Lubing core question prompts

[Danth]

Enjoyed the thread on lubing cores as I too questioned if this step was necessary. Thanks for all the input. This topic has prompted me to ask another. Sometimes the nose of my bullets are nearly fully closed and somtimes not. I weight the cores prior to swaging, so I presume they are ok. The 22lr jackets are of the same manufacturer. Do you think this may be the result of my not lubing the jackets prior to de-rimming?

[runfiverun]

it could be.
the core does fill the case, the little bit more or less core volume can make a difference.
it could also be a smidgen of case length difference.

[Scootshop]

What weight bullet are you making. If my jackets ave say 10gr I use 42gr core and end up with a 52gr hollow tip. I then inspect em and weigh fin product. Out of a 100 I get a couple with lead up to the tip. When you seat your cores do you have the same amount of space from core to top of jacket?

[Danth]

Haven't measured them. I will do that next.

[Zymurgy50]

Variables anywhere along the line will result in different shaped tips in the same batch. When I derim I dump all the cases into an ice cream tub and add a drop or two of swage lube, then seal the bucket and tumble for a few minutes to evenly spread the lube. this lessens the different lengths of jackets from drawing stresses. I cast cores slightly overweight in an adjustable mold and swage them in the same way, all cores in a tub, apply lube and tumble to spread evenly. The cores will take much less lube than de-rimming. All the cores for the batch I am working on will be swaged at one sitting without removing or adjusting the dies once they are set.

Then I can take a micrometer or caliper and sort jackets by length, some will still stretch more than others. Seat the cores to expand the jacket to final diameter. When it is finally time for point forming try to set up a good rhythm, small temperature changes in the bullets or the PF die can cause tips to vary wildly. You also might want to back off the point a bit, not closing the point too tight can help a bit here too.

[fredj338]

I think it's mostly jacket length. Measure them, they very quite a bit.

[runfiverun]

something else I thought about.
the way you operate the handle can quite often have an effect on the outcome too.
I have tried a stop/go and a smooth all the way through to the end motion.
the smooth consistent steady stroke made much better bullets but with more noticeable defects.
the stop/go made fewer defects but not as good quality overall.

[BT Sniper]

How tightly the nose closes could also depend on consistency of the anneal process. It is easier to close up a case that is harder (less annealed) as it resists being compressed while point forming, yet it is likely to fold over when using 22lr brass for jackets. Brass that is too soft has potential for more open tips as they may tend to compress a bit. This is just a possible scenario, or hypothesis, yet I have noticed this on occasion.

BT

[Smokin7mm]

Enjoyed the thread on lubing cores as I too questioned if this step was necessary. Thanks for all the input. This topic has prompted me to ask another. Sometimes the nose of my bullets are nearly fully closed and somtimes not. I weight the cores prior to swaging, so I presume they are ok. The 22lr jackets are of the same manufacturer. Do you think this may be the result of my not lubing the jackets prior to de-rimming?

I would highly recommend you use lube when derimming. I think you will start damaging your die (scratches etc). As in core seating and pressure giving you a different length core I think you would be varying your finish jacket length due to inconsistant pressures required to derimmwhich in turn would give you varying results on point forming. I don't run anything through any of my dies without lube.

Bret

[Prospector Howard]

This keeps coming up over and over. Different length jackets and different looking meplats, why? The Federal cases are harder to derim, and I'm getting alot of punch throughs, why? I'll try to explain this one more time. The MAIN reason you're getting different length jackets, and then you get different looking meplats because of the different length jackets is because the cases are stretching different amounts due to the varying thicknesses of the cases. The heavier ones are thicker, what a concept. Now, if you use a derim punch that completely removes the line near the base on the thinner lighter ones that are in the 9.5 gr weight category like Rem and Win, that means that there is no room left between the wall off the case and the punch. Now, you use that same derim punch with the thicker heavier cases like Fed and CCI, those cases are going to STREEEEETCH!!!! Wow, imagine that. Now, I know that there are Fed cases that are in the 9.5 gr weight category, so they need to be weighed ahead of time and segregated. That is why it is important to use a derim punch that is slightly smaller by about 2 thousandths for the thicker heavier cases if you want to get more consistent lengths of your jackets, and then more consistent meplats. Also Scootshop, that is why the 10.5 gr Federal cases are harder to get through the derim die, same with the CCI's. They're thicker and you're crushing the things through the die and it has to stretch because the metal has to go somewhere when there is no room between the punch and the case. I know that the manufacturers of dies seem to ignore these basic engineering facts and only want to supply one derim punch to their cutomers, but ignoring these facts; won't make them go away. Then the new swagers start having problems, and we get to see the same questions over and over. Also, you never derim without lube.

[Danth]

I use cases from the same manufacture for each batch of bullets. Upon going thru multiple batches, I see the largest variance in point closure is with Federal brass. Per the recommendations above, I will start measuring and weighing cases prior to derimming and will use lube. I think my annealing process is fairly consistent as I use a heat treating oven with temp. control. Incidently, the most consistent bullets I've produced are with SuperX. I've used CCI, Federal, Remington, Winchester and U.

[alfloyd]

Federal 22LR shells/cases are made in 2 different plants. One is in Idaho, CCI plant, and the other is back East.
Therefor there will be a difference in the Federal cases.

Lafaun

[reed1911]

Federal 22LR shells/cases are made in 2 different plants. One is in Idaho, CCI plant, and the other is back East.
Therefor there will be a difference in the Federal cases.

It is information like this that seems so useless to know until you find a conversation like this, then it makes you feel like genius.

edit: Hope that comes across right, it was meant as a compliment.

[303british.com]

I think this should be put into a sticky. Maybe it already is. :)

For the people that sort CCI/Federal cases, and then sort these again by weight, you might find that these thicker cases are better suited to lighter bullets.

I use a smaller punch and do not have the problems of hard derimming that is reported by others. The resistance problem using std .199 diameter punches feels worse and is physically harder if you are using a traditional press like a Rock Chucker, Lee or Redding. It's a lot of physical labour pushing the cases through the die with those presses because of the leverage. You might be able to solve this by stress relieving the cases before you derim them. That works for some people. For me, it was easier turning down the punch.


This keeps coming up over and over. Different length jackets and different looking meplats, why? The Federal cases are harder to derim, and I'm getting alot of punch throughs, why? I'll try to explain this one more time. The MAIN reason you're getting different length jackets, and then you get different looking meplats because of the different length jackets is because the cases are stretching different amounts due to the varying thicknesses of the cases. The heavier ones are thicker, what a concept. Now, if you use a derim punch that completely removes the line near the base on the thinner lighter ones that are in the 9.5 gr weight category like Rem and Win, that means that there is no room left between the wall off the case and the punch. Now, you use that same derim punch with the thicker heavier cases like Fed and CCI, those cases are going to STREEEEETCH!!!! Wow, imagine that. Now, I know that there are Fed cases that are in the 9.5 gr weight category, so they need to be weighed ahead of time and segregated. That is why it is important to use a derim punch that is slightly smaller by about 2 thousandths for the thicker heavier cases if you want to get more consistent lengths of your jackets, and then more consistent meplats. Also Scootshop, that is why the 10.5 gr Federal cases are harder to get through the derim die, same with the CCI's. They're thicker and you're crushing the things through the die and it has to stretch because the metal has to go somewhere when there is no room between the punch and the case. I know that the manufacturers of dies seem to ignore these basic engineering facts and only want to supply one derim punch to their cutomers, but ignoring these facts; won't make them go away. Then the new swagers start having problems, and we get to see the same questions over and over. Also, you never derim without lube.

[Chuck Walla]

Good post prospector, thanks. I had my friend get on here and read your post earlier this week. He was having some of these same problems and couldn't quite figure it out. I just got back from his place and he showed me how he sanded one of his punches down a few thousandths and bingo: problems solved. He says thanks too. I agree with .303, it should be a sticky.
This keeps coming up over and over. Different length jackets and different looking meplats, why? The Federal cases are harder to derim, and I'm getting alot of punch throughs, why? I'll try to explain this one more time. The MAIN reason you're getting different length jackets, and then you get different looking meplats because of the different length jackets is because the cases are stretching different amounts due to the varying thicknesses of the cases. The heavier ones are thicker, what a concept. Now, if you use a derim punch that completely removes the line near the base on the thinner lighter ones that are in the 9.5 gr weight category like Rem and Win, that means that there is no room left between the wall off the case and the punch. Now, you use that same derim punch with the thicker heavier cases like Fed and CCI, those cases are going to STREEEEETCH!!!! Wow, imagine that. Now, I know that there are Fed cases that are in the 9.5 gr weight category, so they need to be weighed ahead of time and segregated. That is why it is important to use a derim punch that is slightly smaller by about 2 thousandths for the thicker heavier cases if you want to get more consistent lengths of your jackets, and then more consistent meplats. Also Scootshop, that is why the 10.5 gr Federal cases are harder to get through the derim die, same with the CCI's. They're thicker and you're crushing the things through the die and it has to stretch because the metal has to go somewhere when there is no room between the punch and the case. I know that the manufacturers of dies seem to ignore these basic engineering facts and only want to supply one derim punch to their cutomers, but ignoring these facts; won't make them go away. Then the new swagers start having problems, and we get to see the same questions over and over. Also, you never derim without lube.