Need advice on .223 swage dies

[Chuck Walla]

Hey all. I'd like to get opinions on the best buy for .223 swage dies. I've been lurking for awhile and read a lot of the threads on the issue, but it's been pretty confusing to say the least. I've checked on the ones I could find searching around the internet. It looks to me like Larry Blackmon is the best for the money, and I didn't see anything negative about him anywhere. It looks like the local guy here is a bit pricey at almost $1500 for the package, wow! H-G looks like a bad idea with all the complaints. Blackmon lists a press on his site for $180, but I have no idea how good it would be. Also, are his dies compatible with a reloading press? I have fairly good reloading press that I'm sure could handle the small .223 bullets. I've even thought about buying one of those big presses that load .50 BMG like the one that RCBS sells. I think it was about $270 on Midway. I'm sure Blackmon can answer whether his dies can fit a reloading press if I call him, but he's probably the wrong guy to ask about how good his press is. It's too bad there isn't a sticky thread devoted to this so that I wouldn't have to ask people to tell me what they think. Don't waste a lot of time, but any quick info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[R.Ph. 380]

You know, you generally get what you invest in. Blackmon dies are generally acknowledged to be top shelf and I wouldn't hesitate to own them. RCE and Dave Corbin also. They were just too involved for my feeble brain to get around and were still a sizeable investment. The best of the middle level I looked at was Brian's(btsniper) set and since I could afford to wait for a while, I ordered his. I love my set of dies and think they are the best I could have gotten.

Brian has said often that the Lee die is fully capable of swaging with his 22lr to .224. I think my RCBS supreme is also as good. Check with any of the die builders, they will honestly answer your questions, and at the same time reinforce your ideas on swaging. All of them are pretty good guys.

Bill

[newcastter]

I purchased the derim die and 3 die set (includes punches) and press from Larry Blackmon for $635 and waited about 8-9 months for it. I absolutely love it they produce the best bullet I have seen this far, Larry makes a conversion to use on a RCBS press but otherwise they are dedicated for his press, the discount you get for purchasing the whole kit brings the press to around $100 so to me it was worth it to have a dedicated press just for his dies, I like the idea of having multiple presses. Hope this helps.

[Utah Shooter]

http://bulletswagingsupply.com/index.html

Looks like his site has been updated. :drinks:

[Chuck Walla]

Thanks guys, just the type of info I'm looking for. That is what I was hoping to hear about Blackmon, Newcastter--thanks. I don't know RPh 380, this Bt sniper guy is sure on the high end of the price from what I saw on his price list. I'll keep researching and reading up on everything I can find in the meantime.

[Bored1]

http://bulletswagingsupply.com/index.html

Looks like his site has been updated. :drinks:


Thanks for posting that. Looks like I will be calling them again tomorrow see how far they are backlogged.

[Scootshop]

Long time reloader new to swaging. I got a Corbin press and three diff die sets all Corbin in a deal I made. So far just made 22rf bullets. Still struggling and learning more every day. I bought a de-rim die from BT Sniper and got to say its a bonus to me to be able to talk to a real person on the phone. To me that's worth the price of admission. One thing I would think about is how strong are you, for me the larger ded swage press takes the work out of the de rim part. My Son could not pull the handle on my RCBS rockchucker to Derim a case. He is 19. My only regret is that I didn't start ten years ago.

[Utah Shooter]

Thanks for posting that. Looks like I will be calling them again tomorrow see how far they are backlogged.

You got it. It is nice to see he has something setup.


Long time reloader new to swaging. I got a Corbin press and three diff die sets all Corbin in a deal I made. So far just made 22rf bullets. Still struggling and learning more every day. I bought a de-rim die from BT Sniper and got to say its a bonus to me to be able to talk to a real person on the phone. To me that's worth the price of admission. One thing I would think about is how strong are you, for me the larger ded swage press takes the work out of the de rim part. My Son could not pull the handle on my RCBS rockchucker to Derim a case. He is 19. My only regret is that I didn't start ten years ago.
Well I must say if you have someone you want to buy something from and they do not pick up the phone you should go elsewhere.

As far as your son not being able to use the de rim die I think you have it set up wrong. Strength should have nothing to do with it.

[Scootshop]

You could be right about the set up, seems pretty straight forward. When I switched to Corbin from rcbs was no worries. I would yield to your ex and maybe go back and try again with the die set higher or lower and see if it makes a diff. Was a little upset that my kid wouldn't be out in the garage cranking out jackets for me. Maybe he is smarter than I think and knew that's what I had in mind.

[Utah Shooter]

You could be right about the set up, seems pretty straight forward. When I switched to Corbin from rcbs was no worries. I would yield to your ex and maybe go back and try again with the die set higher or lower and see if it makes a diff. Was a little upset that my kid wouldn't be out in the garage cranking out jackets for me. Maybe he is smarter than I think and knew that's what I had in mind.Ha. He says I am not doing your work. :grin:

Yeah just play around with the leverage.

[Zymurgy50]

You need to set the de-rim die higher in the press so that the increased leverage near the end of the stroke does the work. You may need to just remove the rim in the first step and then run the case all the way through on the second step.
I have the Corbin Mega mite press, it uses the type H dies that can also be used on the Hydro press. The handle on the mega mite press is long enough that an average 12 year old can derim 22's. The de-rim die is actually the same one they sell for reloading presses, I just have an adapter from 7/8" to 1 1/2"

[MUSTANG]

You need to set the de-rim die higher in the press so that the increased leverage near the end of the stroke does the work. You may need to just remove the rim in the first step and then run the case all the way through on the second step.
I have the Corbin Mega mite press, it uses the type H dies that can also be used on the Hydro press. The handle on the mega mite press is long enough that an average 12 year old can derim 22's. The de-rim die is actually the same one they sell for reloading presses, I just have an adapter from 7/8" to 1 1/2"

1. As Zymurgy50 says above; you need to adjust the de-rim die, higher if required in the press.

2. First -- Make sure that your linkage is set correctly for the Swage position. On my Corbin CSP-1 Swage Press; that would be as appears in the Picture below:

96340

[fredj338]

I got my set form BT when they were a bit cheaper, waited about 9m, but worth it for the quality & completeness of the set. With a core mold, auto eject, everything you need to make quality 0.224 bullets. Could you go cheaper, sure, you always can.

[Utah Shooter]

I got my set form BT when they were a bit cheaper, waited about 9m, but worth it for the quality & completeness of the set. With a core mold, auto eject, everything you need to make quality 0.224 bullets. Could you go cheaper, sure, you always can.

True but just so the OP knows you do not need an auto eject with a Blackmon Press.

[fredj338]

But you need a Blackman press. BTs dies fit my RCBS AM, with some tweeking of the base punches by Brian. The will also work on a cheaper Lee CC.

[Utah Shooter]

You are absolutely correct Did you by chance read his first post?

[newcastter]

But you need a Blackman press. BTs dies fit my RCBS AM, with some tweeking of the base punches by Brian. The will also work on a cheaper Lee CC.
Well gosh darn gee Wally it has to be better!!!!

[BT Sniper]

I have told many inquiring customers they will be very happy with whoever's die set they choose. There are many swagers here happy with either of the Corbin's sets, Blackmon's and/or BTSniper's. Either one you choose will make very good bullets. Let's not let another thread go down the road of my comment is better then yours, like a Ford vs. Chevy discussion, both have been proven to get you where you need to go. Simply pointing out what you like about the set of swage dies you happen to use will aid greatly in allowing potential new swagers to make better educated discussions. After all the goal here is to get more people involved in our hobby and show them the many advantages there is to making your own.

To the orginal poster..... let's see here

-22 cal bullets are small, they do not need a lot of leverage or pressure to make but the deriming step will aid greatly from a strong press.

-A large press can actually slow down your production of these small bullets, example.... the travel of the handle on the Wallnut Hill press and similar presses is a lot, and when mounted vertical to a standard height table will have you bent over considerably to complete the full stroke of the press, not a big deal as many here use this press, I have the Sea Girt myself and mounted it horizontal to alleviate this problem

-shell holder type base punches work but the shell holder slot in a standard reloading press ram is the "week link" in the entire swage set up, I think Corbin still offers dies (suffix "R") to work in standard reloading presses as do I with standard shell holder style base punches. Backmon's dies are 7/8-14 on the top as I understand yet require a slight modification to a RCBS or Redding press to work in a standard reloading press.

-threaded base punches are much better for the pressures involved in swaging ie. RCE, Corbin (suffix "S" and "H") Blackmon and Myself with the Lee Classic Cast

- If you plan to spend more then $94 on a dedicated swage press like the $250+ RCBS you speak of you are better off to get a press like the Wallnut Hill for just over $400, then you can swage any size bullet you wish. Me? I like the Lee Classic cast for making 22 cal bullets at only $94, then I buy one for each step of the process to further increase production rates. With a simple modification to the Lee Press I can double the leverage and swage some very big bullets with it.

- Blackmon's custom press is horizontal and looks to be a decent design for swaging, don't think you would care to reload on it even if you could, yes you can use his dies in a RCBS RC or Redding type press but you need a modified ram and a simple hole drilled in the press.

-Balckmon looks to be least expensive, looks to have a good product that he is able to put together for a very reasonable price. He is able to make his set work with the least amount of excess tooling that allows him to keep cost down, just my opinion from what I have seen. Looks like he offers a package for $595 with three dies and his press plus $140 for a 4 cavity core mold should you choose plus shipping. Many here use this set up and can comment if I missed something. http://bulletswagingsupply.com/index.html

- RCE (Richard Corbin) Also a very reasonable price for good tools yet only work in his Wallnut hill press. I have his sea girt press and a set of his 22 cal dies yet I haven't spent the time to figure out how to use the dies yet. Don't know exact cost of his die set but the 22 cal dies I got where about $600 (without the $80 derim die or any sort of core mold) and his current WH press is about $450 plus shipping http://rceco.com/MN.asp?pg=default

-Corbin (Dave) used to offer "R" dies to fit standard reloading press, my be he still does I'm not sure? I have seen some of his base punches used in standard reloading presses sent to me from customers that have had their share of "challenges" with them. Also have had coments that his 4 cavity core mold is a bit challenging to set up and use. Offered price is $843 does not include $218 core swage die or any sort of ejection system plus shippinghttp://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm

- Corbin "S" dies fit his CSP custom press. A stout looking press that will do anything from the looks of it yet you will pay for his quality and custom dies that only work in his press. Offers complete 22 cal cit with press for $1742 plus shipping * KIT-224S ------ Complete 224 kit: press, dies, mold, lube ---- 1742.00

- BTSniper well there is a lot of info here and a lot of users that will comment on their experience. Lets see..... $1465 Package price Shipped ($1318.50 sale price good till Friday)! that includes everything except the press, brass and lead. Works best with $94 Lee Classic Cast press. Is compatible with many different presses, both dedicated swaging presses and any decent reloading press. Threaded base punches (with Lee Classic Cast press and supplied new ram top). 11 cavity mold! Chromium Nitride coated dies for long life and scratch resistance. I would like to think production rates are a little quicker. I do ship partial order ahead of time when complete order is not quite ready to allow customers to get head start on process of making these bullets.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183513-Available-products-and-current-prices
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?114-BT-Sniper

I would hope I have offered non bias and helpful input to the search for a 22 cal set of dies to best suit your needs. Like I tell all inquiring customers, choose from any of these 4 options and I'm sure you will be very happy with your purchase. The ability to make your own bullets and free yourself from those that attempt to regulate our shooting needs is well worth it no matter who's die set you use.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[fredj338]

You are absolutely correct Did you by chance read his first post?

Yes, but asking about this die set or that & trying to price compare them w/o knowing what else you need is sort of worthless?? So one is really comparing systems, not just dies. I already had a heavy duty press, I didn't really need another. BTs dies work great for me & the price a year ago, affordable.

[newcastter]

Yes, but asking about this die set or that & trying to price compare them w/o knowing what else you need is sort of worthless?? So one is really comparing systems, not just dies. I already had a heavy duty press, I didn't really need another. BTs dies work great for me & the price a year ago, affordable.
So the OP question was worthless?? Interesting...It also seems you didn't answer any of his questions but just wanted to express your personal opinion of Bt and his product, which is fine but then it had to turn into It is the best deal Period. Then continued to drive home how you got such a good deal umpteen years ago which doesn't help this member at all. The OP is discussing quality and pricing so unless you can talk current pricing then you are wasting your time. Does BT make a good set of dies sure but there are plenty of quality options and everyones discription of affordable varies.

[Utah Shooter]

Yes, but asking about this die set or that & trying to price compare them w/o knowing what else you need is sort of worthless?? So one is really comparing systems, not just dies. I already had a heavy duty press, I didn't really need another. BTs dies work great for me & the price a year ago, affordable.

Again you are absolutely correct. That is why I am even commenting.

Blackmon set is roughly $650 with his press (I think) that does not need an auto ejector. Top that with an adjustable core mold that may cost $200 and I can compete with your package for less.

You comment on, "what else you need"... Nothing really. Even the core mold is not "needed". You can appeal to someone who wants to make their own cores... Good, but I and you however can get cores made to weight for .025 cents (or less)a piece.

The fact that you already have a "Heavy Duty Press" does not even compute. Unless you want to count the fact that your system does not come with a press and costs more.

Look, your option this year is not at the price that you paid in the past. I am not trying to be brand myopic. I am being wallet myopic. If I wanted to pay $1,500-$1,800 on a .223 die set I am contacting Dave Deutsch to make me a seat die and a point form die (to whatever ogive and shank I want) to last me and my great, great, great grand kids a lifetime and buying my cores from Charlie.

Sorry I am just not seeing your point.

[MUSTANG]

I think that the best "Answer" to the OP's implied question rests with Fredj338's comment concerning a "Systems Approach". Some of the providers have relatively "Closed Systems". This might be applied to my Corbin Press and Dies, or RCE, or Blackmon, or..... While others are more "Open Systems", such as BTSnipers, CH/4D, et.al.. that operate using more conventional presses such as Lee, RCBS, Lyman, etc...

I would advocate that Chuck Walla and others entering the Swaging arena should spend several months educating themselves on how each of the various options operate, inter-operate with others systems components (if they do), and what "Adapters" may be available from system/component providers or third parties.

I have RCBS, Lee, Lyman, Hornady, Corbin, BTSniper, CH/4D, and several other Systems/Components. Each was bought based on a Cost/Utility/Availability basis, and with rare exceptions I was pleased with each and every component purchased. We are fortunate in that few providers in the Shooting Sports offer poor quality products, for they are rapidly outed for poor quality. Study the products and tailor your purchases to those that meet your needs, no need to bash a Manufacturer or Vendor because one provides a better fit solution for your needs than another. It's a big tent gun show, and all are welcome to compete with their products.

Best wishes to Chuck Walla in his research. Find a product and start making Boolits and Bullets. Welcome to the learning journey, keep asking questions, and share your results and knowledge. We are all better served when that occurs.

[Reload3006]

I think that the best "Answer" to the OP's implied question rests with Fredj338's comment concerning a "Systems Approach". Some of the providers have relatively "Closed Systems". This might be applied to my Corbin Press and Dies, or RCE, or Blackmon, or..... While others are more "Open Systems", such as BTSnipers, CH/4D, et.al.. that operate using more conventional presses such as Lee, RCBS, Lyman, etc...
I would advocate that Chuck Walla and others entering the Swaging arena should spend several months educating themselves on how each of the various options operate, inter-operate with others systems components (if they do), and what "Adapters" may be available from system/component providers or third parties.

I have RCBS, Lee, Lyman, Hornady, Corbin, BTSniper, CH/4D, and several other Systems/Components. Each was bought based on a Cost/Utility/Availability basis, and with rare exceptions I was pleased with each and every component purchased. We are fortunate in that few providers in the Shooting Sports offer poor quality products, for they are rapidly outed for poor quality. Study the products and tailor your purchases to those that meet your needs, no need to bash a Manufacturer or Vendor because one provides a better fit solution for your needs than another. It's a big tent gun show, and all are welcome to compete with their products.

Best wishes to Chuck Walla in his research. Find a product and start making Boolits and Bullets. Welcome to the learning journey, keep asking questions, and share your results and knowledge. We are all better served when that occurs.

Well Said. No matter whose system you opt for you are going to drop a fair amount of coin. Study all your options make a choice you can live with.

[newcastter]

I would advocate that Chuck Walla and others entering the Swaging arena should spend several months educating themselves on how each of the various options operate, inter-operate with others systems components (if they do), and what "Adapters" may be available from system/component providers or third parties.
This is good advice, as hard as it is to not just place an order much research should be done, I am thankful that I purchased a cheaper (at the time) Danr set first as it got me through the learning curve because with the mistakes I made with those dies I would have probably ruined a nicer set of dies, good thing his were tough as nails....

[fredj338]

Sorry I am just not seeing your point.
That would make us even then. My point, you have to consider what you have & or need. If he only needs dies, that is one option, if he wants a separate press, another option. That's all.

[Utah Shooter]

I think that the best "Answer" to the OP's implied question rests with Fredj338's comment concerning a "Systems Approach". Some of the providers have relatively "Closed Systems". This might be applied to my Corbin Press and Dies, or RCE, or Blackmon, or..... While others are more "Open Systems", such as BTSnipers, CH/4D, et.al.. that operate using more conventional presses such as Lee, RCBS, Lyman, etc...

I would advocate that Chuck Walla and others entering the Swaging arena should spend several months educating themselves on how each of the various options operate, inter-operate with others systems components (if they do), and what "Adapters" may be available from system/component providers or third parties.

I have RCBS, Lee, Lyman, Hornady, Corbin, BTSniper, CH/4D, and several other Systems/Components. Each was bought based on a Cost/Utility/Availability basis, and with rare exceptions I was pleased with each and every component purchased. We are fortunate in that few providers in the Shooting Sports offer poor quality products, for they are rapidly outed for poor quality. Study the products and tailor your purchases to those that meet your needs, no need to bash a Manufacturer or Vendor because one provides a better fit solution for your needs than another. It's a big tent gun show, and all are welcome to compete with their products.

Best wishes to Chuck Walla in his research. Find a product and start making Boolits and Bullets. Welcome to the learning journey, keep asking questions, and share your results and knowledge. We are all better served when that occurs.

Very well said Mustang!

[Chuck Walla]

Thanks to all that tried to help. Been reading as much as I can on this place for the last 2 weeks. There sure is a lot to filter through to find the gems that are helpful. I wish there were more stickies with quality info instead of having to read so much. One thing I don't understand about the die makers is why they don't all use 7/8-14 threads on their dies. It sure would be less confusing. I'm still leaning toward Blackmon, seems to be the best for the money.

[Hard_Cast]

Where can you find information regarding CH4D dies? All I am seeing on their site are reloading dies. Do they even still make swaging equipment?

[R.Ph. 380]

Where can you find information regarding CH4D dies? All I am seeing on their site are reloading dies. Do they even still make swaging equipment?

Nope...

[runfiverun]

and they had 2 different systems too.
I have one of their presses and a couple of different half sets of their dies.
and a couple of their press mounted die set-ups.

the issue with swaging is that quite often one makers dies won't work with another ones.
cores being different diameters, core seat dies are different diameters, stems are for different jackets.
you can kinda sometimes add in a couple more steps and make one work with the other, and some sets will take a little 'abuse' that others won't.
I'd pick a system and stick with it for all your swaging chores.
this includes the cleaning/annealing parts of the system.

[Jammersix]

BTSniper, what is your current lead time?

[alfloyd]

"Blackmon lists a press on his site for $180, but I have no idea how good it would be. Also, are his dies compatible with a reloading press?"

His dies will work on a RCBS Rockchuck press, and some other brands, IF you modify the Rockchuck press. This involves drilling a small hole in the press to insert a pin to eject the slug. It does not affect the reloading capabilities to reload on the press, you just change out the ram. The swage die screws into the top of the ram and the punches fit in the 7/8X14 threaded punch holder in the top of the press.

When I got started swaging 223 slugs, about 3 years ago, I bought some of Dr. Blackmon's dies and Rockchuck conversion. The RCBS conversion has a ram built to swage as well as ejecting the slug on the upstroke of the handle.

I have swage die sets that work both ways, die on the ram and die in the top of the reloading press. I, personally, like the die screwed onto the ram system. Although both systems make very good bullets.

Lafaun

[Lizard333]

BTSniper, what is your current lead time?

Plan on close to a year +. At least that is what it is currently. I know he is doing a pretty large order now, getting his backlog and trying to get a head of future orders. Might be shorter, but time will tell.