I read an interesting 44mag penetration test. What do you think?

[yotatrd4x4]

Now let me say I have a lot of experience with 45Colt but have moved away from it to the 44mag. Reason being is I had a close call with a new vaquero and a load that was for my blackhawk. Anyhow I know I should have always kept loads seperated and marked and such bit what happened was this. I normally take a sharpie of different colors to indenting my loads if I used te same boolit. I use blue for cool or lighter loads and red for warmer or near top loads. I will also put info on sides of cases as well as mark the base with a stripe in each color. Anyway my wife and I were shooting one day and it was rainy in Alaska weird huh? I trained her on te marking since she loves standard Colt loads in the big guns since it recoils less than a 1911. To cut to the chase the rounds were in seperate cases that are red and blue as well to show again what they are. Somehow when we were shooting I traded off the blackhawk for the vaquero new model and managed to load 1 hotter load in it. All was fine and when I say hot it is still well below max ruger only load but it scared me and after that I decided I would only have 1 45colt that can either handle all loads or get rid of them. Well I'm so dang long winded, sorry about that. I sold the 45Colts and decided to get a 44 mag to keep me from worrying about this issue. I read on this link I posted about a Keith style 240-300gr boolit will out penetrate a wide flat nose. I also saw the JDJones designed boolit of about 325gr and thought I like that design and it seemed to perform well also. My main reason for a heavy load is only for bear country where I may be covered in Caribou or Moose blood etc while cleaning an animal and I can hold my rifle while doing that. If any of you have ever cleaned a big Moose you know you have to crawl inside if you fully gut it. Ok so do you think the listed site is pretty correct in the statements made? I'm looking for penetration and only penetration. Right now I only have a 200gr rfn for plinking loads and a 240gr swc for full power but may invest in heavier mold.
http://www.lasc.us/fryxell44overweight.htm

[jmort]

The Linebaugh Seminars and the "Bone Box" provide useful information regarding penetration. This article is long on theory and short on facts. You want penetration, then use Punch bullets from Belt Mountain. Get some Punch Bullets and then you know you are at max penetration with a large meplat to boot.

[Fluxed]

I am not a super heavy bullet fan. I'm also pretty sure that a 429421 type bullet (or something flat nosed in the 250-265 grain range) with a full load of powder behind it will shoot through most anything anyone has any business shooting at with a handgun.

[bhn22]

I am not a super heavy bullet fan. I'm also pretty sure that a 429421 type bullet (or something flat nosed in the 250-265 grain range) with a full load of powder behind it will shoot through most anything anyone has any business shooting at with a handgun.

However, we cannot plan all the details of life, and we need to prepare for worst case scenarios, rather than hoping for the best. It's best to not be caught short. 275 gr to 280 gr at 1300 fps in a 44 magnum is cheap insurance.

[yotatrd4x4]

Thanks for the info and opinion guys. I'm not interested in buying boolits. They are way over priced and seems today 1 boolit design lasts a few years then onto the next craze. I'm a cast boolit junkie and won't buy when I can makes my own. I know NEI makes a JDJones boolit mold with a truncated fine that's supposed to be a heck of a boolit and its heavy at 325gr give or take your alloy. I may save up for one of those.

[Blammer]

May want to email Swedenelson of NOE and see if he has any of the 300gr'nres on the top left.
I have the NEI 325 you speak of and it's a nice one. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg.html)

[crawfobj]

Blammer, that picture makes me drool every time I see it!

[yotatrd4x4]

Blammer thanks for the heads up that looks like a good boolit as well but I am so interested in that NEI 325gr setup that it will be hard for me not to pick that one. As it was said earlier in the thread I can't plan for everything and would rather do my best with what I can. I don't hunt with the 44 as its a Ruger SBH stainless with 4 5/8 barrel. Its primary job is range fun with 44 special type loads in mag brass say on the hot side of specials and then I carry it when in hairy places here. I feel it's not enough gun 90% of the time but I am not willing to get a giant 500 and try to lug it around. I also feel about all I can handle is heavy 44 mag from this barrel length. I had a 8 3/8 500 what a joke it was. Kicked terrible was louder than a hand grenade and I don't trust that damned lock on it. Anyway didn't mean to bash just saying all I can personally handle is heavy 44 in this size gun. Now before anyone jumps to conclusions I don't carry only the 44. I hunt all my quarry with a Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger because all my hunting areas are full of big hairy beasts that bite. I know its a big gun for caribou but it works just fine as did my 338win mag before it that killed 2 caribou. The 44 is never the gun that my 375 is but when your dropping a duece in the woods its nice to have a piece of steel on your chest in the dark. Here are the caribou to spice up this thread.
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo43/yotatrd4x4/074B9913-1478-4DC3-BEB8-127FAFFF7F58.jpg (http://s360.photobucket.com/user/yotatrd4x4/media/074B9913-1478-4DC3-BEB8-127FAFFF7F58.jpg.html)
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo43/yotatrd4x4/EDFCFF66-1B9C-4D83-B058-818A5AA9A597.jpg (http://s360.photobucket.com/user/yotatrd4x4/media/EDFCFF66-1B9C-4D83-B058-818A5AA9A597.jpg.html)

[Groo]

Groo here
The SSK cast boolet to which you refer is called a ramslammer, it goes about 320gr [328gr in Laurance magnum metal].
There are two versons, the original that was too long for an S&W m-29 [ JD said the 29 was not tuff enough for the loads-pre upgrade]
And a 2 crimp groove for all 44's.
I would advise ordering some from Penn bullets to try. [loading data is provided] They will light up your life!!!!!!!
As these loads and boolet have been used to take the largest game allover the world, you will be well covered..
Ps= we used the load on Ohio deer,the only on recovered was a rear shot at over 75 yds with a reduced load...
200 to 240 hps are much better for deer, the 320's at recomended load just dont slow down, not enough meat.

[lawdog941]

The Lee 310gr WFN seems to works wonders for some people on here. I'm just not familiar with their loads as I have a 3 in. S&W 29, and haven't found a powder to burn efficiently and offer some suitable speed. For longer barrels, it should get positive results.

dogg

[bullboo1]

I am confused as why you changed from 45 colt to 44 m,agnum as the 45 colt can get way more accomplished then a 44 magnum with way less cartridge pressure. Especially in heavy Ruger wheel guns. I have a Ruger 44 magnum carbine and it loves hot 240 to 270 gr loads plus I have an old S&W 29 nickel plated with 4 inch barrel. I still would love a 45 Colt carbine and Ruger wheel gun. You can buy cartideg boxesa dn mark them with a pen and keep only on load in them or even bake on oil based color enamel on cast bullets and resize them and use collors for light, medium and heavy loads. the baked on colors will not come off from weather and go to You tube on a video on how to do it. Yes a 44 ganum has heavy penetration but a like size and wieght 45 colt load can do the same if loaded corectly and a bunch safer load then the heavy 44 mag loads. Your already taking large game any ways so you seem to know what your doing. I can only use jacleted bullets in my Ruger 44 magum carbine as lead would ruin it. Moder nAutoloaders are best with jacketed rounds.

[yotatrd4x4]

Bullboo1,

No offense but I thought I made it pretty clear in the first post why I switched. Also factor in I can get 44 mag ammo in any store up here that sells ammo or find about any guy in the woods and get a few rounds if need be. Now to find a ruger only 45 colt load up here you can find maybe 4 stores that have buffalo bore and all the rest is CAS type loads that won't do. I had the 45colts for 3 years and put about 1k rounds thru each. After almost blowing up a new vaquero that cannot take ruger only loads as its a medium frame ruger like the 3 screw 357 was it made me rethink the whole thing. If I die and my wife and son continue to shoot with my gear or I somehow forget what load is what if its a 45colt I will always wonder if its a ruger load or a regular load. With a 44 mag if it says 44 mag its good to go. I didn't start the thread to argue over 45colt and 44mag in a ruger or strong gun neither will do anything the other won't. They are for the sake of arguement dead even. No animal or person could tell the difference when both are loaded to their max potential. Here I am asking for 44 mag guys, who use heavy and light loads what boolit they like and wanted to ask if they have any proven data on heavy vs standard boolits. I know a good amount on this subject but I know a lot of fellers here know way more on 44 mag than me. Personally the only time I have seen a big brown up close to me I felt like a 50bmg in an M82-A1 may be what I would want with me but I have the 44 so I wanted to get some real world experience on what boolit will run thru a large animal like a grizz or brownie.

[MtGun44]

Ask if any hunter has EVER recovered a 429421 from game? I haven't shot that
many animals with it but it never stopped in the ones I have shot. Expending more
power on the scenery doesn't interest me.

Bill

[AlaskanGuy]

Here ya go sir....

97059

Against this

97060

+ practice, Practice, PRACTICE = the best you can do with a 44 mag in my opinion...

AG

[Piedmont]

Heavy .44 bullets will make the recoil worse, which could be a bad thing in a bear attack. Something to consider, anyway.

[yotatrd4x4]

AlaskanGuy thanks for the info I know some folks don't realize the size of a brownie. For the guys who don't know I mean no offense to you its just that when my size 13 boot fits into a brownie track you can kinda judge what the rest of him or her looks like. They scare the **** out of me for sure. Especially while cleaning animals. I try to always go at it with a partner as one of us can keep watch. Some moose areas though are thick and you can't see far enough to throw a rock that's the bad spots. The Bou hunting is no big deal as I am on top of a mountain where I can see a long ways off. Anyhow I will look into the lee 310 as well as a few others here. Hell maybe I will eventually have a sampling like Blammer does.

[PWS]

I can't add much to the great advice already posted but I'll throw in my 2c.

Last summer I worked with a guy who's lived all over the state and he made an interesting comment about ammo availability. No matter how remote the village, he said you could always find .30-06, 12gauge, and .44Mag ammo so good choice for a sidearm.

I don't think you'd go wrong with any of the bullets suggested, especially loaded in a revolver with the size and strength of the SBH. You'll get plenty of penetration for the kind of front end defensive shots you're anticipating and they would probably do just fine on going away shots too. Besides, convincing a bear to leave you alone doesn't necessarily require that you kill it DRT with a monster stomper.

FWIW, I had a chance to shoot up a 10'ers carcass with my wife's 4" SP101 .357 to see what it would do. With a hard 180gr Keith SWC at 1150fps, any crosswise no-bone hit gave complete penetration, when placed on the shoulder, it broke it and was close to exiting the offside, and when shot into the neck, it handily broke the neck but remained lodged just past the vertebra. Same results with a hard cast 165gr SWC with 0.270" meplat (AccurateMolds #36-165C) at 1225fps. To me, this proved those loads to be adequate enough for defensive purposes.

[yotatrd4x4]

PWS thank you for some real world testing info. That's what I like to hear or see. I have been close to a few bears but shooting is a last resort. I even have spray usually as I would rather blast an angry or aggressive bear with that first so as to say I did try and get it to go away. Last thing I want is an issue of te court saying you could have avoided killing the animal and make me pay for it. Please nobody take this as I want to pop a bear that gets close to one of my kills I am as above stated only preparing for the worst but hoping for the best. I would much rather hunt a brownie and kill it with a tag and he to keep it after all the skinning and defleshing. I do not want to kill a bear then do all the work just to give the hide and skull to the Troopers.

[BruceB]

From personal experience with cast .44 Magnum bullets on BIG game, I have never seen the need for anything heavier than 429421 or 429244.

My particular bullet was 429244 WITHOUT the gas check, cast from an alloy of about 2/3 linotype:1/3 pure lead.

The bullets weighed 265 grains in that alloy, and the speed from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk was in the 1400-fps range.

The animals were adult bull moose and adult wood bison. Test-firing on the carcasses of freshly-dropped animals, the 244 bullet RELIABLY penetrated completely through the shoulder area of both species. RELIABLY, based on seven or eight animals. The largest of these test subjects was probably about 1200 pounds, based on the weight of meat we ended up with. The exiting bullets still had plenty of energy remaining, judging by the big divots kicked up from the ground beyond the animal.

I actually bought a LEE 44-310 mould, but used it mainly to create stop-gap bullets for my .404 rifle. I certainly saw no need for a .44 revolver bullet that heavy since having my "attitude" adjusted by the sterling work of the 429244.

Besides, there's nothing in Nevada to rival the weight of those Territorial critters of the Far North.

[yotatrd4x4]

Bruce B thanks for more real world info. I have a feller who is gonna make me a mold. I will test my 240gr swc and may end up with a 300 or 325 bullet to try as well. I greatly appreciate all the knowledge from all of you as well as your opinions. This will help me decide what I need or want I guess.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Well folks, first things first...shoot what you are comfortable with[smilie=1:
I have a 454 and I don't use much...not much difference at close range...if you are charged by a brown, you will be shooting at a bear coming head on....best shot is just under the skull as it will penetrate through all the vitals and slow him down , then kill the sucker.

I have lived in Alaska for 38 years and have had my share of run in's with these great creatures , most of the time you can avoid having to shoot them, if you know them, they will false charge quite often...the time you have to shoot or no shoot can be very short.

I always carry my Ruger 44 mag with 250 gr boolits that I know will not shatter at close range. They work for me. I have hunted the bear and have been hunted by the bear. Only a person with no weapon will wait to pepper spray a bear. If he is serious, you are in deep trouble. IMHO[smilie=1:

[Forrest r]

The bbl length of the revolver you plan on carrying makes a huge difference in your bullet selection.

Long bbl ='s heavy bullet
Short bbl ='s light bullet

Those 300+gr bullets don't do so well in 4" bbl's or the marlin lever actions with their 1 in 38 twists. I have shot/tested several weights of bullets in a 6" bbl'd 44mag & found that the 300+gr bullets were only marginal at best and the 270gr (cast 2 different versions keith swc/640) performed better. In a 4" bbl'd 29 the heavy bullets (300gr+) were like spitting in the wind, the 270gr's were marginal & the 240/245's performed the best.

If I read your post right you'll be using a 4 5/8" bbl/short bbl'd revolver. You might consider asking what kinds of velocities people are getting/using to have those heavy bullets perform.

4 5/8" bbl:
240gr bullets ='s around 1500fps
270gr bullet's ='s around 1300fps
310gr bullets ='s around 1100fps

I understand the craze for the 44mags & the heavy bullets but you'll be hard pressed to get 1100fps out of that 4 5/8" bbl with a 325gr bullet. For pure penetration in a short bbl'd 44mag the lyman pointed 200gr bullets 429303's are hard to beat. You can easily wind these things up to 1800fps+ out of that 4 5/8" bbl.

97087

All's these things are designed for is penetration. Just something to think about & test. Normally I prefer a heavy bullet over a light bullet but I've owned/shot enough snub nosed/short bbl's pistols & revolvers over the decades to know the bullet nose profile plays a huge role in bullet penetration at low velocities.

Just something to think about.

forrest r

[Ed K]

Just a quick note on the 45 for those who may also be worrying - not trying to argue or change your mind. Load "Ruger-only" loads to an OAL which cannot chamber and fire in your mid-frame Ruger or SAA. This is foolproof.

That said I like 44s and 45s so much I could not rid myself of either!

An LBT 280gr LFN is plenty of penetration in a 44 for me.

[cbrick]

I can only use jacleted bullets in my Ruger 44 magum carbine as lead would ruin it. Modern Autoloaders are best with jacketed rounds.

bullboo1, welcome to CastBoolits.

I really hope you stick around here. In very short order you will learn the silliness of that old wives tale and believe me, it is an old wives tale.

Rick

[leftiye]

However, we cannot plan all the details of life, and we need to prepare for worst case scenarios, rather than hoping for the best. It's best to not be caught short. 275 gr to 280 gr at 1300 fps in a 44 magnum is cheap insurance.

Going from 265 to 275 isn' mucha a difference. Actually neither is going from 250 to 280 all that much. The 44 is way long on penetration, and a flat nose of tough lead hitting even heavy bone will probly not stop.

[44man]

I just hunt deer but use a heavy boolit. I love the Lee 310, the LBT 320 and I made a mold for a WLN that hit 330 gr. One reason is the accuracy and just how quick they kill deer is next. I run all at about 1316 fps and wonder if a 4" barrel can stabilize these.
I would be more inclined to use a 265 gr for the shorter barrel.
With a tough boolit I would not worry about penetration and the Keith won't stop short.
I do not like anything lighter then 240 gr in the .44.
Anything from 250 to 265 will work in any .44, the S&W loves them.
A Rem factory load only does 11" in soaked phone books, the RD 265 does 33" and my 330 does 34". Soaked books are a tough medium so they will go much deeper in animals.
The heavy boolits at the proper velocity will do more internal damage, I see it with the numbers of deer I shoot. Higher velocities or much lower do NOT do as good on the smaller animals but higher velocity for a large bear is good.

[AlaskanGuy]

You tell em 44 man.... Them phone books tell the tale.... Big, hard, proper velocity, and ..... DID I MENTION PRACTICE....

[PWS]

....
A Rem factory load only does 11" in soaked phone books, the RD 265 does 33" and my 330 does 34". Soaked books are a tough medium so they will go much deeper in animals....

I've always figured I was getting around 3-4' of penetration from standard full powered .44 cast loads in game. On deer, that doesn't leave many recovered bullets unless you hit a lot of spine lengthwise.

[PWS]

From personal experience with cast .44 Magnum bullets on BIG game, I have never seen the need for anything heavier than 429421 or 429244.

My particular bullet was 429244 WITHOUT the gas check, cast from an alloy of about 2/3 linotype:1/3 pure lead.

The bullets weighed 265 grains in that alloy, and the speed from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk was in the 1400-fps range.

The animals were adult bull moose and adult wood bison. Test-firing on the carcasses of freshly-dropped animals, the 244 bullet RELIABLY penetrated completely through the shoulder area of both species. RELIABLY, based on seven or eight animals. The largest of these test subjects was probably about 1200 pounds, based on the weight of meat we ended up with. The exiting bullets still had plenty of energy remaining, judging by the big divots kicked up from the ground beyond the animal...

Those are definitely BIG critters! Just curious but were any of the hits through a major bone?

Like you, I have not seen ANY difference in performance between hardcast 240SWCs@1400 and heavier 300LFNs@1200 in what I've shot but have the impression that one major bone structure is enough to significantly reduce the number of complete pass-throughs with a .44.

[MtGun44]

Thanks, Bruce. I haven't tested on that big of animals, but I was pretty sure nobody ever
recovers a 429421 or similar 250ish SWC. Sounds like your testing has verified this on multiple BIG
animals.

" I can only use jacleted bullets in my Ruger 44 magum carbine as lead would ruin it.
Modern Autoloaders are best with jacketed rounds. "

And, yep lead will just RUIN a modern autoloader. . . . . . . :kidding: sorry, this is hogwash.

Bill

[yotatrd4x4]

Have to agree on the lead ruining auto loader is hogwash. Heck my garand and AR don't mind it at all and the AR is prob one of the worst cast guns around as far as design goes but it works good with the right load. Anyhow I am still undecided on boolit design. I have a fellow Alaskan who is gonna recut one of my lee molds but as of now I'm still thinking. I do like Keith types and the SSK. Also wouldn't mind a modified lee type flat nose. My old 454 would make the 300gr lee jump crimp every time even with lighter ish loads. Maybe a 280-300 will work for me.

[44man]

I have never recovered a cast boolit, even out of the ground after full penetration.
I shot this deer under the chin at 76 yards, (might have been 67 but I forget.) facing me on a down slope. Took out the spine, most of the short ribs and exited at the ham. No meat loss either, missed all the guts too.
It was a 420 gr from my .475. Perfect straight line penetration. 97170
Now if you think a heavy .44 boolit does not work, here is a deer shot with my 330 gr. The meat actually cleaned up, just massive blood there and on the ground. 97171
I would not fear using any of these on a bear or T Rex.

[yotatrd4x4]

Awesome I love the pictures and real world testing. I know guys post a lot of **** on opinion and what they suggest but as they say a picture is worth 1000 words. I got a double mold that's gonna be reworked into a 280gr SSK with same meplat as a Keith so it outta penetrate like the dickens and the other cavity is gonna be a modified Keith 280gr with larger meplat for the energy transfer of those big slugs. I am gonna try and test them next time a buddy kills a big brownie or if I fill my brownie tag as we keep the hide and skull but not the nasty ole meat. I will skin it out and see if I can recover one of these afterwards. I will try and hit some bones to as this may be the best test media since that's what I want to keep off me in the first place.

[white eagle]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-320A-D.png,
check out these mold from Tom @ Accurate
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-300D-D.png,
these are as accurate as they are sexy

[yotatrd4x4]

White Eagle those do look nice except that gas check shank. I have not needed a gas check on any hot 45colt loads so I would think with my hard water quenched alloy they add more cost than advantage. I do like those but looks like the Lee 310 is near the same mold minus having as good a quality of course. I like heavy boolits too but decided to go with a 280gr and see what she can do. If I can tolerate a bunch of those then I will surely move up to a heavier boolit like a 300-325 ish. I saw buffalo bore runs a 340 +p+ they call it but with no specs on what +p+ pressure is I wouldn't trust it even in my Ruger. I do appreciate everyone giving me a lot of info on the 44mag it seems it will be right at home since it and my old 45Colt are near the same animal minus a little girth.

[High Desert Hunter]

My testing showed that my 44 with 315gr bullets at 1250 penetrated only 8" less than my 454 with 330s at 1550, but the difference in wound channel was pretty dramatic, 454 was twice as large.The 44 beat the 45 Colt with the 330gr bullet by 3 inches, but the 45 did have a larger wound channel in the phone books and newsprint, but no where near as dramatic as the 454. Because of the WFN bullet in the 454, the wound channel even exceeded that of my 45/70, but 48" of media wasn't enough to capture the 45/70 with an RCBS 420gr GC bullet at 1750 or so (don't have the actual velocity written down). The 44 with a 300+ grain bullet at 1150-1350 will handle anything you're likely to encounter.

[Larry in MT]

I was asking this same bullet weight question in the mid 80s; as I hunt, camp and fish where Griz are present.

I carry a 5" 629 S&W during these trips and its only use is Bear protection.

At that time, Cor Bon insisted that their 300 grain flat point fully jacketed was superior to any hardcast. I carried them for a few years and I still have some of them. I never did Chrono any, but they are loaded to the gills!

In later years, I searched for more info about 44 Mag Bear loads.

Through a friend's recommendation, I ended up talking to Marshall Stanton, who owns BearTooth bullets. Marshall advised me to go with the 280 grain WFNGC instead of a heavier bullet, as he wanted to see some decent velocity out of my 5" barrel. I also use 296 (H110 in my case) and get 1235 FPS out of my Smith. Accuracy is really good and my recovery time (splits) is excellent. I see no reason to change.

[MGySgt]

White Eagle those do look nice except that gas check shank. .

Talk to Tom at Accurate Arms - He will probably cut you the mould without the gas check shank or take the shank to full size.

[ColColt]

I've never had to face a Grizzly and don't want to but, I think I may feel comfortable with this bullet behind a healthy dose of 2400. One of Tom's best designs, IMHO. Weight is 260 gr using wheel weights.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF4160a.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF4160a.jpg.html)

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/43-260B-D.png (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/43-260B-D.png.html)