.690 round ball

[hatcreek]

I got my .690 LEE round ball mold today, couldn't wait and braved the cold and went to the garage and cast 12 lead marbles, I would like to load the balls in a 2 3/4" Cheddie hull, in a 12s3 fed or aa12 win white wad with a .125 20ga nitro card under ball, i have Herco or Blue dot for powders, I'm thinking 27gr to 31 of herco, and 40 to 42 blue dot, what do you fine folks think or suggest? I loaded a dummy round and the ball fit fine in both wads and sat in the hull perfectly, and they chambered great, any advise would be great. Thanks. HC Oh yeah i will be using a 870 with a 20" rifle barrel.

[FullTang]

I got my .690 LEE round ball mold today, couldn't wait and braved the cold and went to the garage and cast 12 lead marbles, I would like to load the balls in a 2 3/4" Cheddie hull, in a 12s3 fed or aa12 win white wad with a .125 20ga nitro card under ball, i have Herco or Blue dot for powders, I'm thinking 27gr to 31 of herco, and 40 to 42 blue dot, what do you fine folks think or suggest? I loaded a dummy round and the ball fit fine in both wads and sat in the hull perfectly, and they chambered great, any advise would be great. Thanks. HC Oh yeah i will be using a 870 with a 20" rifle barrel.
I'd definitely go with the Herco and the 12S3 wads; the range for the charge sounds excellent, and should be plenty potent, but I think you'll get a better, cleaner powder burn than you would with the Blue Dot, plus it's more economical. Herco will also work better and more consistently with a standard, non-magnum primer (esp in the cold). I think the Federal wads really stand up to these big loads well, and they have a much better fit in straight-wall hulls like Cheds, so you won't get much powder migration (you will with the WAA12 wads in the thin-walled Cheddite hulls.) If you've never shot these before, you're in for some fun! 31 grains of Herco should get these big balls going around 1350 fps. You will definitely know you have shot something! I like to use big, thick chunks of wood for targets when I shoot the .69 RBs, and delight in the shower of splinters with every shot.

[hatcreek]

Thanks FullTang, do you think I should fold crimp or roll? I currently load the .575 round ball in a trap commander wad, cheddie hull with blue dot and herco, 20ga 870 20inch rifle barrel, great results, love those fat round balls. regards. HC

[longbow]

My suggestion is to check a loading manual for a published recipe. Since I have not used Herco, I can't comment on the load but Blue Dot has been one of my favourite powders for slugs so far and the range you suggest IIRC is within safe limits depending on hull and primer choices.

All I can add about the Blue Dot load at present (without digging up manuals) is that I have a published recipe from Precision rifle using a 610 gr. slug over up to 44 grs. of Blue Dot in "any straight walled hull". A little vague about components but pressure was 12,500 PSI. A little steep for my liking but I was loading 580 grs. ball and using only 38 grs. of Blue Dot. Even at that recoil got my attention.

Seriously, you need a reloading manual for slug loading. Reloading shotgun shells is not like reloading for metallic cartridge. you do not get reliable pressure signs like flattened primers or sticky extraction until you are in the danger zone.

Load data should be taken from a loading manual with minimal if any substitutions. Wads I don't worry about too much but hulls and primers can change pressure by several thousand PSI even if everything else is the same. So the same load recipe as in the manual with simply a primer substitution could raise load pressure by up to 3000 PSI. If the load pressure is only 8,000 PSI no problem but if it is 11,000 PSI...

Shotgun primers and hulls are not created equal.

Longbow

[FullTang]

Thanks FullTang, do you think I should fold crimp or roll? I currently load the .575 round ball in a trap commander wad, cheddie hull with blue dot and herco, 20ga 870 20inch rifle barrel, great results, love those fat round balls. regards. HC
I do both, depending on my mood and the intended use. A roll crimp may be more accurate, and it lets you adjust the stack height pretty easily, while the fold crimp is quicker to do in large numbers. The conventional wisdom is that roll crimp loads actually have lower pressures than fold, so you can always substitute a roll for a fold (though perhaps not vice versa.) I always roll with an overshot card, usually a clear plastic disk---gives a really neat looking shell. Fold crimps get torn up on firing RBs, so I usually use my "throw-away" hulls for that, something like Fed Top Guns.

Also, most folks do cut the wad petals back below the mid-line of the RB, because the overall diameter of these RBs in a shotcup is overbore.

Another method that's been mentioned here is using BPI's "brush wads"; these are Gualandi plastic wads which have a nice gas seal and relatively short cushion section, but no shot cup:
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Original-Brush-Wad-12ga-250_bag/productinfo/072BW12/
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/12ga-Flex-Seal-Wad-250_bag/productinfo/072FS12/
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Light-Brush-Wad-12ga-250_bag/productinfo/072LB12/
The LB12 can be loaded with the ball sitting right in the cup, so nothing could be easier. The FS12 with a 1/2" fiber cushion wad on top, then the RB is the most accurate load I've found; the fiber cushion wad (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Fiber-Cushion-Filler-Wad-1_2/productinfo/FC/) cups the ball nicely, and this even works well in a rifled barrel. Downside is that published loads for these are hard to find, though light loads are great, without pushing any limits.

[hatcreek]

Thanks longbow, any suggestions on a reload manual, i have the Lymans 5th, and BPI's Advantages 5th. HC

[longbow]

Well, there are probably lots as good or better out there but I have:

- 3 Lyman Shotshell Reloading manuals of various editions
- Reloading for Shotgunners ~ a very good manual in my opinion
- BPI Slug Loading Manual
- BPI loading bulletins for: 0.690" round ball, shuttlecock, AQ slug and a couple others
- Hercules Powder reloading manual
- Alliant Powder reloading manual
- Federal Ammunition reloading manual
- several posted pressure tested loads from a variety of sources

The Lyman manuals aren't bad and especially the later versions that include Brenneke, Lyman sabot slug and round ball loads. Reloading for Shotgunners shows multiple powder charge load data for most components along with pressures for each powder charge so you know what you are working with. I do not mind making a substitution that may increase pressure if I know I am working with an 8000 PSI load rather than an 11,000 PSI load. this applies more to the birdshot recipes than slug recipes but does make for easy comparisons and substitutions if loading to equivalent weight (most useful for loading heavy slugs of over 600 grs. where load data is scarce).

I was quite disappointed in the BPI Slug manual as the component choices are very limited. I think their bulletins are more use.

If I had to choose one of the above, Reloading for Shotgunners would be it. However, since I live where there is little to no local selection of components I need a variety of info to be able to cross reference to find compatible data for what I can get. I do not think a guy can have too much shotshell and slug reloading data because of the variety of components available and the limited load data most manuals show.

I wish there was a cheap and easy way to work up loads and check pressures but a Piezo system is about it as far as I know.

Longbow

[hatcreek]

Longbow, I use 2 3/4" cheddie hulls with the cheddie primer, I love blue dot, its what I use for my .525 lyman slug. I understand that blue dot does not like cold weather, on a deer hunt in December i had a doe come in about 50yards out, I put the cross hairs on her shoulder and pull the trigger, all I got was a poof, needless to say the deer ran off, so I'm assuming that the powder did not fully ignite, i have read folks are swaping the primers, to mags or fed 209a's, i don't feel comfortable doing this, what do you think? Ive grown very fond of my hands, fingers ect. in my 55 years. thanks for your help. HC

[FullTang]

Hi hatcreek,

Fed 209A primers are the best bet (along with CCI 209 Magnum) for the slower-burning powders, especially in cold weather. However, because they are so much hotter, and achieve more rapid and complete combustion, you definitely need to use a recipe that calls for Fed 209A primers. With faster burning powders it doesn't matter very much, and you can usually switch to the Fed primer with just a small reduction (around 1/2 gn) in the powder charge---but this is not true for Blue Dot, Longshot, Steel, etc.

[longbow]

Yeah, offhand I do not know how much Federal 209A's affect pressure. I have never used them. Shotshell loading is a bit picky in that regard ~ all the components work together and an change can have quite significant results.

Some load recipes are vague and do not seem to consider primers where others do and in fact both Reloading for Shotgunners and The Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbooks say never to change primers from the listed recipe as it can change pressure by up to 3000 PSI. That's a bunch if you are near max for the load.

I hear all about Blue Dot not liking cold weather but I have shot at well below freezing temperatures with Blue Dot slug loads and no problems at all. Now -30 or -40 is a different matter. Coldest I have used Blue Dot is about -10 degrees C so around 20 degrees F.

Something that certainly affects Blue Dot is pressure. I loaded up some slug loads using nitro card over powder wads then 1/2" hard card wad then slug, but no plastic gas seal over the powder. Those loads did not perform well. Add the plastic gas seal and all is okay again. Lots of pressure bled off past those card wads.

Longbow

[hatcreek]

100052100053100054Here are some load data that longbow was kind enough to email to me, I think there from the Lyman 4th, anyway thanks longbow and all others for your input. HC

[W.R.Buchanan]

HATCREEK! Heed the advice of XS650 in POST #5 !

It doesn't matter how well the ball fits in that hull nearly as much as it matters how it fits the bore of the gun.

Cylinder bore of a 12 ga. shotgun barrel runs from about .730-.735.

If the measurement around your ball and wad exceed this you will have pressure problems, and especially with the loads you want to use.

.662 RB with a WAA12 wad measures .728. A .690 ball would increase that to .756 and that is too big! You either need a smaller ball or a thinner wad.

The devil is in the details. And you really need to read and understand everything before you jump off this cliff.

Randy

[hatcreek]

Thanks Randy and 650, I have since scraped the idea of a .690 ball in wad, the ball in wad would not even come close to being pushed in my rifle barrel hence that was the end of that idea, i'm focusing on cylinder bore with the .690 no wad. WAA12 with the petals cut off and 2 .125 nitro cards, I'm going to be using 800x and Herco and maybe blue dot, the load data is for 1 1/8oz loads out of Lymans 5th and Hodgdon manuals. As far as the rifle barrel load I'm getting the LEE .600 round ball mold and some CSD wads from BPI, Ajay had a post on this somewhere and I liked the idea, I load the .575 ball in 20ga and they are tack driving accurate, so my quest is to try to come up with something in 12ga with similar results, again thanks to all. HC

[longbow]

Yup, 0.735" RB's worked very well in both smoothbore and rifled gun (very limited testing in a borrowed rifled gun). While it seems a bit oversize, the lead at the equator flattens out easily even with ACWW so it swages to suit very well and no problems in my experience.

Recovered balls showed very nice rifling in a narrow "belt" around the equator of the balls.

I like big plain 'ol round balls!

Currently I am working on my rifling machine to produce a slow twist deep rifled choke tube to suit round balls and "square" slugs. Hopefully it works out.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Longbow: OK you opened your mouth on the Rifling Machine.

We will require a complete write up on the design and fabrication of that machine.

Your choke tubes will be called "Paradox." In reference to the great 12, 10, and 8 bore English double guns produced in the late 1800's and early 1900's where the bores were smooth until the last 2",,, then rifled.

Do some research on Evans and H&H Black Powder double rifles. The 8 bore guns shot conical boolits of 1250 gr! with a bunch of powder behind them. The guns weighed around 16 lbs. for good reason!

Pretty interesting stuff.

Randy

[crazy mark]

I use a patched .690 ball in my dbl bbl bp shotgun. It shoots really nice.

[longbow]

Randy:

This rifling machine is small (only for making choke tubes), quite simple and maybe a bit crude but it should guide a cutter quite well when it is finished.

The goal is deep slow twist rifling which as far as I can find is not currently available in any commercial choke tubes. Modern choke tubes seem to be designed primarily for sabot slugs.

My planned choke tube design and installation will be similar to the old Pachmyr Power-Pac system with add on muzzle brake.

Once finished which should be soon, I will rifle some 3/4" sched 40 pipe just to make sure it works well enough then I will bore and rifle some 4140 which will become the choke tube.

I will keep you posted.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: always interested in what us machinist types are doing for recreation.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

At present I just have a small old beat up Atlas lathe which I plan to rebuild one day (though I would rather replace it... maybe if funds are available). I use it to make push out bullet moulds and various tool and bits for reloading mostly.

The rifling machine will be a "modern" take on the old wooden rifling benches and quite simple. As long as the cutter is guided in a consistent spiral down the bore it should do just fine. We will see.

Longbow

[Fla9-40]

:hijack:
I hate to hi-jack the thread, but reading all this about the .690 in a 12ga makes me wonder why some time ago I asked about a 16ga slug mold and people suggested I use this ball as a 16ga slug :veryconfu

Has anyone heard of this??

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program....

[Fla9-40]

Hey excess650, thanks or the info!

[Fla9-40]

Hey excess650 for the info...I guess I will need to get rid of my .690 and get the .600

[longbow]

0.662" is nominal 16 ga. bore diameter. you would have to slug your bore but a naked 0.662" ball should work fine as long as the barrel is cylinder bore (no choke).

I've had very good results using 0.735" RB's in my 12 ga. I use a plastic gas seal then hard card wad column which works best for me. You should be able to do the same with o.662" RB in 16 ga.

Since I find it tedious to make my own wad columns, I prefer to load an undersize ball in shotcups.

If you are looking to try out some different size balls at both bore size and shotcup size Track of the Wolf has a good selection that should give you every size you need:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/3

Get a few of each likely size and give them a go.

Longbow

[Fla9-40]

Hey longbow, GREAT info...Thanks for the link!

My barrel is cylinder bore (no choke).

[6pt-sika]

I've got an original Model 1842 Harpers Ferry so a .69 round ball mold will be a dual use mold for me . I also was thinking of using the .69 ball inside a REM SP-10 wad in several of my old 10 gauge doubles . I think with the wad the fit should be tight enough for me to use them at 25 and possibly 50 yards or atleast I am hoping !

At the moment I am trying the Lee .578" Minie in some Claybuster 16 gauge AA wads . Gonna try it tommorrow I hope in my old circa 1930 AH Fox A . Perhaps later I can try them in my Parker GH that has cylinder bore barrels .

I also have a couple orignal 1841 Mississippi rifles so I can make use of a 54 cal minnie mold . I was also thinking that one might work in a little Fox Sterlingworth 20 gauge I have , use the 54 minnie inside the Claybuster 20 AA wad . Anyway this whole thing for me will be a long drawn out process .

[longbow]

I think that .690" will be loose in a 10 ga. shotcup unless it has thick petals (maybe steel shot wad?). If that is a problem you might try cloth patching the ball into the shotcup already in the hull. I did that for my 0.662" balls in 12 ga. and it worked well. They were a loose rattle fit so I decided to give patching a try and glad I did.

Longbow

[6pt-sika]

I think that .690" will be loose in a 10 ga. shotcup unless it has thick petals (maybe steel shot wad?). If that is a problem you might try cloth patching the ball into the shotcup already in the hull. I did that for my 0.662" balls in 12 ga. and it worked well. They were a loose rattle fit so I decided to give patching a try and glad I did.

Longbow

I was thinking if the ball was to loose in the SP-10 wad I could wrap it with teflon pipe tape .

[longbow]

I think plain old cloth patching or even paper is better as it will release at the muzzle. Teflon pipe tape is pricey and if you wrap the ball is will stay with the ball probably causing random spins to be picked up due to rough surface. It is pretty quick to push a ball and pre-cut patch into a hull with wad in it.

My thoughts anyway.

Longbow

[6pt-sika]

A little OT , but I tried the 578 minnies in my AH Fox 16 gauge today . They showed NO promise what so ever . Best at 25 yards was the right and left barrel about 20" apart . The gun shot Federal and Winchester Foster type slugs decently . One shot each right and left barrel and both brands kept them within 3" at 25 yards . I may very well try factory loads in this gun during the damage control season , but I think my idea of using the minnie balls was a waste . I'll probably S can the idea of using a 54 cal minnie in the 20 gauge as well .

[ackleyman]

Ballistic's Products makes a 12ga wad that has a long section to take up space, it is listed under 7/8oz loads. The petals are very short(1/2"). I simply snip the petals off and the round ball sits on top. Then, after seating the wad in the hull, dropping in the round ball, I will put a thin nitro card on top to enable a good crimp.

If memory serves me correct, the 69 cal round ball is about 1 oz, so I worked up loads using 700x with that pay load. Accuracy was adequate for 15 yards and that was about all through a cylinder bore 870. Larger round balls would certainly be a GREAT improvement.

[longbow]

0.690" balls are closer to 1 1/8 oz. if cast of pure lead.

0.735" balls (standard Lyman mould) shoot well for me from both smoothbore and rifled guns. They are a bit oversize but not much meat at the equator so they swage down easily. I did a test with mallet and wood dowel to push one through the barrel ~ not difficult at all. A slightly smaller ball might be a better choice at say 0.732" but that means a custom mould. Jeff tanner will do it for a reasonable price. I happened to have a gift certificate to track of the Wolf at the time though so went with the Lyman. It works well anyway. Alternately 0.678" is also a standard Lyman and RCBS mould and fits many regular shotcups very well.

Longbow

[X-man]

Tagged for interest

[Charlie U.]

..........It is pretty quick to push a ball and pre-cut patch into a hull with wad in it.

My thoughts anyway.

Longbow

longbow,
I have been going back and reading up on the forum over the last week looking for info on just this subject.
My thoughts were to try a pillow ticking patch on a Lyman .715 Round Ball in the rifled barrel of the H&R UltraSlug gun. Essentially using the shotgun as a big muzzle loader.
Have you tried such a loading? Would it provide any benefit over using the .735 naked ball in a rifled barrel?

[longbow]

I have not tried a patched ball with patching to bore. I have patched into shotcups to snug up undersize balls..

I have read posts where people claim patching into a hull (so full bore with patch) works. I always figured the friction against the hull, opening the crimp and/or the jump through the forcing cone would result in the patch slipping but not having tried it I can't say. others do say it works so if you have the mould it certainly wouldn't hurt to give it a go.

The only advantage I can see over the 0.735" RB would be that the patch should prevent any leading if it does stay around the ball. However, a bit of tumble lube and/or lubed wads under a 0.735" RB should also stop any leading.

I have shot all mine naked but mostly in smoothbore and so far no leading at all. When I borrowed the rifled gun I shot 35 rounds (IIRC) and no leading either. The balls were air cooled range scrap not soft lead.

One other advantage of using a smaller (lighter) ball is that there is a lot more real slug loading data available which is one of the reasons I like to use 525 gr. and under to 1 oz. If you are not after "hot" loads then equivalent weight shot recipes will work fine but will be a couple hundred feet per second lower velocity.

Longbow

[Charlie U.]

Thanks longbow,
I scored an old MEC 600jr and just added a few parts to get it in working order. Now I'm on the hunt for suitable slug molds and am reading all I can on loading slugs.
Will start with the Lyman 525 for sure, but playing with roundball slugs sounds like a good time so I look forward to giving them a go. Hopefully I can pick your brain once I scrape together some more components and get underway with shotgun reloading (already cast and reload center fire so this is just expanding things)

I hunt with the 12ga H&R UltraSlugger and would like to work up some accurate, flat shooting slug loads for 100yd+ hunting.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, its all about the " Fit "
https://i.imgur.com/XjoJTL0.jpg
Must do this push through test if using smooth bore for your own safety.
https://i.imgur.com/ZZ5V8ud.jpg
Watch out for what your primer is telling you:

https://i.imgur.com/lwcac8B.jpg
Now this picture chart is with .678 RB so for .690" RB use the thinnest wad which is Winchester Yellow AA12F114
https://i.imgur.com/EY4DDRR.jpg
Here is the good news for .690" RB shooters, that Win Yellow 12F114 wad is not in the picture, the measurements are at the bottom of the picture:
https://i.imgur.com/wSrmpV9.jpg
* * The ones whose barrel is Over bored will love the Fed 12S-0 wad third from left and 4th from left in Red Versalite wad !


ASSASSIN suggested this load: Here is the load:

HULL: 12 ga. 2 3/4" Federal Gold Medal

PRIMER: Winchester 209

POWDER: Hodgdon Longshot / 38.0 grains

WAD: Federal 12S4...

"2" 16 ga. Nitro Cards inside of wad

.687 diameter lead round ball, with ball sprue sitting centered and on top of the Nitro Cards

14 ga. Over Shot card, sitting on top of round ball

Seat with 20 pounds of pressure on top of over shot card

Fold crimp

Round balls were fired through my Remington 870 with a 34" Hastings Wadlock barrel, using an extended full choke.

Rounds were shot over an Oehler 35P, with a 7 shot string averaging 1,623 fps..

This load also proved to be the most accurate load tested in my gun.

I fired only one 7-shot group, rested, @ 75 yds. and got a 5" group with it, measuring the group center to center.

I started shooting .690 round ball loads back in 1981, and to date, the load listed is the fastest I have ever been able to push a .690 round ball. Decades ago, I shot a beautiful Remington 870 Wingmaster with a fixed full choke, and it was the most accurate round ball gun I have ever shot.
https://i.imgur.com/HG62nK3.jpg

Hoping it helps
Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Outpost75]

Today tried a .69 round ball cast from a Lee mold in my full-choke Beretta Companion. The ball just "hangs" when dropped into the muzzle and can be pushed through the choke with finger pressure only, then drops through the bore of its own weight. I loaded 18 grains of Red Dot in Rem-UMC brass cases with 11-ga. 1/8" card over powder wad, then a 5/8" waxed fiber cushion wad. A 1/8" grease cookie of bullet lube was inserted over the wads, then the naked ball simply dropped over the stack and forced down onto the grease cookie so that the lube extruded around the ball to hold it in place and center it in the case.

Velocity was 1326 fps with Sd 45 and ES 97. Not as accurate as Winchester Ranger Low Recoil Law Enforcement 1 oz. slugs at 1188 fps, but shows promise for a first pop out of the box:

279396279394279395279392279393

Targets shot at 25 yards just aiming down the barrel and holding the bead at 6:00. Smudge above the data scribbled on the round ball target is a wad hit.

[johniv]

Looks promising. Keep us posted.