I found a load my pistol loves!

[tazman]

The inserted picture is of a target I shot last Friday at a local gun shop/indoor range. I knew the revolver would shoot fairly well but I wasn't expecting this.
Taurus 627 tracker-6in ported barrel-4.2 grains WINCHESTER SUPER TARGET(WST)-158 grain round nose(Lyman 358311)- water dropped wheelweights- sized .357.
38 special cases fired in a 357 magnum pistol.
I do not recommend this load to be used in a 38 special revolver as the Hodgdon data site says it is too hot for 38 special.
Range was 10 yards
I know you can't see them all, but there were 10 shots fired into that target.
Group size was .8 inches outside edge to outside edge.
For once all my shakes cancelled out.

96549

[rintinglen]

Yee-ha! That'll get 'er done. that 358-311 is one of the most accurate boolits for use in a 38. I shot 50 of them some years back versus 50 H&G #50 WC boolits from a tricked out Python. The Wadcutters won by a smidgeon, but they were both much tighter groups than the keith 358-429. Others have written that the round nose worked better for them, and I'll not call them wrong.

[Hickok]

That had to bring a big smile!
My wife says she can tell how well my results were when I come back from the range, just by the way I act! Must be women's intuition!!!

[tacklebury]

Nice shooting 8)

[Skunk1]

No better feeling. Warmer weather coming our way next week. Can't wait to go out.

[denul]

Which lube did you use?

[str8shot426]

Good shooting.. I am also a fan of the round nose lyman. I have a 358430 150gr. It is discontinued. But get very good results in my taurus 66. My best group was with alliant 2400.

[tazman]

Which lube did you use?

I used a 50/50 lube that I bought on eBay. I have been using it in my Lyman 45 sizer. Seems to do an excellent job for both my 357mag and 9mm. After following the sticky recommendations here for the 9mm and revolver setups I have had NO problems with leading at all. I have tried some Lee liquid alox but it doesn't seem to make a difference as far as leading or accuracy.
I have a couple of boolits that drop so that I don't need to size them. On those I use the Lee lube to save time. I tried them both ways but it doesn't matter to the target.

[Dale53]

I shot the 358311 in the quick load stage when shooting PPC "back in the day". I have a nice Lyman 4 cavity mould for it (no, it's not for sale). However, I am not a fan of a bullet that doesn't cut a clean hole in paper or animal. It's not very useful to me. I would much rather use a SWC, a full wadcutter, or a WFN or WLN. I want the same bullet I would use in the field, for the most part, and full wadcutters work just fine on edible small game which is more than I can say about the round nosed bullets.

Just a personal bias against round nose bullets...

FWIW
Dale53

[tazman]

I'm not overly concerned about how clean the hole is, just where it is.
I won't be hunting small or large game so no worries there. I am unlikely to be in competitive shooting either as I am not a particularly good shot.
The posted target was a one time affair, although that boollet does perform consistently well in my revolver.
What I need at this time is a load that shoots to point of aim if I do my job. I am still learning to shoot properly and accurately so this load should fit my needs just fine.

[osteodoc08]

Good shooting. Now back that target out some and keep improving!

[tazman]

Good shooting. Now back that target out some and keep improving!

That's my plan

[jonp]

I'm glad you posted the powder and load. I don't hear much about WST and always wondered how it would do.

Good Shooting.

[tazman]

I'm glad you posted the powder and load. I don't hear much about WST and always wondered how it would do.

Good Shooting.

The newly revamped Hodgdon data site lists the load I used as too hot. It worked for me because I was using it in a 357 magnum revolver. I would not recommend this load for a 38 special revolver.

[jonp]

The newly revamped Hodgdon data site lists the load I used as too hot. It worked for me because I was using it in a 357 magnum revolver. I would not recommend this load for a 38 special revolver.

Indeed. When seeing an interesting load on any forum always check the books/powder manu's website first, reduce 10% and approach with caution. Thanks for the reminder. All of my pistols are 357Mag.

[44MAG#1]

There is always someone like me around but:
How many times say out of ten can you shoot a group like that or very close to it?
I don,t pay much attention to a single or even a couple super groups to decide about what a load shot offhand or off the bench can do.
It is what a gun, shooter and ammo can do the majority of the time that really determines what the gun+shooter+ammo can do to equal the "accuracy".
I've seen poor shooters shoot a single or a couple really, really good groups but were poor shots overall.
It is called "sloppy pooling" them in.

[tazman]

You are quite right, there is always some one like you around.
I stated that my shakes had cancelled each other out and that I wasn't expecting that group.
With my old eyes, being able to see well enough to shoot like that is a day to day thing. At least it happened for me once.

In your defense, I once saw someone shoot a single bullet into a target and try to claim smallest group with it.

[44MAG#1]

Did not mean to upset you but to keep people grounded in shooting ability.
I am over 61 years old (it is years old not years young as some like to call it to make themselves feel better).
I have done the same thing and then was unpleasantly suprized when I found out that I was just "lucky" that day.
That is the reason I went by what I could do on the average and not what me or the load could do once in a great while.
It keeps me, only me, more grounded in reality.
That is the true test.
I have trouble seeing the sights too. So, I am not a stranger to getting older and realizing my limitations.
You, as a free willed citizen, have the right to believe the way you want and to set values for yourself as you see fit.

Have a wonderful day.

[jmort]

Tazman, I'm feeling for you. Post group with specific info and data, most useful, and also include disclaimer/proviso and yet you get nonsense post in thread. Thanks for O/P and thread. Nice to have success regardless of frequency. I don't golf, but if I got a hole-in-one, I would be thrilled and not concerned that it did not happen everyday, I would just enjoy the hole-in-one.

[tazman]

You only upset me for a moment. At age 62 I hope I am a bit more in control of myself than to have a bad day because of what some one said. I have seen excellent pistol shots and know I am not one of them. Beyond the stated 10 yard my eyes are bad enough that my groups go to pieces. I am not certain I could hit a deer at 25 yards.
As it happens I have fired that load since then just for confirmation and the group size was the same or only marginally larger.

I found another load yesterday at the other end of the load range that nearly matches it. The new Lee 95 rf bullet designed for the 9mm. My mold drops it at .359 so I can size it to .357-.358 for my revolver. I loaded it over 3 grains of Titegroup and it shot nearly as well.

[44MAG#1]

Looks like it may be time to "bite the bullet" and go to a dot sight.
No need to try to fake not getting old and continue with irons if they are a problem.
I still shoot irons but like the dot sights and regular scopes better on a handgun.
Of course "facing the music" is what it takes.

[tazman]

44Mag#1 wrote:Looks like it may be time to "bite the bullet" and go to a dot sight.

What exactly are you referring to when you mention a dot sight? I am not certain what I am thinking of is what you actually mean. I am not acquainted with all the recent developments(last 10 or 15 years) in sighting systems.

As far as scopes, I never did like the feel of a scope on a handgun. Seemed to destroy the balance and handling for me.

I am more than willing to use anything that will improve my shooting. Since I didn't expect to shoot much farther than across the length of my house I haven't been too concerned about distance beyond 10 yards. I could certainly be talked into a sighting system that would help me reach beyond my current limits, particularly on something like a Ruger blackhawk where I wouldn't use it in a defense scenario anyway.

[44MAG#1]

An Ultra Dot sight or one of the holo sights.
Nothing to me is as good as a 2 power scope.
I will give up balance for being able to hit the target at more than spitting distances.
When you arrive at the age where everything starts going downhill you have to make choices.
Put up with it or compensate for it and have at it.
A good dot sight either tube type or heads up (holographic) is nice.

[tazman]

An Ultra Dot sight or one of the holo sights.
Nothing to me is as good as a 2 power scope.
I will give up balance for being able to hit the target at more than spitting distances.
When you arrive at the age where everything starts going downhill you have to make choices.
Put up with it or compensate for it and have at it.
A good dot sight either tube type or heads up (holographic) is nice.

I have never seen a dot sight like what you refer to. I guess I am going to have to do some research. Maybe I can find some one in the vicinity that uses such optics and see how they work for me.
My biggest problem is my local gun shop is nearly 60 miles away. My shooting range is nearly 90.

[44MAG#1]

www.ultradotusa.com. 30 MM dot sight???????????

MidwayUSA

[tazman]

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

[jonp]

You are quite right, there is always some one like you around.
I stated that my shakes had cancelled each other out and that I wasn't expecting that group.
With my old eyes, being able to see well enough to shoot like that is a day to day thing. At least it happened for me once.

In your defense, I once saw someone shoot a single bullet into a target and try to claim smallest group with it.

Only once?

[jonp]

I should think that one group like that a day was pretty near enough proof to me that the load works well in that pistol. If you had take 2 or 3 shots and posted it that would have been one thing but 10 shots is not luck imho. If it did it once then it will do it again if you do your part. The gun is capable.

[jonp]

www.ultradotusa.com. 30 MM dot sight???????????

MidwayUSA
There are a bunch of companies that make ultra dots and good ones too. I'd suggest buying one of the cheap Chinese knockoffs at a gunshow and try it to see if that is what you like before dropping several hundred dollars on one.

[44MAG#1]

Ultra dot has a good reputation and they don't cost several hundred dollars. Depending what you call several hundred though.
If his eyes are like he says they are then he will like one. It will help him shoot at longer distances and will be more of an encouragement to him to venture out to longer distances.
Yes I have know of people shooting a couple good groups when lady luck was sitting on their shoulder.
That is the reason I said it is what one can do over a period of time with their shooting.
If you don't believe me you haven't spent much time at a public range or haven't observed many people shooting.
Now I will admit that 10 shots in a row in a small group is a good indication that things are well and good, but for myself I like more proof.
It is too easy to jump the gun, and, I never consider one or two small groups indicative as to what I can do on the average just like I don't let one or two bad groups be indicative as to what I can do either.
I try to be more precise as to my true abilities just like one should be with their shooting.
It is what it is.
Oh yes, this says it all. "I stated that my shakes had cancelled each other out and that I wasn't expecting that group."
If you see your sights moving quite a bit and you still shoot a group like that, that should speak volumes to you so loudly you need your ear plugs and muffs both on to keep it from popping your eardrums when it speaks.
Again, it is what it is. But sometimes it isn't what it seems either.

[tazman]

As it happens I repeated the same test yesterday at the same range. The results were nearly identical. Less than 1/4 inch larger.
Seems the pistol really does like the load.
I also had a group roughly the same size using the new Lee 356-95-rf which surprised me a little. This one was loaded to midrange 38 special loads according to the Lyman cast bullet handbook.

[tazman]

jonp wrote:There are a bunch of companies that make ultra dots and good ones too. I'd suggest buying one of the cheap Chinese knockoffs at a gunshow and try it to see if that is what you like before dropping several hundred dollars on one.

I may try that suggestion. I am not too thrilled about dropping half the price of my pistol on sight that I may or may not like. If it works it would be no problem.
My thing is, at the moment I don't really expect to need to shoot it beyond 10 yards as that is the distance from my kitchen to the front door of my house.

[44MAG#1]

Ultra Dot is a brand of sight.
If 10 yards is all you are ever going to shoot I would leave well enough alone and stick to iron sights.
At 10 yards one could practice enough that real aiming is not really needed to hit the chest area of a man in a home invasion scenario.
Just look over the sights and make like Matt Dillon.

[tazman]

44mag#1 wrote: Just look over the sights and make like Matt Dillon.

Now that is a funny thought. Practical but funny none the less.
I am working on the practicing enough part.

[jonp]

You would, of course, need a hat and a tie down rig.
I dont know what a good one costs. Just that cheap chinese ones are cheap and a good way to test drive one without dropping a hundred? 2 hundred?

[tazman]

I would look really intimidating with my overweight belly over the belt wouldn't I?

[John Van Gelder]

At age 70 and a handgun shooter for 50+ years, I can say for a certitude that some days are better than others. There is also some value in one shot groups.. since the first shot is the one that counts. Just for fun shoot a single shot on a target, then save that target for your next shooting session, repeat over time and then measure the group.

[tazman]

Now that is an interesting concept. I may need to do that just to see what happens.

[John Van Gelder]

Finding a good load for your particular firearm can be a bit problematic, a number of the reloading manuals list accuracy loads, but on the other hand they use a pressure test barrel, so the results are not very representative of revolvers. Sometimes finding the right powder, charge, bullet design, weight, alloy, lubricant, primer, etc. becomes a matter of luck. Probably the best of all hand loaders tools is a good set of notes, the ones you generate during load development.


I have reloaded a lot of different cartridges over the last 50+ years, it seems like some will work and work well with almost any combination, while others are a bit more challenging. One that has been a bit more work is the .45ACP /Ruger Blackhawk combination. In this application the cartridge case truly has to head space on the mouth of the case or you do not get reliable/any ignition.


I bought the Blackhawk back in 1975, and did not do much with the ACP cylinder, I was in Alaska then and did more with the Colt cartridge, large doses of H110 and a 340 gr. Bullet.


After I retired and had the time to work on loads for the ACP cylinder, I was rather disappointed with the unreliable ignition. The problem was traced back to a lot of variation in the length of .45ACP cases. This produced some head scratching, since I had loaded thousands of .45s for the auto pistol with no such difficulties. In spite of the age old admonitions about the auto guns head spacing on the case mouth, the autos work quite well with almost any case length because the extractor holds the case up against the bolt face.


Another interesting fact is that for as long as I can remember, the trim to length number for the .45 ACP has been .895, I noticed in the newer manuals it is listed as .888. I sat down with my micrometer and a three pound coffee can full of .45ACP brass. I never did find one that was .895.


I sorted my brass into two containers, stuff that was .890 or better, for the Ruger and the shorter stuff for the auto.


My accuracy loads for that cartridge/gun combination are those that will produce a hole in the paper every time I pull the trigger.