What about an old Trap Door?

[jim4065]

Thinking about buying another BPCR - maybe in 45-70. My inclination is to look for an original trapdoor - just cause I seem to hang on to old guns longer. If i'm going to do it I want to shoot the darn thing - and with Holy Black, of course.

What should I be looking for in particular? I saw some "Buffington" sights on some of the rifles for sale on GunBroker - are they a whole lot better than the older issue sights? Is an original ramrod that big a deal? And does it really matter if I can make out the "U" on the barrel bands?

Prices on GunBroker were running from about $450 all the way to $2500. I'm sure not able to spend $2500, but I hate to throw away $450 on a wall hanger. Any idea what a reasonable price would be for a solid gun with a "decent" bore?

Another thought. Been lucky on some of my old guns - actually made a bit when I sold 'em. So is there a "deal breaker" which throws away the value for re-sale, kinda like "Sporterizing" an original Krag?

Lastly - is there a web site that you would regard as "Essential Reading"? :veryconfu

[Buckshot]

"Another thought. Been lucky on some of my old guns - actually made a bit when I sold 'em. So is there a "deal breaker" which throws away the value for re-sale, kinda like "Sporterizing" an original Krag?"

............It appears to me that some were converted into carbine lookalikes, some even using carbine wood, the most common 'Making it better' deal was sanding the stocks. Gotta get rid of those nasty ole cartouches and have the bands rattleing around. Plus haveing the buttplate and triggerguard metal proud of the wood.

"What should I be looking for in particular? I saw some "Buffington" sights on some of the rifles for sale on GunBroker - are they a whole lot better than the older issue sights?

To me the Buffingtons are better sights

"Is an original ramrod that big a deal?"

Not for a shooter it isn't

"And does it really matter if I can make out the "U" on the barrel bands?"

Not for a shooter it doesn't

"If i'm going to do it I want to shoot the darn thing - and with Holy Black, of course."

If you're wanting a shooter, a good solid example is what you want. If it were me I would predicate my purchase on bore condition, lock and action tightness. Loss of blue and/or case colors wouldn't matter so long as there was no pitting or evidence of having been banged on. A mildly sanded stock would also be a non-issue unless they used a belt sander on it :-)

................Buckshot

[StrawHat]

Lastly - is there a web site that you would regard as "Essential Reading"? :veryconfu


These are two that I always recommend when someone wants to know about trapdoors.

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

http://www.trapdoors.com/

Trapdoors are a lot of fun and can be quite accurate. They were also the rifle of choice for some of the buffalo shooters. Not all of them used or wanted the Sharps rifle.

I have a trapdoor in 50-70 built by marrying the barrelled action of an 1866 and an italian 1841 Mississippi rifle. Not paricularily authentic but it is what I had available for the right price and it works!

So, if you find the right parts cheap. you can build your own.

Another place to look for the guns would be Dixie Gun Works. Turner Kirkland was buying them up in the last century and stockpling them on pallets in his warehouse wanting for the prices to climb. They have a bunch of them.

Good luck

[45 2.1]

Unaltered Trapdoors only go UP in value. Those that have been shade tree'd usually don't. Checking an original involves checking bore and crown condition as well as testing the firing pin for easy back and forth movement as well as testing the breechblock hinge for tightness and no or little side to side movement while open. ( I just looked at a cutdown 1866 50-70 that had a very sloppy hinge and catchy latch that I would have bought if those items were ok.)The breechblock latch should work nicely with no hangups or slop. honest wear and tear without abuse along with the finish wear are normal things to accept. Condition is everything in placing a price on it.

[13Echo]

Sounds like you want a model 1884 or 1888 Springfield. These models both have the Buffington sight. Good, shootable ones can be had starting about $650 with really nice ones beginning at about $800. The Trapdoor Collectors site on Strawhats post is one of the best sites to learn about these rifles and to acquire a good example. My buddy Bo has a rifle from that site with a pristine bore that someone had refinished. It went for $750, is very accurate and still looks good but it is not a collectors rifle, but what a wonderful shooter. The condition of the rifles on that site are properly described and reliable. I don't have the same feeling about most things I see on Gunbroker but, with care, a good rifle can be had there.

Jerry Liles

[StrawHat]

Thinking about buying another BPCR - maybe in 45-70. My inclination is to look for an original trapdoor - just cause I seem to hang on to old guns longer. If i'm going to do it I want to

I saw some "Buffington" sights on some of the rifles for sale on GunBroker - are they a whole lot better than the older issue sights?

Lastly - is there a web site that you would regard as "Essential Reading"? :veryconfu

As far as sights go, I have never seen what the big whooop-di-do is about the Buffington. Of course, I can not see the Buffington clearly! Middle aged eyes have caused me to rely on tang sights or large open sights.

Okay, here is another site I remembered. It may make you think about a lesser grade rifle for the purpose of being able to make it more user friendly.

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/Targetized.html

Of course there will be a lot of folks willing to tell you what you should or should not do to a rifle.

Your gun, your choice.

Good luck

[montana_charlie]

As far as sights go, I have never seen what the big whooop-di-do is about the Buffington.
I read a lot of posts...many of them about things I have never seen.

I think I remember someone saying the Buffington sights are built so that, as elevation increases, left windage also increases (in tiny amounts). This would be to automatically compensate for 'bullet drift' (can't recall the technical term) at long ranges.

CM

[13Echo]

The Buffington is designed to compensate for bullet drift. The stadard is slanted to the left so as the standard is raised to increase the range the sight notch or peep moves to the left to adjust for right drift of the projectile. The sight also has a combination of open and peep sights. The peep, however, is small and the sight is rather far down the barrel. None the less it does make aiming easier. Easier than the minute notches on the open sight. Elevation is controlled by raising the bar and moving the slider to match the appropriate range mark. Deflection errors can be easily corrected since the sight has a rack and pinion to adjust the sight left and right. For the time it was a good target sight for a military rifle. It still isn't as easy to use as modern sights but it will do the job. It is a part of the character of these rifles and I rather enjoy using them

Jerry Liles

[NickSS]

I have several trapdoor rifles from the model 1866 through the model 1888. They all shoot well. If the gun is not in absolutely mint condition shooting it does not detract from its value as long as you do not blow it up or wear it out. I Shoot one of my 1866s and also my 1878 and 1884 cadet rifle fairly often. They all have issue sights and all have sufficient accuracy for plinking and hunting. When you want one just for target shooting you want the Buffington sight. They are superior to any of the other sights for target shooting and they should be as thats the primary reason the Army adopted it. The rifle I use for musket matches however is not a trapdoor it is a Pedersoli Sharps infantry rifle. I can shoot it much better than any of my trapdoors but not until I had a Buffington rear sight and a new front blade installed that was wider than the one that came with the rifle. Those two changes cut my group sizes in half.

[jim4065]

Thank you for the responses and for the links. Bought a "low end" 1884 type - or at least it has the Buffington sight. Supposed to have a "very good" bore, see when it gets here.

Now that I'm committed, what's the best boolit for 200 yard shooting with BP? No intentions to hunt with it (as of now), so I'd like to get a mold for something which is somewhat "authentic" appearing, while still getting as much accuracy as is common.

[13Echo]

The least expensive mould for a reasonably authentic bullet is the 405gr hollow base from Lee. It is a good copy of the Springfield 1873 bullet and frequently is a good shooter. A good copy of the 500gr 1881 bullet is the 881 mould from SAECO. The version from Lyman has gained weight and length and will not stabilize in my rifle though it may in others.

My rifle likes Wolf's loading methods which are attempts to duplicate the arsenal loads. I would recommend getting his book from Old Wester Traders (Google the site). For the 1873 I use a carbine load of 59grs FFg Goex, a fed 215 primer, and a panlubed bullet (.460") cast from 30:1 alloy seated to get a firm crimp over the front band. In Bo's rifle it cuts cloverleaf patterns at 100yds. The SAECO bullet casts at .460" and weighs almost exactly 500grs out of 30:1. It sits over a compressed charge of 70gr FFg Goex with a waxpaper wad and a light crimp over the front driving band. The results are accurate enough that I haven't tried anything different yet (but I will). The 1881 bullet would be the one to use for longer ranges. At the Sandy Hook trials it was shot at targets over 3,000 yards.

Do you have any experience in loading black powder

Jerry Liles

[jim4065]

Got a bunch of experience with BP in muzzleloaders, not much BPCR. Do have a 43 Spanish roller which is a "project" at best. Bought an H&R Target rifle (38-55) last summer, but haven't had time to fire it more than 50 shots since I got it. Did use BP in the H&R, using the boolit to compress the powder. I've tried both 2F and 3F GOEX in it, and can't see much difference in what little shooting I've done.

I'll get the Lee 2 banger - and maybe there will be a group buy for a 6 cavity soon. One can always hope. Come to think of it, I need some brass, too. :roll:

[13Echo]

Good. You have some BP experience but you'll find BPCR to be a different animal..You can probably get away compressing the 59gr charge with the bullet but you'll distort the bullet with any heavier charges. A compession die is almost a must as is an expander large enough to allow seating the large diameter bullets used in the trapdoor. If you already have a set of dies you can get a modified Lee from Wolf's for compression and expansion or you can buy a full set. You'll find the rifles a real hoot to shoot.

Jerry Liles

[jim4065]

I have a few jacketed 45-70 Remington factory loads left over from 15 years ago. Is it too risky to shoot these in the Trapdoor? I can tear 'em down to get at the cases, but thought of simply shooting them. Heard that condums can damage the bore, any truth to that?

[13Echo]

A few won't hurt. Just make certain you get all the copper out of the bore after shooting. For whatever reason a coppered bore is frequently not accurate when shooting cast lead.

Jerry Liles

[Yance]

Yee-Haww Another Trapdoor sicko!!:-D

It's been exactly a year since I took my 90+% 1884 home and began my downward spiral into the world of BPCR.

Look around and try to find an older Ideal 457192 mould. Nose is slightly smaller diameter than more recent Lyman versions allowing you to shoot "fouled" longer.

Cast in 20/1 the nose obturates in my rifle to the point that only 3 TINY marks are visible where the front band had been.

Mine shoots as well with "standard" brass as it does with cases which have had the flash hole enlarged to .093.

As mentioned earlier a compression die is a "must" because you're gonna be compressing a 70 gr load about .400"! The .458 expander plug sold by Wolf's Western Traders uses the same (Lee) die body as the compression plug. I only use the expander for new cases, and to finish ironing out the last bit of crimp from fired cases.

I don't size my cases so all that's needed is to slightly bell the casemouth in order to seat bullets. Crimp only has to be enough to keep the bullets from falling out of the case.

I've had no good results with the Lee 405 HB so I stick with my Ideal 457125.

With the Buffington's bottom peep set at it's lowest possible position you're still going to be about 12" high @ 100. Don't know how much taller front blade will be required to bring the POI down to match your POA. I just "stack" two targets and shoot "at" the lower one scoring hits on the top one.

After shooting the Trapdoor for a few months you'll probably wind up with a '74 Sharps or Rolling block repro. Hey, you've already got dies and a mould.:twisted: Then you'll stumble onto a nearby "fun" BPCR match shooting metal animals offhand, and with luck they'll have a BPC revolver stage included in the match. Gee, sounds like I've been there.:-D Yeah, and I can't wait for the first Saturday in March when our matches start back for the 2008 season!

[Yance]

BTW, I've seen no difference in accuracy, and very little difference in fouling between Goex FFg and Cartridge. Just make or buy a blowtube and remember to use it. (Yeah, I've forgotten at times)


Also stay away from petroleum based lubes. I have very good results with 1/1-2/1 Beeswax/TC Bore Butter.

[jim4065]

This guy, http://cgi.ebay.com/LYMAN-SPECIAL-RUN-45-70-45-75-1-CAVITY-350-GR-457192_W0QQ
itemZ140184179046QQihZ004QQcategoryZ71118QQrdZ1QQs sPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
?_trksid=p1638.m118 on ebay is offering new 457192's for $75 plus $9 for my shipping. Does that sound like a deal or should I keep looking for a used one?

Not finding any 457125's right now either. Which one's better in the trapdoor? I will probably wait to receive the gun before ordering any molds, etc. Spent way too much on the 43 Spanish roller before I got a chance to see how worn the bore is.

[13Echo]

In my 1884 the Lyman 457125 mould that I have casts a bullet to small in diameter to properly bump up even with 30:1 alloy to fit the Trapdoors large bore. It also seems to have been too long and heavy, having gained 20 to 30 grs and corresponding length over the original arsenal bullet. I have found the 881 bullet from SAECO to be very accurate in my rifle. It casts just under .460" and is a nearly perfect copy of the original 1881 bullet. Now others have had success with the Lyman version and you may also. As for the Lee 405gr, it seems to need a very firm crimp. At least it does in the two rifles I've shot it in. Your results may vary.

You will need a proper set of dies. Since you'll need to seat plump bullets without shaving lead it will require an expander a bit larger than what is usually supplied. Also to seat bullets with the larger charges of powder you'll need to compress the powder before seating the bullet. If you don't yet have a set of dies you could do a whole lot worse than to get the 5 die set from Wolf's Western Traders. It's set up to load for the Trapdoor from the get go.

Jerry Liles

[Larry Gibson]

13Echo gives good advice....another mould to look at is the Rapine 460500. It is a faithfull copy of the M1881 trapdoor 500 gr bullet. Mine cast a .4615 bullet with a 1-16 tin-lead alloy. I've a H die honed out to just touch the bullet and to lube with. I make my own BP lube out of olive oil and beeswax. The 5 die set of Lee dies is the way to go along with a Lyman neck size die (.45 short). I also made a .459 expander plug for my Lee dies for the .461 sized bullets. While checking out the dies you might want to get Wolf's Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Rifle and Carbine book. It is a wealth of information concerning replicating original loads for the TDs. While I use many of Wolf's techniques I also tweak them for more accurate target loads for my target TD.

Larry Gibson

[jim4065]

OK - it was delivered by FedEx today for 1/4 of the cost quoted by UPS. What's wrong with UPS?

Anyway, it's god-awful beautiful. The Buffington sight has more holes and notches than I know what to do with, and I can't figure out how to pull the frushlugginer ramrod. It's "who you know"?

Decent bore, good but worn bluing, decent stock with no cracks, and a sling that's seen better days but will get a blast of WD40 real soon. Had buyers remorse a few times with these Internet deals but I feel good about this one. Off work today, so I'll get a chance to pop a few factory loads at the range. Glad it's winter, I need time to sit down and load various and sundry cartridges. 5000 rounds ought to do.

For some reason SWMBO thinks I should spend some time reflooring the attic - the heathen. :shock:

[Yance]

OK - it was delivered by FedEx today for 1/4 of the cost quoted by UPS. What's wrong with UPS?

Anyway, it's god-awful beautiful. The Buffington sight has more holes and notches than I know what to do with, and I can't figure out how to pull the frushlugginer ramrod. It's "who you know"?

If you haven't figured it out yet here's some help.

The rod is held in by the retainer inlet into the barrel channel. It's a good thing that yours didn't pull straight out easily. Broken retainers are one of the causes of inaccuracy from those rifles.

Grab the front end of the rod and pull it down away from the barrel. It will take a fair amount of pressure if everything's in good shape. This will allow the rod to clear the retainer so it can be pulled forward out of its recess. Notice the groove cut around the fat section of the rod about 5 inches from the front. I was afraid I'd bend mine the first time I finally managed to pull it out.

Hope you enjoy loading for that one as much as you do shooting it.

[jim4065]

Thanks for the tip on the cleaning rod. At first I thought it had a screw on the "lower" end, but I see it's a jag of sorts.

Went to the hills yesterday and fired the dozen rounds of factory fodder I had on hand. Great fun to shoot, and no unpleasant kick. Going to need a new front sight blade - it shoots so high that I can't enjoy killing bottles. Are the tall front sight blades a stock item somewhere? Seems like there would be some demand.

The mold and brass came from Grafs, very nice people, got to start doing more business with them instead of Midway. I can see where I'll have to keep some 30 to 1 on hand along with the "pure" lead, the ww's, and the linotype.

[KCSO]

The front sight blade is pinned in and is easy to make. Yu cut one high and file it down. The battle sight is set for like 200 yards and shoots way high close up. This is no problem when you are shooting a man size target but distracting when plinking. Decided what you want to do before you change the sight as there are more and more places having military shoots and if you shoot 200 yards you will want the original sight. Remember that the trapdoor will string groups some and this is why the military targets were oval. If you want a real hoot make up some gallery loads with 457 round balls and 4-7 grains of ffg. these will hit dead on at 50 feet and are dead quiet.

[Yance]

Battle sights are regulated to 275-285 yards with these rifles. Even using the bottom "peep" as low as it will go and still be able to see through it leaves POI about 13"-14" above POA @ 100 yd. I.e., I "stack" two 8 1/2" X 11" targets with 6" black bulls, hold 6:00 on the bottom one and drop bullets into the 9 and 10 rings on the top one.<G>

Some old timers replaced the issue front blade with a half of a silver dime and the rifles STILL shot high. Guess we just need to back up to 300 yards and have at it.:-D

[405]

Don't know the exact battlefield registration for POI at lowest setting on a trapdoor... may depend on the model, type of sight installed and the type of ammo issued????
But, to make one practical for most shooting and load testing it's best to replace that front sight blade and use the lowest setting on the Buffington and use the peep. The front sight height on an original is about .240" from top of barrel to top of sight. To get the POI to a reasonable and practical range the front will have to be about .445" from top of barrel to top of sight. Slug the bore, go to the oversized cast that will fit correctly in the chamber (maybe a .459-.460), load to about 1100-1200 fps within safe pressures and have a ball!!!- great guns!

[PatMarlin]

I love my 1884 Cadet II with buffington sight. Mint bore.

Paid bout' $700 for mine, and groups nicely with a 450gr Lee boolit.

[13Echo]

That is a very handsome rifle.

Jerry Liles

[PatMarlin]

Thanks Jerry.

It is a special one. I will cherish it for the rest of my life. Now if only it could talk.. :mrgreen:

[Cloud9]

I followed Wolf's data and loaded the carbine load for my 1891 trapdoor. I was able to shoot 2.5 inch groups using the Lee mold. On thing though, the thing shoots 21 inches high at one hundred yards.

[405]

They do... usually.... a couple of posts previous :mrgreen:

Trapdoor front sight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know the exact battlefield registration for POI at lowest setting on a trapdoor... may depend on the model, type of sight installed and the type of ammo issued????
But, to make one practical for most shooting and load testing it's best to replace that front sight blade and use the lowest setting on the Buffington and use the peep. The front sight height on an original is about .240" from top of barrel to top of sight. To get the POI to a reasonable and practical range the front will have to be about .445" from top of barrel to top of sight. Slug the bore, go to the oversized cast that will fit correctly in the chamber (maybe a .459-.460), load to about 1100-1200 fps within safe pressures and have a ball!!!- great guns!

[jim4065]

Got a 45 Long M die at a decent price, but I'm not seeing the advantage over the Lee "Powder thru Expander" Die. Seems like the M die could be cut down to make a combination compression and expansion die. That would be usefull. Re-reading the above advice - it stands out that I was told to buy a 45 Short die. (A fool and his money ..........) If I buy the "short" innards from Lyman and get that combination I'm looking for, will it work? :???:

[13Echo]

Jim, for expanding the case the usual factory expanders often don't work for the large diameter bullets used in the Trapdoors. For my 1884 I bought a two diameter expander from Buffalo Arms that gives me about .002" less than the bullet diameter with a step up to give about .001 to .002 above the bullet diameter to get it started in the case. Holds the bullet tight without shaving lead. The expander just replaces the one that came with the die. The compression plug from BA does the same. If you are using Lee dies then you can get the appropriate expander and compression dies and plugs form Wolf's Western Traders.

Jerry Liles