Powder cop or lock out die?

[BD]

I just traded in my old Pro-Jector for a new LNL AP press, primarily so I could load small primer cartridges progressively, (I never had the small primer parts for the Pro-Jector). Right off the bat I can see that I'm going to need some kind of powder check die if I'm going to load light .38 specials and .357s. There is just no way I can see 3.5 grains of Bullseye in a .38 sp case. I didn't get anywhere with the search function on this question. Has anyone used both the powder cop die and the lock out die enough to have a strong opinion on which is a better choice?
BD

[ReloaderFred]

I use the lockout die on my LNL. It stops everything if the powder drop isn't really close, or is missing or doubled. The powder cop die depends on you watching for the mark on the movable stem, but the lockout die just stops the press, and to me that's one less thing I have to watch. My standard powder drop is 3.4 gr. of Bullseye for my SASS loads, and I load them by the thousands on the LNL. The lockout die works great with that charge.

I also mounted the light strip kit offered by Hornady. What a difference that made! I wish I'd done it years ago, but then they didn't have LED light strips years ago..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Guardian]

I've got the powder cop die and rarely use it. As Fred pointed out, you have to look at it every stroke. I find looking in the case easier than looking up to see the powder cop die. My eyes are already on the shellplate watching the proceedings.

I haven't used the lockout die, but being a passive system (not requiring your direct input) it seems like a better idea. I wish I'd gone that route.

[williamwaco]

I have the powder cop. It works fine but if I were doing it again, I would get the lockout.

[cheese1566]

lockout for pistol....powder cop for rifle

[KYCaster]

Allow me to offer a different point of view.

I really dislike powder check dies. I've used them extensively on Dillon 650's and 1050's while working for a commercial reloader. Even when well adjusted, they give quite a few false alarms. Whether consciously or not, it becomes very easy to ignore the alarm if, for some reason, it gives an unusual number of false alarms. When that happens, the alarm is no better than no alarm at all. I've seen it happen and I've had to struggle with it myself......and when you're doing piece work it can really cut into your pay.

How can things like that happen?...............I just weighed two 38spl cases.........one with WCC84 headstamp that weighs 75.7 gr. and the other is a R-P wadcutter case, it weighs 68.0 gr.. That's a difference of 7.7 gr., more than double your 3.5 gr. of BE powder charge.

If you set your powder check die so it will accept 3.4 gr. in the WCC84 case then what will it say to a 7.0 gr. charge in the R-P case? I really don't know because I haven't bothered to check it. Have you? (I gotta admit, I picked the cases for the maximum weight difference just to make a point, but that doesn't invalidate the point.)

I will not put a bullet in a case without first visually checking the powder charge.......WILL NOT do it! Is that more reliable or more accurate than a powder check die? I really don't know for sure, but I weigh the powder charge at regular intervals and I trust the powder measure more than I trust the powder check die.

One of the things I really like about the Hornady LNL press vs. Dillon's is the fact that, on the LNL, the station where you seat the bullet is at the front of the press, not at the back like Dillon's. With most handgun cartridges you can easily see the powder charge before you set the bullet on the case......but you had to go and pick one of the exceptions, a tall skinny case with a miniscule powder charge. Not a problem......at the third station, where you'd normally put the powder check die....leave it empty and when you raise the ram you can easily see into the case........works for everything I load, including 357 Mag, .223 and 308 Win.

Way back in Quality Control 101, we learned that with any kind of statistical sampling, we have to accept a certain number of failures. The big question is, how many failures am I willing to accept and how can I reduce the number of failures that occur?
I've found that my eye sight is more reliable than the powder check systems I've used.

Jerry

[Moonman]

I use a Lock-Out Die, as the Powder Cop Die, REQUIRES YOU TO WATCH IT.

There is a video by ULTIMATERELOADER on HOW TO QUICKLY

SET-UP THE LOCK-OUT DIE.

On my LNL Press I also use a SKYLIGHT from INLINEFABRICATION. (Good Stuff).

[JASON4X4]

I have both and use the lock out every time. Set it and forget it till it stops the press

[denul]

Who makes each of these dies?

[Moonman]

Lock-out die = RCBS

Powder Cop = Hornady

[rpludwig]

Load primarily light 38 spcl and 45 acp, lock-out die for me, wouldn't load without it, AND good lighting to eyeball each case...never a problem...highly recommend...

[dudel]

Used them in the past; but no longer. It's a mechanical device which can fail. Good lighting, concentration and Mark 1 eyeballs work best for me. Reloading is not supposed to be a mindless activity where you just pull the crank.

[Moonman]

MECHANICAL DEVICES can fail but I'll bet peoples loss of CONCENTRATION
or FOCUS, even just for a second happens at a far greater rate than a mechanical device.
JMHO

[Bonz]

First I bought and tried the RCBS Lock-Out die. It really sucks when it hangs up the press and hangs up a little when the powder level is close to out of range. After several thousand loads, I decided to buy and try the Hornady COP die. Its very cheaply made and not very flexible or adjustable. Difficult to see the small powder loads, like 3.0gr. Finally, I disassembled the RCBS Lock-Out die and removed the steel balls; that stops the die from locking out the press. So now I just use it to view powder levels by watching the rod.

[Moonman]

Bonz,

Sounds to me that YOUR Lock-Out Die was incorrectly adjusted
or your POWDER MEASURE is not consistent enough.

Watch ULTIMATERELOADER'S video on the QUICK SET-UP
of the Lock-Out Die.

Works for me, and I wouldn't load on my LNL-AP without it.

[Bonz]

Bonz,

Sounds to me that YOUR Lock-Out Die was incorrectly adjusted
or your POWDER MEASURE is not consistent enough.

Watch ULTIMATERELOADER'S video on the QUICK SET-UP
of the Lock-Out Die.

Works for me, and I wouldn't load on my LNL-AP without it.

Also loading on a Hornady LNL and I would admit that the powder measure varies powder quite a bit. I double-check weights on a RCBS 1010 and can see that the charges are inconsistent. And that is the reason that I am using some type of powder check. Really sucks that the powder check die took the place of my bullet feeder, I miss it a lot :-(

Also, this is a 2nd hornady powder measure and its just as inaccurate as the original that came with my press

[Moonman]

Bonz,

I find the Hornady Powder Measures are very ACCURATE, if not it's probably
the POWDER TYPE you're using.

I even put a Hornady measure on my DILLON.

Also DO YOU HAVE THE HANDGUN ROTOR INSTALLED?

Some people have problems with inconsistent charge weights
because they are doing smaller handgun charges with the LARGER
RIFLE ROTOR in the measure.

[ReloaderFred]

KYCaster and others,

The Lockout Die doesn't weigh the charges, as you seem to believe. It merely measures the volume of the given powder charge, or more correctly, the height of the column of powder. There is no actual weight adjustment involved with the die, just the distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the powder. If there's too little powder, it stops the press. If there's too much powder, it stops the press. If there's no powder, it stops the press. There are no visual or audible alarms involved.

It's about as simple as it could be made, and it works.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bonz]

Bonz,

I find the Hornady Powder Measures are very ACCURATE, if not it's probably
the POWDER TYPE you're using.

I even put a Hornady measure on my DILLON.

Also DO YOU HAVE THE HANDGUN ROTOR INSTALLED?

Some people have problems with inconsistent charge weights
because they are doing smaller handgun charges with the LARGER
RIFLE ROTOR in the measure.

Yes, I have the handgun rotor installed. I followed the instructions on both Hornady powder measures as far as the initial cleaning with the Hornady OneShot Clean & Lube spray. I even removed the paint from one of the powder measure inside and it seems to be better than the other. I also has some Pyrex tubes made to replace the acrylic ones that come with originally. I fitted one of them with the Pyrex glass tube and had to buy/use a smaller baffle because of the thickness of the Pyrex. That seemed to be a huge improvement until I knocked over the powder measure and broke the Pyrex glass tube on the concrete floor. I need to switch back to the Pyrex tube again to determine if I truly get better accuracy with that. One thing that I noticed is that the powder charge changes as the powder level goes down in the acrylic tube, don't notice that on the Pyrex glass tube

[Moonman]

Bonz,

Does your ROTOR MAKE A FULL STROKE?
Clicking when it hits the top of the slot and the bottom.

Powder charge could vary slightly with the depth of the powder
inside the tube. (sheer weight of the powder column).

i keep my measures some what full, I don't fill them
and run till about empty.

I also use a CLEAR PLASTIC SHEET PROTECTOR cut
to fit and line the inside of the powder tube.
No powder chemical induced tube discoloration.

[Randy C]

I have the RCBS lock out and powder check die they both work great, I still use my eye to check in a pinch, they will have powder stick to them a little and it will fall on your shell plate from time to time, hit it with a can of air and keep on loading.

[BD]

I really appreciate the responses, and I think I've learned enough to answer my original question.
I did manage to load 120,000 rounds of .45acp on the old Pro-Jector before trading it in by looking into each case as it passes by. I like that approach. However, no matter how I tilt my head, there is no way I can see into a .38 sp case loaded with bullseye unless I remove it from the shell plate and tilt it toward me. That technique negates the value of using a progressive press, so I need to find a way around it. I think I'll try the lock out die and see how I feel about it.
Thanks for your help!
BD

[Moonman]

BD,

Make sure to go to ULTIMATERELOADER VIDEO (Google)
about the QUICK SET-UP of the RCBS Lock-Out Die.

It's saved people a lot of wasted time fiddlin' with it.

Part 1 on the theory and Part 2 the operation and set-up.

[Bonz]

Bonz,

Does your ROTOR MAKE A FULL STROKE?
Clicking when it hits the top of the slot and the bottom.

I stop it right before the stem of the metering rod hits the top of the slot. I read somewhere that you should never allow it to "whack" the top of the slop because, in time, that will damage the metering rod and\or rotor

[Moonman]

Bonz,

Google Videos on Hornady LNL-AP HINTS AND TRICKS by
Bill Morgan, a great 5 part series.

One video Deals with the POWDER MEASURE SET-UP.

And YOU DO MAKE IT HIT THE TOP OF THE SLOT.

That Click/Bump at the top helps with POWDER CHARGE CONSISTENCY.

Watch his videos and he'll show you CHARGING TO WITHIN 1/10 OR RIGHT ON CHARGES.

[Bonz]

Bonz,

Google Videos on Hornady LNL-AP HINTS AND TRICKS by
Bill Morgan, a great 5 part series.

One video Deals with the POWDER MEASURE SET-UP.

And YOU DO MAKE IT HIT THE TOP OF THE SLOT.

That Click/Bump at the top helps with POWDER CHARGE CONSISTENCY.

Watch his videos and he'll show you CHARGING TO WITHIN 1/10 OR RIGHT ON CHARGES.

Found the videos, thanks MoonMan ! I'll review them and try his suggestions to see if that resolves my issues. Greatly appreciated !

[ROGER4314]

I have BOTH of the devices and use neither one of them. They work fine ad do exactly as they are designed to do. I do NOT like the way they collect powder gains and drop the flakes/balls/extrusions onto the shell plates and finally to the primer seat station. Soon, you begin to get deformed primers. I keep a small air compressor near my presses and use the air to keep the press free of powder. I stopped using both of them.

Instead of the powder sensors, I set a mirror up so I can see the powder level in the case. I am a fanatic about safety and don't mind slowing production down to make sure the charge is present in the right amount. Visually, I can tell immediately if the charge is wrong.

Flash

[KYCaster]

KYCaster and others,

The Lockout Die doesn't weigh the charges, as you seem to believe. It merely measures the volume of the given powder charge, or more correctly, the height of the column of powder. There is no actual weight adjustment involved with the die, just the distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the powder. If there's too little powder, it stops the press. If there's too much powder, it stops the press. If there's no powder, it stops the press. There are no visual or audible alarms involved.

It's about as simple as it could be made, and it works.

Hope this helps.

Fred



Fred, I understand how powder check dies work.

My point is......the internal volume of cartridge brass can easily vary by more than twice the volume of the powder charge you're using. The OP's 3.5 gr. of BE in a 38Spl case is probably the worst case of this situation that I can imagine.

Is this likely to cause a problem? No, not likely, but it is a possibility. That's why I mentioned it.

Having loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds on presses using Dillon powder check dies, I can say, without doubt that they are not infallible. Maybe the Hornady and RCBS systems are more accurate than Dillon....I really don't know, but I choose to trust my eye, rather than the powder check die.

As always YMMV.
Jerry

[jmorris]

Even when well adjusted, they give quite a few false alarms.

If it is sounding falsely it is not properly adjusted.

[Digger]

quite a while back , didn't have the resources or time available to pick up a powder cop die retail .....
contemplated what I had laying around my reloading room and came up with a home made version.
While not as precise as the commercial pieces , it fulfills my needs perfectly ... for loading rifle ..
All it cost was the price of a small aluminum screw/bolt at Ace hardware and a small pipe fitting , a little bit of elbow grease and we were on our way ...
If I repeated the process again , could refine it further but it fell into the category of "keep it simple"
Link over to an older thread ....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176098-Home-made-powder-cop-die

[gunoil]

fill the hole with bullet drop die.