CCI Mini Mags, 'Fail' on rabbits??

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have been using the old Winchester Power Points for the past 15 years or so with great success. I heard on this site that the CC! Mini Mags were pretty good performers, so I tried a couple of packs. They are fractionally more accurate and I am on my second plastic tray of 100.

Yesterday I finally took them hunting on rabbits with disappointing results. Two were hit squarely with chest shots and rolled a couple of times. (it is summer here and I wasn't after meat as it is too hot to bother skinning, etc, just trying to cut the numbers down for the farmer). Ten seconds or so later, they were up and off! No way would they have survived, but the dogs missed out on a bit of a snack. One was hit in the back of the head, dropped forward and was still for about ten seconds, then tore off out of sight.

The Mini Mags must be blowing upon the hide is all I can think of. Premium cost for less than stellar performance as far as I can see it.

The rifle is a 1977 built Brno (CZ) Model 2 and it hasn't missed a beat in the 35 years and the thousands upon thousands of rounds that I have shot through it.

Has anyone else had these problems?

[Outpost75]

Your rabbits down under are larger like European hares, and not wimpy wabbit like our cottontails.

But even on our cottontail rabbits I prefer a low velocity, flatnosed .32 S&W Long, 98-grain bullet at about 850 fps to any .22 rimfire. LR solids zip through, causing little damage, whereas. 22LR or. 22 WMR hollowpoints bloodshot too much meat.

The relined Army & Navy CS rook rifle in .32 Long is quieter, kills the bunnies outright, and you can eat right up to the bullet hole.

Works on larger critters too.

[waksupi]

For small game, I file a small flat on the tip of the .22.

[tacklebury]

Are you talking about minimag solids or HP's. I only like the HP's personally. I've recovered them in bodies of squirrels shot head to tail and was just under the skin. It was just over .375" in diameter and I never had a rabbit get back up guaranteed out to 100 yards. It's the only bullet I use for small game unless I run out. I'm down to my last 100 due to the shortage here. 8(

[dhain]

I agree that the HPs are the only way to go.

[John Allen]

I use sgb ones. (Small game bullet). They are good performers on rabbits. They have a flat tip

[Four Fingers of Death]

They are hollowpoints. The small game bullet might be the go, I forgot about that. I also have a 25/20 and a 32/20, which might be useful. The old Brno with Power Points has been the go to combination for rabbits for many years. I bought a couple of boxes earlier today.

[NSB]

Must be really tough rabbits down under. I once shot 27 rabbits in a nuisance kill that were all shot with .22lr BB caps (round ball with primer only for propellant) and none got away. I do have to say though that most were shot under twenty yards and some at ten to twenty feet.

[Four Fingers of Death]

As they were all moving about and I wasn't worried about meat damage, they were offhand chest shots. They must have died shortly afterwards as the bullet must have blown up on the fur. The only one I recovered didn't have a visible wound (I didn't look too hard,just threw it on the side of the road for the farmer to pick up for the dogs. It was a texas heart shot as it was rear on to me. He tumbled once and never moved again.

I have some left, so I will take them out and compare them to the new Power Points with the 42Gn bullet to give them a fair test.

Once I get rimfire ammo that suits, I like to buy a heap of it. My old Powerpoints that I have a few boxes of are the remainder of a slab of 5000. They worked well, but no sense moaning about the fact that they don't make them anymore.

[Doc_Stihl]

My experience with MiniMags is they don't expand on small game well. The HP is too small. Like shooting a RN solid.

[fouronesix]

Better watch out, Aussie wabbits are vewy, vewy tuff!

[tacklebury]

Hmm poor expansion must have been why last opening season for squirrels I got all 5 of these to fill my bag with 1 shot 1 kills in under an hour.

96743

And this guy here must be why they don't stop em. I head shot him at almost 100 yards about 90 paces. He never even dropped his nut... ;)

96744

[Uncle R.]

This thread brings back memories.
<
I read somewhere years ago that Power Points were excellent for "large" small game and were the way to go if you were pushing the boundaries of .22 long rifle killing power.
<
They weren't common in my area but I ran across some at a gun show and bought a couple of bricks based on what I had read. I found the accuracy a bit disappointing and I still have most of that ammo on my shelf. Mini Mags either solid or hollow are significantly more accurate for me, and better suited for my rimfire hunting which skews heavily toward head shots on squirrels.
<
In some parts of Wisconsin we have big snowshoe hares that I suspect are close to Mick's Aussie rabbits. They run up to maybe four times the size of a cottontail and I guess you could say they're pushing the limit for animals you should hunt with a .22 long rifle. If I ever go chasing them on purpose I'll dig out some of those Power Points, but I don't know if that will happen. In my limited experience their meat is so rubbery tough as to be unfit for human consumption.
<
Uncle R.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Brits used to hang the hares for several days until it was just about off before slow cooking it in a stew. That would tenderise it a bit. I have a Paco Kelly 22 tool to alter the tips of 22LR bullets. Might dig that out and have a play.

[tacklebury]

I see, never killed snow shoes as we don't have any or at least not many here in MI. Cotton tails drop like a bag of rocks. I hit em running and they just fold. ;) I do have to put a couple into coon usually as they are some tough guys. I actually carry my pistol loaded with lead solids, so they don't expand so fast and usually knock the coon down, then deliver a head shot to finish with the pistol if needed. Last coon I got was 80 pounds. Nearly took all my strength carrying that bugger out. Even with gloves he kept slipping out of my grip. He had nearly a 3" thick layer of fat. heh

[Bullshop]

The RF shortage has had no effect on me. I do not own a 22 rf or any other rf. The two Ruger single six revolvers I own have been converted to cf. I don't feel the least bit put out by it. On the contrary I am quite happy to load boolits in 22 cf for the same purpose.
My 22 ccm and 221 fb have the bases covered. Both guns are far cheaper to load for in the same power range than the cost of a similar number of rf rounds.
With one grain of powder in the 22 ccm I can out perform a 22 lr. With 2 grain of powder in the 22 fb it can equal a 22 mag in power.
Top end boolit loads for each cartridge use 7 grain of powder for the 22 ccm for 2000 fps with a 55gn boolit and about 16 grain of powder in the 221 fb for about 2500 fps with the same boolit.
The 22 ccm does well for the full power range without gas checks. How much more economical can it get.
If more power is needed than the 22s can deliver then a step up in caliber is the way. Jump up to 24 caliber and shoot a 100 grain boolit at 2000 fps and you have the capability to engage much larger targets than rabbits with very little increase in ammunition cost. Another favorite of mine for similar performance is a Marlin 357 mag. Cheap to load if you make the boolits and quite an efficient package.
I guess I have veered off from topic of what works in a rf to what works for me but maybe it has a place here too.

[Bullshop]

80 pound coon!!!
I would like to get some of those on my stretchers. Here in south western Mt. from what I have seen so far a big coon is maybe 20 pound. Smaller for sure but right now a very nice fur. I just stretched one yesterday and it is a very heavy fur.
We have here several kinds of rabbits. There are pigmy and cotton tail rabbits as well as snow shoe, white tail jack, and black tail jack hairs. The jacks are quite large and take a bit more whack than the rabbits and my Marlin 357 mag is obliging.

[tacklebury]

Yep. I'm 6ft and couldn't hold it up where it didn't drag on the ground. I kept switching hands, but by the time I made it back to my Jeep I could barely hold the steering wheel. My hands hurt bad. ;)

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have been experimenting with Hornet level loads in my 222 Rem788, using an old tin of 680 powder and 46Gn Winchester HP Hornet Bullets. These would go nicely in my Savage 222.20Ga combo. I have a group buy mould in 22 which would go well with a softish boolit and moderate velocity. Sort of like a 22LR with a 60Gn boolit.

[rollmyown]

I agree rabbits are tuff. Head shots take the toughness out of them regardless of what ammo you use.
I normally only body shoot them if the head is not visible, That way it's usually a clean miss or one in the bag.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'll just have to keep doing it until I get it right! haha!

[Pepe Ray]

for 4F/death;
I'd give some time and focus on the Paco Kelley tool. Which version is it? IE, how many diameter choices do you have?
The Olympic Shooting commities have pulled out much hair trying to find out why ..22 R.F. can't compete w/CF.
Pepe Ray

[Four Fingers of Death]

It is the two holer version, 223 and 224. There is three punches, one forms (or evens up) a hollowpoint, the Nasti Nose punch and one that converts a solid bullet into a flat point with a concave dished nose. I felt that it had a plain flat pointer as well, but I can't find that one at the moment (if in fact it actually exists).

I had a bit of a play with the Accurizer in my 22LR target pistols some time back with mixed results. My old Browning Medallist responded with slightly better accuracy, but then had the odd feeding hic-cup. I now only use my Ciener 1911 conversion and it seems to run well on Remington Bucket O' Bullets, which are dirt cheap and I am no longer competing seriously so the BO'Bs will do. These might make cheap hunting ammo in the Brno with a bit of Paco Accurizering.

I must try Accurizing some cheap HV Round Nose bullets as this was the original intention of the tool. Keeping poor folk fed on cheap ammo. I ain't poor, but I'm a pensioner and in the neighbourhood!

[tacklebury]

Lately, I've been using 46 gr Winchester HP in my .223 with 4.2 gr unique. Deadly accurate and closer to .22 Mag at 1425fps. Might work well in the 222 also. ;)

[Pepe Ray]

4F/death;
I have the same model PKA. as you have. My intensions were strictly for accurizing, never function related. I have no interest in semi-autos smaller than .45cal.
I believe P.K. has a newer model which swages 4 diff. sizes.
My concern is that the energy required in it's function is by "impact", which is not practically controlled. IE variable.
I'm working on a method of use by utilizing the "Consistant Crimp Torque Wrench" sold by Titan.
Still working on how to attach it to my Rock Chucker.
Pepe Ray

[Larry in MT]

My old Powerpoints that I have a few boxes of are the remainder of a slab of 5000. They worked well, but no sense moaning about the fact that they don't make them anymore.

Where did you hear they don't make them anymore? I buy several thousand every year ---- This year, like all of the other brands, they are still on backorder; supposed to deliver in April. If I wanted to pay terribly high prices, I could get some right away.

[bigdog454]

Head shots don't leave blood trails!!!
BD

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mounting the tool in a press and using the Consistent Crimp is a good idea. It would probably be easier to use the PKA to find the diameter it prefers and then making up a die.

An easier way would be to use an arbour press, that way you could just use the PKA, but you wouldn't be able to use the Consistent Crimp. Having said all of that, with a consistent rap from a piece of wood / soft hammer whatever, you get pretty consistent results, provided that you are consistent.

[220]

Once I get rimfire ammo that suits, I like to buy a heap of it. My old Powerpoints that I have a few boxes of are the remainder of a slab of 5000. They worked well, but no sense moaning about the fact that they don't make them anymore.
They still make the original 40gr PowerPoint as well as the new 42gr PowerPoint max. When they introduced the max loading they changed the packageing on the original 40gr loading to the same black colour as the 42. If your looking for the old orange box you won't find it.
If your looking for a CCI loading that betters the performance of the original PP, the velocitors are worth a try 40gr HP at over 1400fps.
I would be almost certain the lost rabbits were due to limited expansion or placement not being quite where you thought. Ive had quite a few head shot rabbits over the years come back to life after being thrown in the back of the ute. Closer inspection normally reveals I've grazed the top of the head knocking them unconscious or stunning them.

[brotherdarrell]

I have used the Paco Kelly tool quite a bit
96884

Results vary depending on the gun and the ammo used. If it were me I would use the hollow point insert to just true up the hp on the mini-mags and open them up a little. The other two inserts I have found limited use for.

I also quit "whacking" early on. Not that I thought it was dangerous, just in-consistent. I got an arbor press from Harbor Freight and replaced the lock screw with a longer bolt to use and an adjustable stop to get consistency.

96885

My experience over the last couple years is that sub-sonic/standard velocity ammo with the hp opened up a tad is about as good as you can get. Most full grown Jacks, with a chest shot, just kind of go 'OOF' and slowly fall over dead. The big grey rock squirrels are pretty much dead on contact with no exit.

Darrell

[fouronesix]

If I were serious about wabbit (hare) control and felt "under gunned", I might lean more toward a 22 Hornet or 17 Hornet- especially in today's market of limited and/or expensive rimfire ammo. And you never know, "doz wabbits can be vewy, vewy danguwus". :roll:

[Pepe Ray]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the thread.

To me there are two distinctly separate issues here. OTOH we have the question of accuracy and how to achieve it in the various .22LR chambers.
Then there is the issue of boolet performance at the target.

For my part I'd try to solve the problems in two different projects, begining with accuracy.

That which seems to be causing the confusion, in this discussion, is the use of the same tool in both experiments.
In using the tool (PKA), manually, we introduce he probability of more human error than I find necessary. If I find that the Consistant Crimp torque wrench to be as sloppy as I am with a mallet, I will be very dissapointed and surprised.

All that being said I still have the problem of fixing the tool adapter to my R.C.

So many problems, so little time.
Pepe Ray

[JeffinNZ]

I have used Mini Mags for years and found them to be very good on rabbits. Maybe something has changed.

[shtur]

I've used CCI mini mag HP's on rockchucks, cottontails, and snowshoe hares with excellent results. A possibility may be you received a bad lot of CCI that slipped through quality control.

[L Ross]

With all due respect, has anyone here ever seen a 22 l.r. or any type "blow up" on rabbit fur or hide? I cannot imagine one blowing up on deer hide frankly.

Duke

[Four Fingers of Death]

You are no doubt correct Duke, didn't think that one through. More likely total penetration due to short range.

I took the Paco Kelly Accurizer to the range yesterday and fired a lot of groups with and without use of the tool with five different types of ammo. Our targets have five aiming points and most were shot, some 12_13 groups in all.

As I was about to write ammo details on the targets, a visitor from a nearby club came over to thank me for having him. Our club was formed by Hunters and while we do a bit of competition, we are, essentially concerned with zeroing and working out loads and practising with our hunting rifles. His club is a strict benchrest club and only allow 30mins a month for general and only allow one round to be loaded at a time. He was so happy about finally getting his 7600 / 308W and his 22LR bunny rifle sorted and one our members offered to take him deer hunting, he blabbed on for ages. By the time he said his goodbyes, I had totally forgot which group was which, D'Oh!!! Back to the drawing board and mark the targets first next time!

[tacklebury]

That stinks man. Have done similar stuff previously. lol

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yep, bit of a pain, but he was so happy, I don't want to interrupt him. When I turned back to the targets, my mind went totall blank! haha, old timers disease.

I will plan the session in advance next time and have all of the targets labelled before I go to the range.

[L Ross]

Four Fingers of Death, I wish I could find my Paco Tool. I don't know if I loaned it out or simply misplaced it. (Talk about seniornility) But back when I could find it I really liked the cup nose rod and swedging them up to .225". I never tried them in a semi auto to know if they'd feed but shooting them from a single shot at squirrels impressed me with their lethality. Just how heavy are those hares of yours?

Duke

[Four Fingers of Death]

My Paco tool went to ground for a few years as well, haha! Rabbits are normal size. I reckon the ones that got up and ran must have had complete penetration. I bowled them clean and they were still when they landed, but they were up and off shortly afterwards. As it was hot, I wasn't worried about head shots as I wasn't keeping them for meat, have to be more careful next time. Any bullet in the head works a treat.

[northmn]

We have a jack rabbit that turns white in the winter in Western MN that is a bit larger than a snowshoe mayb weighing in at 10 pounds or so, and a very tough critter. I used to hunt them when I was younger as they were a plains hare and permitted very long range shooting. I remember one I got with a 222 at about 250 yards. I shot and saw the dirt fly behind the rabbit and it took off. Looked up and told my hunting buddy that I at least came close as I thought I missed. He said you sure did and when I looked back it was kicking. That load blew out the rib cage on the off side and the thing ran about 80 paces. Did not think there was that much blood in a rabbit. They took a lot of shooting with a 22LR and some even ran with hits from a 22WMR unless head shot. Were I to hunt those large jackrabbits with a 22LR I would likely use something like the CCI Velociter and more likely my 22 magnum lever.

DP

[yoter]

Been using CCI Mini Mag HPs for years in rifles and pistols. Put many rabbits and squirrels in the pot using this ammo.

[Four Fingers of Death]

They don't seem happy with my Brno Model 2, so I have gone back to Winchester Power Points and back to 100% success rate. The Brno didn't like Velocitors either. My Norinco 1911 with the Ciener conversion slide will gobble up all of the small change.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

If you are not worried about meat damage, have you tried the CCI Stingers? They don't have much for penetration. I see CCI also now has a 32 gr Segmented hollow point. I've never seen it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm toying with the idea of buying a Ruger 22LR for hunting and leaving the Brno for the learners on the range to save fiddling with the scope all of the time. If that happens, I will try them all, but until then I will stick with the Power Points as they and the Brno are a great match.

[JeffinNZ]

Hard to beat those Aussie Powerpoints.

[Four Fingers of Death]

They have served me well over the years.

[w5pv]

We use headlights and hunt the bunnies at night.I have killed untold numbers with a single shot 22 and shorts.We have cottontails and swamp rabbits(cane cutters)here more swamp rabbits than cottontails,swamp rabbits are bigger than cottontails.

[Smoke4320]

bought me some Aussie Powerpoints and dang they spun counterclockwise :) :) must be that north of the equator effect :) :)

[Changeling]

For small game, I file a small flat on the tip of the .22.

Thats exactly right, a small flat point (HV) will provide more shock and penetration combined (Especially penetration) than any HP ! But some/lot just don't seem to get it. Somewhere in there world they think a .22 HP is going to do it all, LOL! Heck, they aren't even as accurate.

For those that have a devise that cuts the flat on the nose of a loaded round, be very sure that the flat you cut is perpendicutlar to the bullet every time!

[Arisaka99]

I played with a PKA at one point. I ended up actually taking the dish- nosed punch and running that in first, then taking the HP punch and making a dish nosed hollow point. Never tried them on game, but I imagine they would do well.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

bought me some Aussie Powerpoints and dang they spun counterclockwise :) :) must be that north of the equator effect :) :)

[smilie=l:

Four Fingers, out of interest what was the terrain like with the bullet proof bunny's?
One big thing I've noticed rabbits living in open granite country seem a lot hardier than ones in bush land.
At times we've take rabbits in open granite, they're harder to kill not to mention skinning the buggers. Two blokes tug-of-war trying to peel a blooming rabbit. Yet on the same property go to bush land with in a km, easy to skin and they'd drop easier too.

For a long time I too would use Power Points and nothing else in the Lithgow 1B. Very reliable bullet.

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's interesting Lt Frank, it is open grazing land with a creek running through it (where the bunnies in question were located), not very rocky.