Springfield 1922

[StrawHat]

Just got this one,

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Springfield%201922/004_zps206bd415.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Springfield%201922/004_zps206bd415.jpg.html)

The reason I am posting here instead of in the rimfire section is because it was returned to the Springfield Armory and reworked to handle the 22 Hornet cartridge. The serial number is low and the barrel date is 7-22. The front sight is typical to the 03 series of rifle and the rear sight was a Lyman 48 (probably 48C). The barrel carries two scope blocks and the reciever has one. A scope must have been used and the gallows arm to the Lyman sight was removed to allow clearence of the scope. When sold, the scope was removed and the gallows arm forgotten. Not untypical I am told. So, I am looking for an arm and also an appropriate scope and mounts. Got a call in to Garry Fellars looking for the Lyman piece, no idea how to find a scope.

I will clean the bore and scrub the copper out, then start looking for a good boolit and load.

[elk hunter]

This fellow has scopes, but they aren't cheap. Makes me wish I had bought more of them before they got so expensive.

http://unertl.alexweb.net/

The groove to groove of your rifle, since it started life as rim-fire, should be about .222 instead of .223 of the early Hornet.

Great guns, wish I had one.

[Scharfschuetze]

Lucky you! That should be one fun rifle to shoot at the range and to nail varmints with. Nice low SN on it too.

While I have a Springfield M2 (later version of the 1922) in .22 RF, I've only read about the the 22 Hornet conversion. I wish mine had the armory installed scope bases on the barrel as I have a couple of very nice Unertal 10X scopes. As my M2 is still in "as issued" condition, I just can't bring myself to drill and tap it to mount the Unertal.

By the way, I read in a firearms magazine a few months ago ("Rifle" Magazine as I recall) that there is now a company reproducing the old Lyman/Unetral type telescope sights. I made a quick "Bing" for replica Unetals, but I didn't find anything other than sites for used Unertals. You might look at some of those sites.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Straw Hat: Your gun at SN130 is a rare find indeed and it is a M1922 as opposed to an 1922M1 or M2. It was made in 1922. The Hornet conversions were done by more outfits than just SA, IE: R F Sedgley and Griffin & Howe, however those rifles used a regular 1903 receiver and bolt. The SA versions were mostly made from 1922M1's including Whelen's rifle. Your 1922 as a "return conversion" maybe special.

SA did the originals and they were done on 1922M1 actions. Any documentation you have that have that would confirm it was in fact a SA conversion would increase the value of the gun dramatically. In fact any documentation you have on any of these guns will increase their values dramatically.

It would be nice if you posted several more pics of the gun's whole receiver and as much of the rest of the gun as possible.

The appropriate scope for that gun would be an early Lyman 3/4" tube optic with externally adjustable mounts which attach to the scope mounts on your gun. I believe it is a Lyman 5 or 5A. I have a pic of Col Whelen's gun however it is in the book and I can't post it but it did find another pic which looks similar . Unertl didn't exist at that time. Take a look at Hi Lux Optics they are reproducing many older designs. http://hi-luxoptics.com/ The one in the pic below is similar to the one on Whelen's rifle.

As far as the sight bridge you are looking for a Lyman 48B model, (all the later guns had 48C's, and Ebay is probably going to be the place to find it. Take notice of the knobs in the pics below mine is a C model but I think the knobs were the same up til the C's. They are the ones you are looking for and they have 1/2 MOA clicks.

Good Luck on that one. Sometimes you can find a bunch of piece parts for sale on Ebay. They are a valuable find, and usually you can see one or more parts you need. A complete Lyman 48C in decent shape will set you back at least $150 and maybe more, however anything you can do to get this gun as close to original as possible will only make it worth more money. As it sits it is a very valuable piece indeed..

My Lyman 48C looked like hell and I completely disassembled it, tweaked it, buffed all the dings out of it, reblued it, and then lost a microscopic spring, and had to wait a week for Brownells to supply the replacement spring material to reassemble it.

it came out nice.

I saw two M2's at a gun show last Saturday from SOG Arms. He is a high end military rifle dealer from Northridge CA. He had $3200 and 3400 on his guns. I paid $1200 for mine an it was better than both of the ones he had.

Bargains are out there.

Scharfscheuter: Your gun is a military version. The NRA sales versions were drilled and tapped for scope mounts and probably didn't have the finger grooves on the fore end. drilling it would be a serious mistake.

A copy of Brophy's Book on Springfields has just about everything known to man as far as these guns are concerned, including serial number/year made info. I am quoting from that source in the post.

There is an extensive section on the Springfield 22's and also a separate write up on the Hornet conversions.

My gun is 4604 and was made in 1935, yours is even earlier than mine. I assume it is a 4 digit SN and if so, I would say 1934 based on numbers in Brophy's book. It also has the scalloped locking lug which indicates an earlier gun. Mine has the square lug.

Straw hat: These are some of the coolest guns ever made and the Hornet version is right at the top of that heap.

You done good!

Randy

[Scharfschuetze]

Good info W.R.

Brophy's book is a must for Springfield shooters and collectors. Wouldn't it be nice to have a few of the odds and ends in that book.

No plans to alter mine at all as it is part of my Springfield collection of issue rifles. Almost all of them get shot from time to time, but the M2 is the most used of all of 'em as it is the perfect practice rifle for a service rifle NM shooter with its Lyman aperture sight and blade front sight. I have several original magazines for it. And yes you're right, it's a four digit serial number.

I've often wondered how the barrels of the .22 RF versions held up under the 22 Hornet with jacketed bullets. I'd sure like to have one for cast bullets.

[Forrest r]

I've often wondered how the barrels of the .22 RF versions held up under the 22 Hornet with jacketed bullets. I'd sure like to have one for cast bullets.

Something to think about:
There were no set standards in the firearms industry when the 1922's were built. Hence, the m1 version of the 1922 was born in 1926. Why rebuild a rifle after only 4 years of service?

Because the gov stepped in and asked for a governing body to oversee the firearms industry. Until this point, firearms makers, ammo mfg's and secondary parts makers used their own specs/designs/charges to make the firearms & ammo. In 1926 the saami was founded & they standardized chambers, cases designs, ammo pressures, etc.

The 1922's were sent back & re-barreled to the new saami specs becoming the 1922 m1. I have no idea what pressures the original 1922 bbl's were made to withstand or if the used 1903 bbl blanks for the 1922's? I always wondered about these conversions with 22lr ammo runnig around 25,000psi & 22hornet ammo getting up to 40,000psi.

Any idea what was used to make the original 1922 bbl's?

forrest r

[StrawHat]

W.R.Buchanan, Randy, I was looking at this rifle when you posted about your 1922 in the Rimfire Section. your post helped me make my decision.

I have no documentation on who or where the conversion was done, just a SEWAG. Wish they came with paperwork but like the sight arm, that is lost to the ages. I will post additional photos, the bolt has a neat piece let into the bottom of it, and also of other parts of the conversion. I am currently just cleaning it and looking it over. The barrel band appears to be held in by a pin in front of the band. To my eye it is not a springloaded pin but merely a nail or stud that passes through the stock(?). How is it removed to allow the band to slip off? So much to learn! I want to unstock the barreled action and see how the Armory bedded the stock, I am betting it is merely well inlet. Of course, I am hoping to find tiny letters stamped into it to indicate the owners initials but that is merely a dream. I have tried to chamber a fired Hornet shell casing and it is a tight enough fit I am not willing to force it. I will resize the case or find one of my loaded casings. Also will find my 22 WCF shell and see if it fits. If not, I will make a chamber cast.

Thank you all for the suggestions on scopes, sights, etc. I have previously tried to work up a load for a 22 WCF and now will be concentrating on the Hornet. Looks like I will need to get a mold.

Pictures will go up as I get them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Straw Hat: to remove the front barrel band, you unscrew the screw on it and it will open up so that it will clear the pin. There is not a whole lot going on under the stock, however it does need to be cleaned. I removed grease from mine that had been put there in 1935. I highly recommend you take the gun completely apart and remove all the old grease and re lube it with Frog Lube. The Frog Lube actually penetrates the metal and once it is on there and cooked in with a heat gun or hair drier, the metal will never rust. ever. Best stuff I've ever used. bar none. Also my gun runs really slick due to the Frog Lube.

Always remember that Parkerizing is nothing more than a sponge to absorb lubricant which in turn prevents rust. Parkerizing on it's own will rust in a matter of days if any moisture is present in the air.

I highly recommend that you get Brophy's book on the Springfield rifles off Amazon. I got a brand new one for $35 and it is a wealth of information on the guns including yours. I would also recommend US ARMY "TM9-280," Which is the technical manual for all .22 caliber rifles. It focuses mainly on the Springfield and has complete disassembly instructions, and well as specifications. If you go to Amazon and type in "TM9-280" it will come up from a variety of sources. These are the two reference books I got to supplement my knowledge of these guns. Very valuable indeed. Highly recommend multiple read thrus so that all the information is absorbed.

The reason for the 1922M1 and M2 versions of the guns were simply improvements made to the gun. The 1922 was not the first 22LR caliber bolt action rifle the ARMY tried. There were a variety of 03 modifications prior to that series of guns, and all were abysmal failures. The bolt area of the guns and the magazines were the area of the majority of changes and virtually all of it had to do with increasing the reliability of the feeding. The 1922 was the first to have a purpose built receiver and bolt. 1922M1 and M2 were the evolutions.

My gun has a very tight chamber that must be cleaned after every 100 or so rounds or the rounds will not go in. I have never experienced this in my life on any other gun. My Mauser ES340 B chambers anything anytime without any hesitation, as does every other 22 I've ever owned. I found this problem when I was trying to figure out why the thing was shaving lead off the bullets as they were chambered. I could not push a round all the way into the chamber with just my thumb! I simply couldn't do it, it was too tight. After running a brush on a drill motor into the chamber it came clean and I could push the round in all the way, however it was obviously a tight fit. I guess you would expect this from Target Rifle?

My best guess on the source of the barrel material was that they were purported to me made from 03 and 03A3 blanks. just drilled and reamed smaller obviously. I also read that some of the Hornet barrels were sourced from Winchester.

These guns were responsible for the development of the .22WCF later named the Hornet, and the guys at SA did it as a hobby type project, with Col Whelan pushing the development of the cartridge to Winchester since he had more clout with them. This all came out of Brophy's book.

After talking to the previous owner yesterday he told me that he had bought the gun from a man in the mid 90's. That man had purchased the gun from the Benecia? Armory in northern CA where it had been refurbished with a new barrel different bolt and new stock. This occurred in 1956.

I have read that all of the earlier guns not in civilian hands had been up dated to M2 status and all of the M2's were called back and refurbished between 1956 and 57, and then sold to the civilian market thru the DCM.

The stock on my gun appears to be nearly new, and the barrel is a SA barrel made 6-42, and this would be expected in a refurbished gun. I also think my gun did a lot of time in a closet or gun rack since the stock still looks new.

I am shooting my gun monthly at my clubs Rimfire silhouette matches this year. Last year I won the open sight division with the Mauser. This year it will be the Springfield that brings home the gold. (very little competition) still I did have high score for the year at 32/40.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Just got some stuff together to clean and decopper the bore. I will start on that next week.

I am looking at the NOE 226-45 RF mold. I will probably go with the plain based boolit. Any thoughts? I know Bullshop likes the 22 Ranch Dog design but I can not get a mold so... Are there other molds you guys would recommend? The 1922 has a 1/16 twist. Also looking for recipes, if anyone wants to share.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would highly recommend a gas check boolit design. the plain based versions of .22 cal. boolits aren't going to be accurate any faster than about 1600 fps and you can do that with 22LR's

At least with GC's you'd be able to run the boolits a little faster which is kind of the point of the 22 Hornet in the first place.

Pics please?

Randy

[garandsrus]

Strawhat,

That's the gun that turned up at a Gander Mountain, right? I recently saw it mentioned on the CMP forum.

[StrawHat]

garandsrus, yes, that is the one. I was looking at it and my brother sent me a link to CMP. Then W.R.Buchanan posted his 1922 in the rimfire section. It was all a big conspiracy to part me from my money and it worked!

Randy, pics will be coming soon, I am in the process of dissembling a cleaning. Probably the last part of February or the first part of March. Sorry for the delay.

[garandsrus]

Very cool...

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm shooting mine at Rimfire Silhouette tomorrow (Saturday 2/15) I will post my results on my thread in the Rimfire section.

Randy

[StrawHat]

I would highly recommend a gas check boolit design. the plain based versions of .22 cal. boolits aren't going to be accurate any faster than about 1600 fps and you can do that with 22LR's

At least with GC's you'd be able to run the boolits a little faster which is kind of the point of the 22 Hornet in the first place.

Pics please?

Randy

Randy, not trying to be argumentive but I am testing uncharted waters here. I have shot a lot of BPCR, the first thing I do with a used rifle is scrub the copper out. Then I shoot lead boolits. Is not using a gas check going to coat the bore with copper and cause the bore to grab lead? And if I do go with gas checks, do I need to de-copper the bore first? Maybe I am overthinking this.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, StrawHat. No need to fear of g.c. coppering bore. I have a Shillen barreled panneled action Sharps Borchardt in .22 Hornet. Have both plain-base & g.c. moulds for it. When I first got it, tried every jacketed bullet including some expensive custom match stuff..this was to establish an accuracy benchmark..then I went to cast. 5 years of constant experimentation, custom nose-pour moulds, sizers, etc. I finally equalled match grade jacket accuracy at 100yds. 3/8" to 1/2" groups. Biggest improvement came when I made a tapered sizer die that fits Lyman 45..sizes first band to match chamber leade angle & dia. its adjustable via Lyman adjustment screw.

[StrawHat]

.22-10-45, From your screen name you may inderstand my dilemna with the 22 WCF, trying to find a black powder load.

However, I am now searching for recipes with smokeless. Care to share? I have heard Lil Gun is a good powder. I still havesome 2400 and maybe 4227. Any others I should consider.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, StrawHat..When my Hornet was being built, I had only been married a few years so money was very tight..I didn't dare spend any on firearms as I was socking everything I could away for anticipated cost. As time went on though..I did manage to start collecting old Ideal and Lyman bullet moulds..so when I was ready for cast..I had quite a collection to experiment with. The 26" Shillen barrel has a 1-14" twist. I tried every .22 mould I had..including a custom Eagan nose-pour. Some were accurate..but no consistancy. Finally I obtained an old Ideal 60gr. 22636..this one was for the old .22-15-60 Stevens. I cast some using Lyman #2 alloy, chucked them up in bench-lathe collet & faced off base to 52grs. On some, I turned a gas-check shank. Sized to .226, these produced some of the smallest groups I had gotten so far at 100yds.
I sent samples off to Fred Leeth at Pioneer Products..for nose-pour cpoies in both plain-base & g.c. The new bullets shot very well..and their bases were glass smooth due to nose-pour design..however consistancy still wasn't there. Finally I turned up a tool steel tapered sizer die to fit the Lyman 45..the taper matches the chamber leade angle of my rifle..it's adjustable via adjusting screw on the 45..so dia. can be varied as well. This more than anything finally allowed me to equal best match jacket bullet accuracy using cast. Rifle will ocassionally group into 3/8"..more common is 1/2" to 3/4" at 100yds.
Later, I had Fred make up 45gr. nose-pour copies of Ideal 22636..the same bullet Ideal designed for the 1885 W.C.F. He should still have drawings I sent him for this bullet.
I had always gotten best accuracy using H4227. Last summer I tried Vihtavuori N110 using the Leeth 52gr. g.c. this gave even better accuracy than the Hodgdon powder...but the plain-base didn't like it..more pressure? My best loads for accuracy have been around 7.0grs. H4227. As far as loading..I use Redding bushing type neck sizer die, Lyman M die with tapered expander plug, & for seating, a Wilson straight-line chamber seater with Sinclair micrometer top. I can seat bullets by palm pressure. Bullets seated so tapered first band is fully engraved by rifling as action closes. Best of luck!

[StrawHat]

I got the bore scrubbed and it looks nice. Scrubbed the chamber and Hornet cartridges are still a very tight fit. I am going to need to pour a chamber cast to see what's going on in there.

Here is a shot of the bolt face. Not sure if you can see but there is a piece fitted to the bottom of the bolt. Maybe Randy can add a photo of the rimfire bolt for comparison.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Springfield%201922/007_zps0b2e15c2.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Springfield%201922/007_zps0b2e15c2.jpg.html)

A better view.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Springfield%201922/Springfield1922009_zpsdff48e28.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Springfield%201922/Springfield1922009_zpsdff48e28.jpg.html)

The new firing pin

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Springfield%201922/Springfield1922011_zpsde57d3f3.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Springfield%201922/Springfield1922011_zpsde57d3f3.jpg.html)

The number on the bolt is not original nor even the way later versions were marked. I tore the rifle down and found the stock was numbered, in pencil, to the barreled action. The LOP has been cut and the funky recoil pad added. I intend to remove that pad and replace it with something more asthetically pleasing.

Tracking down the sight arm and scope are still on the back burner.

Next up is the chamber cast, well, after I buy some cerrosafe (?) for it.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

You guys make me jealous with these rifles. I just can't get over my Dad having used them in Boot Camp in the Marine Corps just prior to WWII. I think he said 1939. He said they fired the .22 rimfires that "looked like converted 1903's" until their marksmanship skills were worthy of spending the money to shoot .30 caliber cartridges out of their individually issued 1903's.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Straw Hat: the bottom of the bolt on the M2 has two relief cuts made on either side of the centerline. The remaining section picks the new round off the magazine and shoves it forward while running between the feed lips of the mag. As it is doing this the cartridge rim is moving up the bolt face until it is under the extractor.

Yours works the same way except it doesn't need the relief cuts, it just has had the underside of the bolt filled with weld and made round.

Still like to see some good pics of the whole gun. Take it outside and shoot it in the sunlight if you have any presently.

It just stopped raining here a few minutes ago and we got about 8-10" in the last 3 days. We are still in Drought conditions since most of the rain simply ran off into the Ventura River and is now in the ocean. Great planning we have out here.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Straw Hat: the bottom of the bolt on the M2 has two relief cuts made on either side of the centerline. The remaining section picks the new round off the magazine and shoves it forward while running between the feed lips of the mag. As it is doing this the cartridge rim is moving up the bolt face until it is under the extractor.

Yours works the same way except it doesn't need the relief cuts, it just has had the underside of the bolt filled with weld and made round.

Still like to see some good pics of the whole gun. Take it outside and shoot it in the sunlight if you have any presently.

It just stopped raining here a few minutes ago and we got about 8-10" in the last 3 days. We are still in Drought conditions since most of the rain simply ran off into the Ventura River and is now in the ocean. Great planning we have out here.

Randy

Randy, thanks for the info on the bolt and how the RF version is made.

I will get some full length shots, hopefully this week.

[StrawHat]

Still getting things together for this rifle. Found a Lyman 48C, man, are those things pricy! Oh well.

The filler on the bottom of the bolt does not appear to be a welded filler. It appears to be more of a block specifcally cut to fit the recess and, perhaps, soldered in place. Based on sharp raised edges from the face of the bolt back about 1/3 the length of the bolt.

Randy, Here is a full length shot of the rifle.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Springfield%201922/SpringfieldM1922002_zps957783bb.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Springfield%201922/SpringfieldM1922002_zps957783bb.jpg.html)

Barrel and sight are original, stock is original but cut at the pad, LOP 12 1/2", and the butt pad is a hardened ventilated rib affair. Thinking about a Pachmyer, Olde English pad to replace it. For looks, not for any recoil absorbing properties.

Scrubbed the chamber some more and resized empties still do not want to fit easily. I will be getting sulfur to make a chamber cast. Wonder what else it could be. I know when they were experimenting with the 22 Hornet, they tried different dimensions before settling on the 22 WCF dimensions but I am trying not to think of this rifle as one of the experimental ones. I bought the rifle, not the story.

[StrawHat]

Update, still haven't made the cast but it turns out I do not need to. I scrubbed the chamber, again and still the Hornet round would not fit. At least not without a lot of force on the bolt to close it. And I needed a rod down the barrel to pop the cartridge out of the chamber. Eventually, a light went on in the recesses of my skull. I removed the bolt and slid the case under the extractor. I then slid the whole unit home with only mild pressure needed to close the bolt. And when I retracted the bolt, the casing came with it! All along, I was trying to get the extractor to jump over the rim and it would not. This is a controlled round feed bolt. Unfortunately, with no magazine, it is a bit difficult to chamber a cartridge. Next project will be figuring a cure for feeding single rounds.

[W.R.Buchanan]

straw hat: you didn't get a magazine with it? That will be an expensive problem to fix. I got an extra one for my .22lr M2 and it cost me $110 and I was happy to get it.

Call the CMP and they will refer you to a guy named Lynn who is very knowledgeable about these guns. He will either have one or know where to get one.

It will not be cheap and be prepared to spend probably $200+. but it will make your gun complete, and that is a good thing. Once your gun is complete and cleaned up it will be worth a bunch,,, to guys, like the one you'll get referred to by the CMP.

To make a single shot plug you'll need to be able to make a tapered trough in a piece of aluminum. The outside of the plug will duplicate the magazines shape and dimensions.

Take some close up pics of that gun and post them so we can see what the condition is.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Randy, No magazine as this was converted to 22 Hornet. After scrubbing the chamber, I am happy the Hornet fit! Otherwise, I might have had some obscure chambering used by the Whelen, Wotkyns etal, to develop what became the Hornet. Now I have a rifle I can shoot. I will fit a wooden plug, probably mahogany, into the mag well to assist in feeding the CF cartridge. I can live with a single shot. I don't think they made magazines for the conversions. Even if they did, this rifle is still set up for the magazine for the unaltered 1922.

I will get some better photos if it ever stops raining.

[goofyoldfart]

Oh boy, I just about wet my Britches when I saw the full length picture.:shock:. Beautiful!!!!! God Bless to you and yours.

Goofy

[StrawHat]

Oh boy, I just about wet my Britches when I saw the full length picture.:shock:. Beautiful!!!!! God Bless to you and yours.

Goofy

Thank you, The only "flaw" is the non original butt pad and the shortened stock. I will probably put a Pachmyer "leather" pad on it to make it a bit better looking.

I am considering an MVA scope, one of the Winchester copies, as from what I understand, that would be appropriate to the era. Or maybe a Litschert. From what I hear, the optics of the MVA are much better and clearer. I am getting the rear sight arm but not sure if it will be used a lot. I will figure a way to store it in the buttstock so it will NOT get lost again.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Straw Hat: I found out some tidbits at the gun show this last weekend from a guy who has several of these rifles.

First: The Hornet conversions are all Single Shots. There was no magazine ever made for the Hornet conversions since it would have required altering the bottom of the receiver and all of the stuff below.

We will find out more as we go, but there's no need to worry about finding a magazine now,,, cuz there ain't none.

He also had a Korean War Marine Sniper Rifle which was essentially an NRA Sporter with a Winchester 3/4" tube scope mounted exactly like yours will be. This gun also had a Lyman 48 mounted on it and where as he kept telling me how correct it was, the knobs on the sight were definitely 70's or later mfg. I have one just like the one on his gun mounted to my 03A3 and I bought it new in 1978.

One other thing you can look for is the plug for the Lyman sight for when a scope is installed. I have seen several over the years but never bothered getting one simply because all my Rifles with Lyman Sights use them as the primary sight. I don't have scopes on any of them.

However if you decide to mount a Winchester or Lyman 5 or 5A then the top slide should be removed from the Lyman 48 and to be completely cool you need the plug that goes in in its place to keep the interior of the sight base clean. That way if your peep sight is correctly zeroed you should be able to remove the scope, remove the plug in the sight base and then simply insert the top slide of the peep sight back into its place and if you set the stop screw after you sighted the gun in, then the sight will return to your "Mechanical Zero."

Everything as far as distance or elevation changes will work off that zero and you will record those offsets for future use as you shoot at different ranges. DOPE,,, Data Obtained from Previous Experience.

This is why you take extra time to setup up your peep sight dead on at like 100 or 200 yards on a dead calm day so you can set the windage zero as well.

I set up my high power rifles with a 200 yard zero, which is dead on at 50 yards 1" high at 100 dead on at 200 and 12" low at 300. on my scopes with MOA adjustments zero is at 200 yards, 4.0 MOA at 300 yds, 7.5 MOA at 400 and 12.5 MOA at 500 yds. These offsets translate directly to the Lyman Receiver sight as well.

On my M2 .22LR I can either sight dead on at 50 or 75 yds, 75 being preferred. With a .75 yard zero the bullet is 1" high at 50 yds, dead on at 75 yds and 3" low at 100. For Rimfire Silhouette I am good with the 75 yd zero for the 40, 50, 75 yard targets and then I dial in 3 MOA on the sight for the Rams at 100 yds. Then I simply release the slide lock and return the sight to the mechanical zero when done and we're ready to go next time.

Simple huh? these sights are very accurate, and repeat very well.

On your Hornet once you have established a standard load, I believe I would look at a 100 yard mechanical zero and then work out to about 250 yards from there. Obviously you need to record the elevation offsets for every 25 to 50 yards so that you can make accurate adjustments to your sights based on known ranges.

This way you always have a reliable backup sight ready incase you scope cacks,or gets bumped off zero, and also will increase your enjoyment of the gun immensely since you will be able to go directly to a range and actually hit the target.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Randy,

Thank you for the information. I was aware the conversions were single shot, the cartridge was new enough that magazines were not around.

Also, I am getting an arm for the Lyman 48 (Garry Fellars) and plan on sighting in with that, at least until I can afford a scope.


I found out some tidbits at the gun show this last weekend from a guy who has several of these rifles.

He has several 1922s or several converted ones? Either way, if you have his contact info, could you PM me so I can see what all he has? Every time I handle this rifle, I am intrigued and impressed by the work on it, both the original rifle and the conversion. I would like to see what an M2 could do on the range.

[Janoosh]

Nice gun...color me envious..
as to a scope..have you looked at the older mossberg scopes with outside adjustments?
If the front sight is a Springfield, a Lyman 17a xnb ( hope I got that right) is
a good replacement. Unless you're keeping it stock original. .
once again...nice gun..

[W.R.Buchanan]

Straw Hat: He says he has 18 M2's and says he won't sell any of them? I guess they are his retirement nestegg, but I'm pretty sure he's older than I am (64) so go figure.

This guy usually has a table with 50+ Military guns on it and none of them are cheap. He doesn't sell that many that I have seen, but everything on his tables are first rate.

PM me your email address and I'll send you his info. If you call the CMP directly and talk to the gunsmith he will direct you to Lynn Thompson and Lynn will direct you to Herschel S Garner. Lynn is regarded as one of the most knowledgeable Springfield people out there, and Herschel is the 1922, 1922M1 and M2 Guru. both of these guys will tell you everything they know and it will only cost you an hour or so on the phone.

Randy

Also there is a great article in the new (just came today) Handloader mag on loading the 22 Hornet to .22 lr velocities with cast boolits. The idea being to circumvent the *****s who are buying all the .22 ammo from Walmart and reselling it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kevin: Your mailbox is full but here is the answer to your question.

Yes it is CR feed. The cartridge rim must slide under the extractor as it strips from the magazine. Mine was pretty sticky at first and I had to clean the **** out of it and do some light polishing to get it to feed right. Now it runs fast and smooth. I might add that it runs better if operated smartly. The bolt face and the chamber must be kept super clean for the gun to operate smoothly.

I wonder if anyone ever made a loading tray for your gun. I have seen them for Rem 700's and they sit atop or replace the mag follower.

My Mauser .22 is a single shot but it has a divot in the bottom of the receiver that directs the cartridge into the bolt face and it works perfectly everytime and also works when the bolt is operated smartly. You simply drop a cartridge into the receiver and close the bolt. It is CR feed as well. Pic #1 shows the scallop in the receiver and Pic#2 shows the bolt face. You can see how the cartridge would be pushed forward under the extractor and then as the bolt rotates that rim stays under the extractor until the firing pin comes into alignment with the rim. Kimbers have the same bolt face but my Mauser was made in 1929 so I think the idea came from Germany.

Also the Springfield bolt face doesn't rotate, the Mauser does.

I would think there is something like that for the Hornet conversions as well since I doubt that they made the rifles and left them at being a PITA to load. These guys weren't fools. They were serious riflemen and gunsmiths too boot, and they also work for the Govt. so they had the time!

Randy

[StrawHat]

The thought of this rifle being a controlled fedd single shot, while doable, was a bit vexing. If I laid the shell in the breech and had too much or not enough of the case exposed it would jam. I did not think it was built this way so I started to really examine the bolt. The extractor seemed the first likely place so I eventually decided it was glued solid with years of oil hardened to varnish. I soaked it for a day in alcohol and gave it a good scrubbing. It now moves freely and as long as the cartridge does not fall into the magazine void, it feeds right into the chamber and the extractor snaps over the rim just like it is supposed to do!

I also scrubbed the bore a removed all the copper. It is now ready for a diet of boolits!

I still need to build a loading trough to fit in the magazine well and start working up some loads. I see Lil Gun is the current powder of popularity for the Hornet. I may try some of that but will also go with 2400 as that is the classic powder for the cartridge nad this is one of the classic rifles for the cartridge. If anyone has other suggestions, let me know.

[gnoahhh]

Try 6gr. 2400 and Lee Bator bullet. .22RFM performance and very accurate in in several Hornets owned by me and friends.

I had a M1922M2 converted to .22K-Hornet a while back. The thing shot very accurately but for some reason kept breaking firing pins. Never did figure out why, but when I switched to cast bullet low velocity loads it stopped. Full stroke jacketed loads would break firing pins at a rate of about once per 20 shots- a real PIA.

[StrawHat]

Try 6gr. 2400 and Lee Bator bullet. .22RFM performance and very accurate in in several Hornets owned by me and friends.

I had a M1922M2 converted to .22K-Hornet a while back. The thing shot very accurately but for some reason kept breaking firing pins. Never did figure out why, but when I switched to cast bullet low velocity loads it stopped. Full stroke jacketed loads would break firing pins at a rate of about once per 20 shots- a real PIA.

Perhaps, I should lay in a supply of firing pins! Did stock 03 pins work or was it a custom deal for you?

[gnoahhh]

Custom deal.

[StrawHat]

This just in!

A Lyman 48C arrived in the mail yesterday. It will replace the 48C base that is currently on the rifle so I will have a working rear sight. Pictures by the end of the week.

[W.R.Buchanan]

StrawHat - Sat, 31 May 2014 10:23:59 +0000]Good Morning Randy,

Any tips for "tuning" a Springfield M1922?

Kevin[/QUOTE]

Kevin: "Tuning ?" I recommend the Key of "C"

Here's what I did to mine.

I completely disassembled the gun. I cleaned everything and got all of the 50 year old grease off the gun and out of the nooks and cranny's. Disassembled the bolt and did the same thing.

I then treated everything with Frog Lube, which as far as I'm concerned is the best lubricant out there. The Parkerizing on the gun absorbs the Frog Lube very well and you can rest assured that whatever is treated and cooked in will never rust, and will operate slick as snot.

As I recall you had some problems getting Hornets to chamber in your gun due to a fouled chamber. The barrel needs the FL treatment inside and out as well.

My bolt operates really nice after all is said and done. My gun also appeared to have a very tight chamber and would hardly chamber a round. A vigorous cleaning and FL treatment solved that problem for good. I would recommend the same for your gun.

You need to disassemble the Lyman sight as well and this is not hard to do but after it is cleaned and re-lubed (With Frog Lube ) it will be much easier to adjust. Wouldn't be wrong to put a drop of Blue Loctite on the screws holding the Sight to the Receiver.

Now after you've got the thing back together you have to sight it in. With your .22 Hornet version I'm thinking Dead on at 100 is going to be the hot ticket. You set your elevation stop (set screw on slide) to that position after you are sighted in and then you reset both knobs to the zero point. I don't know if you are using Boolits or Bullets but whatever you do, zero the gun for that load first. Doing this allows you to always have a basic zero you can return to after you have made adjustments for whatever shot you are taking.

There will only minor adjustments necessary after you finalize your load.

Do yourself a favor and settle into a load you are comfortable with quickly. Chasing variables around is stupid and a complete waste of time, as there is little to be gained by eeking out that last little bit of accuracy. The idea is to hit targets not shoot groups for the rest of your life. If you are under 2" at 100 yards with boolits you are good to go. I'd like to see under 1" with J Words, and would be very happy indeed. You may have to live with worse, but like I said the idea is to hit targets not to shoot groups. I would be amazed if you could shoot any better with iron sights at those distances. With optics a different story.

Do some research in as many Reloading Manuals as you can find with Cast Boolit loads. I know you wanted to shoot cast in this gun, and I would recommend finding the largest .22 cal. boolit mould you can get,,, 60-70 gr maybe, and get that to shoot. It would be good for anything you would do with a Hornet, and big enough that you could find it after you drop it out of the mould. Casting .22 cal. boolits is not the easiest thing to pull off, but it can be done and there are people here that can tell you how to do it. Also in the current Handloader Magazine there is a good article by John Barsness on loading the .22 Hornet with cast which maybe a good idea to check out. With your 1:16" twist barrel you are looking at about 1600 to 1800 fps as being your high end with cast, and you will definitely need Gas Checks, as I doubt you will get a plain based .22 cal. boolit to shoot well at those velocities. With Jacketed Hornet 40-45 gr bullets probably 2200-2800 fps. Worth looking at for sure, for when you get your scope mounted. your gun will need .223 dia. Jacketed Bullets

You then need to shoot the gun with your new "Standard Load." Tweak the Windage and then shoot the gun at 50, 100, and then 150, 200 and maybe 250 yards with elevation offsets cranked in just for giggles, while noting those elevation offsets on the Lyman Receiver Sight.(Write them down for future use) All of these offsets would be added to the "Mechanical 100 yard zero" you started with.

For example My M2 is sighted in dead on at 75 yards with .22LR ammo at 1100 fps. It is 1" high at 50 yards and 3" low at 100. This is all the further I have shot the gun, since that's all the distances that Rimfire Silhouettes are placed. I shoot Chickens and Pigs at 40 and 50 yards and then Turkeys at 75 with the same "Mechanical Zero," since there is only 1" difference in the elevation over those distances. I then bump the elevation 3 MOA or 3" at 100 yards for the Ram's zero. This is one full revolution of the elevation knob. After I'm done I hit the quick release button on the side and lower the slide back down to the set screw that sets the Mechanical Zero, and we start all over.

You will have more elevation offsets because of your ability to shoot at longer distances, but the entire concept is the same. You just have to shoot at the various distances and adjust your elevation to those distances, and note the offsets for future use. This is called DOPE for your rifle. (Data Obtained from Previous Experience) and recording it for future use is an ongoing project. Windage is also part of the equation and as you shoot under varying conditions you will gain experience with that variable as well.

What you are going to experience is known as "Classic Marksmanship." And it is a pretty neat thing to learn and you've got a great gun to learn it with. Everything you learn is directly applicable to High Power Rifle Shooting with either Iron Sights or Optics, and all of it will make you a better shooter. Lots of information out there on this subject and I would suggest a Google search for more info, it has been the standard of Military Shooting for well over 100 years..

Hope this helps you on your quest for Ballistic Nirvana! :redneck:

Randy

[StrawHat]

I no longer get the Handloader magazine but would be interested in reading the article. I will have to look for it. My local book/magazine shop closed it's doors and the big ones don't carry Handloader.

So, a 60+ grain boolit for the Hornet? Wow, I thought that to be too long but in the interest of fun, I may look into that.

I am pretty sure this rifle will be used for small game and varmints. Bigger things will get the attention of my 405 or 50-70. But casting the little 22s will be a new thing.

Time to get ready for work.

[JHeath]

This is the highest-quality thread I have seen, on any topic shooting or otherwise. You guys know the subject matter, present it well, and show enthusiasm and intellect.

You are preserving and sharing information from the golden age of riflery. Everything we inherited was funneled through the generation who transitioned shooting from falling blocks and lever rifles to Mauser-derived bolt guns. When I grew up you could still meet them socializing in gun shops. Now they are gone, and it is heartening to see that scattered across North America are people who valued that generation and took the time to listen.

Thanks!
JNH

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kevin: the article is in the current issue of Handloader June 2014. and it is by John Barsness. This mag should be available at Barnes and Noble or most other large book stores or grocery stores that have decent mag racks. Our local "Winco" has it!

He used a Lyman 225438 which was 43.5 gr but he was only pushing them to 1100 fps trying to duplicate Standard Velocity .22 LR's and if that is what you are trying to accomplish this would be fine. The gun should handle these perfectly since the barrel is a .22 LR barrel re-chambered for the Hornet cartridge. But effectively you've got a center fire .22 LR with those loads.

The Boolits that Lyman 49 lists for .22 Hornet vary from the above mentioned boolit to Lyman 225415 which is 55 gr. The loads for the bigger boolit range from 1600 to just above 1800 fps, and the extra power would get you near the .22 RF Magnum in performance, except for the style of bullet.

With Jacketed bullets from 40 to 55 gr you are now well above .22 RF Mag and into having a serious varmint gun. I shoot a lot of 55gr recycled bullets in my .223's and they are available from several sources for about .10 ea. 8.5 gr of H110 powder should get about 2200 fps.(per Lyman 49) 40 gr bullets designed for the Hornet can been easily pushed to 2800 fps.

The reason why I mentioned 60 gr is because I tend to like heavier Cast Boolits for a given caliber, however with a 1:16 twist the gun may not stabilize a 60gr boolit so it might be a good idea to try some to see if you can get them to work before springing for a custom mould.

I really like 200 ish grain Boolits for 30 caliber as opposed to 150 gr jacketed bullets for those loads. A 200 gr Jacketed.30-06 load would be a serious **** Kicker load suitable for anything in N/A, but would be pretty serious over kill for smaller Deer sized game. Whereas the 200 gr Boolit would be right at home for that use as would the 150 gr J word.

This is my logic.

Remember that your barrels groove dia. is .223, not .224. This is what virtually all .22 LR's have been since the beginning of time. Point being a Boolit sized to .224 will probably be the hot ticket.

Lots to know here and I hope you dig deep and become an expert on this subject, because I certainly am not. Talented Amateur,,, maybe?

I have found that claiming expertise on a subject raises expectations above what can usually be delivered.

Hope some of this helps.

Randy

[StrawHat]

I have a couple of 22 molds already, 37 and 45 grain. My brother knows a fellow caster in the area who is a Hornet fan, so I will be contacting him to pick his brain and perhaps glean some boolits from him.

I had a good laugh reading your post. I tend to skim an article first and go back to pick the details. Here I am blasting through mention of 60 grain boolets and then I see something about a 200 grain boolit! In my mind I see a boolit seated in the Hornet and sticking out the end of the 24 inch barrel!

This is my first excursion into Hornet territory. I have a Ballard chambered for the 22 WCF (.223 bore) but have never been able to get a blackpowder load to work. This summer, I may revive that project also but first, I want to tackle the Hornet and smokeless powder. I think I will start with the classic 2400 powder and then try others. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, nor do I want a lot of powders so I will find a "good" load and be happy. This is not a bench rifle so I will look for hunting accuracy from field positions.

[StrawHat]

What sling would be period appropriate for the Springfield Model 1922 rifle?

Kevin

[W.R.Buchanan]

M1907. I just bought a Competition Sling from Brownells. ($40ish) I got a black one for this gun. but a natural colored one would be appropriate as well.

I also dyed one a darker color for my Enfield.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Thank you Randy,

I will start looking for a gently used one.

Kevin

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kevin: you will find that Gently Used ones are generally dried up and when leather gets old it cracks. I highly recommend that you just spring for a new one and be done with it. If you have the gun for 20 years it will actually be gently used by then. There are other makers of the M1907 sling as well. Triple K sells one that is about $15 and I have had one for many years and it still looks good.

The cost is more about the leather quality than anything else. That sling you see above is soft and supple, the less expensive ones tend to be a little stiffer.

Randy

[StrawHat]

Thank you Randy,

This summer, I intend to do a bit more work on this M1922. The sling will be used for sighting in work and then for field work. Since this is a 22 Hornet, I will be removing the floorplate and the internal parts for the magazine, and replacing them with a 1903 floorplate, spring and follower. The follower will push up against a "trough" I will fashion to allow easier loading of the Hornet cartridge into the chamber. I will in essence, be completing the conversion.

As always, any thoughts or advice are genuinely appreciated. I may not follow it but I will certainly consider it.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

My brother gave me a sling for this rifle. I am not savvy with nomenclature but he said it was the same sling used for the 1903 so it should be a suitable sling for the 1922. It has been many years since I used a sling and it took two tries to get it on the rifle. Hooks away from the wood, that much I remembered but forgot the keepers the first time. Now, to get it adjusted for my style of shooting.

Slowly, things are coming together.

Kevin