Problems making 358 Win Brass from 308

[Lever-man]

Need some pointers on what I'm doing wrong. I'm trying to make 358 Winchester brass from once fired military brass. Cleaned, and ran it through new Lee dies, then trimmed it to length, & primed 150 pcs. I loaded two rounds using 158 gr .357 pistol J words, to try in my new Browning BLR and to my surprise the bolt would not close!! I first thought it was hitting just behind the bullet nose, because there are marks there, so I put an unloaded, re-sized pc of brass in the rifle and it will not close either. It appears to be hitting on the shoulder of the brass. What could be causing this? I set up the die per Lee's instructions and made sure that the case holder touched the die on the sizing stroke. I had some un-fired factory 308's so I put one in the rifle and the bolt will close on those, but not the ones I re-sized to 358.

I would appreciate any advise or suggestions.

[dragon813gt]

Sounds like the shoulder is not set back enough. I had the same type of issue when making 300 Savage out of LC 308.

[Lever-man]

Can this be fixed by turning the die in some more?

[DLCTEX]

Turn the size die in until it bumps the shell holder very firmly while sizing. It should not be necessary in the future if the ammo is fired in the same rifle. If this fails to set the shoulder back enough, a thinner shell holder may be necessary. I have had success on some problem cases by simply running them in the die a second time.

[Lever-man]

That may be where I went wrong. I only turned the die in until it lightly touched the shell holder. The best that I can measure with the calipers that I have, the shoulder needs to be .025 to .030 farther back from where it is now. I will try that just as soon as I get my die back in operation or replaced........ I stripped the threads out on the decapper collet, as well as pulled the threads on the inside of the die trying to re-size this batch of brass.

[GRUMPA]

When I do conversions I'll use one of these
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/550336/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-358-winchester

I use an indicator all the time with one of those, trust me it takes the guess work out of it.

Most of the time I need to remove .006-.01 from the shell holder. Rarely do I need to remove any material from the die itself. I use the gages because a person can move the shoulder to much and create issues all there own.

[Lever-man]

Thanks Grumpa, I just put one of these in my cart at Midway!! Just waiting to check out to see if there are any other things I might need to get this brass right.

[dtknowles]

For full length resizing, case forming or when using my file to trim dies, I run the die in until it hits the shellholder when the ram is at the top and then I lower the ram and turn the die in another half turn. If you did not anneal your brass before you tried to form it, it might spring back quite a bit.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Machine gun brass may need a more firm bump. IIRC the datum line for .308 and .358 should be identical. Presses flex and stretch a bit, the key to knowing you're getting full bump is to cam over the ram and look for a gap between the base of the sizing die and the shellholder. Most of the time when I set up for "contact" there ends up being 10-20 thousandths gap when actually sizing a case.

Gear

[1989toddm]

I just sized some brass this evening with new Lee dies and I had to turn the die in between 1/2 and 3/4 turn after touching the shell holder to get the shoulder where it needed to be.

[Lever-man]

I didn't anneal the brass before I started. I will set the die up to give a firmer bump. Seems I've still got a lot to learn.

[GRUMPA]

I didn't anneal the brass before I started. I will set the die up to give a firmer bump. Seems I've still got a lot to learn.

Annealing is the last thing I do when I convert, most of the time. Reason being if anything goes wrong with the forming I'll know right then and there. Yes there's folks out there that anneal there brass first to soften it up which can be of a benefit but some conversions it can work against you.

I do this all the time and if I can convert it over without annealing the case first I'll do it, if not then I anneal. Take the 256 Win Mag I do, those I have to anneal first, there's no other way around it. The 300 Savage I anneal last as with most of what I do.

With that case gauge here's how I have mine set up for the 300 Blackout I make.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61836&d=1361389007

Notice that the gage itself is sitting on something, that's a carbide spacer that I rest it on because the brass is longer than the gage and it would be bottoming out on what ever surface it's resting on.

What I would do is once I got the gage I would take a cases that was used from your rifle and make the new ones .002-.004 smaller than that.

Hope that helps.

[tomme boy]

Do the necks end up too thin converting these from 308 brass? Compared to factory anyway.

[runfiverun]

Winchester brand 358 brass looks to me to just be 308 brass necked up and head stamped.
when I neck it back down to 308 the concentricity of the brass comes back.

some of the best 358 brass I have is from milsurp brass.
it's long enough [and generally thick enough] to be good 358 brass, remember that the 358 has a longer case length than the 308 does.

I can't say for Remington or other brands of brass.

[scb]

I would suggest trying to chamber a sized empty case before going any further. That way you will be certain it's not a sizing issue.

[bhn22]

Can this be fixed by turning the die in some more?

Often times when converting brass, I found it necessary to screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram, and screw the die in another 1/8th turn. This will cause the press linkage to "cam over", removing and play in the linkage. I used to have a Winchester '94 in 356 Winchester, and converted a bunch of 307 brass over, rather than buy different brass. One thing, I did do this on a single stage press, the big shell plate in the progressives isn't supported around the edges, and that adds a little bit of extra play to the situation too.

[JSH]

You might also see if a piece of your milsurp brass will chamber. Shortening a die or thinning a shell holder may still not solve the problem. You may need to get a small base die to get the web sized back down. Depends on what the brass was fired in.
Jeff

[Lever-man]

I would suggest trying to chamber a sized empty case before going any further. That way you will be certain it's not a sizing issue. That was the 2nd thing that I did........ sized empty cases would not chamber. I painted a case black with a marker and found that the shoulder was not set back enough.

[Lever-man]

I annealed the brass today and ran it through the sizer again without the decapper (due to stripped threads on my die). ALL the brass will chamber now, but when I started to put powder and bullets in, the case neck is too small. This caused the neck to bulge out mostly to one side as the bullets were trying to cock to one side instead of going in straight. I did try my Lee expander die to open up the case mouth, but it didn't make any difference. I think this is as far as I can go until I have another die in hand.

[JesterGrin_1]

For case necks I would get a Lyman M Die short body.

Sorry it looks like I was wrong. Long Body. I use this one. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/608518/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-35-caliber-long?cm_vc=ProductFinding

You might do a search here on the forum as I think I remember people using a .38Sp/.357 Magnum pistol expanding die.

[KLR]

For case necks I would get a Lyman M Die short body.

Sorry it looks like I was wrong. Long Body. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/608518/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-35-caliber-long?cm_vc=ProductFinding

This is what I have. Works great.

[Lever-man]

If I'm still having problems after replacing my Lee sizing die, I definitely see about getting one of the Lyman M-expanders. The Lee universal expander has been working for me up to this point. I could be wrong, but it seems like getting the shoulder set back to the proper place pulled the neck down to a smaller size. I'm hoping that when I can put the decapper/neck sizer pin back in it will fix the problem. I want to thank every one for their comments and observations. I'm still on a learning curve, with a long way to go.

[dtknowles]

You might have over annealed your brass, if you were using a torch, you don't want to get the brass red hot, you should not even see it change unless you are doing it in the dark.

Tim

[mikeym1a]

I haven't read the whole thread, but, here is what I think I know. I was trying to resize brass for my Argentine Mauser, and they would not chamber in my rifle. I had two different Lee die sets (don't ask me why) and neither would make it work. I couldn't find my original Lyman die set, and ended up buying a used RCBS die set. Once I did that, the cases would go in the gun. Since then, I've used the RCBS, or my Lyman set (which I found right after I got the RCBS set home) to do my sizing.

[KYCaster]

What kind of press are you using.....it may not have enough strength to do the job.

Not enough shoulder set back, off center neck.....maybe you press is stretching too much?

Jerry

[Lever-man]

You might have over annealed your brass, if you were using a torch, you don't want to get the brass red hot, you should not even see it change unless you are doing it in the dark.

Tim

No chance of over annealing, as I was holding it in my bare fingers!!! There is a real chance of under annealing, or not getting the case annealed the same amount all the way around. The brass being softer on one side might cause the bullet to cock. The press that I'm using is an older Lee Challenger "D" design. Not enough shoulder set back I'm pretty sure was my fault, I don't think that I had the die screwed in enough to start with. The second time, instead of barely touching, I held the handle in the up position, screwed the die in firm, then lowered the ram, and added an extra 1/2 a turn, gave the proper shoulder set back. Does anyone know what tap I would need to run the collet threads out in the die body? I have another decapper collet but the threads are pulled in the die body. Again my fault.

[bhn22]

Another guy on these boards had trouble reforming cases with Lee dies and called Lee about it. They told him their dies weren't cut for case reforming.

[Lever-man]

I haven't called Lee yet, not sure how the dies would be cut different, but there is a lot that I don't know. I have reformed about 200 pcs of 223 to 300 BLK using Lee dies, without one problem. They feed and work in my AR flawlessly. I was expecting the same on reforming 308 to 358 win. Instead I have had one problem after the other!!

[Lever-man]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help. I've got things going my way now. Lee's website had the information on the collet threads, bought a 1/8 - 27 NPT tap, ran the threads out on the die, got the decapper/neck sizer back in and working. Made double sure that the die was adjusted to bottom out......... with the ram up, screwed the die in while holding the ram in the up position, until it made firm contact with the shell holder then screwed it in 1/2 turn more. This got the proper shoulder set back, and with the decapper/neck sizer in I had the proper neck size....... bullets are going in straight now!!!!

[JesterGrin_1]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help. I've got things going my way now. Lee's website had the information on the collet threads, bought a 1/8 - 27 NPT tap, ran the threads out on the die, got the decapper/neck sizer back in and working. Made double sure that the die was adjusted to bottom out......... with the ram up, screwed the die in while holding the ram in the up position, until it made firm contact with the shell holder then screwed it in 1/2 turn more. This got the proper shoulder set back, and with the decapper/neck sizer in I had the proper neck size....... bullets are going in straight now!!!!

That is Great to hear. Now after you fire them all you will need to do is neck size if you use the brass in the same rifle. If you do not have a neck sizer you can still use the standard sizer but smoke the neck or use a felt tipped marker so when you adjust the die bring it down about 30 thousands before it bumps. :)

[Lever-man]

I will be sure to try that Jestergrin_1 I only have one rife for the 358 Win. Will be shooting these in a Browning BLR, some of the things I've read so far seem to indicate that neck sizing only will not work in the BLR. I will try it and see for myself though.

[JesterGrin_1]

Lever-man it seems as if you have tried many things up to this point so why stop. :)

But if it does not work with just neck sizing then what you can do is size the cases just a little at a time till they do work correctly. And by doing so you will not work the brass more than needed. But I could be wrong in my thinking. :)

[ballistim]

Annealing is the last thing I do when I convert, most of the time. Reason being if anything goes wrong with the forming I'll know right then and there. Yes there's folks out there that anneal there brass first to soften it up which can be of a benefit but some conversions it can work against you.

I do this all the time and if I can convert it over without annealing the case first I'll do it, if not then I anneal. Take the 256 Win Mag I do, those I have to anneal first, there's no other way around it. The 300 Savage I anneal last as with most of what I do.

With that case gauge here's how I have mine set up for the 300 Blackout I make.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61836&d=1361389007

Notice that the gage itself is sitting on something, that's a carbide spacer that I rest it on because the brass is longer than the gage and it would be bottoming out on what ever surface it's resting on.

What I would do is once I got the gage I would take a cases that was used from your rifle and make the new ones .002-.004 smaller than that.

Hope that helps.

Grumpa, I have some of your excellent 300 Savage from military brass, do you make up .358 Winchester too? I am planning a build on a rifle in the very near future. I would recommend Grumpa's brass to anyone, it is top notch!