Reloading for my 50-70 trap door

[Old Iron Sights]

Picked this model 1868 up recently to round out my American military collection. Rifle is in fabulous shape so I want to shoot it occasionally. I don't have any issues using BP but I was wondering if bp substitutes like triple 7 are ok. I'm thinking of the lee 515 mold. I haven't slugged the bore yet but the muzzle mics at .508. Not sure if that's accurate so I will slug soon. Probably will need a sizer anyway. Reloading components seem to be in stock so I'm going to be placing an order as soon as I have it slugged. Any tips are appreciated.
96495

96496

[johnson1942]

if you want to shoot a blackpowder sub they are are like black powder that leave residue except one. that is blackhorn 209 powder. it is very clean and if it is safe in your gun thats what i would use. i would clean up after shooting as it isnt perfect but you wont have to clean between shoots. their is nothing more accurate than blackpowder except blackhorn 209 is also very accurate. it is 15 percent stronger than black powder. you may want to throw out the question if it safe in your fine old gun. i know that many who shoot 45/70/s use blackhorn 209 powder. at all ranges and it is very accurate for them. it would be really fun loading and shooting your gun. what twist does it have? i suspect quite slow. that would keep the bullet lighter and be more comfortable to shoot. let us know what you do and how it shoots.

[Battis]

I use the Lee .515450 mold and FFG black powder. Great gun to shoot.
Check out this info:
http://singleshotexchange.com/handloading-the-50-70-for-a.html

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1185/1

[Don McDowell]

OI, check with the old guy that works at the Western History Center, he also casts bullets and has a couple of offerings for the 50 cal.
Trip 7 doesn't give much for accuracy from a cartridge gun, and it will eat the brass. Pressure runs a bit high with that stuff as well. PM me if you need a line on some black.

[Old Iron Sights]

Slugged the bore and it indeed appears to be a 508 groove. The lee 510 sizer may be ok if I can get the 515 boolit through it. Pretty stoked about the condition of the bore. Sharp and shiny.
96578

[Bullshop]

Nice! But it has a blue tint to it. Is your camera on ******?

[Old Iron Sights]

Probably the LED bore light.

[john hayslip]

I loaded some rounds for a 32-40 with 777 shortly after it same out. Had all sorts of corrosion problems with it. All lots of verdigris on in and outside of the cases and quit using it for cases. On as couple of them I had case separations. I'd use Pyrodex as it's been used in cartridges for a long time. Saw one in similar shape at the Pasadena, Texas gunshow this month. Nice rifle.

[john hayslip]

Didn't I read where Mike Venturino said that the original load for the 50-70 was a 300 grain bullet. I used a 525 gr in a rolling block carbine I made up and it turned my shoulder black and blue when firing it trying to file the front sight down to proper height. He said the first one he got he had reamed to 50-90 so he could shoot a heavier bullet and regretted it.

[John Allen]

That is a good looking trapdoor. It looks like a 3rd allan conversion. The 525 is a nice bullet for these. I use black myself with these. Make sure you put a cookie lube after the bullet between two wads. It makes a world of difference in my opinion with keeping the fouling soft.

[Old Iron Sights]

Yeah, been making lube cookies for years for my cap and ball revolvers. mutton tallow, bees wax, some paraffin for hardness and a little lee liquid alox.

Paid $535 shipped to my door. Hope that wasn't too bad of a deal.

[Bullshop]

I had the good fortune of spending some time in Fairview MT/N Dakota. It is at the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers. There are two old forts there on each side of the state line, Fort Beauford and Fort Union.
Fort Union is in the painting from C Russell titled "The Wagon Master". The fort looks pretty much the same today.
Anyway hunting some dog towns in the area I was surprised and elated to find boolits of the calibers in use at the time the forts were needed. The 50/70 boolits are 450gn with a very small hollow cavity in the base. I have a very nice collection of both the 405 and 500gn 45/70 boolits as well as 50/70, 45 Colt and 44/40. In over all shape/profile the Lyman 515141 is close to original but I think the lube grooves are different.

[Don McDowell]

Didn't I read where Mike Venturino said that the original load for the 50-70 was a 300 grain bullet. .

I doubt it, or if you did it was probably a misprint, the bullet for that 50-70 has pretty steadily been from 425-480 grs, depending on who was loading it and whether it was a patched or naked bullet.

[StrawHat]

The bore on an original barrel will have three grooves and lands, this makes it a bit harder to mike for a dimension. I have an 1866 and use the boolits as cast from the Lyman and the Lee mold. Lube with a good BP lube, fill the case with powder and prime with a large rifle primer. Seat the boolit and you are good to go. The subs can work but with it so easy to use the original gunpowder, why bother.

[John in PA]

Lyman 515141 at nominal 425 grains comes very close to duplicating the military bullet. Cast 1:20 tin:lead, (no antimony) Size to .515 and lube with SPG or similar. SR4759 makes an excellent powder choice, look up loads (in the mid-20's if I recall). May want a tuft of polyester fiberfill to keep powder down by the primer. Moderate crimp. Clean burning, safe pressures.

OR: About 65 grains Grade 1 1/2 Swiss (black). Magnum primer. High enough in the case to allow at least modest compression when seating, firm crimp. blow tube between shots.

Fine looking rifle, and will be tons of fun to shoot!! :grin:

[John in PA]

I use the Lee .515450 mold and FFG black powder. Great gun to shoot.
Check out this info:
http://singleshotexchange.com/handloading-the-50-70-for-a.html

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1185/1

Great review article from the Exchange! Thanks for posting!

[concho]

Yes Thanks for the post ! concho

[John in PA]

I was disappointed to see the comments in the Exchange article regarding current molds from Lyman with the original number (515141) of a classic design NOT casting to original specs. I have a 515141 mold that's maybe 15-20 years old (previous version of the orange plastic box) and I checked some as-cast bullets. They run .516-.517, as they should. They weigh approx 446gr, which is as they should, since the bullet was designed to be a close approximation of the original armory bullet of 450 gr. To hear that they now cut a molt that casts .512 or less, weighs only 425gr, WITHOUT CHANGING THE NUMBER is disturbing. Can others confirm that this is the case? Makes me unwilling to trust Lyman if trying to acquire a current mold of a heritage design!

[varsity07840]

I was disappointed to see the comments in the Exchange article regarding current molds from Lyman with the original number (515141) of a classic design NOT casting to original specs. I have a 515141 mold that's maybe 15-20 years old (previous version of the orange plastic box) and I checked some as-cast bullets. They run .516-.517, as they should. They weigh approx 446gr, which is as they should, since the bullet was designed to be a close approximation of the original armory bullet of 450 gr. To hear that they now cut a molt that casts .512 or less, weighs only 425gr, WITHOUT CHANGING THE NUMBER is disturbing. Can others confirm that this is the case? Makes me unwilling to trust Lyman if trying to acquire a current mold of a heritage design!

I'm not sure about what size current 515141 moulds cast, but according to Mike Ventorino, the largest sizing die they now make is .512. It stands to reason that the mould would be closer to .512
than .516. Both of my .50-70s are 3 groove originals so I've always used the Lee .515 Government which runs oversize. I run them thru a .517 Rapine sizing die. Ray told me that 3 groove liners supplied by the government for Sharps carbines and barrels for TD's had progressive depth rifling and so I should go with .517. My carbine and '68 TD shoot very well with that bullet.

Duane

[ndnchf]

I shoot a model 1868 too. 68gr of goex compressed a little and the Lee 515450 is the cat's meow!

[Old Iron Sights]

Local shop was out of goex but they had schutzen. Looking forward to this.

[13Echo]

For my 1868 I found the Lyman 515 to cast too small and could not get any accuracy. The Lee version of the bullet cast right at 0.515" and gives good accuracy. I cast from 30:1 alloy, use a single card wad and 65 hrs of Goex ffg in Starline brass compressed so I can seat the bullet deep enough to get a crimp just over the edge of the ogive. The crimp seems to help accuracy in this case. Perhaps the best recently produced mould is the NOE 515141 hollow base mould. NOE may have some left.. Check the custom mould forum.

As for using black substitutes they can and do work but all, including Blackhorn, will cause corrosion if not cleaned soon after firing. They even seem worse than real gunpowder.

Jerry Liles

[StrawHat]

Looking forward to trying my NOE mold, to cold to cast in an unheated shop!

[ndnchf]

One other comment. My model 1868 has a very long throat area to allow it to continue to load and shoot as fouling built up. I found that loading the bullet out at least one grease groove helps accuracy. It also allows you to get closer to a full load of powder.

[Old Iron Sights]

Many thanks to everyone. Have a pretty good place to start. What's the POI at 100 yds for 68 grains and the lee boolit?

[Bullshop]

I bet the POI at 100 yds is about +24" if it has original sights.

[ndnchf]

I mostly shoot mine at 50 yards because my eyes don't see the sights and target very well at 100 yards. But at 50 yards, it it almost right on. My buddy shoots the same load in his model 1866 trapdoor and it is about 6" high at 50 yards with his.

[Old Iron Sights]

Trod out onto the ice and snow today and fired 5 rounds. 68 gr ffg. Lube pill and the unsized lee boolit. What a wallop. First two rounds were really high but the next three settled in. My son shoot a couple so this isn't really a representative group. I forgot about the oil in the barrel so that would explain the first two.
96930

[ndnchf]

That certainly has potential!