Cast bullets and sabot

[Huntsman]

Well after some debating I finally made the decision to cast my own pistol bullets for my TC Encore inline. I am doing this simply beacause of my disappointment with the 300gr Hornady SST's I'd been using. I lost 2 deer too many this fall, I believe the reason was the SST's would "blow-up" and not give good penetration.
So for next year I'll be trying out some 300 .45cal RF bullets, MMP (short) sabots and T7 powder. Has anyone else tried this with good results?
Cheers,

[Onlymenotu]

Hi there Huntsman and welcome to the board,,, now to your question . I hunt with the nef sidekick 50 cal and started off using the hornady 300 xtp's witch I liked..killed the one and only doe I ever shot at with them( the xtp's) ... was about 35-40 yard shot if memory serves me right complete pass through DRT and found the slug burried deep in a oak tree some 10 more yards away but those xtp's are pricey in my book,,,,so I started looking around for something cheaper and I came up with the Lee C452-300-RF witch I cast out of pure soft lead and married it to a Harvester sabot ( I have both the long and short can't say I see mutch differance one way or the other in the lenght differance) and charged it with 85 grains of tripple7,,, and I've shot deer from 30 yards to 107 yards( in fact 2 at the 107 yard mark... witch was a measured pre season just to make sure the distance was a shootable distance) and every shot was/has been a complete pass through.

Blood trails ranged from DRT to blood that a blind man could follow...... to very very little for the first 25 to 30 yards before it opend up any real sign of being hit( witch was one of the 107 yard shots a complete pass through of both shoulders and the lungs witch was shot mid shoulder,,,so the blood had to fill to the spill point before it could bleed out... but i knew it was a good hit... and the deer went in to the full blind death run ) the only deer I've ever lost is the one I missed when I shot at it IF I've done my part the boolit and gun have done they're part.......I think scence I've had the gun the count is 10 shots, 1 complete miss and 9 dead deer,,,,, so you make the call I'm very happy with pure soft cast slug and it's preformance

you should have any problem casting something that will do what you want it to do...... Good luck

[RugerFan]

With my CVA Optima Pro (.50 cal) I've had good luck with 100 gns 777 pushing a Lyman 429244 in a Harvestor sabot. Killed numerous deer, hogs & coyotes with this combination. Hammers them good.

[testhop]

huntsman ( good name
welcome abooooard i never could see useing jacketwhen cast would do a better job
some other ideas a t.c maxie ball a buffalo bullet you just have to try them out and see what your gun likes

[cattleskinner]

This year was the first year I have used hard cast out of a sabot, and all I have to say is aim in the lower half of the chest in order to have a blood trail soon after the shot. I have found if you hit higher, it takes a bit before the blood makes it to the entrance/exit holes in order to bleed, just like somebody had already said. Look in the hunting section, and you can see pics of the ones I got this year and the load I used.

~Amos

[Lloyd Smale]

ive used 300 rcbs swc and 320 ballistic cast lfn 45s and lyman devestator 44s in sabots for years. One thing you no doubt realize you will have to do is some serious experimenting. The guns ive done this in seem even more particular about which weight and design of a bullet that shot well then a standard centerfire rifle. Last one i tried the groups looked more like shotgun patterns then groups till if found it prefered heavier bullets. I ended up with a 45 cal ballistic cast 350 lfn and it was scary accurate with that bullet and only that bullet. One thing thats nice is that you can experiment with softer alloys and not worry about leading. My thoughts for next year are to cast this 350 with a pure nose and the rest of the bullet out of 5050 ww/lyno. Kind of like a 350 grain 45 cal nosler partition. I doubt if a guy pushed that to 1500 fps out of an inline that theres a game animal on this planet that would walk away from a hit.

[Huntsman]

Wow, Thank you for all your comments. I went and ordered from Midsouth Shooters Supply, a Lee Lee C452-300-RF ,Thanks Onlymenotu! I also orderd a Lyman 20ga sabot slug mould.
I have a good supply of MMP sabots so it looks like this spring I'll be busy.

[crowbeaner]

I shoot the RCBS 44-240-SWC gascheck bullet over 100 gr. of RS pyrodex with a T/C black hi velocity sabot. I also shoot the RCBS 245 KT bullet over 90 gr. with the same sabot. I cast up some Lyman 452490 255 gr. SWCs this summer but haven't tried them yet. I'm going to try some squirrel loads with the green Hornady sabot and .433 round ball over 50-60 gr. of RS. I've taken 2 deer with the first load and both were BANG,FLOP,twitch. CB.

[Kragman71]

Hello
I have a CVA Wolf,and I would like to use my 320 grain Gould bullets in it(.457 dia) I suppose that I will have ti resize them to .452 dia.Ialso have some 393grain bullets.Has anyone tried them in a sabot in a 50 cal MZL?
Frank

[NSP64]

K-man 71
I believe that mmp or harvester makes a sabot for .50 cal that holds a .458 boolit. Just checked mmp makes an orange color one for .457-458 boolits, they say 250-500 gr range but recommend 250-300 for deer.

[Kragman71]

NSP64
I went to the mmp website.They have a full range of sabots for MZL bullets.I'mgoing to order som orange for my .458 bullets and some black for the .452 bullets.
The site has a link to chuck hawks site.That s a very informative site.
Frank

[lungbuster1]

Any one have PIC of the bullets that they cast to shoot out of sabots ?

[yarro]

I tried some out of my .50, but the sabots and cast bullets were given to me by a freind who recently died so I do not know what bullet is was and who made the sabots. They shot just as well as the XTPs did.

-Yarro

[RugerFan]

Any one have PIC of the bullets that they cast to shoot out of sabots ?

The bullet with sabot is a RCBS 44-240-SIL. The other is a Lyman 429244 (It's only gas checked because I pulled it from a 44 mag round). I have more experience with the later and it has done well on big game.

[7BRU]

ive used 300 rcbs swc and 320 ballistic cast lfn 45s and lyman devestator 44s in sabots for years. One thing you no doubt realize you will have to do is some serious experimenting. The guns ive done this in seem even more particular about which weight and design of a bullet that shot well then a standard centerfire rifle. Last one i tried the groups looked more like shotgun patterns then groups till if found it prefered heavier bullets. I ended up with a 45 cal ballistic cast 350 lfn and it was scary accurate with that bullet and only that bullet. One thing thats nice is that you can experiment with softer alloys and not worry about leading. My thoughts for next year are to cast this 350 with a pure nose and the rest of the bullet out of 5050 ww/lyno. Kind of like a 350 grain 45 cal nosler partition. I doubt if a guy pushed that to 1500 fps out of an inline that theres a game animal on this planet that would walk away from a hit.

sounds pretty interesting but how do you cast the two different alloys. I am new to this stuff and would like to know.

BRU

[DanWalker]

To cast a composite boolit(soft nose, hard shank) isn't real difficult.
I just melt a 454 pure lead roundball in a ladle, floating on top of my molten alloy. I pour this pure lead in the mould first, then IMMEDIATELY fill the rest of the mould cavity as normal, with the WW metal alloy I have melted in the pot(bottom pour furnace)
That's all there really is to it.
One thing that helps is to run the mould hot. I put my mould into the alloy for about 10 seconds or so every time before I pour in a freshly melted roundball.

[7BRU]

thanks

bru

[Huntsman]

Well after some range testing I felt a little dissapointed. I used both T7 & Pyrodex RS in 100gr volume and 90gr volume charges....the groupings were horrendous!!!
Awful, awful, awful. Is the charge too big or too small? I'm having 2nd thoughts on these.....

[TRM]

I shoot 44 cal. cast in my 50. I have two front-stuffers, one likes 90gr. t7 the other will only likes 60gr. t7:roll:

[7BRU]

I remeber reading somewhere that u want to have the petals of the sabot sticking out past the end of the bullet?

anybody know about this.

BRU

[Huntsman]

Well, if it's a petal issue then I'll try my Nosler black sabots instead of my MMP ones....

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Huntsman -

I am not sure of your experience with black powder so if this is to elementary then I apologize.

Concerning your powder charge... I would first start with a minimum charge of 60 grains and work your way up through 80 to 90 grains. I think with the advent of Pyrodex pellets and the in-line rifles that many black powder hunters are mislead by thinking that you have to have 90+ grains to hunt whitetail deer. It is just not so. I have several black powder rifles (from .32 through .69 cal) and everyone of them are extremely effective on deer with less than 100 grains of powder. I would recommend that you find a large white sheet and lay on the ground in front of you when you are increasing your charge. When you begin to find unburnt powder on the sheet, then you are at the maximum charge for that rifle with that powder and that bullet. You will probably also find that the most accurate load is less than the maximum charge that the rifle with burn.

Also, (again if elementary, sorry) the most important factor in black powder accuracy is consistency in loading. The greatest advantage of the cartridge was the fact that a weapon could be loaded in any reasonable fashion and that powder charge/bullet seating would be "consistent". You must load your black powder rifle exactly the same every time you load it. If you very the amount that you compress the load prior to seating the boolit then you will change the point of impact.If you very the amount that you compress the load when seating the boolit then you will change the point of impact. This is the art and the science of black powder shooting. Once you master this, then its a matter of finding the boolit that the weapon likes to shoot.

Kind Regards
Everett

[7BRU]

Huntsman -

I am not sure of your experience with black powder so if this is to elementary then I apologize.

Concerning your powder charge... I would first start with a minimum charge of 60 grains and work your way up through 80 to 90 grains. I think with the advent of Pyrodex pellets and the in-line rifles that many black powder hunters are mislead by thinking that you have to have 90+ grains to hunt whitetail deer. It is just not so. I have several black powder rifles (from .32 through .69 cal) and everyone of them are extremely effective on deer with less than 100 grains of powder. I would recommend that you find a large white sheet and lay on the ground in front of you when you are increasing your charge. When you begin to find unburnt powder on the sheet, then you are at the maximum charge for that rifle with that powder and that bullet. You will probably also find that the most accurate load is less than the maximum charge that the rifle with burn.

Also, (again if elementary, sorry) the most important factor in black powder accuracy is consistency in loading. The greatest advantage of the cartridge was the fact that a weapon could be loaded in any reasonable fashion and that powder charge/bullet seating would be "consistent". You must load your black powder rifle exactly the same every time you load it. If you very the amount that you compress the load prior to seating the boolit then you will change the point of impact.If you very the amount that you compress the load when seating the boolit then you will change the point of impact. This is the art and the science of black powder shooting. Once you master this, then its a matter of finding the boolit that the weapon likes to shoot.

Kind Regards
Everett

yes sir i agree with everything you mentioned. hopefully get another chance to shoot it on saturday if the weather cooperates. going to eliminate a scope problem and start at 60 grains and see if that helps.

BRU

[Huntsman]

Thanks alot for your comment Everret, I will definitely use your tips my next trip out to the range, hopefully this weekend. I suppose I never really gave my loads much of a chance and the frustration got the better of me. I'll post my results when completed,
Thanks again,
Jamie

[skullmount]

Well after some range testing I felt a little dissapointed. I used both T7 & Pyrodex RS in 100gr volume and 90gr volume charges....the groupings were horrendous!!!
Awful, awful, awful. Is the charge too big or too small? I'm having 2nd thoughts on these.....

I think its too big!
Drop back to 65 or 70 grains. Do some testing useing 10 65 grain loads, then 10 70 grain loads and so on.

I have hunted with 40, 45(sabot) and 50 caliber, the largest hunting load was 75 or 80 grains......

Less is More, when you want to hit the bull and not just the target.

[Onlymenotu]

Like the other guys said.....slowww downnn start with less powder,,,, work your way up * looking for the sweet spot*

you never mentioned the primers have you tryed others ? sometimes the accuracy comes from within the primers!! there was some speculation that some off the hotter primers may dislodge the bullet/sabot from the powder casuing a airspace- jump causing inaccuracies

you never said if you picked up any of the sabots* the sabots should all be pretty close to the same area* ... and inspected them for torn petals or were the petals folded back/open or were there rifle engravings on them if so were the stripped or torn in any way shape or form ,if the cup portion was burn/undercut from gas escaping

:roll: you never lubed the bullets... before you incerted them in to the sabot,, did ya?* they are ment to shoot dry/unlubed*

how did they load.....nice and smooth,,,,,,,,or fall down the barrel....... or so tight you had to stand on the ramrod to load them

give us some more detail and take your time i'm sure in no time the fellows will have you shooting groups you'll be happy with

[Murphy]

Howdy fellow BP shooters!

While I've been on CB for 2 years now, I don't recall making any contributions to this section. I have however been a BP hunter for 20 years now.

I've been down the many roads of various rifles/boolits/powders/ignition systems.

I own both a sidehammer T/C White Mountain (which would be one of the last guns I'd ever part with) and a T/C Omega. I know to some, that the inlines don't count as real BP guns...and I'm fine with that.

What my personal experience has been. My White Mountain loves MMP sabots and .45/250 Gr. XTP bullets and cast #429421's.

The Omega despise's cast #429421's in ANY sabot. I was almost ready to give up on it and as a last resort..'gulp' I bought factory made projectiles designed just for my T/C inline. BINGO!

That being said, I have since wondered if anyone else has considered putting together a group buy for a mold that drops boolits designed as a carbon copy of what T/C sells?

Perhaps we should kick around this idea?

Thanks,

Murphy

[Huntsman]

Like the other guys said.....slowww downnn start with less powder,,,, work your way up * looking for the sweet spot*

you never mentioned the primers have you tryed others ? sometimes the accuracy comes from within the primers!! there was some speculation that some off the hotter primers may dislodge the bullet/sabot from the powder casuing a airspace- jump causing inaccuracies
Primers used were Winchester W209
you never said if you picked up any of the sabots* the sabots should all be pretty close to the same area* ... and inspected them for torn petals or were the petals folded back/open or were there rifle engravings on them if so were the stripped or torn in any way shape or form ,if the cup portion was burn/undercut from gas escaping
The sabots opened up nicely, like they should've, No broken petals
:roll: you never lubed the bullets... before you incerted them in to the sabot,, did ya?* they are ment to shoot dry/unlubed*
Nope, no lube
how did they load.....nice and smooth,,,,,,,,or fall down the barrel....... or so tight you had to stand on the ramrod to load them
Nice & smooth or normal as compared to SST's or XTP's I've loaded
give us some more detail and take your time i'm sure in no time the fellows will have you shooting groups you'll be happy with

I have way more confidence now after reading all the helpful tips everyone has offered, as a matter of fact, as soon as I log off I'm going out to the garage to cast some more!!
Cheers All

[Huntsman]

Well today I had a chance at the range, I started with 60gr/3 shot
group @50yds.(no wind)..SWEET :D Damn near all holes touching. I then moved to 70grs with a 1" group at 50yds as well, with 80grs the group opened up to 1.15"- 2" group and right of bullseye.
Now I tried at 100yds (wind started to pickup) the 70gr hit about 2.5" high of bull and 2" left, then it was too windy to carry on to achieve reasonable/proper groupings. So definately the 70 gr so far....??
Here is what I chronied; All loads were with Triple 7 FFG, Lee 300gr .45 RF boolit,
1) 60grs 1521 fps
2) 70grs 1649 fps
3) 80grs 1675 fps
I'll be going back out next wknd to work my 100yd groups.
Cheers,

[Underclocked]

You are gettin there, Huntsman. Now you just need to go full bore with the lead. ;)

[Lucky Joe]

For years I shot my TC Renegade with saboted pistol bullets and it was hard to find one that didn't perform well, at least well enough to drop a deer at 100 yds. Two years ago I picked up an H&R Huntsman, it just loves the Lee REAL boolit. Haven't fired my Renegade since.

Thinking about it though for old times sake. She sure is a reliable weapon.

[Onlymenotu]

Well today I had a chance at the range, I started with 60gr/3 shot
group @50yds.(no wind)..SWEET :D Damn near all holes touching. I then moved to 70grs with a 1" group at 50yds as well, with 80grs the group opened up to 1.15"- 2" group and right of bullseye.
Now I tried at 100yds (wind started to pickup) the 70gr hit about 2.5" high of bull and 2" left, then it was too windy to carry on to achieve reasonable/proper groupings. So definately the 70 gr so far....??
Here is what I chronied; All loads were with Triple 7 FFG, Lee 300gr .45 RF boolit,
1) 60grs 1521 fps
2) 70grs 1649 fps
3) 80grs 1675 fps
I'll be going back out next wknd to work my 100yd groups.
Cheers,

:drinks: well it sound's like your a little happier this time ( glad its starting to come together for you ) you'll have the energy you need to get the job done.... don't read to mutch in to the fps..... as it's not as importiant as the grouping...... you got hit the target,,,,,, to kill it,,,,,, being fast as h3ll don't get the job done,,, if you can't hit it.....at some point they're becomes a trade off

good luck with the sabot quest

[Huntsman]

Thanks again Onlymenotu, I really appreciate the support. I'm heading out again this wknd, weather depending....it may start snowing again but that's CANADA for ya!!
When you said full bore you mean like a Minie or REAL boolit right?
Cheers,

[Huntsman]

Well things are definately getting better group wise. 1st I switched sabot size from short to long petals, loaded up 100grs loose T7, shot at a 50yd target, "BULLSEYE!!" on the 1st shot!!
I must add to that it was -15 degrees celsius which equals= 5 degrees fahrenheit.
So it was pretty chilly. Well I fired four more shots after that, 2 holes were touching at
2 O'clock and 2 were touching at 4 O'clock. So that make a total of 1 bullseye, 2 touching @ 2 and 2 touching @ 4. I must say that I am pretty happy with this as it shows some consistency.
I must also point out that the sabots I used were close to 3 years old(Nosler .451-.452). I found some that were good, ok and missing petals. So two things to consider are the -15 weather and the age of the sabots. I will try again once it gets alot warmer out.

[Underclocked]

Nope, like a conical such as those Bull Shop produces. :)

[Saint]

I tried shooting .49 roundballs in sabots out of my .54 rifle.. Definitely a different experience. Has anybody ever tried moulding their own plastic sabots.