Which 1885 to buy? HELP!

[dmg4]

Hi,

I'm looking for an entry-level 1885 High Wall in .45-70. Thus far, the one produced by Cimarron Arms seems to my preferences and budget best. Is this a Uberti-based rifle? My other choices are Pedersoli, Uberti, Browning, and the new Winchester (Mikoru). It seems that many builders use the Uberti receiver, and some use Uberti barrels also. What are the relative merits of each of the above brands? Is there any significant improvement (or loss) from buying a current production model, vs one from say 5-10 years ago? Have the barrels improved on the Uberti rifles (there are several comments saying the barrels and chambers are a bit rough or oversized)? So many options, and so many questions!

[13Echo]

The Uberti and Pedersoli both have an Uberti action. The Pedersoli have the better barrel. I'm not sure who makes the Cimmaron but it will be one of those. Browining and Winchester are made in Japan and the action has a completely different and more complicated lock works. but usually a good barrel.

[dmg4]

Here's a link to the Cimarron 1885 I've been considering: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/single-shot-rifles-1/single-shot-rifles-model-1885/1885-high-wall-1/deluxe-model-1885-high-wall-sporting-rifle-hand-checkered-pistol-grip-45-70-30-in-ca8000.html

And a picture: 96985

[Boz330]

C-Sharps, it might be a little more but the quality is there. If you get a used one it will probably have a Badger barrel on it. Used would probably be in the same price range as the Italian's.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

The current crop of Winchesters are very fine rifles, not out of line in price with the Italians, which can be spotty on quality.
As Boz mentioned the C Sharps rifles are high quality, and will hold resale value.

[NSB]

dmg4, would you mind letting us know what you want to use the rifle for? Might sound like an odd question but there are different types of High Walls for different activities. Browning/Winchester/Miroku makes a couple of vesions such as the heavier, pistol grip BPCR model, a sporter model with shotgun butt stock, and I believe they make, or made, a curved butt plate model. The BPCR has a different barrel also. I have the sporter model with shotgun buttplate and straight stock. It shoots very, very well and makes a great hunting gun. It's probably the most accurate big bore rifle I've ever owned or shot. I don't shoot it at really long ranges but at 114yds (my camp deck to the firing line) it will shoot 1moa five shot groups with regularity and it does it with several different loads.

[oldred]

The Winchesters and Brownings are NOT THE SAME RIFLE as the others. They are similar in outward appearance only and are falling block actions (as is the Ruger no.1 for that matter) but the similarities end there, when considering which High Wall to buy you should consider the fact that the new Winchesters/Brownings are a completely different and modern action. I don't mean the actions are close but just not quite the same but rather they are a new design and much more complicated while the others retain the simplicity of the originals. Dis-assembly of the Winchester/Browning rifles while not particularly difficult is still a much bigger chore than the original designs due to the many small parts in a more complicated arrangement, both designs are strong and accurate and both are fine rifles (assuming from a quality manufacturer if an original design is chosen) and both have their attributes but it's a mistake to assume they are even close to being the same. Comparing the original designs such as a C Sharps, etc to the Winchester/Browning is sort of a case of comparing Apples to Oranges.


NSB, Your post was not up yet when I posted so in case my reply looks like I was disagreeing with you that's not the case at all, sorry about my timing.

[Gunlaker]

As old red says, the Winchester/browning 1885's have completely different internals. For that reason I prefer my C. sharps highwalls. However my Browning 1885 is very accurate. I'd put it right up there with my Shiloh. I've never had to disassemble mine, but would rather that it used the traditional design.

Chris.

[dmg4]

I'm aware that the internal mechanisms of the Mikoru rifles are not of the original J.M. Browning design, and I think there are some differences in the Uberti in use of coil vs flat springs. Winchesters are the only Mikoru rifles in current production. Browning no longer offers the 1885. There would seem to be more design similarity than differences in the case of Uberti and the original 1885, although the Uberti seemed to be lacking in execution of the design in the rough chamber and bores that were reported here. I'm not put off by the departure from the original design of the 1885, but I do care about reliability and performance, up to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. The price difference between a deluxe Winchester 1885 with tang sight and a comparably equipped C Sharps is substantial ($1200 vs $2200). That's not out of reach, but neither is it chicken feed in my section of the coop.

What do I intend to do with the rifle? Just shoot holes in paper purely for my own enjoyment out to about 300 yds. Possibly hunt some day. I will likely never compete in BPCR matches. Most of my shooting is at informal "fun shoots". I do compete seriously in NRA Sporterifle. I collect and restore WWI and WWII military rifles, pistols, and shotguns. I've got at least one of everything from the Allies, the Axis powers and the neutral countries. I don't mind recoil one bit. In fact, I like it. It's therapy.

[NSB]

dmg4, you're getting a rifle for about the same reasons I got mine. I do hunt with mine though on a regular basis. My range time is usually shooting off the deck at my camp to a firing line I built a little over a hundred yards away. I first thought about getting into silhouette shooting but kind of got away from that idea. I think you'd be very happy with the Miroku built Winchester version of this gun. Mine hasn't given me a minutes trouble since I got it almost two years ago and I've put quite a few rounds through it to date. It shoots great, the trigger is decent right out of the box and if you want it lighter, Lee Shaver can get it down to around 1.5lbs for around $35 and it's pretty easy to do. You don't even have to send him the gun, just part of the trigger assembly that's pretty easy to get out of the gun. Turn around time is also very quick and you can always put the old/original parts back in if you want to return it to it's original shape. It's also still pretty easy to find these guns for around eleven hundred bucks NIB. Good luck which ever way you go.

[Don McDowell]

I'm always puzzled by the complaints of the different internals of the new made Winchester/Browning 85's.. I mean seriously we could all go back to driving 1928 model A Fords too....
As to the reliability issue of the new 85's? Sort of a non starter, if you consider the thousands of rounds that those rifles used in bpcr competition go thru in a years time, if there were reliability, and breakage issues we'ld be hearing a lot about them.. and we don't.. I've got one of the bpcr Winchesters here that has been rode pretty hard for the last 4 years, and it just keeps right on shooting and shooting extremely well.

[oldred]

Don I think maybe you misunderstood, no one is complaining at all or knocking either design in any way it's just that some of us wanted to point out the differences so that the OP could make a more informed choice, turns out he was already well aware of these differences but some folks are not. I don't think I have ever heard anybody actually complain about the new High Walls, what's to complain about? They are fine rifles indeed and the changes to them was for improvement but the changes are of course so extensive that they have, for better or worse depending on what a person wants, become a completely different rifle and simply are not High Walls in the traditional sense, High Walls in their own right of course but still very different rifles.

[bigted]

on occasion I see the jap-chesters used for around 8 or 9 hundred. also I see the Uberti's for sale used for the same amount. NEVER seen a C Sharps 1885 that cheap ... even tho I feel they are probably the next best to having an original specimen. the original is the way I would go if I were looking in earnest for a Hiwall and then it WOULD be the rifle that started the 1885 craze. I see them in good shooting shape for around the 2 grand prices. if I were in the market for a Hiwall ... and I had a couple grand to spend ... or could raise that much ... even if a bit of pain were involved ... I would hold out for the original Winchester. this side of that ... I would opt for the new style Hiwall made in Japan as they ARE all that. not the same as original ... however in every way ... reliable and a good shooter as well as accurate. the Italians I think I would leave alone just because of the bad publicity they have had.

[dmg4]

I called "tech support" at Cimarron, and they are essentially buying Uberti in bulk, and this allows them to order certain frills and features that they want to offer exclusively to their customers. So, there are only cosmetic differences between Uberti and Cimarron. They are also back ordered at least 6 months. This is a salesman's 6 months, which means it could be 12. With the info at hand, I'm leaning toward the Winchester (assuming I want to spend $1100 and buy $1100 worth of ammo with my change), or the C Sharps (and NEVER tell my wife what it cost). I'll probably call C Sharps to inquire about time from order to delivery. I don't really relish waiting 12 months or more for a rifle.

[bigted]

get the price for the C Sharps and shop for an original Winchester for the same money. just a thought.

[NSB]

Don't forget to add the cost of a good set of iron sights......several hundred dollars more. Easily six or seven hundred....or more! If you get the Winchester you won't get off much cheaper if you scope it (it's drilled and tapped for a scope). Leupold makes the mounts for the Winchester, and add the cost of a scope and you're right up there again. It's always something.....

[dmg4]

I can shoot very well with iron sights, and I suspect the standard Marbles tang sight that comes with the Winchester would be adequate out to 300 yds if I changed out the front sight for a wider hooded post (about $45). I'd not put a scope on this rifle. I'll not be seriously competing with this rifle....just fun shoots. I do have a Winder Musket in .22 LR, so I am the proud owner of an original Winchester 1885, albeit a low wall. Maybe the thing to do would be to get the Winchester now, and get my order in for a C Sharps. Then I can shoot the Winchester now, and when the C Sharps is available I can sell the Winchester at a minimal loss. I've applied that logic several times before, which is why I own three M1 carbines, four 1903 Springfields, four 1917 Enfields, two Schmidt Rubins, etc. They just become part of the family and I can't say goodbye.

[Don McDowell]

There are a number of rifles on the rack and ready to go at C Sharps.. Look on their web site. http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-category/21/In-Stock-Gun-Gallery.html?page=1&product_category_id=21 Even if you do order, unless you add a whole bunch of extra's 3 months is probably about as long as it will take to get your rifle delivered.

[Boz330]

I bought a C-Sharps 23 years ago because it was just about the only replica available at the time. It was $900 at the time and that was a dear price for me but I made it work. It was my 1st Silhouette rifle as well although it wasn't bought for that originally. It has taken several deer with BP and given me many hours of enjoyment. I have never regretted the purchase. It wears an MVA scope now but then I can't see worth a damned anymore. Missing is only fun for a little while.
Mine is a 40-65, but in 45-70 you might want to go for a shotgun style stock for better enjoyment of the recoil if you buy something else.:roll:

Bob

[6.5 mike]

I have a C Sharps 1885 in 32-40 built in 2011. 3 weeks after placing the order it was at my ffl.

[Highwaller]

I ordered my C Sharps on Dec. 19th '13 and had it in hand 5 weeks later.
Have wanted an 1885 for many years and finally have it. Very pleases with
it. Just haven't been able to do much shooting with the lousy weather
lately.

[6.5 mike]

You are going to be real happy camper when you get a chance to shoot, Trust me,lol.

[dmg4]

Happy camper? Did you take a close look at Highwaller's avitar????97201

[6.5 mike]

Looks like my 2nd x-mother in law.

[dmg4]

I contacted C Sharps and the current time from order to delivery is 90 to 120 days. That's lightening-fast for a made-to-order gun. Still, the cost differential is substantial between the Winchester/Mikoru ($1200 out the door) and comparably stocked, sighted, and checkered high wall from C Sharps (quoted at $2600). The C Sharps is a great rifle, but then the Winchester seems pretty nice too.

Here's another question: Does the tang sight interfere with your grip to the same degree (or at all) on a straight stock vs one with a pistol grip?

[kokomokid]

Anyone know what barrel C-sharps is putting on the 1885 now? LB

[dmg4]

Badger barrels are used on the C Sharps rifles.

Back to that question: Does the tang sight interfere with your grip to the same degree (or at all) on a straight stock vs one with a pistol grip?

[Don McDowell]

Kokomo, CSA is using Badger if they still have them in stock, and Green Mountain on the rest.

dmg4, I don't notice any difference between the two as far as the tang sight goes.

[Bullshop Junior]

I would aim for a Wincheter or Browning. My dad had both and they were very nice rifles, and a 1885 in 45/110 is on my future wish list.

[Boz330]

Badger barrels are used on the C Sharps rifles.

Back to that question: Does the tang sight interfere with your grip to the same degree (or at all) on a straight stock vs one with a pistol grip?

It doesn't on my C-Sharps.
Badger barrels haven't been available for BPCR for awhile so unless C-Sharps had a stock pile I doubt they are still using them.

Bob

[bigted]

in my humble opinion ... YES ... the wrist mounted sights present a hand displacement for me that is both in the way for a good grip and a battering ram on the side of my thumb or web of my hand depending on which grip I choose.

I much prefer the full buckhorn rear sight and the blade front. however having said this ... I do not play at 8, 9, or 1000 yards ... I stay with 300 yds and under at this point.

I do have a few different vernier sights but except for my Italian sharps ... I use either scope or barrel sights.

I do see a difference between the pistol gripped stock and the straight stock as far as which is better for being in the way. I feel that my Browning 1885 BPCR with the pistol grip is a bit easier on my hand with the long range vernier installed then my Winchester 1885 with the straight wrist and the same sight.

as to barrels ... my older browning 1885 BPCR has a 1/2 octagon 1/2 round Badger barrel ... my Winchester Hunter model has a Japanese manufactured barrel on it. both seem to be very accurate and the only difference I see is the comfort of shooting the BPCR from rest compared to the much liter Winchester in the same fashion ... both being 45-70's.

[Gunlaker]

C. Sharps might have a few Badgers left. I think they had quite a few on hand. I bought the last #4 in .32-40 that they had on hand last year. My .38 #4 barreled rifle came with a Green Mountain.

Chris.

[armorer59]

My choice would be the C Sharps. Kick myself for letting go of my 1875 C Sharps!

[EDG]

The Browning BPCR is very easy on my hands. I have very large hands and I am use to most tang sighted rifles bothering me. The tang sight on the Browning does not bother me. For those rifles that bother you sometimes you can reverse the base to set the staff further forward. If the base and screws still bother you, you can cut the thumb and index finger off a thin buckskin glove and it will protect the web between the thumb and the forefinger. The remaining fingers with a soft thin leather glove will provide excellent grip on sharp checkering.

[dmg4]

Well, after hearing all opinions, checking the bank balances, and discussing the issues with our cat (good listener when she's hungry), I bought the Pedersoli 1885 High Wall shown below. It has a 32" barrel, single set trigger, a more user-friendly buttplate than the Winchester, somewhat fancy wood, and very nice checkering and a pistol grip. Fit and finish look first rate. A comparably-equipped C Sharps was far out of my reach. The Uberti barrels, at least those made before 2009, had a less-than-enviable reputation. Pedersoli does not use them, although the receiver is from Uberti. The Cimarrons appear to be Pedersoli with a mark-up. Brownings are no longer made, and they are too scarce to find, let alone buy. I'll need a tang sight and new front sight, but that can wait. My thanks to all that helped out. Your advice was sincerely appreciated. Now I need to find some more ammo, and wait for the snow to melt a bit. I'll report back before too long. 97386

[bigted]

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW RIFLE. you didn't say ... so Id guess that your new rifle is a 45-70. being that it remains cold out in your neck o woods ... may I suggest that you perform a couple tasks while you can so as to answer some important questions for yourself.

1- take a 50 or 54 cal pure lead ball ...[as in muzzleloader balls]... and after greasing the bore of your rifle barrel ... take a hammer and from the muzzle ... place the ball on the bore and lightly pound it into the barrel ... taking care to NOT hit the barrel directly ... after the lead is thin ... take a drift and punch it on into the bore. now take a wooden dowel and pound it thru the barrel ... taking care to notice if there be tight places in there and marking your wood rod in these places if they occur. take this "plug" of lead after it goes thru the barrel and carefully measure it both in the groove ...[high spots]... and the bore ...[low spots]... and mark these down on paper for future reference.

1-B- this measured ball will indicate what your rifle bore is gonna want to shoot correctly ... mostly with blackpowder.

2- take a loaded round and go someplace and shoot it ... maybe 2 or 3 just to be sure to have enough "fireformed" cases for this exercise. go inside outta the cold and slightly flair the mouth ... just enough to remove the remaining crimp that was on the brass. now take this fireformed case and measure the mouth of the case to discover what the throat desires as to a good smokeless powder diameter of boolit ...[either GG or patched]... and mark this down on the same paper for later reference.

2-B- this will tell what the diameter of boolit that will be perfect in your fireformed cases so as to create a condition that push's the bullet straight out the case without needing a "bump" for final diameter and the chance for gas cutting.

3- now take a case that has been fireformed and fill it with lead to within 1/2 inch of the mouth and let cool. go to the sporting goods store and get some soft lead wire ...[as in fishing weights]... in as large a diameter as can be found and take this "wire" and cut off a section that will protrude around 3 inch into the barrel after putting it into the lead filled case. now take this "loaded" lead filled case with the lead wire in it protruding up the barrel and close the action and put the rifle butt on the floor ... now take your wood rod that just fits into the bore and put it down on the wire lead and begin to tap gently but with purpose and compress the lead wire into the throat/leed area as well as the rifling beginning.

3-B- after pounding this into submission ...[you will know this as it will get 'bouncy' and solid at the same time]... take this "pounded" portrait/model of your chamber/leed area and study it to see where your case ends as compared to the rifling beginning ... also measure the diameter of this area to see what the max diameter is ... mark it down on your paper. KEEP this pounded chamber mold as future reference as well ... protect it as it will be fairly tender and you don't want "other" marks to be on it. if this didn't "fill out" completely ... pull with plyers ... the soft lead wire outta the case and begin again with the pound cast of your chamber ... finally getting a true cast of your chamber/leed area.

these are some things to do while you and your new friend are setting round waiting for the day when range time is prudent. these measurements are all very important for your rifle and will indicate the troubles encountered later on with your rifle. they will give important info on patching requirements as well as GG boolit measurements for the best accuracy for this rifle.

another thing to do is to get a proper disassembly diagram/description and take your new friend down to parade rest with all parts spread out for identification and proper cleaning and smoothing if necessary. also will make you more intimate with your rifle and allow you to be intimate with all the parts that make it go BANG.

again ... CONGRATULATIONS ... on a snappy rifle and with these new measurements you will take most of the mystery out of the requirements for accurate loading your new rifle. also if there are problems ... you will be able to identify them sooner then later and discover the "cure" to them before you ever fire a shot.

[winchester85]

i have an 1885 uberti in 348 winchester. i have a pedersoli tang sight on it. i have shot 5 shot groups at 100 yards that are under 2.5". not that great, but considering that i had to swing off the target to locate it and then back on to it to shoot, i think that is pretty good.

i have no complaints on the uberti, especially since i picked it up NEW for under $600. but then that was about 10 to 15 years ago.

[montana_charlie]

Now I need to find some more ammo, and wait for the snow to melt a bit. I'll report back before too long.
The things you said during the course of this thread made it clear that you are no neophyte waiting to be guided into a purchase. So, I am not surprised at your choice.

While waiting for weather, I suggest you slug the barrel and make a Cerrosafe cast (or impact model) of the chamber, so you know for sure what internal topography you need to satisfy (before trimming any metal off of new cases).
For the barrel slugging, I recommend you tap one slug a half-inch into the muzzle, then back out ... and one into the rear inch at the breech end, and back out.

Comparing the two will show if there is any taper in the groove diameter, which Pedersoli has been said to put in their barrels.
The slug from the breech end will also help nail down the optimum bullet diameter for the gun.

If you see any surprises in the chamber length, say so.

CM

[dmg4]

Thanks everyone. I ordered a 1/2 lb block of Cerrocast today. The .50 cal lead balls come in packs of 100, so I'll have a few spares. Oak dowels I have up the whazoo (ouch!). I have a newly-acquired 1888 Trapdoor Springfield that introduced me to the .45-70. The Highwall should arrive in about a week.

[bigted]

LOL ... :roll: ... in the "what its worth" dept. ... those 100 round balls of 50 caliber will not go to wast as when you are good n hooked ... you will be slugging more rifles then you thought possible. first a cheaper trapdoor, then the Hiwall, next who knows ... Sharps, Rollers, levers, custom boltguns ??? ... :drinks: ... [smilie=1: ... just sayin !

[dmg4]

Next batch of questions: Why the preference for a tang-mounted sight for precision long-range shots? Does anyone use a receiver or mid-barrel ladder to accomplish the same? Were such sights ever used on the big-bore High Walls? I can understand the advantage of the longer sight radius of the tang over the mid-barrel, but not for a receiver-mount.

My 1885 Low Wall (Winder Musket .22LR military trainer) wears an original issue receiver sight. It is butt ugly, but robust and functional, and it does not interfere with your grip.

[bigted]

first off ... what is your "long range" shots look like in yards? I use the barrel sights to good advantage with my rifles that I pack around ... but then they rarely get shot at much longer then 100 to 200 yards ... so my full buckhorn rear and blade front do very well for me.

if truly LONG range ... as in 600 + yards then I certainly would want a good peep style sight and then I would opt for a wrist mounted vernier that is windage adjustable as your action mounted receiver sight will just not get you out that far.

I have the vernier sights for my rifles but ... I don't use em till I decide to go see where my shots will go out past my self imposed 200 yds ... then I would never shoot any of my 45-70 loads at the 200 yard distance as I do not feel like I can place my shots directly on target every time at these yardages for the sure kill shots I desire on game. these shots are more likely to be around 100 yards as I feel that if I can not get up to 100 yards with my rainbow shooter ... then I better practice my woods craft some more.

[Gunlaker]

With a ladder sight you lose sight radius. Some can use then effectively but not me. I think most receiver sights generally don't have enough elevation for longer ranges. Another factor is repeat ability and precision. With a vernier scale it's easy to move the sight a hundredth on an inch ( actually better if you read between the lines ), and have a huge elevation range.

Chris.

[dmg4]

I doubt I will use this rifle for hunting. That's a serious business, and I'd opt for something more likely to result in a humane kill in my hands. That would NOT be a .45-70 with a tang sight.

This rifle will be punching holes in paper, ringing gongs, and knocking down reactive targets out to about 300 yds (bowling pins, etc). I'll not be entering any BPCR matches.

Buckhorn sights are too fuzzy for accurate shooting for me, and have been for about 10 years now. I can use them if I wear an aperture on my shooting glasses, but I really prefer an aperture rear sight. With an aperture sight, anything within 300 yds of me and 6" in diameter will be hit most ever time.

It sounds like a tang mounted aperture may be my only practical option, given the loopy trajectory of the .45-70, even at 300 yds. Correct?

[NSB]

I doubt I will use this rifle for hunting. That's a serious business, and I'd opt for something more likely to result in a humane kill in my hands. That would NOT be a .45-70 with a tang sight.

This rifle will be punching holes in paper, ringing gongs, and knocking down reactive targets out to about 300 yds (bowling pins, etc). I'll not be entering any BPCR matches.

Buckhorn sights are too fuzzy for accurate shooting for me, and have been for about 10 years now. I can use them if I wear an aperture on my shooting glasses, but I really prefer an aperture rear sight. With an aperture sight, anything within 300 yds of me and 6" in diameter will be hit most ever time.

It sounds like a tang mounted aperture may be my only practical option, given the loopy trajectory of the .45-70, even at 300 yds. Correct?
Correct about everything except the humane kills. I think you'd find the 45-70 is more than humane. I've shot seven deer in the last three years with several different 45-70 rifles and they all either fell where they stood or went less than twenty yards before falling over dead. FYI, I've harvested over 150 whitetails over the last 52 years and the 45-70 is as effective as anything I've ever used and more effective than most of the things I've used. It makes a very big hole completely through the animal, sideways or lengthways. You'll never recover a bullet on a deer.

[montana_charlie]

Next batch of questions: Why the preference for a tang-mounted sight for precision long-range shots?
Your answer is present within your question.
Because that type of sight provides the greatest degree of precision obtainable without going to a scope.

CM

[dmg4]

"Correct about everything except the humane kills."

I was perhaps unclear. The key phrase is "in my hands". I'd have more confidence in my own ability if I was using a scoped 30.06 than if I relied on a .45-70 with a tang sight. I agree that anything that could drop a bison would likely anchor a deer. But, there's no question that I shoot better with a scoped rifle, and range estimation is less of a factor with a flatter-shooting round. To each his own.

[Highwaller]

dmg4, 6.5mike- In response to your posts- I don't know how I could be any happier with the rifle. I finally got out yesterday morning to do the break-in/sight-in routine. The folks at C Sharps recommend using jword loads for the break-in. Its a Badger Bbl chambered for .444 Marlin. Forty rounds and 4 1/2 hrs later I was tickled spitless. Shot five shot groups throughout the process. The groups were not at all impressive in the beginning, but i didn't expect them to be with each round coming from a clean dry bore. They had improved greatly by group number 8. I think it was a combination of the lapping and me getting a feel for how she likes to be cuddled. The last group was about 2.5 MOA. As soon as the new lathe gets here and I make the mold for PP boolits I look for that to evolve into much tighter groups. Gonna be fun.
As for the Avatar---sometimes that's just how I feel!