force the boolit out into the rifling.
if you notice 44 man's fix is to harden the boolit in his revolvers.
it is so he can maintain the boolits integrity all the way through the sequence and skip the relax point altogether.
he also uses a fairly sticky wettish lube.
he rides the borderline between too wet and too hard/soft all the while seeking out the best accuracy from his revolvers by riding that line.
I have done the same thing with the rcbs 30-165 silhouette boolit.
increasing the hardness and slightly softening the lube did show an increase in accuracy.
I still couldn't increase the velocity though.

[felix]

The relax point is real and occurs in a 30-06 bolt gun at 16 inches average, depending very slightly on the powder number commensurate for the projectile. It is the point where the ACCELERATION of the pressure expansion reverses direction. The point was determined experimentally by some American Rifleman author doing barrel chops, 1/2 inch at a time. Noticed was the difference by the shifting of the copper fouling, much like the antimony wash appearance when and where. Obviously, revolter barrels will have a much shorter distance from the chamber where this phenomenon will occur. ... felix

[Elkins45]

So I have been thinking about this thread and came back a day later to find that others have been thinking in similar ways. How about a filler of corn starch holding 2 cycle oil with just a little Vaseline to ooze it all together? Under pressure the starch molecules are little stop leak pieces while the oil component is squeezed out of the intermolecular spaces.

Hmmm...

[44man]

Gear is right and I found the problem with a lube I tried but I can't determine if any were fliers, seemed ALL were.
What I call a flier is 3 or 4 shots in one ragged hole, then one or two out of the group. Even an inch bothers me unless I called it.
Runfiverun, I use Felix and my winter lube is actually the original formula. I just add a little more beeswax for the hot summer. I will find out this summer if I even need to do that. I am really liking the last batch.

[smokeywolf]

I would think the RQ and burn rate of the powder would be the predominant factor in when the pressure behind the boolit falls to the point (relax point) where it is no longer sufficient to obturate the boolit.
I would also think that you would want a lessening of pressure against the imperfect base of the boolit just prior to it losing the physical guidance of the barrel.

As applied to rifle barrels, barrel tolerances are typically measured in tenths (ten thousandths of an inch) rather than millionths, the lube has to provide a certain amount of pressure sealing. I have some doubts that the pressure behind the boolit will cause the diameter to adjust, spring back (obturate) in the .1 to .2 milliseconds that would be necessary to maintain a perfect seal as it passes through varying (+/- .0001-.0002) diameters along the barrel.

smokeywolf

[felix]

Smokey, you just defined the difference between BR ready barrels and the others. Your last sentence. ... felix

[Elkins45]

This idea of a thixotropic lube has really caught my imagination, so I just came back from the garage with two cups of interesting stuff. One of them is a simple mix of corn starch and two cycle oil that looks and feels a lot like a blue biscuit dough. There's no question it would flow through a sizer but I don't know how well it will cling to a boolet or if it has even the remotest chance of performing in a gun. If I get a chance I will load up some 358 Win tomorrow and see if it makes a mess or sprays them all over the target.

It's interesting that it feels a lot like silly putty and not at all greasy. I may need to cream in a little lanolin to give it a bit more cling.

[btroj]

So cornstarch and water behave in a Unique way. Poured slowly or touched softly it Bahamas like a liquid. Punch it hard and it acts more like a solid.

Makes me wonder how cornstarch and oil act. If they make a similar mix then it would go somewhat the opposite of normal lubes under pressure.

Not sure of this is good or not. Makes me wonder about how small amounts of cornstarch would make a normal one behave.

[geargnasher]

I predict leading and streaking of burnt cornstarch solids in the bore, based on my results.

Gear

[btroj]

Yummy.

Gear, have you tried a carrier made of a combination of micro wax, beeswax, and a touch of soy wax? Could the soy wax add the bit of softness we need at lower temps yet if used in about 5 percent levels not cause issues at higher temps?

[Elkins45]

So cornstarch and water behave in a Unique way. Poured slowly or touched softly it Bahamas like a liquid. Punch it hard and it acts more like a solid.

Makes me wonder how cornstarch and oil act. If they make a similar mix then it would go somewhat the opposite of normal lubes under pressure.

Not sure of this is good or not. Makes me wonder about how small amounts of cornstarch would make a normal one behave.

I used to teach middle school science and the corn starch/water behavior was always a good way to model plasticity of partialy molten rocks in the mantle...and just generally a lot of fun to play with. That's what made me wonder about how it might behave as a lube component with the starch acting as a stop leak. I'm wondering if the non-polar nature of oils vs the polar nature of water will change that particular behavior.

Maybe I will know more on Monday if I can make it to the range.

[btroj]

Let us know how it works. I think it will fail but I have been wrong before.

This is how we learn, we try stuff and see what happens.

[runfiverun]

then change it, light it on fire accidentally, spill some on our boot.
then try something else.

[btroj]

I chose to skip the fire, running barefoot into snow, and other such calisthenics. Sadly there are no photos......

I can, however, assure you that ATF grease stinks the house up quite well.......

[smokeywolf]

Let us know how it works. I think it will fail but I have been wrong before.

This is how we learn, we try stuff and see what happens.

3 decades as an engineer/R&D machinist taught me that R&D should actually be expressed as T&E; for trial & error.

smokeywolf

[geargnasher]

Yummy.

Gear, have you tried a carrier made of a combination of micro wax, beeswax, and a touch of soy wax? Could the soy wax add the bit of softness we need at lower temps yet if used in about 5 percent levels not cause issues at higher temps?

R5R has, sort of. I'll let him do the refreshing. The problem I had with soy "wax" is the low melt point. I don't think it's any better, or worse, than any other middle modifier we've fooled with, except in really cold weather it might get too gummy.

I've actually made and shot some dough made of bullplate and baking cornstarch. There's just enough polybutene in the bullplate to hold it together, and it works best if you mash it in a press. In fact, many of the cellulose carriers I tried responded well to being pressed, provided you have a good, sealed container (I used a clutch piston and input housing from an automatic transmission) so the oil doesn't all squeeze out.

Gear

[runfiverun]

soy wax adds a silky smoothness to the beeswax blend.
I ended up adding 10% paraffin to help slow down it's flow a little.
my moly complex uses 60% b-wax 40% soy then I add 10% paraffin to that to help center things a little.
that's why I only use @25% white lith grease, and 15% alox.
i bring the oil up with a small amount of atf when I add the poly-glycol moly stick after cooling everything down to a thick peanut butter consistency.

the soy wax alone will flow super fast and is pretty sticky.
the od green and od brown lubes are made from soy wax and they flow like nobody's business [they will coat a revolver in 2 cylinders full if you don't bolster them] they have no staying power in the lube grooves.

[btroj]

I need to spend some dollars soon and get a few more waxes.

[Bigslug]

I think the "Relax Point" is that mystical far off land where you guys will live when you get The Quest sorted out.:kidding:

Been doing some thinking regarding the "snowplow effect" Gear mentions with regards to the front driving band scraping the bore clear.

Like any kid with a new toy, I've been blasting NOE 429421's down the tube of my Redhawk like crazy the last couple days - the lube being Ben's Red + 5% additional beeswax. There's some streaking in the bore that is obviously NOT lead, but I'm wondering exactly what component of the lube and/or powder (2400) it is.

What I'm wondering is: what this residue is doing for us?. At the BACK of the bullet, we know that lube is being forced out of its grooves by compression from the rear (pressure obturation), the front (drive band being pushed back), the sides (by compression to fit the bore), and by centrifugal force (from rifling). At the FRONT of the bullet, the driving band is compressing down to fit the bore, and it is running into whatever properties we left behind from the last shot. Some of this is obviously getting scraped away (how much is probably impossible to know), but more is being deposited from the back end of the slug. Are we getting lubrication properties from this bore residue? Sealing properties? Friction to help build up consistent pressure in the bore? Makes ya go "Hmmmmm. . .", don't it.

I also have to think that a lot of the "magic" that lube does for us is occurring in the throat / forcing cone area where the effects of engraving and obturation have not yet been finalized. A lube's hardest job is probably here.

[Eutectic]

Friction?????

Friction modifiers????

I am learning whatever we add to our formulations needs to be closely observed.... I think we need to look at the test results of our new formulation closely and try to determine whether we have added a 'friction stabilizer' or a 'friction modifier' ????

In the complexities of lube design a friction modifier could stabilize too I guess as I speculate.... but it doesn't seem so in recent tests!

hBN was showing a lot of promise testing in the lower temps for our future "Extreme" Lube. Good groups; and then they opened up.... Three guns displayed this in 20 rounds or so. Not real bad mind you.... but a minute of angle load became two minutes of angle!
hBN I was to learn, reduces friction for a given load. I found I needed to increase the powder charge slightly to retain my current velocity. I don't have a problem with this load change; I do with accuracy degradation. My hunch is the hBN is eventually coating the bore and making it slicker. A couple patches of ATF & Varsol lets accuracy return but the process repeats itself! I can get more shots before cleaning with Alox 350 on board.

I will closely watch new additions to qualify as 'friction stabilizers' from now on!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

pete.
the question is.
does that hbn coating maintain itself once it's seasoned, or does it build up?
having a slight load change isn't a big deal..... if it is a one time thing.

[felix]

3 decades as an engineer/R&D machinist taught me that R&D should actually be expressed as T&E; for trial & error. smokeywolf

Time and Expense......Travel (memory) and Entertainment ... felix

[felix]

I need to spend some dollars soon and get a few more waxes.

Ah so! What a fun statement to play with. Hydrogenate an oil, a wax appears. Hydrogenate a wax, another wax appears which in most cases becomes significantly different than the previous level. Some levels of hydrogenation actually turn a wax into a wax with "oil" properties. The best example we typically have is Jojoba oil, which by chemical definition is a wax. So, the question begs, why not continue the path selecting waxes having oil properties and see what happens to our lubes? I wish I could provide some things to try that you guys already haven't. ... felix

Just thought of one: See if we can find a version of castor wax that has oil properties? That is something I have not pursued in the past, but prolly this is the time to do so. Castor oil extends the boolit's accuracy (rifle) much like copper does in an alloy, perhaps as much as 300 fps in some ammo compositions. Hopefully, we can find a more general replacement for the castor OIL which would extend the ambient conditions of the lube dramatically. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Read the review at the bottom of the page:

http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/castor-vegetable-wax-flakes-p-614.html

Interesting stuff.

Gear

[felix]

Jump on it, Brad! ... felix

[44man]

This whole post is like asking what BBQ ribs are best. Drop any in front of me and watch them go away.
Now we have guys shooting corn biscuits out of guns--or is that corn pone? :drinks:
Still a great amount of knowledge to absorb but I see no solution in the end.

[felix]

I was just thinking, Jim, your applications are perfectly satisfied with the BBQ you already have on hand, or can make on demand. There is no way we can outshoot you, so there is no way we can prove one lube is better than another for your apps. ... felix

[btroj]

I ordered some from a different place, that one is in Canada so delivery was gonna be slower and they have a 20 dollar admin fee for orders under 100 dollars.

Now to order some microwax from blended waxes

[btroj]

I have on order enough microwax and paraffin to make a bunch of MML or whatever. I think I can lube the entire state of Nebraska once I am done.

[runfiverun]

I remember some of my [feeble] attempts at some hydrogenation.
not knowing exactly what it was or entailed I think I was doomed at the start.
it did however teach me some [shoulda known] lessons about temperature and chemical reactions.
something super simple like castor wax or even safflower wax might be a workable solution.
they could even work with no alterations or just a wax combination.

the stuff the commercial guy's use is really nothing more than micro-wax and some carnuba
it does the job just fine in many applications.
carnuba red is nothing more than a blend of waxes also and it covers the basic temp window too.

I think we learned that a minimum of oil seems to work very well because it's easier to control, I really think the oils are nothing much more than the bore conditioner we need and sometimes act as a modifier to the waxes. [the flow thing again]

[btroj]

Something like castor wax, Vaseline, and beeswax? Would the castor wax add that small bit of slick we need but not leave an oily residue behind?

I also ordered some cetyl alcohol which is listed as a thickener for emulsions. It is a solid so it won't add wet stuff but might well help make a soft lube harder without adding tons of wax or soap.

Maybe a TnT type lube without the soap or at least a max of 10 percent soap. Hmmmmm

[Elkins45]

Does a thickener need to be a wax? If 2 cycle oil alone is a good lube then all we need is an invisible carrier. I'm reminded of the great physics debate of the last century when scientists "invented" an invisible substance that filled the universe (luminiferous ether) so light waves could travel through it. We need a luminiferous ether for oils.

Guar gum? Sawdust? Corn starch?

Maybe kaolinite dust, or is it too abrasive? It would certainly hold the oil well. Saturated kitty litter as a lube? Not sure I want to send clay dust down my barrel, but if it is soft enough it wouldn't have the scorching problem that has been predicted for my corn starch experiment.

[btroj]

Gear did a fair bit of testing with dry additives, the results weren't real promising if I recall correctly. I think some were leading machines!

I am leaning more towards an oil free formula. The oils are what give the be purging issues so reducing them or eliminating them takes care of that. If we can use castor wax instead of castor oil we win, but does it have the lube abilities?

I will mix some castor wax with some other stuff and see how it does.

I also am getting an emulsifier/thickener that might help. We can use it to help tie up oils and do so without the soap levels that cause problems.

I personally don't think dry ingredients offer what we need. The negatives outweigh the positives.

[Eutectic]

pete.
the question is.
does that hbn coating maintain itself once it's seasoned, or does it build up?
having a slight load change isn't a big deal..... if it is a one time thing.

Lamar,

With a treated bore, (one wet patch Dex III & Varsol, one dry) then by 5 rounds my hBN (1.5%) test loads are grouping well @ 14º testing. By 20 rounds the groups open double and don't get any better again until I treat the bore as above. When treated, a lot of black gunk comes out. There is 8% castor oil in this formula.... But I've shot more (8.8%) at -4ºF (Polybutene Felix) without the fall off like this.

I'm not sure if the hBN is treating the bore.... Maybe.... But the simple bore treatment above removes it all and allows testing something else...

I read somewhere that a guy was treating cast boolits with just the hBN powder and shooting them with good results ??? Handgun I think?

I might try the hBN in a tumble lube like 45-45-10. Be sumthin' if that became "Extreme" huh??

Eutectic

[btroj]

Pete, if you find something that works at all temps and it uses Alox I will laugh as I watch Ian eat some!

Does the HBN "deposit" seem to be concentration related? Does it work fine in low levels and cause issues as concentration increases?

I do think it is interesting that you are still using Alox to keep the other oils from getting too wild. Maybe the rest of us are missing something.....

[Eutectic]

Brad.... 1.5% is as low as I've gone with hBN..... Maybe 1% would do better? hBN has disappointed me every time.. (This is my third attempt)

The wax Ian found might be interesting.... BUT

I forgot about Ian's promise to 'eat crow' (raw wasn't it?) if Alox is in the final "Extreme" Lube! And I just had an idea:bigsmyl2:

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Someone here uses hBN over straight LLA to kill the tack. Seemed to work fine in pistols.

Elkins45, I've BTDT with regard to carriers other than wax, I'm all out of ideas. Just start naming stuff, I've probably tried it. As I mentioned on the first page, any carrier composed of solids fails the blowby/runover test. Brings new meaning to the term "lube smear". Hopefully you can come up with something I haven't tried, or give us a new direction to go. The only thing that worked consistently is an oil-saturated felt wad behind the boolit, a waxed-paper disc under that, and Dacron behind that.

Brad, I didn't order from there.....

Gear

[357maximum]

I also ordered some cetyl alcohol which is listed as a thickener for emulsions. It is a solid so it won't add wet stuff but might well help make a soft lube harder without adding tons of wax or soap.

Hmmmmm

Cetyl alcohol is a key ingredient in what makes the old Young Country Lube and Fiebings Mink Oil PASTE work so good for patched roundball in a fronstuffer using real bp....not sure how that would correlate over to smokeless "greaser" boolits at HV........might be a good course to follow......I love the smell of it, it would be cool if it works, but I think it is in the muzzleloader lube to provide/suck up moisture to keep fouling soft......might make a more consistent bore if moisture is maintained........I DO NOT KNOW, but I look forward to your reports.

[btroj]

Mike, you know we will report everything in all it's gory details!

[357maximum]

Mike, you know we will report everything in all it's gory details!


Cetyl alcohol smells so "clean" it would be nice if it pans out......even if it means Ian does not have to eat alox battered crow. :lol:

[btroj]

Alox. Yum. Bet it works great as a laxative, proof of lube purging!

The cetyl/steryl alcohol was labeled as a thickener. I like the idea of something other than soap or lots of wax as a thickener. I figure that I will add 2 to 5 percent.

Knowing it has use in BP lubes it tells me that it does fine in the bore and isn't harmful. I like that.

[geargnasher]

Thickener and emusifier. That other "wax" blend from the Canadian site might be the berries for black powder along the lines Mike mentioned. Anytime I see something capable of holding water and oil both that also has a high melt point I automatically think BP.

Soy lecithin added to Peal Lube, along with a dash of wire cable pulling lube was something I tried a few years ago for frontstuffers and it worked pretty well. Only problem was it dried out a bit over time.

Gear

[Elkins45]

Never mind...answered my own question.

[.22-10-45]

Has anyone tried Ozokerite wax? This is a mineral wax. Adolph Leupold used it in some of his single-shot schuetzen lube formulas.

[btroj]

None of us that I am aware of have tried it. I don't think it is that much different from paraffin.

[44man]

Cetyl alcohol is a key ingredient in what makes the old Young Country Lube and Fiebings Mink Oil PASTE work so good for patched roundball in a fronstuffer using real bp....not sure how that would correlate over to smokeless "greaser" boolits at HV........might be a good course to follow......I love the smell of it, it would be cool if it works, but I think it is in the muzzleloader lube to provide/suck up moisture to keep fouling soft......might make a more consistent bore if moisture is maintained........I DO NOT KNOW, but I look forward to your reports.
I have the formula for Young Country and it has no cetyl alcy in it. Sorry I can't give it out but it is the best lube ever for patches. I have shot over 200 balls in silhouette and never wiped the bore, took first place or second every shoot. Young Country let me hit 4 out of 5 chickens, off hand at 200 meters.
Ballistol makes a good patch lube but you must wipe with a damp patch every shot.
Something of interest for a lube is LPS-3. I use it to preserve ML barrels. It drys to a waxy substance and the gun will NEVER rust. I wipe with one patch, fire a few caps and load. It does not harm the powder at all. Be interesting if it could replace Alox.
I have just a few spray cans that I hoard so can't try it.

[runfiverun]

ozokerite is also called ceresin in some places.
I was shooting ozokerite years ago when I first wanted to replace the micro-wax lubes I had been using.
anyway it's mined from the ground and occurs "naturally"
it has a lower melt point than the micro-waxes do and once melted it tends to stay melted longer.
I remember it draining out of one of my stars when I forgot about the lube sizer for a little while and had it on the micro-wax/carnuba lubes temp setting.

[btroj]

Stays melted longer- good thing possibly? Might help get past the relax point?

The lower melt point isn't making me happy though, won't help in heat.

[357maximum]

I have the formula for Young Country and it has no cetyl alcy in it. Sorry I can't give it out but it is the best lube ever for patches. I have shot over 200 balls in silhouette and never wiped the bore, took first place or second every shoot. Young Country let me hit 4 out of 5 chickens, off hand at 200 meters.
Ballistol makes a good patch lube but you must wipe with a damp patch every shot.
Something of interest for a lube is LPS-3. I use it to preserve ML barrels. It drys to a waxy substance and the gun will NEVER rust. I wipe with one patch, fire a few caps and load. It does not harm the powder at all. Be interesting if it could replace Alox.
I have just a few spray cans that I hoard so can't try it.


My GMS data from a friend shows it has cetyl alcohol in it, and my sniffer that God gave me also says it does....weird?????? I have shot the Feibings PASTE side by side with YCL and they both shot the same even though their odors (to my nose) are ever slightly different. As far as patch lube is concerned with REAL BP alot of things work really well, apparently it is not a demanding role to fill. I use thrice rendered deer tallow more than anything nowadays as I have a bunch of it, and it is free for the rendering...and it works. I use ballistol for cleaning/storing and shooting too sometimes.........never had a rust issue, not once and I live in a humid environment. Patched Round Balls are just easy to get along with, sorry for the hi-jack I guess.

[btroj]

:hijack:

I will let you know how this stuff smells Mike. Hope it is better than ATF grease.

[geargnasher]

I'm far from a BP expert, in fact barely competent, but I've found BP lube to be an easy nut to crack for several reasons. The pressures are lower, we usually coddle and fuss with and baby the bore condition, we keep the bore sopping wet with lube so the C.O.R.E is consistent (if the fouling stays soft, it does so because the lube has wetted it from breech to muzzle and we're pretty much home-free), the shot strings are typically fired at slow rates, the velocities slower, yadda yadda. Patched round balls are a no-brainer because they are great friction equalizers.

Gear

[btroj]

Patch lube is simple. We always used Vaseline hand lotion. Never wiped between shots, fouling stayed soft and so did my hands!
Maybe we need to cloth patch our cast bullets?

[smokeywolf]

Morning Brad.
Dad just had me wet the patch in my mouth. Always worked just fine. Bought some prelubed patches a year or so ago and still haven't taken the old flintlock out to try them.

[44man]

My GMS data from a friend shows it has cetyl alcohol in it, and my sniffer that God gave me also says it does....weird?????? I have shot the Feibings PASTE side by side with YCL and they both shot the same even though their odors (to my nose) are ever slightly different. As far as patch lube is concerned with REAL BP alot of things work really well, apparently it is not a demanding role to fill. I use thrice rendered deer tallow more than anything nowadays as I have a bunch of it, and it is free for the rendering...and it works. I use ballistol for cleaning/storing and shooting too sometimes.........never had a rust issue, not once and I live in a humid environment. Patched Round Balls are just easy to get along with, sorry for the hi-jack I guess.
PM in the works.

[geargnasher]

Nothing wrong with a spit-patch, as long as you shoot it fairly quickly after seating the ball.

Gear

[357maximum]

Nicest thing about "spit patch" is that you were born with a lifetime supply and no one gets accused of hoarding it. :lol:

Personally I like a lube/oil in my bore over bodily fluids, seen the insides of too much plumbing I guess, but we is all free to use what we like.

[44man]

Nicest thing about "spit patch" is that you were born with a lifetime supply and no one gets accused of hoarding it. :lol:

Personally I like a lube/oil in my bore over bodily fluids, seen the insides of too much plumbing I guess, but we is all free to use what we like.
Me too! Spit can be hard to come by when needed too!

[Elkins45]

Elkins45, I've BTDT with regard to carriers other than wax, I'm all out of ideas. Just start naming stuff, I've probably tried it. As I mentioned on the first page, any carrier composed of solids fails the blowby/runover test. Brings new meaning to the term "lube smear". Hopefully you can come up with something I haven't tried, or give us a new direction to go. The only thing that worked consistently is an oil-saturated felt wad behind the boolit, a waxed-paper disc under that, and Dacron behind that.


Gear

I had a very limited opportunity to test my "biscuits n' gravy" corn starch lubes last week. The test rifle was a Marlin XL7 wearing an Adams & Bennett 35 Whelen barrel. It's a quite accurate gun; with the RCBS 200 grain boolet it exceeds my ability to shoot at 100 yards.

The test boolet was a 230 grain gas checked NOE hollow point cast from ACWW. I forget the number but it looks for all the world like an elongated RCBS 200 FN. The powder charge was 21 grains of Alliant 2400 for no particular reason other than that's what my powder measure was set for and I figured it would give enough velocity to see if anything crazy happened immediately.

Two lubes were tested. The blue lube was two tablespoons of dry corn starch and three capfuls (quart bottle cap) of Quicksilver semi-synthetic 2 stroke oil. The white lube was a 3:2 by volume mix of dry cornstarch and generic Vaseline. Boolets were hand smeared with lube and sized to .358 through a Lee sizer. The white lube was much more clingy. The blue had a nice putty like consistency but had almost no clinging power when forced into the grooves. The white lube still retained a bit of the cling and plastic flow of the Vaseline and was much easier to force into the grooves. I only loaded 10 of each, figuring I didn't want to have to pull down a bunch of rounds if the barrel was leaded up after the third shot. The rifle and ammo were cold-soaked in the trunk of my car all day. Shooting temps were just barely above freezing. The bore was scrubbed clean with Ed's Red before each lube was tested.

Results below.

Blue lube, first five shots:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/blue1_zps3f263a30.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/blue1_zps3f263a30.jpg.html)

Blue lube, second five shots:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/blue2_zps19cbc443.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/blue2_zps19cbc443.jpg.html)

White lube, first five shots:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/white1_zps96f599ae.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/white1_zps96f599ae.jpg.html)

White lube, second five shots:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/white2_zps5e783f89.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/white2_zps5e783f89.jpg.html)

Neither produced any leading, but the accuracy trend is interesting. The blue began opening up with the second string while the white began settling down. Hmmm...I'm thinking of mixing the two together to give the white lube just a little bit more body. The consistency as mixed is still too much like Vaseline. Handling and storage quality as mixed wouldn't make this a decent contender for anything except very specialized uses. The fouling wasn't as horrible as I feared it might be and there wasn't a sloppy lube star with either. I think I will load up a whole box of 50 with the next batch and see if it can hold consistency over several strings before cleaning. All in all this experiment was more productive that I had hoped, since I didn't spray holes all over the target and I didn't have to drive a Chore Boy down the bore with a three pound sledge.

I also have 10 of each lube on a 170 grain Lee loaded up in 308 Win with the same 21 grain charge of 2400 as a more extreme test. That should break 2K and give me a better idea if I will get any leading.

[357maximum]

Very interesting...looking forward to the longer strings...../// 100yard targets????

[Elkins45]

75 yards. I shot them after work (dress shoes) and the ground in front of the 100 yard target board was a muddy mess.

This is the boolet:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/1111-015-358318220GrFNHP.jpg

[geargnasher]

I like to see that. The lack of leading is encouraging, and the groups held at least respectably. I think mixing the two together and shooting a bunch more without cleanings is an excellent idea. The consistency of the fouling on the edges of the holes is a good sign, too. Sometimes a lube will leave boolit holes very clean at first and gradually get darker for the first five or ten, telling us that conditions are changing as the barrel warms and gets seasoned.

That flyer in the third pic looks yawed to me, so maybe a bad casting? Interesting how if the flyer is discounted the first and second groups with the vaseline lube are both small, but in very different places. That lube would definitely need a couple of fouled, cold-barrel tests to see about first-shot flyers.

Keep up the good work! Both of those lubes would more than likely qualify as melt-proof/freeze-proof, at least in handling, and I'll give up a lot of other things for that alone.

Gear