Savage, what about CVA

[charger 1]

We've been all around town on the savage thing and how evil smokeless is in a stuffer. Whats the latest on the CVA's that have grenaded. Just heard while talkin to a chum some poor fella lost an arm or a hand. Anyone heard the poop?

[crowbeaner]

I'd like to hear more. I have a Staghorn percussion and I load it with 90 to 100 gr. of powder RS and a sabot/bullet combo. Were these the magnum rifles that went KB?

[charger 1]

I'd like to hear more. I have a Staghorn percussion and I load it with 90 to 100 gr. of powder RS and a sabot/bullet combo. Were these the magnum rifles that went KB?

Well so would I. I've just heard a few have grenaded. One taking either the fellers arm or hand off. From another forum


CVA Muzzleloaders Blowing Up?
Posted: Dec 9, 2007 2:25 PM Reply


Has anyone else heard of this problem? I've attached a copy of an article I read. Apparently this Randy WAKEMAN guy is pretty well known in the firearms field but I also hear that he has connections with Savage so he may have a hidden agenda. I'd like to hear any comments you may have. Link to web site is at bottom of article

Thanks


Dangerous Muzzleloaders

By Randy Wakeman


In my opinion, far too many people have had their lives destroyed by reportedly using cheap imported muzzleloaders as directed by manufacturer's printed instructions. There are no muzzleloading standards, and there is no governing body on the American muzzleloading scene to effect any semblance of quality control or reasonable safety testing.

According to one attorney, his client is an ex-marine who has been trained for about 13 years on how to clean, load, and fire a muzzle loading rifle. The accident occurred 3 days after he received the rifle as a gift from his daughter. It was a new Traditions .50 caliber inline. The attorney believes he was using the gun as directed by the manufacturer on the date of the accident. The man has lost his right hand as a result of the explosion.

Another attorney's report details how a man purchased a new CVA .50 caliber inline, a package of .50 caliber / 50 grain Hodgdon brand Triple Seven propellant pellets, a package of Winchester brand W209 Primers and a CVA brand .50 caliber Complete Muzzleloading Accessory Outfit at a chain store, according to the receipt. A short while later, one primer was fired per the instructions and then, to sight in the muzzleloader, loaded 3 of the 50 grain pellets, a .50 caliber "PowerBelt" 295 grain hollow point bullet with plastic "sabot" snap-on base and a W209 primer.

He fired the muzzleloader and the barrel exploded. His wife was present at the scene of the accident. She transported him to the hospital ER. This man was in the emergency room within about two hours of his new purchase. Two surgeries have already been performed in an attempt to repair the damage to his hand as a result of the explosion. More are indicated.

In another incident, a different man, with approximately 20-25 years of experience hunting with muzzleloaders / black powder guns, was target shooting on a Saturday with a friend, using his CVA inline. The hospital reports that after being stabilized x-rays were taken which revealed a "large metallic FB with spring located at the angle of the mandible."

In yet another CVA incident, a man with ten years of muzzleloading under his belt was sighting in a new scope on his CVA inline. His brother and nephew were present. After a catastrophic failure, his injuries reportedly consisted of a torn right nostril from the base of the nostril to just below the right eye socket. It took 40-45 stitches to close this wound. His nose and his right cheek bone were broken.

A concerned consumer recently wrote to Mark Hendricks, Technical Manager, Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA), 5988 Peachtree Corners East Norcross, GA 30071. The letter describes how a design defect nearly caused the death of this man's son-in-law. It reads, in part:

"My opinion as a graduate engineer is that CVA has a critical design defect, which should be corrected immediately, and should require a product recall. In addition to this problem, we discussed the rationale for specifying barrel strength, and I asked you what the strength of CVA muzzleloader barrels was. You would only tell me that the "minimum specification" was 700 kp/cm2. When I asked you what the maximum pressure spec was, you told me that no one knows, and that "ignorance is bliss". In other words, you could not tell me at what load pressure the barrel would burst. Is this the same attitude that I heard your customer service technician express when he said that the problem I reported had never occurred, therefore it was not possible?"

Jim Bruno, VP of Traditions Firearms, e-mailed me a while back, stating in part:

"Randy, Do you think that we would make a firearm that would not support charges that we advertise and market to the public of the United States of America? I know that you are evaluating and comparing muzzleloaders of different companies in the black powder industry and have done a pretty thorough job, but understand that every time you write or speak any negative comments about our industry you provide ammunition for the people who do not believe that the 2nd amendment exists."

Well, Jim, I'll answer you here and now. First of all, you are apparently unaware of what you are selling. You manufacture no muzzleloaders; you merely import them from a company in Spain. You have no known testing facilities of your own. You have been unable to show that your imported frontloaders are tested with the charges you recommend--charges that are not recommended by powder manufacturers.

It is a "red herring" argument to attempt to turn your lack of knowledge about your own product into a 2nd Amendment issue. The 2nd Amendment is not an entitlement for you to foist substandard product, built to unknown or non-existent standards, on the American consumer.

Terry L. Eby, BPI National Sales Manager / Retail, e-mails in part:

"Randy: I don't consider my language careless and I absolutely stand by my opinion that your position has no basis in fact--but much in conjecture and assumption. If your implication that we would knowingly put our customers at risk is not defamatory, I don't know what is."

Unfortuantely, Terry, the "basis in fact" will be presented to you in court, as your injured consumers have no other recourse. Your company, "BPI," is Spanish owned and operated and has no proper American testing facilities. Do you have any at all? The brands you peddle, CVA, Beartooth, and Winchester Muzzleloading still come from the very same factory that the sorely defective "CVA Apollo" came from, with the same steel, don't they?

This is the CVA Apollo gun that had so many personal injury claims filed against it that the "old CVA" was forced into receivership, is that not true? I have seen nothing to indicate that your sub-standard proofs and poor quality control is any better now than it was then.

If you don't believe the printed results from Lyman Ballistic Laboratories showing 25,000 PSI peak pressures in three pellet loads that you recommend in your manuals for use in your guns that bear a 10,000 PSI area House of Eibar definitive proof mark, you are welcome to take it up with them.

Hodgdon Powder Co. recommends that only two 50 grain equivalent Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets MAXIMUM be used in .50 caliber inlines. You recommend three. By whose authority is this done? On what basis is this done?

The pity of all this is that proven safe, quality muzzleloaders have never been more plentiful, or more affordable. Knight Rifles, NEF / H & R, Thompson / Center Arms, and Austin & Halleck all currently offer exemplary inline muzzleloading rifles today that you won't be betting your life on.

The Savage 10ML-II is the best built frontloader of them all, using the Savage magnum centerfire barrel as a starting point. The affordable Knight Wolverine, proven for twenty years right now, is a shining example of how you can fly first class with a Green Mountain barrel for an economy ticket price.

The girl behind the counter at Wally World may be oblivious to all this, and apparently large retailers such as Bass Pro and Cabela's are as well. I've heard and seen enough of this nonsense to last me several lifetimes; I don't have the stomach for much more human blood.

Cheap, extruded barreled rifles should give anyone pause. Any propane tank for a gas grill is built to a better, uniform standard of testing for the application--at least your propane tank must pass hydro. And, this isn't just my opinion: you won't find muzzleloading legends like Doc White, Henry Ball, or Del Ramsey dissenting.

It is my considered opinion that muzzleloading rifles with soft, extruded barrels proofed to only 10,000 PSI are not fit to be used. I'd much rather dial in a Knight Wolverine than dial 911. Wouldn't anybody?

There is a huge, ever increasing body of evidence that shows CVA branded guns (BPI, CVA Winchester Muzzleloading, New Frontier, etc.) can be quite dangerous with factory recommended loads. Those that have their own personal injury issues can contact several sources for help. Here is one good one: Eaton & Sparks 1717 E. 15th Street Tulsa, OK 74104 Attn. Dean Wise Firearms use, in general, is a very safe sport, with firearms related injuries falling year after year. In fact, A new report from the National Safety Council shows that accidental firearm related fatalities remained at record lows in 2004. Statistics in the council?s ?Injury Facts 2005-2006? show a 48 percent decrease over a 10-year period ending in 2004 (the latest year for which data is available). There are rare, very rare exceptions. CVA guns, deficient in design, materials, and quality control in my opinion, give the great sport of muzzleloading a bad name. To subsidize further injuries and fund the decay of the great American firearms manufacturers with your hard earned dollars by buying a dubious CVA gun is unnecessary and unconscionable

[Onlymenotu]

umm how current is the/this info,,,,, i know there was this issue * or so called issue depending on witch side of the fence your on* 3 or 4 years ago when i was looking to buy a new inline.. it was a pretty heated debate a couple years ago... it was with the spainish barrel not being proofed tested ...(this was not even about smokless but using magmun loads of bp /sub's in a unproofed barrel ) if my memery serves me correctly ,,,but i hadn't heard of any new issues

[waksupi]

This goes back to my personal arguement, that ML's are intended for BP, and preferably a patched RB. The old rifles shooting elongated bullets, were generally much heavier barrels than are offered on any of the modern inlines I have seen.
With black powder, the detonation factor should be almost a non-starter.
It has been nearly 20 years ago, that the old Sharon Rifle Company, then working as the Montana Barrel CO., conducted an extensive destructive test series. This was done under supervision of Jerry Cunningham, of Orion Barrels, some of the best thousand yard barrels on the market now.
It was found that it was nearly impossible to blow up a barrel using BP. The only way to cause damage was to have a projectile separated from the charge. They were never able to destroy a barrel, only cause bulges. One test involved breeching both ends of a heavy barrel, and discharging it. All of the gasses exited the vent, with no damage to the barrel.
Highest charge tried, was 1700 gr. powder, with 17 patched round balls over that. That was all the barrel would hold. No damage to the barrel.
These tests were specifically to test thier barrel steel, and it was obvious that they were using good stuff.
Also tested was a cardboard tube, from the center of a roll of paper towels. A wood plug was fitted to one end, and duct tape wrapped the length of the tube. I see to recall this test was done with 1200 gr. powder. And the tube did not rupture. I don't remember what the projectile was.
I believe most of this was published in the old "Buckskin Report" many years ago.
If you are going to shoot the inlines with modern powders and elongated projectiles and sabots, don't be surprised if you don't have a nasty surprise sometime. I have heard more horror stories about accidents with them, than with any traditional ML's. I have been involved at the national level of ML shooting for over 30 years, and have never heard a varifiable story of a traditional firearm in good condition blowing up. And some shot, are pushing 200 years old pretty hard, if not more. Accidents that have happened tend to be nipples blowing out with inexperienced shooters overcharging rifles, or not doing proper maintanence, allowing the nipple threads to rust out. Most common, would be for someone in a speed shoot breaking a ramrod, and running the end through thier hand. That is why it is not a good idea to have speed shoots.

[Rattus58]

Well Charger, I would have considered that last long post of yours till you started citing Randy Wakeman. The man is a sensationalist, which means that in MY OPINION, good information is turned into tainted information and loses its flavor. Even a grain of salt won't help with that.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

[waksupi]

Well Charger, I would have considered that last long post of yours till you started citing Randy Wakeman. The man is a sensationalist, which means that in MY OPINION, good information is turned into tainted information and loses its flavor. Even a grain of salt won't help with that.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:


I just about made mention of that in my post. When you start using Wakeman for a source or authority, I get pretty doubtful.

[Onlymenotu]

Like i said i think this is old news,,,,,, and somebody is just sturring the pot,,,,,,, and bring it back to the top is all.....

[RBak]

When you start using Wakeman for a source or authority, I get pretty doubtful.

So do I!
He is responsible for giving those of us who prefer a Traditional style Muzzleloader a really bad name over the past few years, in his effort to promote in-lines with closed ignition, scopes, sabbots, and faux powders.

Seems a patch and round-ball will no longer get the job done....at least by his standards, and he is doing his best to convince the Game Depts.in every state that this is a fact....even bringing class action law suits against those states who are trying to run a muzzleloading season they way they best see fit.

Just my thoughts.

Russ...(Co-Founder, Traditional Muzzleloading Association Assoc, Inc.)
www.TraditionalMuzzleloadingAssociation.org

[Underclocked]

RussB, I think you are confusing him (in part) with someone else. And I know of no class action lawsuit on that issue.

[crowbeaner]

WEELLL, that long post still doesn't answer my question. How about listing the rifles that are having problems. Mine is only a 100 gr. rifle and I keep it scrupulously clean. It shoots best with 90 of Pyrodex RS, a black T/C sabot, RCBS cast 240 or 245 gr. .44 SWC and CCI 11 1/2 caps. When you start loading 150 grains with a 300 grain bullet (whatever type) and shotshell primers, you MAY HAVE problems. A BP rifle is not the uber magnum du jour. Why do people insist on trying to make them one? Are they REALLY such bad hunters that they need to try and shoot a deer at 250 yards with one? What in h*** ever happened to stalking skills? Did they go the way of the recurve and longbow? My light little CVA kicks hard enough with the load I use; why would I punish myself for an extra 50 yards? I'm going to fill the stock with gound walnut media to add some weight and reduce recoil. I wouldn't DREAM of trying 150 grain loads. NUTS! CB.

[Onlymenotu]

@crowbeaner again i think this is old news and not sure IF there was ever a so called list of guns again the last i heard of this was about 3 or 4 years ago when i was looking to buy a inline and i was doing the research on them i wanted a break action for the eazy of loading the primers and removal of the breech plug and barrel for cleaning so i was looking pretty seriously at the CVA wolf and the N.E.F Sidekick after alot of research i ended up going with the Sidekick one of the reviews of the Sidekick was written by Randy to witch he gave it thumbsup in the end after listing it's pitfalls( the ramrod,, mostly) and i think it was a pretty fair and accurate review but in the end what i read in his review had very little to do with my decision to buy the Sidekick it was more from the collected info from the others who owned the gun or who had shot the gun. at the time i was doing my research on the inlines,,,, Randy was realy the only guy i heard on the the issue of not proofing the barrels... so my advice is take no one mans word as the gospel...Think for your self * do your own research and draw your own conclusions and just so you know i'm not a cva basher.... i own a hawken style cva rifle :roll: and have always hated the bladesight on it from the moment i got it :roll: but that being said its a desent shooting gun for the money

[mooman76]

Seems to me CVA had a recall on some inlines somewhere around 2000 but I am not sure exactly when, it's been awhile.

[mooman76]

This was taken from the CVA home page!

WARNING:

DO NOT USE CVA IN- LINE RIFLES WITH
95 OR 96 SERIAL NUMBERS
SERIOUS INJURY MAY RESULT
RECALL REMINDER

In 1997, Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc., voluntarily implemented a recall of in-line muzzleloading rifles manufactured in 1995 and 1996. If you currently own or possess a CVA in-line rifle with a 95 or 96 serial number, or you purchased one or gave it or sold it to another person, and the barrel has not been replaced, you should contact a Company Representative immediately by calling the customer service number below:

1-770-449-4687(8:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. EST)

To identify the rifle, read the serial number on the barrel opposite the firing bolt. The only CVA rifles subject to the voluntary recall are in-line models with serial numbers ending with the last two digits of 95 or 96. No other firearm models within the CVA product line are affected by the voluntary recall.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blackpowder Products, Inc. purchased the assets of Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. in May, 1999. Blackpowder Products, Inc. assumed no liability for any product manufactured or sold prior to January 1, 1998. Blackpowder Products, Inc. is continuing the Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. recall. Please do not return your in-line rifle before contacting a Company Representative at 1-770-449-4687.

[charger 1]

Where exactly are CVA's made?

[mooman76]

They used to be maid in Spain and imported a long time ago. I'm not sure where they are made now but I'll see what I can find out.

[charger 1]

Well Charger, I would have considered that last long post of yours till you started citing Randy Wakeman. The man is a sensationalist, which means that in MY OPINION, good information is turned into tainted information and loses its flavor. Even a grain of salt won't help with that.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:


As I said quoted from another sight. Wakeman fella no good?Those guns didnt grenade?No hand lost?

[mooman76]

My Inline with a 2000 serial # says amde in Spain. If I am not mistaken CVA was bought by someone in the last couple years but either way I don't know if they are still made there or not. BUt.... after looking at my inline I see it is time to clean some of my guns!

[Rattus58]

Hi Charger.... :)

ANY GUN can blow up. The latest account that I heard about a couple of days ago, was using smokeless powder. That is not the guns fault. I know of Whites, T/C's, Savage, and others which have burst due to various reasons, mostly, operator error. Many years ago, CVA had a problem with the receiver and recalled many guns.

Some writers think that they are the end all of authority cuz they have a spell check. Some of these writers are quite absorbed with their own importance and make some really outrageous ASSUMPTIONS about some imported guns and the "proofing" that was conducted at the home state... including Austin and Halleck, a gun which I also sold. It is funny, A&H used the same proofing, yet according to some of these self appointed alarmists, they were immune from criticism... So do you smell anything? I know that A&H tested their guns, but there is NO PAPER WORK TO THAT EFFECT anywhere so some of these alarmists rather than be even handed, well if they have a beer, or maybe get a free gun you get the picture of demands for one might be a lesser "proof" on another....

Aloha.... :cool: :drinks:

[waksupi]

My Inline with a 2000 serial # says amde in Spain. If I am not mistaken CVA was bought by someone in the last couple years but either way I don't know if they are still made there or not. BUt.... after looking at my inline I see it is time to clean some of my guns!


Looks like a good time for you to inform people on the cleaning of inlines. What type of powder did you last use, and what was your cleaning process? What condition are the bore, nipple, and breech threads in now?

[mooman76]

Looks like a good time for you to inform people on the cleaning of inlines. What type of powder did you last use, and what was your cleaning process? What condition are the bore, nipple, and breech threads in now?

I was just saying the gun has been sitting a long time without being cleaned. It was cleaned last time I used it but that was a few years ago!

[waksupi]

I was just saying the gun has been sitting a long time without being cleaned. It was cleaned last time I used it but that was a few years ago!


I wasn't being a wise guy, I was seriously wondering if there was any unexpected corrosion. :drinks:

[mooman76]

I wasn't being a wise guy, I was seriously wondering if there was any unexpected corrosion. :drinks:

I didn't think you were. I noticed where they did the Lazer etching of serial number and marking looks like light rust. Could be just the way it looks but I have allot of guns I don't hardly shoot so it would probubly be a good thing to do a light cleaning and oiling!:mrgreen:

[Underclocked]

If you can pick up a rifle from a retail chain store at a cost of $70 out the door, how much do you think went into materials and labor - attention to detail, quality control, etc considering that it went through about 4 price increases in the process of getting to your hands?

Those published concerns may be responsible for a pretty serious upgrade in the quality of barrels CVA is now using on their better models. The Bergara barrels had some pretty good input in their development and reported quality is quite good. I don't think all CVA models fit neatly into one category with regard to their built in safety margin.

[Rattus58]

CVA has been making their muzzleloader barrels for their inlines 100% UNTOUCHED by human hands.. all of it CNC. The production cost for that alone is $100 less than anything made in America.

Bergara barrels are button rifled and have a unique "straightening" process that I had never seen before.... actually never even thought of before... a bent barrel... nah..... :grin:

Blowing up? I'd like to see more data on ANY of the barrels blown up.

Aloha... :cool:

[waksupi]

If you can pick up a rifle from a retail chain store at a cost of $70 out the door, how much do you think went into materials and labor - attention to detail, quality control, etc considering that it went through about 4 price increases in the process of getting to your hands?


Good point. I generally have over $500 in basic parts, before even starting to build a ML, and that doesn't necessarily include the wood!

[Rattus58]

Just out of curiosity, what muzzleloader can you get fer $70 out the door?

Aloha.... :cool:

[mooman76]

Actually I picked up several for under or right about $70 but they were clearance models to include my inline when the so called "Magnum" BP's came out. Not the best but still fun to shoot.

[Underclocked]

For a time (since this whole issue was raised), you could often buy some of the bolt actions (Mag-bolt or Hunterbolt come to mind) and the CVA Bobcat sidelock for that money. I sometimes read of folks picking up the Bobcats at sales for even less. I think the low price point currently is about 109. Neither of those rifles mentioned are in CVA's current offerings.

And the Bergara barrels are a recent development. CNC and button rifling - does that include the extruded barrels that were in question? Sometimes you can dismiss the town crier's message because you don't like him (and may well have good reason for not liking him) but his message might still contain more than a little truth. I've not seen FIRST-HAND any of the cases that lead to a certain "attitude" but I have seen enough of it second-hand to lend a lot of credibility to the contentions. And I am not THAT gullible.

The whole argument centered around proof marks and recommended loads and was inspired by people being seriously injured (for whatever reasons). While I agree there is little evidence to support superiority of American made barrels by way of proof marks over those in question AT THE TIME, anyone that would examine even a lower priced Huntsman and compare quality to one of the rifles could SEE substantial differences (if they weren't blind). And the proof mark on those barrels in question tended to make the concept of proofs worthless.

I had never heard of a proof mark that meant anything other than maximum tested pressure which should not be approached, let alone equalled. So the notion of selling a barrel with a proof mark of less than 10,000 psi while recommending loads that generate far more pressure seems more than foolish to me. Compliance with Spanish law - perhaps - but another manufacturer using Spanish barrels had no trouble in seeing the issue and doing something about it.

What does a barrel's proof mark mean to you?

I am not campaigning here for anyone, just suggesting that the issue was more important than many would acknowledge - for whatever reason. And, for whatever reason, CVA took a huge step toward marketing rifles with better build quality and components. For some odd reason, prices on those rifles have gone up considerably compared to those in question.

Higher quality Spanish-made double barreled shotguns sure aren't cheap!! Neither are higher quality Spanish-made muzzleloaders.

[Rattus58]

I generally resist giving ANY credence to those who go off in hysterical rage against anyone without they themselves having suffered.

I generally feel that anyone who disingenuously maligns one but saves another, is nothing but a charlatan, unworthy of trust or respect.

Now if CVA is building better guns today, great. Am I ready to accede that this wasn't in their planning all along, no. Companies that are into the mass production at some point have to look to new techniques of mass production.

Aloha.... :cool:

[Rattus58]

And the Bergara barrels are a recent development. CNC and button rifling - does that include the extruded barrels that were in question? Sometimes you can dismiss the town crier's message because you don't like him (and may well have good reason for not liking him) but his message might still contain more than a little truth. I've not seen FIRST-HAND any of the cases that lead to a certain "attitude" but I have seen enough of it second-hand to lend a lot of credibility to the contentions. And I am not THAT gullible.

http://www.bergarabarrels.com/

[Maven]

All, I don't have a vested interest in CVA's quality or alleged lack thereof, but there are 2 articles about CVA now using Bergara bbls. in all of their rifles in the Nov. 2007 "American Rifleman." The 2nd article is about a new CVA in-line with electric (electronic?) ignition powered by a 9v. lithium-ion battery.

[Underclocked]

Rattus, so? ;)

[Rattus58]

:grin: :grin: So nuttin.... that is all the skinny I have on Bergara. A year or so ago, there was a CVA Black Powder Hunting episode that showed essentially this same video. As to your observation that there are some expensive barrels out there, this video alluded to that too... home of many very fine hand made rifles of all sorts in that District of the Country... Bergara... :) So... I's agreein wit ya....

Aloha... :cool:

[Underclocked]

http://randywakeman.com/WillMyCVAMuzzleloaderBlowUp.htm

read it, then decide.

[Rattus58]

Hi Rich.
Well then, if Randy Wakeman feels as strongly as he does about the CVA, and is such a CHAMPION for the rights and body parts of CVA shooters, instead of shooting his mouth off, why doesn't he file an injunction against CVA. Why hasn't an injured person filed an injunction against CVA. Why hasn't the "mouth" gone to consumer product safety commission like any other concerned person would in a situation like this, why hasn't he contacted a litigation attorney, I mean according to the "mouth", this is a Class Action waiting to happen.

Further, Mr. H.P. White, the most "distinguished" independent laboratory in all of America, why aren't these findings sent to CVA or to the CPSC since in his "opinion" these guns are decidedly unsafe?

My opinions, Rich, are NEVER going to be decided by cherry picked words and phrases of anyone, and much less, the "mouth".

If YOU feel that CVA has an unsafe product, I'll support your opinion, but as far as the "mouth" goes, I'm unimpressed.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[charger 1]

http://randywakeman.com/WillMyCVAMuzzleloaderBlowUp.htm

read it, then decide.

Man this Wakeman seems to know his stuff

[Rattus58]

Give an example please???

[charger 1]

Give an example please???


OK I cant do it no more. When savage ML 10's first hit the market I signed up for the fun. There was a forum specially for em. Randy fakeman used to come on there blowin wind. And blowin wind it was. I was havin fun when I saw that on another forum. Believe it or not I was involved with two of the savage tech guys when they were trying to change the pee poor rear hold down bolt(Not that its any hell still) but thats another story. They to at savage are literally embarassed of Fakeman... When I see his stuff I just gotta repost and get a rise... I'm surprised that self important wak job knows which end of the gun goes to his shoulder. Most of his writting were merely rewrittings....Guess what fellas. Savage smokeless.CVA,etc etc can ALL blow in the wrong hands:twisted:

[Rattus58]

Well... finally... someone who I can relate to.... *grin*. I was just reading that will my gun blow up article again because something in it just didn't sound right, and lo and behold, the stainless steel that we used in our CRITERION barrels was 410. Very hard to machine but stronger than the softer usually used 416 and you can find brinnel hardness of both of those steels LESS than the level the Good Doc cited...

However, it is the hardening sequence that matters... it's how you harden it or temper it and I think that hotter is better... and the cva video I think was talking about very hot temps.. and if I'm not mistaken, they were using stainless steel as well.

Aloha..... Tom :cool:

[Underclocked]

Hogan's Goat

[Rattus58]

Oh fer cryin out loud.... now you's trying to what.. say the goat ait the homewhork?

:-D:-D:-D

Aloha.... :cool: :grin:

[Onlymenotu]

12-16-2007, 02:33 PM
Charger 1
post 1

Savage, what about CVA
We've been all around town on the savage thing and how evil smokeless is in a stuffer. Whats the latest on the CVA's that have grenaded. Just heard while talkin to a chum some poor fella lost an arm or a hand. Anyone heard the poop?



12-22-2007, 04:01 AM
Charger 1
post 3
Well so would I. I've just heard a few have grenaded.


Yesterday, 04:51 PM
Charger 1
post 37
Man this Wakeman seems to know his stuff



Yesterday, 06:33 PM
Charger 1
post 39

OK I cant do it no more. When savage ML 10's first hit the market I signed up for the fun. There was a forum specially for em. Randy fakeman used to come on there blowin wind. And blowin wind it was. I was havin fun when I saw that on another forum. Believe it or not I was involved with two of the savage tech guys when they were trying to change the pee poor rear hold down bolt(Not that its any hell still) but thats another story. They to at savage are literally embarassed of Fakeman... When I see his stuff I just gotta repost and get a rise... I'm surprised that self important wak job knows which end of the gun goes to his shoulder. Most of his writting were merely rewrittings....Guess what fellas. Savage smokeless.CVA,etc etc can ALL blow in the wrong hands


so you've been sturring the pot all the time........ what a waste of post..:roll::(

[charger 1]

Not really when you put this thread along side the one we had not that long ago of, smokeless powders in front stuffers are the devils doing

[Onlymenotu]

Today 08:32 AM
charger 1 Not really when you put this thread along side the one we had not that long ago of, smokeless powders in front stuffers are the devils doing


how does bicking between the gun comuninity help in the least bit.......not only are you fighting the anti's....... but now your promoting fighting betweenst yourselfs.....?

it loads from the front/muzzle,,,,, no matter what you dump down it....
the time and resources would be better spent on the anti's... united we stand divided we fall...*and bicking within makes for a weak foundation*......... so keep playing the game i guess,,, i just never understood it is all:(


the only good i seen come from this,,,,,,,,,, is at least you made crowbeaner go annd check his guns * to find out some of them need cleaned*...[smilie=1:

[charger 1]

how does bicking between the gun comuninity help in the least bit.......not only are you fighting the anti's....... but now your promoting fighting betweenst yourselfs.....?

it loads from the front/muzzle,,,,, no matter what you dump down it....
the time and resources would be better spent on the anti's... united we stand divided we fall...*and bicking within makes for a weak foundation*......... so keep playing the game i guess,,, i just never understood it is all:(


the only good i seen come from this,,,,,,,,,, is at least you made crowbeaner go annd check his guns * to find out some of them need cleaned*...[smilie=1:


And what you said here. Which as I said too BUT YOU WERENT THEREthat started infighting before I started in a lot bigger way
__________________________________________________ _________
"""it loads from the front/muzzle,,,,, no matter what you dump down it....""""
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Very good point, so rather than making small or calling it less manly, sporting and all the other things smokeless was called, lets get on with the sport. I agree whole heartedly

[RBak]

lets get on with the sport. I agree whole heartedly

So do I!




Russ..

[Onlymenotu]

BUT YOU WERENT THERE.

you were/are right i wasn't there i typical avoid this type of post like the pleg and i would have avoided this one too if... i knew it was a baited post from the get go * smacks my hand* shame on me now i'll be on the baited post alert and be more carefulon witch ones i reply too.....

[crowbeaner]

It wasn't ME that needs to clean my guns: that was somebody else! MINE are clean! I did check the serial# though, and mine was made in 2000. It has some proof marks before the # too; maybe the pressure level or something. I keep my smokepole clean; my BIL had one that rusted badly after being left for 3 days. CB.

[Mike Manco]

There is no way I'd load my Stag Horn Mag over 100 Gr. The Proof marks are punched in along with all the other info, including the 700Kp/cm2 pressure mark; which hints it was never tested. Mine has an 02 for the last numbers, but by the looks of the short re-enforced chamber I wouldn't trust it over 100gr no matter what the directions said. I've had the best experiences using 2-50gr Triple 7 Pellets, or 80 gr Triple 7 2f Powder with the 295 gr Power-belt HP. As far as that Wakeman feller goes, I don't much care for his style, and it seems as though he likes to knock down the lower price range smoke poles on the market. I'd like to know how many free guns he owns, and who they came from?

[Willbird]

Well for 777 folks have almost universally found that 100-110 grains of loose powder is the ragged edge where accuracy goes away if you use more. That being with a 250-300 grain pistol bullet in a sabot. 150 grains equiv of pellets behind a heavy full bore conical like the one guy was using is a very heavy load.

The 10,000 psi proof but has been hashed to death, it does not mean the gun is only fit for 10,000 psi, it is simply a value that Spain legally requires for ML rifles. We are somewhat fortunate in the USA to NOT have a proof testing law like for instance Great Britain did or does. It made sense back THEN...but with modern mfg methods the end product is a lot more predictable now tan it was then.

That said I have never been a fan of the "cheapest one is the BEST one" game....that game has been around a long long time............and you cannot argue with those folks......their just gonna buy the cheapest whatever there is, and try their best to work it around to being able to say it is BETTER than a nicer product that costs more $$.

I have not hear a single story about a guy losing a hand to a TC rifle loaded with BP or any of the BP analogs......and I think it is worth an extra $100 to maybe keep both my hands ;-).

As far as tradition vs progress.......I LIKE old time BP shooting....for fun and games, but my TC Omega is a hunting rifle....that I use in both gun and BP seasons...........if they outlawed it in BP season I would STILL probably use it in gun season. Then I would cook up something that would provide the best velocity and accuracy within the rules for BP season.

The same that is said about BP guns and progress could be said for archery as well, but the use of compound bows puts more people in the field making meat with arrows than ever hunted in north america 100 years prior to today COMBINED. And some of those guys no doubt say "hmm I'd like to try a recurve bow some time".

Bill

[frontier gander]

if you think tc hasnt blown maimed someone before, or any other rifle brand, u are wrong

[6pt-sika]

Well for 777 folks have almost universally found that 100-110 grains of loose powder is the ragged edge where accuracy goes away if you use more. That being with a 250-300 grain pistol bullet in a sabot. 150 grains equiv of pellets behind a heavy full bore conical like the one guy was using is a very heavy load.


Ahhhh yes the load I pushed for a number of years before I started with the Savage 10ML-II and VV N-110 !

I found in the 50 cal Disc Rifle 110 grains of granulated 777 3FG with a Hornady 250 SST was about perfect . And in the 45 Disc Rifle the same charge with the Hornady 200 grain SST was just as good !

[451whitworth]

if you think tc hasnt blown maimed someone before, or any other rifle brand, u are wrong

i have seen those pictures of blown up ML's from just about every manufacturer. my first though has always been "what did he do wrong?" that maybe unfair but so many people have no business using a ML. all you have to do is go in a gun store days before ML deer season starts and people come in to buy an inline and ask the clerk how to load it.

[Mike Manco]

You won't get an argument out of me about some folks that swear to their lower price range in-line ML'rs.I don't remember what I paid for my Stag Horn Mag, but I do joke about the fact that the scope I have mounted on it cost more than the rifle! I bought the rifle for the express purpose of Ground Hog hunting on a friend's farm that is infested with them. If I go down there this year I'm thinking about taking my Pedersoli Sharps .54 Cal Sporting Rifle and Sharps Confederate Carbine to try them out open sights.
You know as well as I do that someone who hasn't been schooled in BP can be oblivious to any number of mistakes like not seating the ball/bullet firmly on the charge, or otherwise leaving an air space between ball etc. To be safe during hunting season I'm going to get the percussion cap conversion; since hearing the federalies have changed the rules for Primitive arms. I have to admit that all I have used in my Stag Horn is Powerbelts of different weights. I've never used a sub caliber Sabot, though the more I read about them--the better the idea looks; despite the plastic build-up in the barrel. The way I looked at it is I run a bore brush through the barrel every 3'd round, and I've heard you have to use a plastic solvent and brush after every round with the Sabots.

[jonk]

Well they used to make barrels out of IRON. However soft the steel of a cheaply made inline, it is still steel. As such it should be fine with any reasonable load.

I'm a fan of (in general) using a powder charge of twice the bullet diameter as a max. 45 means 90 gr max. 50 means 100 gr max. For minie balls in larger diameters like .58, I usually limit that to 80 gr max, mainly to avoid blowing out the skirt, not because I'm worried it would bust the gun at 116 gr.

If you get a deer in your sights at 100 yards with a decent bullet- whatever the twist of your gun may be, dictating whether thats a round ball, conical, sabot, whatever- you'll kill it just as dead with 100 gr of powder as with 150. For that matter I rather think that if you hit it in the lungs or heart with 50 gr of powder you'd still kill it, though the trajectory would be an issue.

CVA, traditions, whatever, I have a hard time believing any will burst with 100 gr of black powder or less. The same holds true in older cartridge guns. I can shoot my 2A1 Enfield in 7.62 Nato all day long with suitable loads, i.e. not quite top end .308 loads (I use 1 gr over start as my max) and it is fine. You load that same gun with light magnum loads and you'll have all kinds of trouble. Even if the proof load is DOUBLE the standard PSI and the gun can take that once or twice, or even 100 times, eventually it will cause issues if you feed it a steady diet.

In the muzzleloaders, 150 gr might not be a proof load- for a .50 cal I'd call 200 gr with 2 bullets a proof load- but it surely is a stout load.

Even then, I agree, you can damn near fill the barrel with powder and it won't hurt the gun, it's just something about how black powder burns. The trouble starts with the substitutes and pellets, which by DESIGN have some air in them- in the center of the pellet, where the base is beveled, and then in the base of the sabot. Lots of air swirling around there.

I'll shoot black, thanks, in everything from my original 1803 Harper's Ferry (207 years and works just fine) to my modern made traditional guns to my inlines. Including my CVA Optima.

[Willbird]

The older material on loading muzzle loaders said to shoot them over fresh snow, and increase powder charge until you were blowing unburned powder out.....or fire over newspapers laid on the ground looking for the same thing. This of course was when most ML used round balls and #11 caps.

I have used mostly Barnes bullets/sabots.....and I have never had to remove any plastic from my bore....mostly the gun has fired 777 powder, and only been cleaned with water......recently it has gotten some use with BH209.

Only the powder mfg really know what happens when you increase BP analog charges past what is recommended. I know that before I knew of the .777 conversion factor for 777 I used 150 grains by WEIGHT in my Omega behind a 300 grain bullet/sabot and it did not blow up...it was not an accurate combination, and it kicked like a mule. The crono said something like 2400 fps.

Bill

[10 ga]

I have 5 sidehammer guns, 3 inlines, all for BP. Have a Savage ML II and it is a different beast, but a beast I like. Swiss, Diamondback, Goex, any "Holy Black" for the guns that need it. 4759 and 4198 for the Savage! 10 ga

[frontier gander]

Heres me shooting my CVA Accura .50cal with a American Pioneer 150gr Super stick. 3 shots, and only a little bump on my nose from the scope hitting me LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx2bTJUYUKs

[Mike Manco]

Ahhhh yes the load I pushed for a number of years before I started with the Savage 10ML-II and VV N-110 !

I found in the 50 cal Disc Rifle 110 grains of granulated 777 3FG with a Hornady 250 SST was about perfect . And in the 45 Disc Rifle the same charge with the Hornady 200 grain SST was just as good !

It has been suggested to me that I should use 3f in my Sharps .54. The guy who suggested it to me said he had a problem with key-holing using 2f 777 till he switched to the 3f 777, and that solved the problem? My thought would have been air bubbles in the bullets as the cause?