Comblain rifle???

[mikeym1a]

Last fall, when I went to the Pawn Shop/FFL dealer to pick up my AR receiver, there was a VERY long rifle in his rack. Actually there were several. BUT, I skipped past the usual Mausers, and Lee-Enfields, and went to the odd one. Very large falling block rifle. I wanted it, but, no extra money, after getting my AR parts. However, it has stuck in my mind for these past several months, so yesterday I decided to go back, and have another look at it. It was still there! I got to handle it, open the breech, and look down the bore. Some dirt and dust, but NO rust. Rifling was crisp and shiney, the action felt really tight, and it was beautifully balanced. It did not feel like a rifle nearly 5 ft long. So, I asked the price. I was given a price, and I replied I didn't have that much on me, and would they do a 'lay-away', to which the boss replied 'Certainly!'. So, I put down the 1st payment, and hope to bring it home to live, just in time for the spring shooting season. It is costing me $739.00 'out-the-door', as the boss said. Wonder if this is a good price? Don't know. Do I care? Perhaps, a little. The stock is in not such great shape, the barrel bands are missing. BUT, it will be mine, flaws and all. AND, I bet that nobody else at the range will have one! Anybody out there shoot one? The Cartridge Making Handbook (not the proper title) tells me which BELL case to use to make ammo, but, does anyone make dies for this? Any suggestions? Thanks. mikey 8-)

[mikeym1a]

I obviously have not made a chamber cast, yet. I'll have to go and ask the boss it I can do it on site. think I'll use candle way. Seems easier than cerrosafe, as I've had trouble with the most recent batch not wanting to release. And while I'm there I'll slug the bore. BUT, that is for another day. The rifle is chambered for the 11X50R Albini cartridge, or so I've read. The carbine is chambered for the 11X42R, I believe, and I've also seen an 11X52R in the cartridge making book. All for the Comblain. Ah, gee. I wanna go play! sigh. :-D

[texassako]

Buckshot has a very interesting series of posts here on the Comblain, I think in the same caliber.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have one where the original barrel has been bored out to take a shotgun round (16ga). This action is set aside for a 40/70 Sharps project. The arrangement of a single spring that powers the hammer and trigger is unique among the single shot world!

[JSH]

I ran across a bayonet that has been around here since I was a kid. I looked through every bayonet book I ever had access too no luck. I happened to grab a shotgun news some years back and there was an article in there with exact bayonet I had. Seems the comblains were made of iron if I recall. Have the article around here some place.
Jeff

[mikeym1a]

Info is really scarce on these old guns. Perhaps it is because of its age, and the small country that used them, although they did sell quite a few to Central and South American countries. According to what I read, the first series had a bronze phosphor receiver, with an iron barrel. The later models have an iron receiver and barrel. From the looks of things, mine is the later model. I did come across one site with lots of info, but, it was an historic site in Belgium, and I don't read the local language, darn it. According to what I have read, they fired a paper patched, greased boolit. I guess that would account for the fine shape of the barrel on mine. It'll take me a couple of months to pay it off. Can't dip into my heating budget until later in the season. I am looking forward to shooting it. Neat, old gun. :-D

[mikeym1a]

I got some brass to make cartridges for my Comblain. The Cartridge Making Handbook recommends the .470 Nitro Express. NOW there is a cartridge! Great big beautiful chunk of brass. I want a gun that fires that one! Got the brass from Jamison. To make the brass for the Comblain, I'll have to trim off about 1/3 of the case. SAD! But that is what it takes. Plus I'll have to get some brass washers of the proper diameter and thickness to build up the rim. It should be an interesting endeavor. pic attached. One of my converted blank brass 8mm's for size comparison. :-D

97034

[texassako]

Those look big and expensive. Good luck getting it going!

[mikeym1a]

Been doing a bit of reading and cogitating. Finally got a couple .45acp slugs and smushed them a tiny bit and decided to slug the bore. I had read somewhere that the bore was a bit larger at the breach than the muzzle. Well, not on my gun. I smushed a .45 until it read .460, and put a dab of alox on it, and dropped it in the breach, and drove it in about 3 in. and drove it back out. I did the same at the muzzle. The lands and grooves read the same, lands - .433, grooves - .453. Pretty deep rifling. And, the rifling at the muzzle is as crisp as the breach. Since I have found 4 different cartridges for the comblain in the cartridge making book, guess I'll have to make a chamber cast to see what I've got. Now that my machinist is out of the hospital, I hope he will have some time to help me make a reamer so that I can make some dies, so that I can make some cartridges. I'm so tired of winter, snow, and cold. I really wanna go out and play! Wish me luck!

[mikeym1a]

Made a cartridge for my Comblain rifle this afternoon. I used .470 Nitro Express brass from CustomBrass&Bullets. It had the Jamison headstamp. Jamison bought out the assets of BELL brass. They in turn were bought bought up by Custom Brass & Bullets. ANYWAY, tht is where I got mine. Custom Brass's prices are a good bit lower than some of the other sites I've looked at. These .470NE cases are only $2.30/case. Some other websites want double that, and in larger quantities. I shaped my first case by trimming it to what appeared the correct length, and gently drove it into the chamber. I was REEAALLLLLLY careful doing this. Surprisingly, it seemed to work. I then proceeded to mangle the case mouth with a flaring tool vise, in a effort to neck it down even more. After a while, I got it to where it chambered ~ok. Then I seated a large pistol primer (misread the box), put in 20gr of 4198, and filled the vast open area with dacron, and seated a 200gr .45acp cast booolit in the case mouth. So, I took it out back, chambered it, closed the breach, aimed and pulled the trigger. 'Click'. huh? 'Bang!'. HHHmmmm????????? Case wasn't really full formed. So, I recapped the case, and then used 30grs of 3031, and dacron. Seated another slug. Went outside, and tried again. This time, pull trigger and immediate 'BANG!'. Went back inside, pulled case. Still not perfectly fire-formed. Once again, recap (i noticed I was picking up a LP box. Put is down, muttering, and picked the LR primers) , 38grs of 3031, dacron, this time a paper patched 300gr boolit. Back outside I go, chamber, and aim, and pull trigger; much louder 'BANG!'. Not really that much recoil. Since this is a new to me model 1882 Comblain, I did not know if it would stay together. I was standing sideways, holding it at arms length, like a pistol, with my left hand gripping the butt. The first shot had almost no recoil. The second a bit more. The third, a bit more, but nowhere near as much as my argentine mauser with milsurp ammo. So, the gun stayed together. The Handloaders manual of cartridge conversions lists 3 Comblain cartridge, and one albini, which is about the same, and 2 use 4198, and the other 2 use 3031. The highest load is 45grs of 3031. I used 30grs, and then 37. There are still a few creases in the case shoulder where I mangled it that haven't come out, so, the pressures must be pretty low. I've got a good chamber cast, and the case exhibits a very short neck. So, now for making more cases. But, if my machinist friend is not too busy, and has the energy, I really need to make some dies. It was very satisfying to make it go 'BANG!'. Although with only one case, shooting a string of ten would take a while. sigh. But it was fun! Now to find a proper boolit. Cheers![smilie=p:

[mikeym1a]

Well, I had a 430-310 lee mold. I lapped it out, and it now measures .438. I have ordered a .435 sizer from buckshot. Once that gets here, I can make patched boolits for my gun. Later today, I think I'll start converting those other cases. :-)

[Buckshot]

............Your dies are on the way :-) You need to go to this website: http://www.militaryrifles.com/ if you haven't already. Check down through the various countries and click on the 'Comblain' entries. There is quite a bit of information and history there.

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From what I gather and the markings present on my carbine is that it was one of the last Brazilian orders in 1892. The chamber casting above shows no caseneck in the chamber and a fired case bears the fact out. Seems that since there were many bottle necked cases around by that date, this no neck chamber seems odd. However the circumstances of the various Comblains' manufacture may have been the reason for it as they were apparently made up by various members of a gun making consortium.

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For a falling block the action is unique in that there is no linkage between the lever and thee breechblock. In the left photo you can see that the breechblock pivots directly on the lever. Also the breech block is one piece with the trigger housing. The lever has a single screw that the block pivots on, which goes through the action. So by removing that one screw, everything will come out the bottom of the action except for the extractor. To the right is a spring compressor I had to make. The mainspring powering the hammer is a 'V' spring contained in the trigger housing, and is directly behind and parallel with the trigger. The trigger acts directly with a notch on the hammer, while one leg of that 'V' spring is captured by that (RIGHT photo) stirrup which swings via a screw through the hammer.

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Here it is in action. Trust me, if you try to use a screw driver or other 'makee do' odds and ends trying to get that spring compressed to get the stirrup over, you'll probably end up stabbing your thumb, hand, or whatever else you might have in the way! I really like that replaceable firing pin feature!

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In the left photo is the size and seater dies I'd made. I used the 7/8" hard chromed strut rods from an '87 Chevy Celebrity! As I'd mentioned I use the CBC 32ga shotshells for brass. Since you're going to be using those expensive .470 Nitro cases I'd for sure get with Dave at CH-4D die company and have him gin up a pair for you. The ones I made suffice just fine and after 6-7 firings I haven't lost a case yet, but mine do NOT cost almost $3 each, so I'd REALLY want them to live a long life.

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I'd been using a tubing cutter to shorten the brass. It wasn't very accurate and it took too much time so I made a spring collet to hold the case in a 5C collet in the lathe. I took a piece of .750" stock and rather then mess around boring the same taper as the brass I merely bored one end to the OD of the case above the rim, swapped it around and bored the other end out to the OD of the brass at that distance ABOVE the rim. Then I bored a relief between the 2 bands. Much easier and full length contact isn't required. The piece then went into a hexagonal 5C collet block in the mill vice. Three slots 120º apart were cut. The collet was reversed, indexed 60º off one of the slits and 3 more were cut. It now takes about 15 seconds to cleanly part off each case, never stopping the lathe. Just opening and closing the 5C collet removing and replacing the shotshell case.

[Buckshot]

...........Since I was getting fancy and had a bit of time a few weeks later I decided I needed another accessory.

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Doesn't seem like the cases are stretching that much, but I figured I might need to trim them. Since I also have a couple .577 Sniders I decided to make the cutter (Lee type setup) large enough to use for it also. I used a piece of .750" O-1, milled the 4 cutters in, D&T'd it 1/4-28 for the length guage rod and hardened it.

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A few days later I made the length gauge.

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Finally I got around to making the casehead holder. Since most of my cases are altered to use the 209 shotshell primer, 7/16" (.437") seemed to be a bit too small yet so I made the pressure stud .450" and threaded it 24 tpi. Then made the shell holder part, drilled and threaded it.

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While I was at it and still had the setup in place I figured I should make a new shellholder with a hole large enough to pass a spent 209 primer. All I have to have now is enough time to be able to go shot the thing! :-)

...............Buckshot

[mikeym1a]

I was wondering if you had shot it yet. Mine is not pretty, in fact, quite sad looking. Both barrel bands are missing. One of the stock escutcheons is missing, there is no ramrod. Just a sad looking stock, and a bit rusty barrel, a lock. BUT, it fires. I used .45acp boolits to try and fireform the cases. The cases are made from .470 rigby express cases, (I will try some of the less costly 32ga brass!) and the sidewalls of the case measure .019 thick. The powder charge seemed to have no effect on the brass. Glad to hear the dies are on the way. I have lapped out a .430 boolit mold to .436. This sure is fun. Many thanks! mikey

[mikeym1a]

Another question.... The Handloaders Manual for Cartridge Making lists 4 different Comblain cartridges, some use 4198, which I have little of, and the others use 3031, of which I have some. Why couldn't you use a shotgun powder? A 12 guage throws 1 1/4 oz of shot at 1300-1500 for a given powder charge, with a similar length barrel. Why would that not work in the Comblain? I have about 5 lbs of Red Dot, and I'm trying to maximize my resources. mikey

[CLAYPOOL]

I like to use the vice on the BACK of serves truck of my neighbors dirt moving business to hold any rifle for a few shots to verified that it is proof of pressure. A long string and go around the side and give a pull. Its never silly to be safe of a unknown rifle and cartage combo.

[mikeym1a]

Not to worry, this is not my first dance. I fired the gun with the same cartridge with increasing powder charges, and was careful of my person. There is no play in this action, and it locks up really tight. The gun fired properly, no sign of any weakness, case ejected smartly. I have looked through the cartridge making handbook, and most of the cases of that era that had the same water capacity all had listed loads of either 4198 or 3031, and the MV was in the 1200fps-1400fps range, just as it would have been with BP. That was why I was wondering about using shotgun powder. Buckshot, the Serial # on my gun is 29995. What is the one on yours? the Pawn Shop guy said they were made up until about 1900, and this one has no production date, as some of them do. The bore cast shows a case head diameter of .588, which is listed as the size for the Brazilian Contract Rifle. (this is certainly no carbine!) Cheers!

[Huvius]

Did you anneal the 470 brass?
If not, try it. It will help immensely with fire forming. Just don't do it before trimming and heat the case just down below the shoulder.
I have fire formed 360No.2 Bertram brass which needs a huge amount of blowing out quite successfully.

[mikeym1a]

Oh,yes, I did anneal the .470 cases. I don't think I could have gotten them to form otherwise. That brass is really thick! Following Buckshot's suggestion, I got some 32ga brass shotgun cases, and trimmed them. Seems I didn't get any two of them the same, but, I still think they will work. And they are a third the cost of the Nitro cases. Just going through the Cartridge Conversion manual, there are several cartridges that can be used, with increasing amounts of work needed to make them work. There is the .43 Beaumont case (is there gold in those?), The .470 Nitro Express, the 348 Winchester (never priced them), and the 375 and 460 Weatherby Magnum cases. If I was going to be doing this alot, I'd see if I couldn't get a mini-lathe. The weatherby cases have to have the belts turned off, and the rim built up. The .348 needs the rim built up, and a shim put around the head of the case. And the .470 also needs a shim around the head, and the rim built up. All the cases need shortening. The Cartridge Conversion Manual lists 3 comblain cases and one for the Albini. (If I remember correct, it was the rifle the Comblain replaced.) They are all close. I just did another chamber cast, and have measured it and wrote it down. If you read Buckshot's notes on his gun, the case has no neck in the traditional sense. It slopes at the shoulder, down to the point where the case neck would be, and simply stops at that point. There is a short .185 leade and then the rifling. Pretty deep rifling, two. The bore diameter is .433, and the groove diameter is .453. The original loads were paper patched. I'm going to try PP'ing. If it doesn't work right, due to the lack of a real neck, I may switch to a traditional .454 boolit. If anyone is interested, I'm attaching a pic of the chamber cast, and the measurements. As I said, the Cartridge manual lists 4 cartridges potentially for this rifle. The measurements I got off the chamber cast pretty much match the 11.4X50 Brazilian Comblain M74. All of the four in the book show a traditional neck, but, the cast does not show one.

99731

[MT Chambers]

One word....Trail Boss!

[mikeym1a]

I spent an hour or so looking through the book 'Propellant Properties', comparing the powders that are listed for the comblain, and seeing what was of about the same burn rate, and Trail Boss did pop out at me. I have conferred with Buckshot on this, and the powders listed in the Cartridge Conversion handbook are the ones he recommends. I have no experience with these powders and old guns, so I asked someone who did. But, it is still a matter of what powders are available to me. The 'Handbook' recommends 4198 & 3031. I am almost out of 4198, but do have a fresh can of 3031. I'll have to see what the local LGS's have in stock. I know I could order it through the mail, but, I can't justify paying $65.00 for one lb of powder. PLUS!!!! The temps dropped, and now there is 6in of snow on the ground, again, which means it will be another week before I can get to the range. I really wanna go out and play.....sigh.........

[Buckshot]

..........So far as powder goes, you need to hook up with some other shooters and get squared away to do some bulk buys for powder and primers. I was lucky enough to have had a range that was only 5 miles from my driveway, and even more blessed to have had several pals to shoot with. We shot EVERY Tuesday. We all reloaded, we all cast, and we were all afflicted with gun lunacy :-) Every Tuesday after we ate lunch we'd shoot a 10 round cast boolit match offhand, iron sights at 50 yards. We each kicked in a buck and high score took the pot. It wasn't to hard to put together a powder or primer order. We were also into surplus powders and our largest buy was 128 lbs. That was 16, 8 lb jugs. Graf's used to have a deal where you bought 96 lbs and they'd pay the freight. Things are a bit different now, but getting a few buddies together can sure bring costs down.

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This was my Comblain's very first range outing. These were fired at 50 yards off the bench. The boolit was the Lyman 292gr 457191. The group fired with Blue Dot only shows 7 holes instead of 10 as I used the 3 rounds to find out where the little rascal was wanting to print. It really liked the SR4759 load :-) It must be remembered that at this time I had no real way to size my 32ga brass shotshells.

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The 2 cases marked "A" have been mangled back into submission enough to be loaded. I used quite an assortment of various reloading dies, plus driving the cases into the carbine's chamber with a wooden dowel. They'd been altered to accept 209 shotshell primers. You don't have to look too close to see the rather casual neck length treatment. Also, compare them to the 2 below.

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Another example of case mangle-izaton in order to shoot the beast. This was very early in my Comblain history. On the left is an unsized 32 guage brass shotshell. Next is the case shortened, annealed, and then run up into a 577-450 Martini Enfield die to form the shoulder. If you study the neck, you can see it's a bit cattywhumpus (tech term) to the case's centerline axis. To it's right is the case after being run up into a universal decapping die to reduce the shoulder and body diameter. Then the chamber cast. I can only figure that the ammo had a shoulder and then neck to hold the bullet. At firing the shoulder is blown out straight. Seems pretty idiotic to me, but you can see the chamber cast for yourself :-)! Since the cases are sitting on their bases and the chamber cast has a head quite a bit thicker than need be, the case mouth is actually very close to the beginning of the rifling if it were held up in correct position to the camber cast.

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Two new sized cases (after I'd made my size die) ready to be fire formed. The label tape is there to take up some windage in the chamber. Two wraps adds 0.016" in OD and is just shy of a snug fit. This allows the case to expand evenly all around. After that firing the case is centered and the size die doesn't touch the case for a distance above the rim, so once done they're good to go. It is amazing to me that these cases are standing up to the abuse they get in firing and re-sizing, yet they're still hanging in there. My most experienced 20 cases have 7 firings and I haven't lost one yet. I was going to anneal them every other firing, but I wanted to see how long they'd last first.

In my most recent loadings I've used the 350gr FNPB slugs from a Group Buy 6 cavity Lee that was done a couple years ago. They drop at .461". The grooves at the chamber are .465" deep, with a .433" bore. At the muzzle the grooves are .452/.454" and the bore remains .433".

..............Buckshot

[mikeym1a]

The range I use is an hour away from my house. There is the Isaac Walton League range, but you have to jump through hoops to use it. I have a place to shoot my pistols only about 500ft away, but, nowhere to shoot my rifles, other than the range. Used to be a lot of farmland around where one could shoot, but most of it has been cut up into subdivisions. Gotta go tomorrow and put another payment on a '95 Chilean Mauser, will be able to bring it home Apr 1. Once i leave there, I'll go to the two LGS's in the area and see about powder. If I feel really good, I may even go to my favorite tire store and see what he's got in the way of WW's. Been under the weather and house bound for a week. Getting cabin fever. Wish me luck! mikey

[mikeym1a]

I finally ID'd my rifle this morning. It is a 'Fusil d'Infanterie de la Garde Civique Mle 1882'. I saw several like it pictured, but mine is newer, according to the serial #, by some 5000. I have no Idea how many were made for the Belge Civil Guard. It was produced by the 'Syndicat Liegeois Armes de Guerre, which was made up of - Jules ANCION & Co., DRESSE, LALOUX & Co., Auguste FRANCOTTE., PIRLOT & FRESART.
Interesting stuff. Didn't show up until I looked up the 'Syndicat' cartouche that was stamped on the stock.
mikey

[pls1911]

You guys make me sick..... With envy.
Time will soon come when I will have access to time and tooling to create hard goods from creative thinking.
Your work is beautiful.