Resizing Solid Copper or Brass Rod Slugs for Use as Bullets

[yankeeprod]

Just wondering if it is possible to resize 5/16" (0.3125") copper or brass slugs, cut from rod stock, to 0.308" using a bullet sizing die, or series of successively smaller dies. Can I do 0.001" at a pass? 0.0005"?

I'm interested in possibly making my own subsonic loads with solids for my suppressed 300 blk for use on night hog hunts. If I can resize the slugs I could then hollow point them, cut slits down the hollow point, and reshape the point, in an attempt to mimic the Lehigh Defense maximum expansion bullets.

I know I can purchase the bullets from Lehigh Defense, but I'd rather try to make my own if possible, and it would be fun to see if I can make them work right. I don't own a lathe, and I realize copper and brass are completely different animals than lead. I'm just asking if it is at all feasible.

I'm presently getting set up to make cast boolits for this same gun using the Lee TL309-230-5r mold, but it would be nice to do more than just punch pencil holes through the hog.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[308w]

I'm sure you can swage solid copper and brass, but not with sizing dies intended for lead and lead alloys, but you are talking high dollar HEAVY DUTY, very specialized equipment. A much simpler way would be to lathe turn projectiles using your same copper or brass stock. Joey S aka 308w

[yankeeprod]

So what is the maximum that you could size a 0.3125" solid brass or copper slug using a bullet sizing die? 0.0001", 0.0002"...0.001", none what-so-ever?

[customcutter]

You would probably need a hydraulic press, 20 ton minimum and dies 1.5-2 inches minimum thickness. Lead that we swage is able to scratch with a fingernail, and the brass jackets are a few thousands thick, and it takes a well built reloading press to do it. You'd need a lot of pressure to move solid copper or brass. Just my redneck opinion. But I do like the idea.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were swaging (sizing up), didn't realize you were talking about sizing down.

[308w]

Yankeeprod, I guess you can just try it and see what happens, but my prediction is broken equipment.....

[aaronraad]

I'd ask Barnes direct.

If do you get an answer, then it's probably going to be an expensive and complicated event. :(

If you don't get an answer, then it's probably feasible and they won't be looking to divulge any intellectual property. :)

[bangerjim]

Brass rod...even the soft free-machining stuff I use......is harder than Hades as opposed to lead. I certainly would not attempt it except with very special and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ hydraulic presses. Brass will also work-harden very fast when mechanically manipulated.

Cu is softer, yet will take MANY tons of pressure to swage it. And the price of solid Cu bars is off the map today.

With the potential (and unknown) cost of equipment being very high, you are far better off just buying what you want. Casting Pb slugs is one thing to try and save money as we all do. Attempting what you are suggesting is another!!!!!!!

Good luck in your endevour.

bangerjim

[phishroy]

well. i saw on the corbin website they have an option to make copper solids
her is the link to the info': http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#solid

after reading the info on the site i can understand how barnes bullets are made. hole drilled in center and probably get slits punched in at the end go into the point forming die which reduces the hole and compacts the slits.

[customcutter]

That's an interesting process. Maybe worth looking into.

[MOcaster]

My suggestion? Get a hollow point boolit mold. Easier, cheaper, and they expand. Or make traditional cup and core bullets. But this is one good thing about this forum, people are always thinking!

[yankeeprod]

well. i saw on the corbin website they have an option to make copper solids
her is the link to the info': http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#solid

after reading the info on the site i can understand how barnes bullets are made. hole drilled in center and probably get slits punched in at the end go into the point forming die which reduces the hole and compacts the slits.

This is what I planned on doing. Maybe drill out the hollow point before sizing the slug.

[MIBULLETS]

I have heard that Barnes used to draw down copper tubing using a truck to pull the tubing through a draw die. I think it would be much easier for you to pull the lubricated rod through a ring die instead of push it through. As you said, it may take more than one pass with smaller dies, but it is doable. Your final draw should be just under final bullet diameter I would think, then drill your hole or what ever, anneal the bullet and push it into a point forming die.

[yankeeprod]

So here is the plan:

1. Use emery cloth to size the 9/16" (0.3125") copper rod down to somewhere close to 0.3085", or so.

2. Cut the slugs to length, with a goal of getting as much weight as possible, but still leave enough space in the 300 blk case to get to 1,050 fps, or so. Remember the goal is to create a subsonic round (used through a suppressor) that fully expands. Somewhere around 1.5" probably, I'll need to do some calculating on case volume vs bullet depth vs bullet weight.

3. Chamfer both ends of the slug to create a boat tail and start shaping the point.

4. Clamp a block of aluminum in the drill press and drill a 9/16" hole about 1/2" deep. Place the first slug in the hole in the aluminum, which is still clamped on the press, rechuck a 1/32" bit, and drill a hole down the center of the slug to about 1/8" from the base of the slug. Repeat for each slug.

5. Rechuck a 3/32" bit, and drill to the center of the slug. Repeat for each slug.

6. Anneal the slugs.

7. Run them well lubed through a 0.308" sizing die.

8. Set up a jig on the band saw to cut the four slits to length. I'll need to see how deep this will be based on where the bullet seats in the case. I'll cut down to just above to where the case neck will stop.

9. Make a pointing die out steel and point each slug forcing the petals together.

[Lizard333]

Your running into a tricky subject. Let's assume you can swage copper or brass jackets. Problem is, you don't have a lot of room with the 300 Blackout. Brass and copper are not as dense as lead so your looking at even more space taken up.

Personally I use the 311299 with great results. You can find these molds HP'd, so they would be better for hunting.

Not to say doing what you want to do can't be done, but it isn't going to easy. Not even close.

[aaronraad]

Monolithic projectiles are hard to expand under rifle velocities let alone subsonic.

You can see the extent that G2 RA went to with their Radically Invasive Projectile (RIP).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGH7cDFw7c

yankeeprod, how long do think it will take you to get through the 9 steps you've outlined above? Certainly not impossible, but will certainly be a labour of love.

[yankeeprod]

These certainly wouldn't be plinking rounds. If I can make it actually work I would probably never go through 100 rounds in a year, just sight in and then shoot pigs. To all who are wondering about the effectiveness of such a round, you need to take a look at what the Lehigh Defense 300 Blackout 200 grain subsonic loads can do. There are lots of videos in test gelatin on youtube that are amazing for the kind of velocities we're talking about. The problem with the Lehigh Defense bullets is the cost, nearly $1/bullet, or $3/round for loaded ammo, plus I like to tinker. I am also going to work with the Lee TL309-230 to see if I can come close to the same kind of performance in a cast boolit, which would be the easiest. The Lee boolit unalterred will hopefully work as a plinking suppressed round. There is a wide variety of molds I can use for supersonic.

Lizard333 - thanks for the mold recommendation, but I don't want to use gas-checked boolits through the suppressor. I've heard horror stories about gas checks that have separated from the boolit and rattled around the inside of what used to be an expensive suppressor.

Maybe this won't work, but if it does I'll post pics and results.

[phishroy]

thats pretty much how barnes started, other than using a philips punch instead of the band saw. you may run into trouble with the point forming if the cuts are all the way through.
the flaps may want to overlap each other when point forming.
maybe you can find a way to punch in a thin walled philps head that will cut some grooves in the center hole.
just an idea. maybe you can form some sort of jig with a small bottle jack to press it in or something.
ive seen a slow-mo' videos of barnes bullets expanding fully on impact on a tomato and Evan a small water balloon so i think your onto something.
you will probably also need to anneal the copper before each forming step.

[Lizard333]

Yankeeprod, have you looked into the Hi tek coatings? I have personally shot these through suppressors with zero problems. You don't need to apply the gas check as these bullets will only be going 1060 FPS.

Just another avenue.......